BBC Radio 3 Henry Red Allen

[peter rh]

This Friday18th April in the Jazz Legends series Henry Red Allen.
The usual 4pm UK time(BST) also available on playback - links:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/playlists/2003aprjun/jazzleg0315.shtml
and for playback:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/jazz/jazzlegends.shtml

[BeRiGaN]

Originally posted by peter rh
This Friday18th April in the Jazz Legends series Henry Red Allen.
The usual 4pm UK time(BST) also available on playback - links:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/playlists/2003aprjun/jazzleg0315.shtml
and for playback:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/jazz/jazzlegends.shtml
Thanks for the heads up! Wish NPR or anyone else cared about jazz on radio in this country! (A bit unfair, I know-there are some smaller stations)
Now, if I can only remember to tune in! At least I can play it back!

[Andy D]

It is not that different in the UK mainly one station will play some Jazz stuff, mostly in between classical stuff but that is as good as it gets.

One of the difficulties Jazz has is accessability, in my part of the UK few records shops sell Jazz CD's etc. Few programmes are on TV about Jazz. There is a 'dedicated' station Jazz FM, but it is hard to find the type of Jazz that I prefer on this station.

I recall talking to my eldest son (13) about John Coltrane, I was listening to Mr PC at the time, and he informed me " Dad no one listens to Jazz!" and preceded to show me an article out of some magazine, that took a survey of what kids listen to.

Well you guessed it Jazz was at the bottom at least this made my son laugh :)

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

BBC jazz coverage is considerably better than it was a few years back. The current Radio 3 controller is much more sympathetic to jazz and world music than his predecessors.

Having said that the priority given to classical music (and opera in particular...if they're doing Wagner on a Saturday you can forget your jazz slot!) still rankles. A survey done by Jazz Services a few years back demonstrated jazz and opera to have similar sized audiences. The trouble is that there arn't many jazz fans amongst the politicians and civil service mandarins who make the decisions.

I notice the 6.00 documentary slot on Radio 3 on Saturdays has a a jazz guitar set of programmes starting with Charlie Christian from Saturday.

[Andy D]

Bev.

You make some very interesting points and you are right, in that R3 is now much better than it used to be. But overall the output across the stations is poor and the 'Ring Cycle' will always take the stage over Jazz.

One of my other loves is Rugby, I still play and am a big follower of Rugby League. Now there is a RL Parlimentary group that supports the sport, against the more establishment orientated Rugby Union. Perhaps this is what is needed for Jazz, the irony is that some types of Jazz are growing in popularity and people attend concerts, and yet this is not reflected in all forms of media.

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

What I'd love to see is a station devoted to non-mainstream music (not classical, though there'd inevitably be an overlap). I'm sure the UK would not miss one 'Classic Gold' or 'Hits' station just to allow the jazz, world, folk, country and whatever a place to go. I think I'd actually prefer this to a 24 hour jazz station.

The Radio 3 model is excellent - live concerts, record reviews, special documentaries etc. Just extend it to other musics.

The key for me is to have presenters who are passionate about the music they play. The success of a programme like Late Junction lies in the fact that you have presenters who are more interested in talking about the music than establishing themselves as celebraties. I also like the mix of a programme like that - you know you're going to like some things on it; but you are constantly ambushed by music you would never have dreamed of listening to.

This is how I remember late-night rock radio on the BBC in the early 70s.

[Andy D]

I think R3 does the best it can within the constraints it has to be mainly a classical music radio station. It covers world music as well as anyone, and sometimes R2 has some world music stuff.

I like the idea of a non-pop, non classical station I guess it depends on how commercial this would be? Jazz seems to get little exposure, young people for instance almost never get a chance to hear any Jazz and that limits its the commercial potential of such a radio station.

I have been to Finland a few times and on their radio stations for example, they do have jazz music as well as artists like Wimmi and other Finnish and world music. The success of Cuban music shows what can be done if it is opened up to a wider audience, without Ry Cooder going to Cuba and tracking down the singers, we may have never had the Buena Vista Club!

Regards

Andy D.

[sidewinder]

Anyone seen that BBC 'Jazz 625' show originally from 1964ish with Red Allen featured with Alex Welsh and his band. Great stuff - and Red comes across as one heck of a character. No microphones required on that performance !

[Bev Stapleton]

Yes Andy,

What few of the decision makers seem to realise is that if you give people the chance to hear unusual music they will frequently latch onto it.

Sadly the norm is for something out of the ordinary to catch on and, instead of deciding 'Let's try some other out of the ordinary things' they decide 'Let's bombard the airwaves with 1001 examples of that same genre.' Which means everyone loses interest!

I agree abbout R3. It does a fine job...though one based on some fundamental cultural preconceptions of what is 'important' (i.e. Bach is infinitely more important than Blakey!).

[Andy D]

I think you made the point Bev that Jazz has no real champion to talk and shout about its merits, ( unless you include Ken Clarke talking about 'Kind Of Blue' ) and we have many that talk about classical music in a very establishment orientated way.

Now I like classical music very much, but feel the radio stations fail to understand a key public role, to provide for a cross section of musical taste. I am convinced that Jazz would be listened to by people, if it was played and accessible and had the same coverage as classical music does.

