Records from 80s/90s that WILL/WON'T wear well...

[Pharaohrock]

10, 15, 20 years from now, which records will people still be talking about? Which records are going to truly pass the test of time? Which will merely recede to "common" stature?

AND- What records will have long-lasting value that never got a lot of hype? Conversely, which ones, despite any initial splash or critical plaudits, will people have forgotten?

What do you think?

FOR EXAMPLE, Will people still be talking about:

Ornette's discs with Geri?
"Momentum Space" (Cecil w/Elvin w/Dewey)
Keith Jarrett's trio records?
Wynton's "Blood on the Fields?"
Wynton Septet records?
Charles Lloyd ECM output?
Branford's last two...and/or the trio records?
Cassandra Wilson's "Blue Light Till Dawn" or Miles record?
Kenny Garrett, "Pursuance" and/or "Songbook"?
Greg Osby's BN output?
Steve Coleman's RCA discs?
Brad Mehldau Art of the Trio discs?
Joe Lovano BNs e.g. Landmarks, and w/Scofield...
Joe Lovano trio discs?
Ravi Coltrane's debut record (RCA)?
Joshua Redman WB output?
Michel Pettrucciani discs?
Wallace Roney "Quintet"?
Jason Moran's first recs?
Joe Henderson's Verve records?
Arthur Blythe Columbia recs from 80s?
Tony Williams band from 80s on BN?
Chick Corea Origin records?
The Gadd Gang?
The first "M-BASE" record?
Charlie Hunter, MMW?
Diana Krall recs?
Kurt Elling?
Any "Young Lion" records on BN or Verve?

This is obviously a suggested list for consideration that is geared towards the straight-ahead realm. Forgive my relative neglect of avant-garde records, not intentional- I just went with the stuff off the top of my mind ...Feel free to suggest any records that you believe either WILL or WILL NOT last the test of time.

[Coypu]

Don't slag me for this...

The album that I think will survive atleast 10 more years is Cynic - Focus, released 1993 and it was the only album ever released by the band. The music itself is death jazz so the fanbase is pretty limited since most people who like jazz hate death metal and very few who like death metal are into jazz so this album really isn't designed to be a big seller. It also have death metal vocals, female, male & robotic vocals so atleast one vocal style can be annoying for anyone. Despite all this the album have survived 9 years of media silence and still gain fans every day.

I think Atheist - Unquestionable presense will live a long time too since it has been sold out for years and people ask about where to get copies all the time and they have even been sold for over $50 for a used copy of the album so this one will stand the time.

Pestilence experimental album Spheres will and is almost forgotten by most people today. A great album but very weird and almost impossible to get into unless you really put an effort into it.

[clifton]

My interpretation of this thread: the best records of the past 20 years, and the most overrated, as well. I can't resist a good argument, so here's a few of my ideas. Sure to be classics: Dave Douglas, "The Infinite", "Soul On Soul". Dave Holland, "Prime Directive". Ornette Coleman, "Tone Dialing", "Sound Museum" (both CD's), Branford Marsalis, "Contemporary Jazz", Wayne Shorter, "Footprints Live". Henry Threadgill, "Just The Facts And Pass The Bucket". Muhal Richard Abrams, "Blu Blu Blu". Not-quite- classic but will wear well: Herbie Hancock, "Gershwin's World", Wynton Marsalis, "Black Codes (From The Underground)", Branford Marsalis, "Footsteps Of Our Fathers", Kenny Garrett, "Pursuance". Gathering Dust: Most of Wynton's extended pieces, jazzy jam bands like Scofield's "Uberjam" and most of Medeski, Martin and Wood. Also most of Miles Davis' 1980's music. The Pat Metheny-Ornette Coleman collaboration "Song X" will come to be recognized as one of the greatest jazz records of all time. This list isn't close to complete, but I hope it's plenty of fuel for the fIre.

[GA Russell]

I believe the following three from the mid-'90s will be selling twenty years from now. This is not a statement of their merit, but merely a prediction.

1) Michael Brecker - Tales From The Hudson
2) Miles Davis - Live Around The World
3) Diana Krall - All For You

[Saxano]

Well you cant forget about people like John Coltrane and Miles Davis.