For me Blakey is as great a musician as Bach and Davis as great a genius as Mozart!

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

I think its rather more scandalous than that.

The BBC is funded as a public broadcasting service yet favours one particular minority music over others.

In reality Radio 3 should be carved up amongst the various minority musics. When the air space becomes available, then a largely classical station is appropriate. But for as long as there is rationing there really should be a fairer distribution.

I too love classical music - I listen to jazz more frequently.

[Andy D]

Digital radio makes for more possibilities and will offer people more possibilities, but we come back to the point you made earlier that who is the 'champion' of Jazz?

It would be possible to have a dedicated Jazz digital radio station or at least one combined with world music (still more jazz), but to get this people need to advocate for this. In reality a radical controller is needed in R3, to do what you suggest and 'take-on' those who advocate that classical music is more 'valid', more important etc than Jazz.

The BBC produce specific magazines for classical music, often giving away CD's what can this not be done for Jazz?

Regards

Andy D.

[peter rh]

Jazz fans in Britain have been critical of BBC for as long as I can
remember and I don't expect that to suddenly change.
We now have more BBC radio jazz than ever during my lifetime,
but some obviously want more, and there is nothing wrong with
that situation.What more people could do is to provide the BBC
with feedback, even encouragement about the programmes that
presently exist.All the programmes have links to provide feedback
and the only type of thing they don't wish to hear (I'm guessing)
is a demand for artist xyz to have their own one hour slot.
I don't listen to every jazz programme on BBC and I'm not too
sure that many do,but obviously the more programmes the
more likely that the range will be wide enough to interest most.

[Andy D]

I take your point Peter that there is more than in the past, but for me it is about equity is opera really that much more listened to than Jazz?

R3 is a public radio station and I think it should reflect this, if you take the number of people that attend Jazz concerts for example, there is a wide interest in Jazz and yet I am one of those who would like to see more Jazz on the radio.

Regards

Andy D.

[Munch]

I listen in when I can to Radio 3 and 2 jazz programmes, including some classical, and also Late Junction that, as Bev stated, ambushes me into listening to other marvellous ethnic musical sounds that I would otherwise have ignored, or never had a chance of hearing elsewhere.
Might be of interest, that, as for jazz on Radio 3, I recall two years ago doing battle with a radio reviewer on a Sunday newspaper who procaimed that his ambition was to rid Radio 3 of 'all that hated jazz music'. He maintained that Radio 3 should more or less be the domain of classical music and nothing else, and jazz should be confined to Radio 2. He is always very scathing of the 'hated jazz music'. This diatribe he was printing prompted many jazz inclined readers to tell him how they felt, but he has his mind set, and closed, and it seems that he will make a comeback on this theme again in the future. Journalists like this have this 'deserved' freedom of speech, but this can be misused by giving them a platform to shout out their own personal pet opinions and dislikes. The power of the media can be dangerously effective in such matters. We must be be both vigilant and active folks, the battle must go on in our attempt to turn the tide in our favour. Long live jazz (a lot!), classical, and other musical outlets of creativity on Radio 3.

[Andy D]

Munch.

You make some very good points and diversity should always be encouraged, I cannot help thinking though that classical music is too closely assocated with the 'establishment' and Jazz is seen as something not quite of the same quality. Now perhaps I am seeing things through 'rose coloured glasses', but the lack of serious coverage on Jazz within all types of media is not healthy for the music.

Freedom of speech should always be encouraged and supported, and Jazz has always struggled to be taken seriously within some circles.

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

I wonder how many of the 'establishment' who champion classical music really care for it. You get the sense sometimes that associating themselves with chamber music or opera is part of their portfolio, helping their image onto other things. Or am I being too cynical?

Peter is very right about feedback to the BBC, something I must do more of. I don't believe for a minute that there is a conspiracy against jazz (and the other minority musics)...just a a blindness. Maybe we need to make our presence felt more often. And couch our irritations in praise of what the BBC are doing well (and between BBC Radio 2 and 3 there is a great deal of good...it just needs to go further).

I too bombarded the BBC a few years back, just before Roger Wilson took over, with just the sort of arguments we're making here. I had a letter published in Folk Roots (and won a CD!!!) on this issue and got an e-mail from someone inside the BBC saying that change was afoot and that my e-mails were being read and talked about. Now I'm not claiming they changed anything...just pointing out that comments we send do get noticed.

There's an interesting paragraph in the latest jazz UK pointing out that the Arts Council now calls music like jazz, Asian, Latin, African, Folk, Urban etc 'Contemporary Diverse Music'. Sounds a bit like 'Odds'n Sods' to me! The article refers to increase in jazz funding...though, of course, not on the scale of classical music (proper culture!).

Anyone listen to JazzFM? I've only been able to receive it since I got Freeview on the TV. I've heard little but criticism of it with only Mike Chadwick's programme getting a positive mention. I have to say the couple of times I've tuned into the latter it has sounded like that 'chill out' music that seems popular in the contemporary pop/rock world. I gave up after an hour! But Jazz UK suggests that the station is being forced to up its jazz content. If anyone knows of a good time to listen I'd be interested.