[jazzypaul]

1) Coypu, I'm going to slag you for that because this is obviously a jazz intensive thread. Listen to some more jazz, then make an ON-TOPIC response. Where there are death metal threads, feel free to talk about death metal. But trust me, outside of yourself, and those of us who might have listened to what you've put up in other threads, no one knows who you're talking about, and furthermore, there's a good chance that nobody cares. Quit taking up bandwidth with this stuff.

2) Saxamo, unless I'm mistaken, Coltrane didn't release anything in the last 20 years, and the music that Davis made in the last 20 years, save for Tutu, is largely forgettable. Read the thread before posting, please.

3) I think people will be talking about some of Wynton's stuff, because of its wont to be so far reaching. I think, for example, that Blood on the Fields and In This House, On this Morning, will be talked about, if not purchased, in 20 years. Black Codes and his debut are already, I think, on many of my generations' must own lists. I hope the M-Base stuff stays in the lexicon, and I hope more people pick up on it, because it IS vital music. Songbook, I think will still be around because I still hold true to my claim that "Sing A Song of Song" and "November 15" are headed for standard-dom. I think MMW will still be talked about in another 20 years, because they almost singlehandedly made the organ trio popular again, along with Charlie Hunter. I think, outside of those two, we'll have forgotten about much of the jam-band friendly jazz bands out there now. Unfortunately, most of Arthur Blythe's stuff is out of print, making it very hard for it to be remembered. Sadly enough, the same can be said for Tony Williams' BN quintet, which is sad as can be, that stuff was GREAT. The Lovano/Scofield albums will remain, because those two made some very vital and very accesible music. I think Scofield himself will be talked about. Lovano, I dunno, so much. I think Dave Douglas, Chris Potter, Mark Turner, Kurt Rosenwinkel will all be seen for the genius that they are. If Dave Holland's quintet isn't talked about in 20 years, it only means that armegeddon has surely happened, and the process took all of the jazz fans off of the planet. Brad's art of the trio discs are a tough call. They were a call to arms to be sure. He did some very interesting things with standards on the live discs, and his choice of material for the studio discs was groundbreaking (first jazz guy that I know of to record a radiohead tune, which has spawned MANY MANY imitators).

If these guys aren't being talked about, I hope it's because some sort of major scale jazz revival has started and the stuff that's going on in 20 years is so insane that what's going on now isn't worth talking about. Considering the talent out there right now, that would be some incredible stuff to top. I can only hope it happens.

[Pharaohrock]

That is sad that the Tony Willams band stuff from the 80s is out of print. Any young musicians should have an opportunity to hear that band......possibly the best band of the 80s.

Again though, you have to question Blue Note's priorities as well as that of Joe Jazz buyer when they choose to reissue records like Lee Morgan's "Leeway" on RVG, a very average record at best, while leaving Tony Williams on the shelf.

[jazzypaul]

I know for a fact that this is what they do at Blue Note...

If it sells more than 500 copies per year, it's safe. Under 500, it goes out of print. CD's in the connoisseur series were supposed to be safe from that rule, but symphony for Improvisors by Don Cherry is long gone...

Honestly, I think that's about as fair as it gets. I wouldn't necessarily blame Blue Note as much as I'd blame the average record buyer who passes over a modern masterpiece like Telepathy by Bill Stewart in lieu of yet another Jazz for a...CD.

[Pharaohrock]

Supposedly Blue Note takes account of fan input as to what they should reissue next, so why don't we start a petition to have some or at least a couple of the best Tony Williams discs reissued? If we get 500 signatures, they can't possibly protest!

[jazzypaul]

This is true, and from a historical perspective alone, Foreign Intrigue should be in print. For those about to rock though, you need to hear Live in Tokyo. Awwwww shniggety!

[clifton]

Dave Douglas and Dave Holland will be ranked among the giants, although I consider them giants right now. Others destined for immortality: Joe Henderson "So Near So Far", Keith Jarrett "Outside In", Von Freeman "The Improvisor" and "Have No Fear", which is finally on CD, Hancock/Brecker/Hargrove "Directions In Music", Jason Moran "Black Stars", Andrew Hill "Dusk", and everything Henry Threadgill did with Air and with the sextet.

[jazzypaul]

Sorry, Clifton, but as a guy that listens to tons of Von Freeman, has hung and played with the man, I gotta say, The Improvisor was a huge dissapointment compared to his stuff on Steeplechase or Southport. The Improvisor suffered from people trying to do shit that was too hip for the tune. And I really think that album would have done better with more material featuring the NY rhythm section...

[Pharaohrock]

JP, actually my fave Tony Williams BN record is Angel Street....what flawlessly executed, wholly elegant and intense music. Billy Pierce's feature on "Pee Wee" is priceless, as is the Mulgrew solo that follows. Many other highlights as well....

And I can testify that this record got me through a very dark few months while I was working as an intern in D.C. and living in suburban hell Alexandria VA. I hate D.C.- what a cynical environment. I would listen to this record constantly/ it covers such a range of territory emotionally that it's one of those cathartic listens where you can sit down with one record and feel "complete" after having listened to it.

[jazzypaul]

Yeah, I know those "complete" records. Mine has always been Mingus at the Cafe Bohemia. Jump Monk just touches that spot that makes the rest of the world go away for 6 minutes or so. And that's the low point of the record...

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by Coypu
Don't slag me for this...

The album that I think will survive atleast 10 more years is Cynic - Focus, released 1993 and it was the only album ever released by the band. The music itself is death jazz so the fanbase is pretty limited since most people who like jazz hate death metal and very few who like death metal are into jazz so this album really isn't designed to be a big seller. It also have death metal vocals, female, male & robotic vocals so atleast one vocal style can be annoying for anyone. Despite all this the album have survived 9 years of media silence and still gain fans every day.

I think Atheist - Unquestionable presense will live a long time too since it has been sold out for years and people ask about where to get copies all the time and they have even been sold for over $50 for a used copy of the album so this one will stand the time.

Pestilence experimental album Spheres will and is almost forgotten by most people today. A great album but very weird and almost impossible to get into unless you really put an effort into it.

Coypu,

I remember f.i. Dutch metal band Pestilence and they are indeed experimental and a lot of metal mucisians play very well. Maybe bands like Pestilence put some jazz influences in their music, but they simply don't play jazz. The Velvet Underground is f.i. also influenced by free jazz musicians like Albert Ayler and John Coltrane, but everyone on this board will agree The Velvet Underground is not a jazz band.

[lazy bird]

Coypu,

If you want to discuss both metal and jazz, I'll suggest you to visit the Frank Zappa board.

http://www.zappa.com/spifnificent.html

[ADR]

Here are some highlights of the 80s/90s that will stand the test of time IMO:


George Adams/Don Pullen - "Live at the Village Vanguard" (Soul Note)

Ben Allison - "Third Eye", "Riding the Nuclear Tiger" (Palmetto)

Fred Anderson - "Two Days in April" (Eremite)

Gary Bartz - "There Goes the Neighborhood" (Candid)

Paul Bley - "Bebop" (Steeplechase), "Not Two, Not One" (ECM)

John Carter - "Dauwhe" (Black Saint), "Dance of the Love Ghosts" (Gramavision)

DKV Trio - "Live in Wels and Chicago" (Okka Disk)

Dave Douglas - "Charms of the Night Sky" (Winter and Winter), "In Our Lifetime" (New World/Countercurrents), "

Marty Ehrlich - "Can You Hear a Motion", "New York Child" (Enja)

Ellery Eskelin - the trio recordings for Hat: "Kulak 29 & 30", "Five Other Pieces + 2", etc. (Hatology)

Art Farmer - "Blame it On My Youth" (Contemporary)

Kenny Garrett - "Triology", "Pursuance" (Warner Bros.)

Don Grolnick - "The Complete Blue Note Recordings"

Joe Henderson - "The State of the Tenor" (Blue Note), "So Near, So Far" (Verve)

Andrew Hill - "Shades" (Soul Note)

Dave Holland - "Jumpin' In", "The Razor's Edge" and the other 80s' ECMs

Keith Jarrett - "The Complete Live at the Blue Note" (ECM)

Steve Lacy - "Morning Joy: Live at the Sunset Paris" (hatArt)

Joe Lovano - "From the Soul", "Trio Fascination" (Blue Note)

Masada - "Live in Jerusalem 1994" (Tzadik)

Branford Marsalis - "Requiem" (Columbia)

Wynton Marsalis - "Black Codes", "Live at Blues Alley" (Columbia)

Brad Mehldau - the "Art of the Trio" series (Warner Bros.)

Myra Melford - "Even the Sounds Shine" (hatArt)

Pat Metheny - "Trio Live" (Warner Bros.)

Mulgrew Miller - "Hand in Hand", "With Our Own Eyes" (Novus)

Paul Motian - "Bill Evans" (JMT), "Sounds of Love" (JMT/Winter and Winter)

David Murray - "Ming", "The Hill" (Black Saint)

Simon Nabatov - "Tough Customer" (Enja)

Greg Osby - "Banned in New York" (Blue Note)

William Parker - "The Peach Orchard" (Aum Fidelity)

Don Pullen - "New Beginnings" (Blue Note)

Joshua Redman - "Moodswing" (Warner Bros.)

John Scofield - "Meant to Be", "Time On My Hands" (Blue Note)

Woody Shaw - "Solid" (Muse/32Jazz)

Matthew Shipp - "Multiplication Table" (hatHUT)

Horace Tapscott - "The Dark Trees: Vol. I & II" (Hatology)

Henry Threadgill - "Spirit of Nuff...Nuff" (Black Saint)

Vandermark 5 - "Acoustic Machine" (Atavistic)

Mal Waldron - "The Seagulls of Kristiansund", "The Git Go" (Soul Note)

David S. Ware - "Flight of I" (DIW), "Wisdom of Uncertainty" (Aum Fidelity)

Bobby Watson - "Present Tense", "Midwest Shuffle" (Columbia)

[Pharaohrock]

That's a pretty thoughtful list. Thank you. I'd add:

Blanchard/Harrison: Black Pearls
Mulgrew Miller: Hand in Hand, Countdown
Tony Williams: Live in Tokyo, Angel Street, et al!
Geri Allen/Charlie Haden: Montreal tapes
Steve Nelson: New Beginnings
James Willams: Progress Report
Frisell/Motian/Lovano- at the Vanguard
Larry Goldings: Caminhos Cruzados, Whatever it Takes

[jazzypaul]

HOOOOOOO! Nice lists...may I critque them? Why thank you!

ADR...Damn!! Great list. Now, these are my quibbles with it...

Fred Anderson: Two Days In April. Considering his far more visceral work with the DKV Trio on Okka disc, and his commercially viable work on Delmark, Two Days in April, which is hard as hell to find, even for a music junkie/jazz dj in his hometown, will be forgotten, much like the live Stevie Wonder album for Motown in 1968. Amazing music, but if nobody can find it, no one can remember it fondly.

Dave Douglas: Add the Infinite. The album that I am sure broke him wide open to a much larger audience, and the album that really made jaws drop.

Art Farmer: Didn't make any vital music past the late 1960's, if even that far. Considering the musical advances made in spite of the young lions movement, this one is a joke. Don't get me wrong, I love Art, I got a chance to see him a few times. But as far as lasting music goes, Art is a man of the 60's.

Kenny Garrett: gotta add songbook. Sing a Song of Song will be a standard. Just ask every damn band with musicians under 30 that's playing it. By the time we're all 50, it'll be mentioned in the same breath with Bye Bye Blackbird and Surrey with the Fringe on top.

Andrew Hill: Sadly, and I say very sadly, see Art Farmer. Except Andrew is making vital music that no one is listening to. Again. Great music that no one hears is kinda like no music at all. Put that music that no one is hearing on a label like Soul Note, that doesn't even have US distribution, and well, you may as well not even release it at all.

Branford: Why Requiem? Because it was Kenny Kirkland's last record? It's pale compared to The Dark Keys. It's alright, but Branford's earlier work was more interesting, and more crackling with energy.

Scofield: Gotta add A Go Go and Uberjam to that list. Those two albums destroyed the wall between jam-bands and jazz. And made great music in the process.

And for Dave Holland, you need to add the Quintet albums of the late 90's and the new millenium. Those albums are not only some amazing jazz, but also have broken Dave to a mainstream audience that may very well have only viewed him as another Miles Davis footnote.

Sorry.

[ADR]

Here's my critique to your critique:

Two Days in April: Fred Anderson has already been re-discovered as an artist of importance in his twilight years. Fortunately, this has allowed him to record extensively over the last decade. Because the major labels (for the most part) are concentrating on re-issuing jazz instead of developing innovative new music - I believe that the major labels will eventually purchase the back catalogues of today's independent labels and reissue works by important artists like Anderson. IMO "Two Days April" will some day be re-issued by Verve/GRP, Blue Note/EMI, Warner Bros., Columbia/Sony, etc.

The Infinite: I thought we were discussing albums from the 80s and 90s. I do love "The Infinite" though - it's one of my top ten of 2002.

Art Farmer: All I can say is that a lot of people disagree with you -especially with regards to this one album. Farmer experienced a renaissance with Contemporary in his later years comparable to what Joe Henderson did with Verve IMO.

Kenny Garrett: I like "Songbook" too and could have easily included it in place of either of the other two I listed.

Andrew Hill: In my experience, "Shades" is widely acknowledged amongst jazz fans as being one of Andrew Hill's best works - right up there with his seminal work for Blue Note in the 60's. As for availability - see Fred Anderson above. The fact that "Shades" may or may not be OOP at any point in time is less important than the fact that it has a heavy reputation amongst a large number of jazzheads (the unavailability of a legendary session can actually add to its mystique amongst hardcore jazz fans)

Requiem: I choose "Requiem" because IMO Branford's last two quartet records for Columbia were the finest work he has ever done. "Requiem" just makes it in in under the wire as a 90s recording and "Contemporary Jazz" doesnt qualify since it was recorded and released in the 21st century.

Scofield: I just disagree with you here plain and simple.

Dave Holland: "Prime Directive" and "Not for Nothin'" which were made in the 21st century will both overshadow "Dreams of the Elders" (late 90s) IMO. That is why I didn't include Holland's current quintet. It started in the late 90's - but didn' reach its artistic pinnacle until the 00's IMO.

ADR

[jazzypaul]

Here's my take on your thoughts, ADR...

1) Anything that I mentioned that was made in the 00's that I mentioned, fair enough, I missed the boat on that.

2) As for Fred Anderson, let's face it, the Big guys are putting out LESS adventurous re-issues. Secondly, if I was one of the big guys, I'm not going to be worrying about labels like Atavistic or Eremite when their records sell maybe 1000 copies. Labels like Delmark are easy pickings, if Koester wanted to sell. After all, there is a built in market for Delmark's jazz AND blues catalogs. But Atavistic, Okka disc and others are all bound to be cult labels. Or to put it this way: How much great music has come out on Steeplechase or Black Lion? Now, how much of that music actually gets talked about? Exactly.

Art Farmer: I hope I'm wrong.

And Requiem was good. Solidly good. But The Dark Keys was both good and shocking. People said nice things about Requiem, but The Dark Keys had jaws hitting the floor.

As for Scofield, WHY do you disagree? If it's simply because you're too much of a snob to get into music with a groove, well, that's immaterial. It's not a list of albums that YOU'LL be listening to in 20 years, it's a list of albums that will STILL be listened to in 20 years. Those two albums may very well be gateway albums for a lot of young jazz fans. From the size and number of people at the last couple of Sco shows I've been to, that would certainly seem to be the case.

As for the Hill record, a heavy reputation only does you good if people can hear the record. I think Soul Note has a far better chance of being bought out and redistributed than any of the Chicago free jazz labels, though.


ADR, I'm enjoying this. You seem to know what you're talking about, which is great. Feel free to keep this going...

[omar zamora]

I hope that Thomas Chapin's 'Sky Piece" (at least) gets remembered 20 years from now.

ADR has already mentioned quite a few good ones that might be remembered. "The Dark Tree" is one of my favorite recordings, but I wonder how many jazz fans will know about Hat Hut 20 years from now. Not many do now. Shame, really.

[ADR]

Omar:

"Sky Piece" is a great suggestion - wish I had thought to include it on my list.


JazzyPaul:

Thanks for the kind words - you obviously know what you are talking about and I have also enjoyed this exchange.

1) Fred Anderson - You make a good point about Steeplechase and Black Lion. Perhaps we have reached a point in the post-modern era of jazz where the quality of a recording is not sufficient to assure its place in the canon and certain indie recordings are destined to languish in obscurity in spite of their musical excellence (of course this has probably always been the case to a certain but IMO lesser extent). You may be right and I might be deluding myself with regards to the esteem with which I believe Fred Anderson's body of work will be held in twenty years. However, your objections re: the obscurity and difficulty of obtaining "Two Days in April" applies equally to many of the other selections on my list recorded for obscure indie labels. As Omar pointed out, are people more likely to be familiar with the Hat recordings of say Ellery Eskelin and Horace Tapscott than "Two Days in April"? Why are you focusing on the obscurity of "Two Days in April" - do you really believe it is that much more obscure than many others on my list?

2) Art Farmer - I hope you're wrong too ;)

3) Branford Marsalis - Your praise of "Dark Keys" has made me want to go back and re-examine it. I'll have to do this sometime in the next month or so.

4) Scofield - Scofield's groove material leaves me cold and (at the risk of opening a huge can of worms) I'm not even sure that it is even jazz (not that there's anything wrong with that). I have nothing against jazz with a heavy groove - I like a lot of funky hard bop, soul jazz, and jazz-funk (Joe McPhee, Spaceway's Inc., etc.). I see from some of your other posts that you are a big proponent of "jam-band" music (i.e. MM&W, Charlie Hunter, etc.). While this music is interesting and I can certainly appreciate the skill and passion of the musicians involved - its just not one of my favorites as a matter of personal preference. We can't all like everything.

5) Soul Note/Black Saint has been around for a while now and the ones I mention on my list (including "Shades") are still being listened to and talked about. In my experience as a frequent lurker and sometime contributor to jazz Bulletin Boards like the Blue Note BBS, Jazz Corner, and this one - if you start a thread asking for recommendations of Andrew Hill's best recordings post 60's Blue Note, "Shades" is at the top of most people's lists. Also, there has been a resurgence of interest in Hill due to the prominence of some of the younger more prominent musicians with greater exposure like Greg Osby and Jason Moran who have been quick to cite Hill as a major influence on their careers (Osby, of course, played in one of Hill's group and included him on his own "Invisible Hand" recording).

ADR

[Coypu]

Originally posted by lazy bird
Coypu,

I remember f.i. Dutch metal band Pestilence and they are indeed experimental and a lot of metal mucisians play very well. Maybe bands like Pestilence put some jazz influences in their music, but they simply don't play jazz. The Velvet Underground is f.i. also influenced by free jazz musicians like Albert Ayler and John Coltrane, but everyone on this board will agree The Velvet Underground is not a jazz band.

I would call pestilence last album for Fusion, it doesn't sound like anything in death metal and there is plenty of jazz in it. Tribal Tech have heavier songs than them so they belong in fusion and therefor in this forum.

If you guys don't beleive me then listen to this song (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/pestilence%20-%20Personal%20Energy.mp3)

atheist (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Atheist%20-%20Elements%20%5b1993%5d/atheist%20-%20samba%20briza.mp3)

Cynic (http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/SeanTextures.mp3)

Coypu,

If you want to discuss both metal and jazz, I'll suggest you to visit the Frank Zappa board.


I'm not really a Zappa fan so I would feel out of place there.

[Pharaohrock]

I'm reminded of one of the reasons i first found jazz so attractive; no more silly or otherwise trifling lyrics getting in the way of the music....

[jazzypaul]

Pharaoh,

I guess you've never heard Jon Hendricks' lyrics to Freddie Freeloader then, eh?

[GA Russell]

Point of order!

As the fellow who resurrected this thread, I'm going to raise an issue here. The premise of the thread is that people will still be talking years from now about records of the 80s and 90s which have withstood the test of time.

I don't for a moment challenge anyone's tastes. However, if I (for one) have never heard of an album that is already ten or fifteen years old and on a small label, recorded by a guy who has never moved up to a major label, I suggest that there is no reason to think that anyone will be buying it fifteen years from now. No matter how much you might like it.

I propose that if a record has never been found at Borders, it will be lost down the memory hole.

I see a parallel from the 50s. Miles and Monk recorded for Prestige in the 50s and moved up to Columbia in the 60s; and today there is interest in both labels' recordings.

I can expect to see interest in Tom Harrell's Contemporary recordings as well as his RCA, and in Bill Charlap's Criss Cross recordings as well as his EMI.

Can anyone make similar predictions regarding early small label work by artists who have grown in popularity over the past fifteen years?

[jazzypaul]

In order for someone's work on Criss Cross to be yeaned for by the general public, it has to be made available to the public. Criss Cross' distribution is so bad that we could stop the spread of AIDS by letting them handle it...

[Pharaohrock]

GA- yeah, some of the Muse and Landmark sides cut by cats like Wallace Roney, Vincent Herring, Mulgrew, Lonnie Plaxico...

[clifton]

Some thoughts: Andrew Hill. I think "Dusk" and "A Beautiful Day" are classics in the making. In 2023, they will be regarded as essential components of a serious jazz collection. If this occurs because Palmetto has better distribution than Soul Note, then so be it. Branford Marsalis. As much as I like "Requiem" and "Dark Keys", I think "Contemporary Jazz" is the most forward-looking and fully realized of Branford's recent outings, and that's the one that will be most highly regarded in the future. Jam bands and jazz-funk. Scofield, MMW, Soulive, etc. are making solid music, substance and depth with a beat. If we must have a label, call it "groove jazz". But I don't see the jam bands being regarded as highly as Ornette or Bird. Good music, yes. Future classic, I don't believe so.

[GA Russell]

Great suggestions all!

Pharoah, I'm excited about Denon's purchase of the Muse and Landmark catalogues. I bet there are a number of great sessions which will be brought to the public's attention for the first time.

[3pointdeli]

most (or all) of the zorn/masada releases will hold up.

did i already mention sonny sharrock's "ask the ages"? even though it's out of print, it'll come back and be hanging in there come 2050.

[clifton]

I bought "Ask The Ages" six years ago and believe me, it has stood the test of time. I still listen to it regularly and I'm sure it will be regarded as a classic, if it isn't already.

[jazzypaul]

Clfton, re: the jam band remarks, keep this in mind...Ramsey Lewis and Vince Guaraldi are both well known today, not for their virtuosic work which they were more than capable of, but rather, for overly simplistic tunes which resonated with generations of people from all different backgrounds. Just because you may think less of it than Bird or Trane, if Scofield's or MMW's work brought even one granola eating hippie over to our side, it deserves to be remembered. Being that I've seen 2 and 3 thousand capacity rooms PACKED by these bands, I can only say that if we don't remember them, then we are truly snobs that deserve to lose our music to the smooth jazzers and Britney Spears' of the world.

[3pointdeli]

"I propose that if a record has never been found at Borders, it will be lost down the memory hole."

GA, you've lost the fight.

maybe you've heard of the internet. record stores are disgracefully out of touch with music. i'll admit that i buy a fair amount of music from borders (99% of which are blue note rvg reissues), but i could not disagree with your comments more. don't allow the music buyer at borders to choose what will hold up and what won't. that's just sad, man...really.

[Pharaohrock]

Borders has "buyers"- actually one main buyer, who does all the ordering for jazz that is stocked in their stores. By no means is this person an omniscient being, so there's bound to be things that are overlooked in their selection. Plus, they've been scaling back for a while now...

[GA Russell]

3point and Pharoah,

Borders stocks EVERY jazz album that sells (by jazz standards, miniscule though that sales total may be) and hundreds that don't. (Don't agree? Name a popular album Borders has never carried.) Tower Records stores, for one example, carry an even better selection, but Tower is a chain of only a few stores, while Borders has over 200 stores throughout the US.

So the scenario you suggest is that there are albums now ten to fifteen years old which have generated so little interest in all that time that not even Borders has EVER carried them, but twenty years from today people will be buying them.

1) Please give an example.

2) Please describe the scenario you have in mind which will cause the jazz public to take an interest in a thirty to forty-five year old album which failed to cause a buzz in its first fifteen years of existence.

3) Can you give an example of an album currently generating enthusiasm among jazz fans that failed to do so in its first fifteen years?

And 3point, your snide attitude ("lost the fight (what fight?), maybe you've heard of the internet...") makes you look like an idiot.

[clifton]

Jazzypaul: Re jam band music: ultimately, too much of it amounts to jamming on one chord or an ostinato. But I never said it wasn't good music or that I didn't like it. But I think Andrew Hill and Dave Douglas will have staying power, and, while the jam bands are popular (this is a good thing), I question whether we will hold Phish and Dave Douglas in equal regard in 2023. BTW this is a gut reaction and it may be based on personal aesthetics but how many improvising rock bands from the 1970's are still listened to today? I will concede the point entirely if you listen to "Lark's Tongues In Aspic" or "Three Of A Perfect Pair" on a regular basis. And I sincerely apologize if you take this as anything more than spirited debate; disrespect was never my intention.

[jazzypaul]

Clifton, I would never call this any more than a spirited debate. And, really, I'm not talking about proficiency. Again, I bring up The In Crowd or Linus and Lucy. Two tunes that even I, as the drummer, have played on piano whilst completely drunk at parties. Remember, its albums that we'll remember in 20 years, not necessarily albums that we'll tout as the greatest thing ever in 20 years. Because there's no way that I'd say that. But, as records that maybe brought a lot of people into the jazz fold, that deserves respect. That's what I'm trying to say. Jazz ambassadors, like Diz, Ramsey, Guaraldi, Scofield and Metheny all seem to take heat, even though they're making music that deserves to be heard. That isn't exactly fair. But history has proven the critics wrong on the ambassadors every time. Ramsey still sells respectably, Linus and Lucy is the only straight ahead jazz that many people know, Metheny's been doing quite alright for years, and Sco is selling out rock halls. I'd say, that's worth remembering...

[clifton]

Jazzypaul: Points well taken. I still don't know that we'll be listening to "Uberjam" in 20 years, although MMW and Karl Denson might have some staying power. Keep in mind, however, that "Linus And Lucy" is very catchy music, easily remembered. Jam band music doesn't seem to have many hooks. Here's a point to consider: Ornette Coleman's "Dee Dee" was instrumental in luring one of my children into jazz. He heard "Dee Dee" when he was three and got hooked. A lot of Ornette's tunes have hooks and I have to speculate if songs like "Dee Dee", "The Good Life", "European Echoes", etc. might serve as a way to introduce young children to jazz. I know it worked at least twice (both my kids like jazz, thank God).

[3pointdeli]

unfortunately, i don't know much about jazz in the '80s, but a few artists that were active in the '90s (and still are) that i think will be remembered for their strong bodies of work will be:

ken vandermark

nels cline (the nels cline trio was his main '90s group. he was on some releases from the '80s i think, but not as a leader.)

the lounge lizards (particularly their most recent release "the queen of all ears." they, too, were active in the '80s. they don't seem to be very active now, but i'm sure they'll be back.)

[3pointdeli]

someone made this comment several days ago (sorry, i forgot to look who the poster was, no disrespect intended):

"I propose that if a record has never been found at Borders, it will be lost down the memory hole."

i thought about that today when i read this article (PLEASE read it, and pass it along if you like):


"http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,46334,00.html"

considering the information in this article, it's pretty clear that jazz (and many other things that are worthwhile) WILL DIE if the above comments turn out to be true.

shop smart, folks.

[GA Russell]

3point, you might have hit the bullseye with Ken Vandermark.

I'll let others weigh in on what they think of his music.

I think his nomination has the ring of truth because he is one name who keeps coming up among people I know who really like him, but to my knowledge his albums are not found at Borders!!!!

By the way, I have no axe to grind about Borders per se. As far as I know, they will carry anything they can sell. I don't think they fail to carry something (other than imports) because of poor distribution. I believe if it's not in stock, Borders will special order for you anything you can get from Amazon. My point was merely that Borders' radar is so low, that I can't imagine an album flying below their radar which will take off later on. How's that for a metaphor!