Those of you who listen online and are not aware of it should listen to Bebop to Hiphop on Radio Scotland (archived for a week like most programmes now). In fact Radio Scotland has some great programmes all round!

[Andy D]

I suspect that there are some who see classical music as part of some kind of image, so opera, classical music is very much part of this image. It is interesting to note that when opera appears in the cities and counties, it is accompanied with lots of gloss and imagery and very expensive tickets!

Part of the 'problem' is that Jazz is seen as an interest of a select few, and yet classical music is not and I am curious as to why this is?

Culture in the UK is often defined by tradition and Jazz, in some people's eyes, has less of a tradition than classical and opera music but is this not reflective of the history of Jazz?

Jazz FM, in my view is very poor what started with great potential has ended up like a copy of the Economist. all gloss and little substance :D It is like buying one of those double CD's of 'Late night Jazz', which for me is not a positive expereince. Just look at the ablums it produces!

What we need to do is what Peter suggest write to R3 and suggest an alternative agenda!

Regards

Andy D.

[peter rh]

In contacting the BBC Radio 2/3 or whatever I am not suggesting
you alter your eventual aim.I feel that the BBC is almost immune
to a certain type of criticism about what they don't do,or include.
What we have at present may not be exactly what we require,
but that may always be the case.In the past the message has
been divided because the different factions(only polite way to
describe?)wish to exert their own views.
I don't think the BBC are dumb, they do know that some jazz fans have a very narrow interest in jazz.It should be easier to
change what we have than try to start afresh

[Bev Stapleton]

Here's an odd one in the discussion of the differing fortunes of jazz and classical musicians.

This months BBC Music Magazine has an article on composers and their gardens. Robin Holloway, Harrison Birtwistle, John Tavener are pictured against a backdrop of gorgeous gardens and fine properties.

How on earth do they afford these? I don't see their CDs up there for sale alongside Robbie and Britney!

[Andy D]

That is the establishment for you!

These guys are paid fortunes to do what they do, sign very lucrative contracts with big record companies and yet how many people but their records?

I was in a W H Smith branch today, they now have a classical music chart in full view of all who want to see. Where is the Jazz one? Perhaps their sales are disproportionate to what they actually get.

I happen to like choral music very much and yet I cannot see how Palestrina is any more popular than Oscar Peterson! And yet
some would have us believe that it is!

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

The mad thing is there is virtually no Robin Holloway available on CD. I've kept meaning to explore him - I like the idea of his neo-neo-Romanticism and enjoyed a Violin Concerto I heard by him on the radio a few years back. He has a list of compositions as long as your arm. Yet only a handful of available recordings.

Presumably his teaching at Cambridge pays well.

[Andy D]

You know I was walking through the living room this evening, while my wife and eldest son watch TV. Now on this particular drama programme there was a scene in which a young women was playing a classical piece of music on the violin, while someone watched and listened to the wonderful music.

But this got me thinking why was it not Jazz that she was playing? How many programmes have scenes in which classical music is involved and not Jazz? Is this part of the media conspiracy against Jazz?

Regards

Andy D.

[Lazaro Vega]

When the BBC let go Alyn Shipton I wrote them twice and never heard back. Shipton's program, and the interviews he did for the BBC that were subsequently turned into books, was as good as it gets. No explaination has been forthcoming as to why he was dropped. Too bad for jazz, and too bad for the BBC.

In Michigan you can hear jazz on public radio from Detroit to Traverse City. In Grand Rapids there are two stations broadcasting more than 40 hours of jazz per week. You could listen to the station I work for ( see www.bluelake.org , but there's no streaming as we're located in the Manistee National Forest) and right about the place we fade out as you go south along the Lake Michigan shoreline you'll pick up WBEZ (which isn't what it used to be, but is still a jazz format) out of Chicago. That is if you're driving at night.

Now, with the internet, there's really no excuse for not hearing jazz radio in your home, at least: WBGO, WEMU, many others stream their signals. Personally I find the best way to listen to the radio is with a radio (better sound, more freedom of movement), but various jazz signals are reaching a global audience for the first time ever....2 cents....

[Phil Meloy]

Hi Lazaro,

I know about WGVU who broadcast out of Grand Rapids but what's the other station? Are you refering to your own WBLU 88.9 FM?

[Lazaro Vega]

Hi Phil,
Yes. Blue Lake broadcasts on 90.3 FM at 100,000 watts which covers a tremendous area, but Grand Rapids is in a river valley, as the name implies, and since that is the primary population area on the west side of the lower peninsula of Michigan, we solved our signal problems there by acquiring 88.9 FM, a repeater frequency, that only serves Grand Rapids. We're more of a regional station, though we do keep offices in Grand Rapids. Another Grand Rapids station that broadcasts some jazz within it's otherwise eclectic format is WYCE, community based, volunteer announcer radio, with a supportive, enthusiastic local following, and the radio station doing the most concert production of any of the three non-profits we're talking about. Most of their live concerts are singer/songwriter based, though last year they brought in the John Scofield Band (big sucess).:smokin: