The Glory of Death-Jazz

[Coypu]

Since we all are interested in jazz I thought that I would write something about a few bands that succesfully combined Death Metal with Jazz. I know that it sound abit unorthodox but with the speed and technicality combined with the freeform of jazz you get a very interesting combination that I think is the best that has happened in music.

It all started with the band Atheist who early on discovered jazz through their drummer who took jazz lessons. They took influenced like Chick Corea, Watchtower & Zappa. Their first album started of as technical death metal with basslines that had broken the standard form of just shadowing the guitar. Very little jazz influnced can be heard on this record but the songs are however very unique for death metal and the drumming and bass was groundbreaking in the genre.

Atheist - I Deny (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Atheist%20-%20I%20Deny.mp3)

Their second album was the result of 1 year of constant work and the album was the first death-jazz album ever created. The music was a natural progression of their old album but included far more jazz influences.

And the psychic saw (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Atheist%20-%20Unquestionable%20Presence%20%5b1991%5d/atheist%20-%20And%20The%20Psychic%20Saw.mp3)

Their third album was created after the band broke up due to a strict contract with the record label. The album was created in 4 weeks from nothing to a final recording so things where very rushed. This did however make the album far more open since with such short time you can't create as advanced songs as on UP so they did a far more fusion like album this time which turned out amazing despite the short time :

Water (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Atheist%20-%20Elements%20%5b1993%5d/Atheist%20-%20Water.mp3)

That covers the originators of the genre pretty well and I will do a similar thing on the band (Cynic) that took this style to a new level, later on.

Take some time and listen to the songs and try to keep an open mind.

[ppjazz]

Copyu . . .

Your recurring references to "death-metal" music is frankly alien to yours truly. I went to the All-Music site and retrieved the following:

"Death Metal/Black Metal
genre: Rock
Death Metal grew out of the thrash metal in the late '80s. Taking the gritty lyrics and morbid obsessions of thrash to extremes, death metal was — as its name suggests — solely about death, pain, and suffering. These relentlessly bleak lyrics were set to loud, heavy riffs that owed as much to the lumbering metal of Black Sabbath as it did to Metallica. Death metal bands also owed a debt to the complex song structures of '70s art rockers, though most of these winding, intricate compositional methods were learned through Metallica. Death metal never attracted a wide audience, but to some diehard heavy metal fans, it was a preferable alternative to Metallica and Guns N' Roses — who were selling millions of records in the late '80s and early '90s — or the pop-metal of Poison. It kept a small, dedicated cult throughout the '90s."

Is this accurate information?

[Coypu]

If you have plenty of time you could read this : http://www.anus.com/hsc/hcl/mfaq.html

But the text you posted isn't that bad. But death metal is pretty much thrash + heavy metal but far heavier and very often alot more technical + growly vocals. This is basically DM in its original form. But alot have happened over the years and today there is a death metal band for every need. The genre have alot of different styles and endless amounts of sub genres.

Some key bands if you are interested :

Carcass - also grindcore, goregrind & death rock
Morbid Angel - standard DM
Suffocation - Brutal technical DM
Death - standard DM
Bolt Thrower - also grindcore, very massiva and warlike sound
Cryptopsy - technical brutal DM
Gorguts - experimental DM, usess dissonance in a very musical way
Immolation - Dark DM, lots and lots of emotion and "darkness"
Meshuggah - technical DM
Pestilence - almost technical DM and their last album was Fusion, Ambient, Jazz, Rock etc.
Possessed - The first DM band to release a full album
...

The key thing with DM is to understand that not all bands are like Cannibal Corpse with gary lyrics and fairly primitive songs. There is alot of interesting bands out there that if you give them a chance can blow your mind.

some mp3's so you can listen :

Carcass (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Carcass%20-%20Arbeit%20Macht%20Fleisch.mp3)

Autopsy (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Autopsy%20-%20Torn%20From%20The%20Grave%20(2001)/Autopsy%20-%2005%20-%20Ridden%20With%20Disease.mp3)

Gorguts (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Gorguts%20-%20Nostalgia.mp3)

Suffocation (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/suffocation%20-%20Catatonia.mp3)

At the gates (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Slaughter%20of%20the%20soul/At%20The%20Gates%20-%20Blinded%20by%20Fear.mp3)

[ppjazz]

Copyu . . .

" ... death metal was — as its name suggests — solely about death, pain, and suffering. ... "

Can you help me understand the motivation that drives the music and its creation? And what manner of listeners would you say are drawn to this music? Any religious over- or under-tones? Anti-establishment? Anarchial? What, if any, is the intellectual appeal? Is the music cerebral or more of an emotional outlet for its adherents?

Hopefully you recognize my complete ignorance.

[Coypu]

Many of the first death metal bands had alot of shockvalue in their lyrics. Cannibal Corpse is a fine example of very simple minded and shocking lyrics. But then we had Carcass who wrote pretty clever lyrics involving lots of dark humour as well as hidden social messages like strong veganic messages and songs about the glue sniffing problems in England and so forth.

Here is a few examples :

Cannibal Corpse from Necropedophile :

Here I cum, blood gushes from
bleeding black blood
her head disconnected
As I came, viciously I cut, through her jugular vein
She's already dead, I masturbate with her severed head
My lubrication, her decomposition
Spending my life molesting dead children

As you can see they are not serious at all when writing lyrics like this, it is only for chock value and they ended up selling a load of records and even was in Ace Ventura playing Hammer Smashed Face. It is like watching a good horror movie, it is not intellectually stimulating but still fun.

That should explain the gory lyric parts.

The religious aspects are very often very lame attempts at bashing christianity and some claim to be satanists etc. Most of this died out pretty soon when people realised how cheesy this was since practically no one in the death metal genre really where true satanist. But DM is defiantely against christianty, judaism and Muslim beleifs. So you can say that the genre has a good base in Atheism.

Death Metal have never been about lyrics though, most bands just write them so that they have something to sing, practically all bands focus all their energy on the music itself and the lyrics come in second hand.

The music and lyrics can work as an outlet but you can't say that as a general rule, there is plenty of bands that have clever and intellectually stimulating lyrics too so it depends on what you pick. As I said before, death metal have something for every need, if you like Gore then DM has it and if you like Eastern filosophical lyrics then DM has it too..

[clifton]

Coypu: I will never put down or insult anyone with whom I disagree, but I do want to respond to your analysis. My experience with death metal is limited. However, it is clear that a few death metal bands play technically demanding music with some improvising. Some death metal is, to my ears, cynically calculated music designed to appeal to teenage boys drowning in testosterone. Essentially, I think the emotional context of death metal is contrary to the emotional context of jazz. DM submerges itself in pain, rage, loss, negativity. The emotional palette of jazz is much wider, embracing all feeling, pain and joy, agony and ecstacy, and all nuances and shadings in between. In addition, given the African-American origins of jazz, a means of emotional transcendence suffuses the music. Jazz is in part a reaction to the ongoing insults of racism, and the consequent anger that arises therefrom. But jazz is also about transcending the anger. It announces the triumph over that anger. I concede the issues are more complex than that, but that's certainly what I hear in Armstrong, in Bird, in Ornette. Plus a good dose of blues feeling, what Stanley Crouch calls "tragic optimism", a world view arising from African-American life experience and culture. (I don't often agree with Crouch, but he's correct about this). Death Metal aesthetics appear to be contrary to jazz aesthetics. However, Coypu, I think what you're saying is that DM's immersion in negative emotions creates an intensity that surpasses that of jazz, and an energy jazz really needs. Please keep in mind that I'm giving my interpretation, but let me know if I missed the boat, and if so, how badly I missed. IMHO there's a lot of acoustic jazz that deals with anger, much of early Archie Shepp, for example. And a lot of acoustic jazz has scalding intensity..Bird's "Koko",.Ornette's Free Jazz", Trane's "Ascension", to name a few, again, IMHO. I don't believe immersion in pain is necessary for powerful music, but I'm not presumptuous to just say, "I'm right, you're wrong, that's it". Putting anybody down isn't my intention here. But let's debate the points raised here. No insults, no billingsgate, please. Let's have heated argument and fun.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by clifton
Coypu: I will never put down or insult anyone with whom I disagree, but I do want to respond to your analysis. My experience with death metal is limited. However, it is clear that a few death metal bands play technically demanding music with some improvising. Some death metal is, to my ears, cynically calculated music designed to appeal to teenage boys drowning in testosterone.

I'm not sure about cynical calculation etc, you make it sound like they have a masterplan to sell albums by creating extreme music for angry teens. There is no money to get in this genre, most of the bands have fulltime jobs and play because they enjoy the music and that is about it.

Essentially, I think the emotional context of death metal is contrary to the emotional context of jazz. DM submerges itself in pain, rage, loss, negativity. The emotional palette of jazz is much wider, embracing all feeling, pain and joy, agony and ecstacy, and all nuances and shadings in between. In addition, given the African-American origins of jazz, a means of emotional transcendence suffuses the music. Jazz is in part a reaction to the ongoing insults of racism, and the consequent anger that arises therefrom. But jazz is also about transcending the anger. It announces the triumph over that anger. I concede the issues are more complex than that, but that's certainly what I hear in Armstrong, in Bird, in Ornette. Plus a good dose of blues feeling, what Stanley Crouch calls "tragic optimism", a world view arising from African-American life experience and culture. (I don't often agree with Crouch, but he's correct about this).

The emotional spectra of death metal is very broad, I think I have exprienced most emotions through the various bands that exists. You can name any emotion and I can name a DM band that expresses it with the exception of thoose really sweet ballads (Anal Cunt actually made one ballad album once for joke). But the point is that DM has it all but when it comes to some emotions the power of DM is just so much stronger than anything you get from jazz. You will never find a jazz band that creates the eerie atmosphere of Immolation as an example. And you will definately not find a more brutal band than Suffocation and you can never match the aggression of Sarvophagus. etc. DM is supreme in thoose areas and equal to jazz in the others. And I understand what you are saying about the blues and the way it helped people dealing with their lives and the victor against it. But you get the same triumph in say this Immolation song :

"Jesus, You couldn't save me
You couldn't save the them
You couldn't save the world from misery

With glimpses of the highest reward
And the depths of the overwhelming promise
I confront him, the heavens before me
God fleeing, his presence swept away"

This song starts out pretty sad talking about the failed promises of Jesus and in the end he confronts the falls beleifs and they vanish. This is a result of the bad experinces they had with catholicism during their years in a strict catholic school. Maybe not as extreme as the slavery of the blacks but the emotion is there. But it all ends positively with the victor against evil.

Death Metal aesthetics appear to be contrary to jazz aesthetics. However, Coypu, I think what you're saying is that DM's immersion in negative emotions creates an intensity that surpasses that of jazz, and an energy jazz really needs. Please keep in mind that I'm giving my interpretation, but let me know if I missed the boat, and if so, how badly I missed. IMHO there's a lot of acoustic jazz that deals with anger, much of early Archie Shepp, for example. And a lot of acoustic jazz has scalding intensity..Bird's "Koko",.Ornette's Free Jazz", Trane's "Ascension", to name a few, again, IMHO. I don't believe immersion in pain is necessary for powerful music, but I'm not presumptuous to just say, "I'm right, you're wrong, that's it". Putting anybody down isn't my intention here. But let's debate the points raised here. No insults, no billingsgate, please. Let's have heated argument and fun.

I don't think that you need to dig deep into thoose emotions either to create powerfull music but it sure helps. I'm not sure how much DM you have heard but it is pretty easy to underestimate the genre if you never have heard it. But let us use movies as an example. The movies that leaves the strongest impression on me is the one that diggs very deep into my emotions that I fear and hide away. Sometimes a movie is really dead on something that I have hidden away and this evokes a emotional responce in me that is very strong. This is the strength of DM, it really diggs into our dark emotions that we never show to anyone except ourselves. Surely I enjoy listening to Holdsworth tearing it up with amazing solos and chord changes but when I put on Immolation I get transferred into a completely other mental state that is so much stronger. You really must listen to understand.

Start with listening to the soundclips I posted, it should give you some insight (not alot but a start) into the genre.

[clifton]

Coypu: Thanks for getting back to me with some depth and without insults, I appreciate that. After the soundclips, all I can honestly say is that jazz reaches me in a way no other music does. I'm guessing DM, especially DM-jazz fusion, reaches you the same way. BTW never underestimate the cynicism of the American music business. The corporate media peddle crap, it's all cynical calculation. Over here, corporate outlets like MTV and virtually every single radio station aggressively shove teen pop and gangsta rap in our faces. In America, gory lyrics are a business decision. We don't get Ornette on the radio and we don't get Atheist either.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by clifton
Coypu: Thanks for getting back to me with some depth and without insults, I appreciate that. After the soundclips, all I can honestly say is that jazz reaches me in a way no other music does. I'm guessing DM, especially DM-jazz fusion, reaches you the same way. BTW never underestimate the cynicism of the American music business. The corporate media peddle crap, it's all cynical calculation. Over here, corporate outlets like MTV and virtually every single radio station aggressively shove teen pop and gangsta rap in our faces. In America, gory lyrics are a business decision. We don't get Ornette on the radio and we don't get Atheist either.

I just don't see how jazz can dig up emotions like despair and aggression for example, but maybe you can recomend me some bands?

The only comercial band in death metal was Carcass, they joined a big label but they switched to their old label again when their new labal told the vocalist to take singing lessons. They where definately not asked to make more gory lyrics, their last lyrics had 0% gore in it. You can ask any gory band if they are in it for the money and they are all going to tell you that they have fulltime jobs and loose money from playing their music. The bands who make atleast some money are the soft melodic bands like In Flames and that shit. Gore doesn't sell albums anymore.

And don't give up on death metal yet, most people have a hard time in the beginning since it is often very different to what they listen to. But I haven't meet one person yet that I haven't been able to get into atleast a few bands.

Try theese too, they are exceptionally hard to get into but if you do then you are a lucky man :

Gorguts - Illuminatus (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Gorguts%20-%20Illuminatus.mp3)

Immolation - Unsaved (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Immolation%20-%20Unsaved.mp3)

[Giant Steps]

Just because feelings like anger and depression aren't forcefully shoved in your face doesn't mean they're not there. One of the things I love about jazz is the fact that one actually has to explore the music on a deeper level to extract all of it's feeling and meaning. One notable example of intensity in a jazz song for me would be the ending of John Coltrane's Countdown. All that intensity and he didn't even have to scream "fuck".

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Giant Steps
Just because feelings like anger and depression aren't forcefully shoved in your face doesn't mean they're not there. One of the things I love about jazz is the fact that one actually has to explore the music on a deeper level to extract all of it's feeling and meaning. One notable example of intensity in a jazz song for me would be the ending of John Coltrane's Countdown. All that intensity and he didn't even have to scream "fuck".

Good Cheese,
-GS-

Countdown (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/John%20Coltrane%20-%20Giant%20Steps%20-%2003%20-%20Countdown.mp3) vs.
the black tormentor of satan (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Marduk%20-%20The%20black%20tormentor%20of%20satan.mp3)

Well, the coltrane song is indeed intense but listen to both songs on high volume and compare. You should notice that Coltrane looks pretty soft in comparison. I like Coltrane alot but as far as intensity he just doesn't stand a chance against death and black metal.

[Giant Steps]

I guess I just disagree entirely. I get nothing from Death Metal but earaches. Intensity is in the music not in the volume. To each his own...

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[ppjazz]

Copyu . . .

I would have to question the relevance of this music beyond its negativity. Its graphic language (cited by you) is a total turnoff and I fail to see what a perceived "fusion" with jazz could possibly do apart from degrading the substance of the music.

I appreciate your effort to give me background and your perception of death metal's value. Sorry, but it doesn't register.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by ppjazz
Copyu . . .

I would have to question the relevance of this music beyond its negativity. Its graphic language (cited by you) is a total turnoff and I fail to see what a perceived "fusion" with jazz could possibly do apart from degrading the substance of the music.

I appreciate your effort to give me background and your perception of death metal's value. Sorry, but it doesn't register.

The example I gave was from one of the most gory bands out there. What I want is a fusion between technical death metal and jazz. If you read the lyrics of Atheist & Cynic you will see that their lyrics are far different.

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/cynic/focus.html#1

http://www.darklyrics.com/lyrics/atheist/elements.html#1

What jazz often seem to be lacking is structure and advanced compositions, you find very often that most instruments only serve as a foundation for 1 person to solo over, what Atheist & Cynic did was that they took a solid structure where all musicians could play out fully and added abit more freeform into the music without destroying the compositional values. Atheist is the most primitive example but Cynics music is beyond anything I have ever heard in jazz.

I guess I just disagree entirely. I get nothing from Death Metal but earaches. Intensity is in the music not in the volume. To each his own...

It is only because you haven't heard much, the first time I heard Gorguts I seriusly thought that it was the worst music ever created. But after a while it all made sense once my brain managed to sort it all out and now I consider Gorguts to be one of the most brilliant bands of all time. But if you can't get into it at all then it is not much to do about it. sorry.

[omar zamora]

Coypu,

Your assertion that Jazz lacks advanced composition makes me believe you really haven't heard much Jazz outside of the fusion (which itself borrows from the bop/post-bop) head-solo-head format.

Which is not to say that there isn't plenty of freely improvised music that creates spontaneous composition or structures (Cecil, for example), sometimes so rich and full that they sound thoroughly composed. Nor that there isn't still plenty of head-solo-head. But really, there's a lot more than that.

No offense, though. Just an observation.

[DWBass]

Okay...........after listening to ALL of the above downloads, my viewpoint is...........this is not fusion!! If anything out there is considered a 'fusion' of jazz and rock, it would be Dream Theatre or Liquid Tension Experiment. This stuff is nowhere near that type of musicianship or sound! Your ears betry you my friend! It may also be YOUR wishful thinking that this is to be considered jazz fusion. I am a musician (30+years exp) and am a lover of true jazz fusion and I can honestly say that this is not jazz fusion by any means! Not even close. Sorry, this is not meant to be a flame but you can take it for what it is. MHO! By the way, what exactly are you looking for in jazz?? The emotions you find and feel seem to be in Death Metal. So why does Death Metal NEED to be fused or even associated with jazz?? I don't get it! Bottom line is........there is NO comparison nor connection! Lastly........a band named Athiest?? The name says it all dude! I don't like the genre, attitude nor negativity(even though I'm being negative as I write)! "Death' Metal?! Hoo boy........I could go on a rant that would match or even surpass your efforts to convince us that there is a correlation between Jazz and DM but I won't and this will be my only post.

Peace

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
Okay...........after listening to ALL of the above downloads, my viewpoint is...........this is not fusion!! If anything out there is considered a 'fusion' of jazz and rock, it would be Dream Theatre or Liquid Tension Experiment. This stuff is nowhere near that type of musicianship or sound! Your ears betry you my friend! It may also be YOUR wishful thinking that this is to be considered jazz fusion. I am a musician (30+years exp) and am a lover of true jazz fusion and I can honestly say that this is not jazz fusion by any means! Not even close. Sorry, this is not meant to be a flame but you can take it for what it is. MHO! By the way, what exactly are you looking for in jazz?? The emotions you find and feel seem to be in Death Metal. So why does Death Metal NEED to be fused or even associated with jazz?? I don't get it! Bottom line is........there is NO comparison nor connection! Lastly........a band named Athiest?? The name says it all dude! I don't like the genre, attitude nor negativity(even though I'm being negative as I write)! "Death' Metal?! Hoo boy........I could go on a rant that would match or even surpass your efforts to convince us that there is a correlation between Jazz and DM but I won't and this will be my only post.

Peace

The first soundclip is death metal as I stated, the second one is death metal which has been influenced by jazz and that song differes alot from standard death metal and has clearly evolved into something that nowadays is refered to death-jazz, it is not fusion in the form that Mahavishnu Orchestra is, DT and LTE are progressive rock in its basic form and has less incommon with jazz than Atheist has. Atheist is howwever the first who ever did this and they never went as far as bands like Cynic did but the influence of jazz was defiantely something important for how the band evolved. But if you can find the Atheist songs : Samba Briza and Elements you will see it more clearly. The reason I want death metal to make a fusion with jazz is because it brings a freeform influence that helps to brake many stereotypes that exist in DM. Listen to how Atheist use their bassplayer and compare it to any DM band from that time period, you will find that the bassplaying is unique and stands out more thanks to the jazz influences they had. The same thing goes with the drums, the drumming is highly unique for a DM band at that time using no blast beats at all and having a good deal of variation. Try listening to the Autopsy song and compare it with Water by Atheist. That should give you a picture of how different Atheist is.

And some death metal have negative lyrics and some has not, Atheist is one example of a band who have more normal lyrics. Atleast death metal have the diversity of having almost all possible forms of lyrics.

I tip my head to the creation
And its rewarding disposition
Formed by something
Lacking nothing here
Something so divine
A spectacle of "Elements"
Enjoying all the warmth of fire
Longing for the breeze of morning air
Douse myself with the purest water
Something so divine
The spectacle of Elements

As storms approach the mineral
Bringing the nutrients for the green
They feed the lakes of our mother Earth
Sharing forces for the living
Yes the caption seems to be complete
Our gratitude lacks sincerity

We filter our pollution through the selfish
Declaration of only our independence,
Not concerned about the Elements!

But listen to this Cynic song, it has taken things abit further and you might understand better by listening to it :

short clip:
Cynic - Textures (http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/SeanTextures.mp3)

full song:
I'm but a wave to... (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/x06.mp3)

[Coypu]

Originally posted by omar zamora
Coypu,

Your assertion that Jazz lacks advanced composition makes me believe you really haven't heard much Jazz outside of the fusion (which itself borrows from the bop/post-bop) head-solo-head format.

Which is not to say that there isn't plenty of freely improvised music that creates spontaneous composition or structures (Cecil, for example), sometimes so rich and full that they sound thoroughly composed. Nor that there isn't still plenty of head-solo-head. But really, there's a lot more than that.

No offense, though. Just an observation.

Sounds good, give me a few examples then so I can see for myself.

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Coypu


But listen to this Cynic song, it has taken things abit further and you might understand better by listening to it :

Ok, now that's a lot more progressive than your other examples. I hear the musicianship and the fusion connection. Now if they got rid of the vocalist/Death Metal vibe, they could be taken more seriously and maybe even sell some records! The fact is, for me, the band name and vocal style and attitude will never make me buy a cd.

Peace and Positivity......

[lazy bird]

I wonder nobody mentioned John Zorn/Naked City yet. In the late 80's John Zorn combined grindcore and jazz elements into his 'Naked City' project. In his thankslist John Zorn mentioned f.i. Carcass and Napalm death.

I you like 'brutal' jazz you really have to check out Peter Brötzmann / Machine gun from 1968!

excerpt from the liner notes (1985):

The problem that once you had ben trepanned by Brötzmann and his howling commandos (and learned to love the experience) you put yourself above musical shock. Rock's supposed "threats" - for example, such as heavy metal or punk - were just so much fairy cake to machine gun people.


As a teenager i listened to bands like Carcass, Bolt Thrower and Morbid Angel. Although a lot of this music lacks depth, some bands do much more than just shouting stupid puberal lyrics. Listen to Carcass / heartwork for instance.

[lazy bird]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coypu
[B]

What jazz often seem to be lacking is structure and advanced compositions, you find very often that most instruments only serve as a foundation for 1 person to solo over, what Atheist & Cynic did was that they took a solid structure where all musicians could play out fully and added abit more freeform into the music without destroying the compositional values. Atheist is the most primitive example but Cynics music is beyond anything I have ever heard in jazz.

I'm sure that a lot of jazz has much more compositional values than any metal.

some examples:

Duke Ellington: 'Black and tan fantasy'
Miles Davis and Gil evans: 'Skethces of Spain', 'Birth of the cool'
Ornette Coleman: 'Skies of America'
Charles Mingus 'The black saint and the sinner lady'
Frank Zappa: 'The grand wazoo'
Louis Sclavis Quintet: 'L'affrontement des prétendants'
John Zorn: 'Masada'

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
Ok, now that's a lot more progressive than your other examples. I hear the musicianship and the fusion connection. Now if they got rid of the vocalist/Death Metal vibe, they could be taken more seriously and maybe even sell some records! The fact is, for me, the band name and vocal style and attitude will never make me buy a cd.

Peace and Positivity......

They have sold atleast 100000 albums so things went pretty well in that area. And they use many vocal styles on that album and I like them all, most people tend to be able to get over their vocal issues and just enjoy the music. They are doing a re-release soon and I strongly advice you to buy it.

I wonder nobody mentioned John Zorn/Naked City yet. In the late 80's John Zorn combined grindcore and jazz elements into his 'Naked City' project. In his thankslist John Zorn mentioned f.i. Carcass and Napalm death.

I you like 'brutal' jazz you really have to check out Peter Brötzmann / Machine gun from 1968!

excerpt from the liner notes (1985):

The problem that once you had ben trepanned by Brötzmann and his howling commandos (and learned to love the experience) you put yourself above musical shock. Rock's supposed "threats" - for example, such as heavy metal or punk - were just so much fairy cake to machine gun people.

As a teenager i listened to bands like Carcass, Bolt Thrower and Morbid Angel. Although a lot of this music lacks depth, some bands do much more than just shouting stupid puberal lyrics. Listen to Carcass / heartwork for instance.

Never heard of Naked City or Machine Gun but I will check them out as soon as I get the chance. And I agree on carcass, they had pretty clever lyrics and are among my favorite bands in when it comes to both music and lyrics.

I'm sure that a lot of jazz has much more compositional values than any metal.

some examples:

Duke Ellington: 'Black and tan fantasy'
Miles Davis and Gil evans: 'Skethces of Spain', 'Birth of the cool'
Ornette Coleman: 'Skies of America'
Charles Mingus 'The black saint and the sinner lady'
Frank Zappa: 'The grand wazoo'
Louis Sclavis Quintet: 'L'affrontement des prétendants'
John Zorn: 'Masada'

I am familiar with some of thoose and I will check the rest out as soon as I get my T1 connection back.

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Coypu


They have sold at least 100,000 albums so things went pretty well in that area. And they used many vocal styles on that album and I liked them all. Most people tend to be able to get over their vocal issues and just enjoy the music. They are doing a re-release soon and I strongly advice you to buy it.


Nah! I don't think so. I will stick to my 'safe' jazz fusion! I.E. Dave Weckl Band, Metro, Yellowjackets, etc...


Merry X-mas ;)

[lazy bird]

Naked city

http://www.omnology.com/zorn03.html

Machine gun

http://www.free-music-production.de/fmpcds/efmpcd024.htm

[Coypu]

Originally posted by lazy bird
Naked city

http://www.omnology.com/zorn03.html

Machine gun

http://www.free-music-production.de/fmpcds/efmpcd024.htm

Batman
2. Sicilian Clan
3. You Will Be Shot
4. Latin Quarter
5. Shot in the Dark

I listened to short samples of the songs above and I admit that the music sounds nice and was definately good it really doesn't seem to the kind of the music where all musicians are put to the test fully. Thoose clips might have been bad examples but from judging from thoose I must say that it isn't even close to bands like Theory In Practice, Cynic, and even Suffocation. So I still think that my wish for the technicality of technical death metal should join with jazz since from what I have heard sofar DM still owns jazz as far as composed technical musical goes.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
Nah! I don't think so. I will stick to my 'safe' jazz fusion! I.E. Dave Weckl Band, Metro, Yellowjackets, etc...


Merry X-mas ;)

It's your choice and I respect it nomatter how lost it may seem ;)

But you must check out Gordian Knot which is a progressive rock band spawned from Cynic but it is instrumental and 0% death metal but still contains some of the most amazing music ever created : sample song : Rivers Dancing (http:/http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Gordian%20Knot%20-%20Gordian%20Knot%20(1999)%20%5b256%5d/08%20-%20Rivers%20Dancing.mp3/)

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Coypu


It's your choice and I respect it no matter how lost it may seem ;)



Now why must my choice be a lost one? I respect your choice to listen to whatever you like and do not consider it to be a 'lost' one! It is your preference to listen to "Death Metal Fusion" and mine to listen to "Jazz Fusion" . This is why I try not to engage in verbage where one is trying to 'convert' another and condemns anyone who doesn't believe what they believe in. I admitted to you that the music was interesting and listenable. Why is that not enough? I DO NOT like the vocal qualities of this genre. I assume that you are a young lad trying to find his way but I am a 43 year old man who's been around the block several times as a musician and music lover. Please stop the preaching. You already have our interest with your initial posts. That should be enough. In other words.........Get A Frikkin' Life!!

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
Now why must my choice be a lost one? I respect your choice to listen to whatever you like and do not consider it to be a 'lost' one! It is your preference to listen to "Death Metal Fusion" and mine to listen to "Jazz Fusion" . This is why I try not to engage in verbage where one is trying to 'convert' another and condemns anyone who doesn't believe what they believe in. I admitted to you that the music was interesting and listenable. Why is that not enough? I DO NOT like the vocal qualities of this genre. I assume that you are a young lad trying to find his way but I am a 43 year old man who's been around the block several times as a musician and music lover. Please stop the preaching. You already have our interest with your initial posts. That should be enough. In other words.........Get A Frikkin' Life!!

I'm just trying to get people in the the music I love, and it took me long time to be able to fully appreciate it so when people like it abit but not fully it does almost always make them potential lovers of it. So as far as your vocal issue goes I can only say..........Get Over It!!!

I have gotten a shitload of people into bands like Cynic who initially couldn't stand anything of the kind so I understand your viewpoint but mine is different.

[Giant Steps]

This is exactly what I was getting at in a post I made a while ago. I'm sick of hearing you constantly bash jazz and talk about how much superior death metal is. For the most part, the majority of us have kindly respected your musical interests unless we've criticized them in defense of our own.

There are some things you should realize:

-This is a JAZZ message board NOT a death metal message board. If you don't like JAZZ don't post here.

-People don't come to a JAZZ message board to be told that jazz sucks and that they should be listening to death metal.

-People who don't share your interests are not inferior people and they are not "lost." For all the time you spend preaching about being open-minded, you seem to have an exceptionally closed mind yourself.

Understand that I have intensely diverse musical interests and this is not in response to your taste of music in and of itself. It's in response to your disrespect towards others' different opinions and taste, and that you seem to be completely ignorant of the fact that THIS IS A JAZZ MESSAGE BOARD! IF YOU DON'T LIKE JAZZ, DON'T POST HERE!

-GS-

[Coypu]

1. I never bashed jazz

2. I have never tried to promote pure death metal here.

3. I wrote that post jokingly, get some humour and try to make posts without personal insults the next time.

4. Listen to the music I posted a few more times.

[Jazz]

Coypu,

I am very very inclined to disagree with your opinion on fusing jazz and deathmetal. But, I enjoy it when someone with an opposing viewpoint gives me the opportunity to really go into depth about my views, so I think its only fair.

What elements of death metal do you think should be incorporated into jazz, or vice versa? I am looking for very specific things here, it would help me envision what you have in mind. You imply that some bands have taken steps toward this, but a death-jazz hybrid has not fully been developed. Define what elements would make a death metal band "fusion" instead of just death metal.

Just FYI, my own opinion is that the best jazz is mostly jazz that was naturally developed by people with a vision of what very specific element(s) they wanted to add to it next, rather than trying to "fuse" a genre with other genres to try and get something new. Please guys, don't flame me for this, I don't hate you as people, I just have an opinion...

[clifton]

Coypu: I had wanted to recommend some acoustic jazz with the intensity that you're getting out of DM, since I think "intensity" is the key issue here, I think. You may have to adjust your listening criteria somewhat, however, and at least consider these notions: 1)Amplification and high volume are not prerequisites for intensity. 2)Improvisation, that is, being in the moment, is a key component of jazz, and song structure serves to challenge the improviser. Anyhow, my recommendations: John Coltrane, "Ascension", "Live In Seattle", "Kulu Se Mama". Sonny Sharrock, "Ask The Ages". Ornette Coleman, "Free Jazz". For jazz with intricate composition, Dave Douglas, "Soul On Soul". Check 'em out. BTW Cynic was pretty interesting.

[DWBass]

Just wondering how 'Death' can invoke any sort of positive emotions. If you're really trying to find some sort of connection to jazz, why not come up with a new name for this genre and do away with the 'death' aspect. As long as 'death' is a factor here, you're really not going to get much interest from us 'jazz purists' here at this forum. Yes, I agree that the music is technically challenging and the musicians are very adept at their instruments! As far as getting over the vocal qualities of the genre, I have no reason to actually listen to anyone spewing forth garbage and negative lyrics without any sort of musical qualities (pretty much just shouting in a deep voice is not music). Take away the vocals and maybe the music will have a chance at getting a little more exposure. Yeah, I think the music is fusion..............fusion of metal and the devil!! It's not jazz!! Copyu, you are valient in your efforts here but it's really falling on mostly deaf ears at this point. May I try to move you in a different direction by asking what 'other' music you listen to and enjoy? Any 'jazz' artists?? Are you a musician? What do you do for a living? Married? Family? Hobbies? Come on...................open up!! :D

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
Coypu,

I am very very inclined to disagree with your opinion on fusing jazz and deathmetal. But, I enjoy it when someone with an opposing viewpoint gives me the opportunity to really go into depth about my views, so I think its only fair.

What elements of death metal do you think should be incorporated into jazz, or vice versa? I am looking for very specific things here, it would help me envision what you have in mind. You imply that some bands have taken steps toward this, but a death-jazz hybrid has not fully been developed. Define what elements would make a death metal band "fusion" instead of just death metal.

Just FYI, my own opinion is that the best jazz is mostly jazz that was naturally developed by people with a vision of what very specific element(s) they wanted to add to it next, rather than trying to "fuse" a genre with other genres to try and get something new. Please guys, don't flame me for this, I don't hate you as people, I just have an opinion...

Specific things I would like to incorporate in jazz are :

The Vocal style of DM, very few like it at the start but this vocal style is byfar the most powerfull ever created. Listen to Open Face Surgery by Cryptopsy and Illuminaus by Gorguts for good examples.

Structure, The ability to have a technical song structure as a base and then let in some improvisation within that. Pretty much like Spastic ink + Coltrane as an example.

Heaviness, eventhough this has no real value in itself (Rammstein) it can still be a powerfull factor if used right (Suffocation).

, I think that when bands break away from using blastbeats and incorporate improvisation into the music but still uses DM vocals and some sort of speed and aggression they have went into becomoning a fusion band rather than DM. It is always hard to make exactg definitions of genres though.

Sure music should be naturally developed but if we ue Cynic as an example it is very easy to see that they from day 1 progressed extremely fast and always towards a more fusion bed sound. You don't need 50 years to create something new but only abit of imagination.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by clifton
Coypu: I had wanted to recommend some acoustic jazz with the intensity that you're getting out of DM, since I think "intensity" is the key issue here, I think. You may have to adjust your listening criteria somewhat, however, and at least consider these notions: 1)Amplification and high volume are not prerequisites for intensity. 2)Improvisation, that is, being in the moment, is a key component of jazz, and song structure serves to challenge the improviser. Anyhow, my recommendations: John Coltrane, "Ascension", "Live In Seattle", "Kulu Se Mama". Sonny Sharrock, "Ask The Ages". Ornette Coleman, "Free Jazz". For jazz with intricate composition, Dave Douglas, "Soul On Soul". Check 'em out. BTW Cynic was pretty interesting.

I know what you mean about intensity and yes I agree with you abit. But the deinition of the word is : "Exceptionally great concentration, power, or force" , And I would say that it sums up death metal pretty well. And the Black metal band Marduk is the masters of this and as much as I enjoy Coltrane Marduk are still far more intense if we use this definition.

2. Let us use an example here to explain what I look for : Giant Steps, a highly challenging song that is tough to improvise over (atleast from my point of view). But the main issue with this song is that 1 person is in focus who plays out fully. What I want is for all musicians to play something like Mosquito Brain Surgery and then add some improvisation to that at times witut loosing focus.

I shall check out all songs very soon when I get back to my regular connection.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
Just wondering how 'Death' can invoke any sort of positive emotions. If you're really trying to find some sort of connection to jazz, why not come up with a new name for this genre and do away with the 'death' aspect. As long as 'death' is a factor here, you're really not going to get much interest from us 'jazz purists' here at this forum. Yes, I agree that the music is technically challenging and the musicians are very adept at their instruments! As far as getting over the vocal qualities of the genre, I have no reason to actually listen to anyone spewing forth garbage and negative lyrics without any sort of musical qualities (pretty much just shouting in a deep voice is not music). Take away the vocals and maybe the music will have a chance at getting a little more exposure. Yeah, I think the music is fusion..............fusion of metal and the devil!! It's not jazz!! Copyu, you are valient in your efforts here but it's really falling on mostly deaf ears at this point. May I try to move you in a different direction by asking what 'other' music you listen to and enjoy? Any 'jazz' artists?? Are you a musician? What do you do for a living? Married? Family? Hobbies? Come on...................open up!! :D

Well if death metal was called Love Metal I'm sure that more people would get into it but I still think that people should have the ability to see past the name "death" and just listen to the music instead.

Well, I think that some vocalists in death metal are truly amazing musicians and you could always try to recreate any of Lord Worms stuff. Maybe then you will realise that it takes alot of work to become good at it. And lsten to Ross Dolan who have almost perfect pronounciation but still sounds like Satan himself.

Well if you don't like Fusion then I must ask why? Fusion has easily the most forward musicians and are pushing this further all the time so how can you not like it?

Well, I enjoy some jazz musicians that create good music, Coltrane has some fine stuff but I can't say that I enjoy jazz on a very emotional scale. It is more as a musician that I enjoy it. I'm definately more into fusion since the use of electrical instruments within a technical but musical content apeals to me more. Allan Holdsworth is one of my favorites jazz/fusion guys. But I listen to lots of music outside theese genres like Classical, Ambient, Prog etc.

Well, I study Media Technology in Sweden and my hobby is playing bass and that occupies most of my spare time. I'm not a proffecinal musician but I practice alot so I'm hoping to one day be able to create some good music as an amater or pro.

[DWBass]

Hey, I never said I didn't like jazz fusion!! :) In fact, I've immersed myself in it! I, like you, enjoy all types of music but as I've gotten older, I've gotten a little more selective in my tastes. Remember, I could be your dad! :)

[Jazz]

Coypu,

Okay, I understand the vocals, and I think that by "heaviness" you are referring to that bassy distortion with alot of "crunch" that metal bands use...

But I'm really not getting the structure thing:

Originally posted by Coypu
Structure, The ability to have a technical song structure as a base and then let in some improvisation within that. Pretty much like Spastic ink + Coltrane as an example.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "structure". If you mean FORM, then my experience is that most standards are ABAB, AABA, or blues form. There are however, many many exceptions to THAT rule (you might want to check out Charles Mingus or Duke Ellington). Personally, I think those forms are still pretty fresh in the jazz-context, and I think there's plenty more that can be done with the standard "structure".

If by structure you mean the other elements that go into a song besides form I'd have to say that jazz is probably one of the most advanced musics in that area. For one thing, from a classical standpoint, all straight ahead jazz modulates practically EVERY measure! Sometimes even more than that. It's called playing the changes, and it takes ALOT of effort and training to learn how to do it. Head melodies are usually also very sophisticated because they are following the changes very closely. Also, there are so many rhythmic complexities in jazz that it is usually accused of being TOO technical to be relatable to a casual listener. I mean, you want to talk mind blowing polyrhythms, hemiolas, delightfully unexpected and surprising melodic phrasing, and of course, the ability to swing it out hard, jazz has got all of that. Not even to mention the fact that EVERYBODY in a good straight ahead jazz ensemble is improvising. The rhythm players are improvising voicings and comping spots, melody players (if they are really on the level) are improvising counterpoint to the soloist, the drummer is improvising polyrhythms or trying to accentuate the melodic ideas in the solo, and the bassist is improvising a bassline for the changes.

So, I guess in conclusion I would really have to disagree that jazz needs MORE structure, that it doesn't have any structure, or that its structure is not one of the most sophisticated structures in music.

To put this in perspective, I would say that a really important element of jazz is the goal of always playing a song differently each time you play it. So if you can imagine deathmetal players changing their song everytime, improvising over their own composed melodies, improvising new changes on the spot, and trying to solo each time something they had never done before, I would agree that I would call it fusion, and I would respect it a little more.

[BariMusix]

WordTo put this in perspective, I would say that a really important element of jazz is the goal of always playing a song differently each time you play it. So if you can imagine deathmetal players changing their song everytime, improvising over their own composed melodies, improvising new changes on the spot, and trying to solo each time something they had never done before, I would agree that I would call it fusion, and I would respect it a little more.
WORD :D

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
Coypu,

Okay, I understand the vocals, and I think that by "heaviness" you are referring to that bassy distortion with alot of "crunch" that metal bands use...

But I'm really not getting the structure thing:

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "structure". If you mean FORM, then my experience is that most standards are ABAB, AABA, or blues form. There are however, many many exceptions to THAT rule (you might want to check out Charles Mingus or Duke Ellington). Personally, I think those forms are still pretty fresh in the jazz-context, and I think there's plenty more that can be done with the standard "structure".

If by structure you mean the other elements that go into a song besides form I'd have to say that jazz is probably one of the most advanced musics in that area. For one thing, from a classical standpoint, all straight ahead jazz modulates practically EVERY measure! Sometimes even more than that. It's called playing the changes, and it takes ALOT of effort and training to learn how to do it. Head melodies are usually also very sophisticated because they are following the changes very closely. Also, there are so many rhythmic complexities in jazz that it is usually accused of being TOO technical to be relatable to a casual listener. I mean, you want to talk mind blowing polyrhythms, hemiolas, delightfully unexpected and surprising melodic phrasing, and of course, the ability to swing it out hard, jazz has got all of that. Not even to mention the fact that EVERYBODY in a good straight ahead jazz ensemble is improvising. The rhythm players are improvising voicings and comping spots, melody players (if they are really on the level) are improvising counterpoint to the soloist, the drummer is improvising polyrhythms or trying to accentuate the melodic ideas in the solo, and the bassist is improvising a bassline for the changes.

So, I guess in conclusion I would really have to disagree that jazz needs MORE structure, that it doesn't have any structure, or that its structure is not one of the most sophisticated structures in music.

To put this in perspective, I would say that a really important element of jazz is the goal of always playing a song differently each time you play it. So if you can imagine deathmetal players changing their song everytime, improvising over their own composed melodies, improvising new changes on the spot, and trying to solo each time something they had never done before, I would agree that I would call it fusion, and I would respect it a little more.

I am well aware that some jazz mudulates alot and takes incredible amounts of skill to play but yet again you end up with the problem that eventhough it takes skill to be able to improvise tunes you will always find that in a almost totally improvised song that you can never reach the complexity that is possible when you have more composed music. I once asked Sean Malone what he considered to be hard music for him to play and the answer was not jazz improvisations or bass solos but Spastic Ink's basic basslines. Spastic Ink is 0% improvised but incredibly technical for all musicians and they have complexity I have never heard improvised. I do however think that improvising solos within a composed song would be a good thing to add some variety in a live situation.

I don't think that you can sync a whole band to the degree that they could be able to improvise technical death metal, I don't think that it would be possible for a musician to pull it off. I would be happy if it could be done but I don't think it is possible. Sean Malone used to improvise his stick solo in Textures but improvising the whole song with 3-5 layers of music would be impossible to pull of well. Total improvisation only serves as a platform to people to show their solo skills and the songs themselves often seem to be suffering.

But if you can show me some highly improvised music that has the same complexity as bands like Spastic Ink & Cynic then I will reconsider my beleifs on this subject.

[DWBass]

Copyu....how long have you been playing the bass? (I've been playing for over 30 years). Are you able to play 'death metal' basslines? (just wondering!)

In all of my years of playing, I've never dug so deep into any style of music whereas to make it so complicated and complex. As far as I know, musicians (composers) just play what they feel. Some are virtuosos on their instruments and some are just very good. (I would put myself in this classification). I just don't see the need to delve so deep into any style of music. Your ears are the ultimate critic! Either you like something or you don't. You've made your point but all the over analyzing of the genre is getting downright boring. We appreciate you love for the genre but come on now..........is this all you have for us? Are all of your posts going to be about Death Metal? Is that it? Come on, surely you have other interests? Huh, Huh........anything??:D

[Coypu]

I have been playing bass for 11 years and I can play most death metal that is out there that isn't super fast.

So you basically are saying that we should settle for simple music that please our ears? I love lots and lots of simple music but as a musician I think that it is important to always push my limits and try to explore the outer boundaries of the music I love.

And yes I have other interests than DM but this thread is about the glory of death-jazz so I'll just stick to the topic for the time being.

[Giant Steps]

Why can't music be great without complexity and technicallity? You talk about improvisers playing to show off, isn't a whole band playing to show off how "technical" and "complex" they can be even worse? Where did the MUSIC go?

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Coypu

So you basically are saying that we should settle for simple music that please our ears? I love lots and lots of simple music but as a musician I think that it is important to always push my limits and try to explore the outer boundaries of the music I love.
.

I never said 'simple'!! I just said whatever is pleasing to your ears. In your case, Death Metal pleases you. Hey, whatever floats your boat dude! When I was younger, I too, was into playing super fast and learning all of the Stanley Clarke and Jaco riffs but hey, it gets old real quick when you discover it's not your own voice. At some point, you'll move on from DM to another genre. As a musician, I have explored the boundries of many many different styles of music and can play them all with strength and conviction but the bottom line is what your compositional juices emit through your fingertips. Unless you are planning to form a band playing death metal, what is the point in spending most of your time talking and writing about it. I would rather listen to you then the bands you mention. I'm interested in you as a musician and a person. I could give two rats asses about DM! Present some of your playing for us to listen to. You know, we could go on forever writing back and forth and trying impart our great wisdom on each other but what is the point? Have fun with whatever music you dig and don't take it so serious!

[Jazz]

Coypu,

First off, I agree with you that death-jazz is what this thread's about, so lets talk about it for pete's sake!

Originally posted by Coypu
I am well aware that some jazz mudulates alot and takes incredible amounts of skill to play but yet again you end up with the problem that eventhough it takes skill to be able to improvise tunes you will always find that in a almost totally improvised song that you can never reach the complexity that is possible when you have more composed music.

I'm sorry, I just disagree, and many educated people disagree. My old music prof's relative (forget which, grandma or something) who has numerous degrees in music and specializes in composed/orchestrated music, refuses to listen to jazz because it is too complex. There is too much going on for her to compute all at once.

Another thing, I don't get what you mean by "complexity". Please be more specific. I thought I showed pretty well in my last post how complicated and sophisticated jazz is.

Originally posted by Coypu
but improvising the whole song with 3-5 layers of music would be impossible to pull of well.

I'm sorry but that is exactly what jazz is about. Every good straight ahead jazz ensemble is doing what you describe right there.

Originally posted by Coypu
But if you can show me some highly improvised music that has the same complexity as bands like Spastic Ink & Cynic then I will reconsider my beleifs on this subject.

I'm sorry but you have just described straight ahead jazz. Listen to the Mingus big band, Modern Jazz Quartet, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Gerry Mulligan (who does COUNTERPOINT with the freakin lead, so awesome), Thelonious Monk, Carmen McRae, Wynford and Branford Marsalis, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Duke Ellington, Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers, and Kenny G. (just kidding)

I think what you are missing about jazz is that in a true jazz ensemble, everybody is improvising all at once, but it sounds like they practiced it that way. So when you listen to jazz, try to figure out with you ear what is being improvised. If a majority of a song by those above artists sounds like they played it off a page, they did their job because they are supposed to improvise things that sound just as solid as if they sat down and composed it. AND, THE INTERACTION!!! Listen for all the players interacting with eachother. Its very subtle and easy to miss. The drummer will echo on the cymbal some rhythmic thing that the soloist did the last phrase, or the bass will copy or stretch out a melodic fragment of the solo. Or sometimes the bass and drums will interact, or the piano and the soloists... I mean, there's an infinite amount of possibilities in EACH moment! In the best jazz this interaction is supposed to be happening all throughout the performance, so listen hard for it. That's the thing about jazz you have to listen HARD, you have to concentrate on it if you want to understand it. If you can start to hear jazz differently I think it will change your perspective. JMHO


I really really don't think that
complexity + technicality = soulless

all complexity and technicality means is that it takes a TON more effort and study (whether in a school, or by transcribing and gigging) to become natural with the art so as to be soulful.


WHEW, that was loooong. sorry bout that guys! :D

[Giant Steps]

I should clarify that my post wasn't meant to say that technicality in music is a bad thing by any means. It was meant to make a point that technicality and complexity aren't the only supreme components of music.

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Giant Steps
Why can't music be great without complexity and technicallity? You talk about improvisers playing to show off, isn't a whole band playing to show off how "technical" and "complex" they can be even worse? Where did the MUSIC go?

Good Cheese,
-GS-

There are many bands that I don't listen too just because they are only technical and nothing more. I myself am a lover of technical music with passion and doesn't settle for less.

I never said 'simple'!! I just said whatever is pleasing to your ears. In your case, Death Metal pleases you. Hey, whatever floats your boat dude! When I was younger, I too, was into playing super fast and learning all of the Stanley Clarke and Jaco riffs but hey, it gets old real quick when you discover it's not your own voice. At some point, you'll move on from DM to another genre. As a musician, I have explored the boundries of many many different styles of music and can play them all with strength and conviction but the bottom line is what your compositional juices emit through your fingertips. Unless you are planning to form a band playing death metal, what is the point in spending most of your time talking and writing about it. I would rather listen to you then the bands you mention. I'm interested in you as a musician and a person. I could give two rats asses about DM! Present some of your playing for us to listen to. You know, we could go on forever writing back and forth and trying impart our great wisdom on each other but what is the point? Have fun with whatever music you dig and don't take it so serious!

About 10% of the songs I play are DM so I have played many different genres too learn other styles. But I am planning to form a band that is atleast in some form releated to DM but finding dedicated people who share my vision of music seems to be very hard at the moment due to the incredibly small town I live in. Well I don't have anything recorded of my own playing but I will post something whenever I feel that there is a need too. I want to hear your stuff too so if you got any feel free to post it too. I agree that discussing on the internet is often futile but I feel that just having this discussion in the first place is a victor in itself since eventhough none of you will ever get into the music you may still look at it in a better way and that would be great. But I think that if more musicians where dedicated to their music and worked harder to create something special then the world would be a better place. I don't claim to be perfect but I do my best with my abilites and hopefully others do to.

I'm sorry, I just disagree, and many educated people disagree. My old music prof's relative (forget which, grandma or something) who has numerous degrees in music and specializes in composed/orchestrated music, refuses to listen to jazz because it is too complex. There is too much going on for her to compute all at once.

Another thing, I don't get what you mean by "complexity". Please be more specific. I thought I showed pretty well in my last post how complicated and sophisticated jazz is.

Well sure, jazz can be incredibly complex and this is one peice of what I am trying to explain. This freeform complexity can be amazing but it can't do anything you want to. Let us say that you have a 10 peice band and one day the bassplayer says "Let us improvise something in the vein of Theory In Practice and let the bass double the guitar in the first part". Ok, this is impossible to do if you are going to improvise all and just the part where 2 musicians are going to play the same thing for a while is impossible if you are going to play something in the vein of Technical metal. This is where I want composition to have a place, composing parts of the song allows you to create anything you like and by adding some improvisation you can also get some freeform into the music that allows to be more free. This is the glory of death jazz, the combination of 2 good things taken to their peak. So why DM + jazz? Well DM is the extremest genres along with jazz, combining to extremes to create something that it the most amazing music ever created is in my opinion a good idea and I think this could be one answer.

I'm sorry but you have just described straight ahead jazz. Listen to the Mingus big band, Modern Jazz Quartet, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Gerry Mulligan (who does COUNTERPOINT with the freakin lead, so awesome), Thelonious Monk, Carmen McRae, Wynford and Branford Marsalis, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Duke Ellington, Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers, and Kenny G. (just kidding)

Well ask any of thoose to improvise something that sounds as mathematical and perfect as Spastic Ink then... It can't be done.

I think what you are missing about jazz is that in a true jazz ensemble, everybody is improvising all at once, but it sounds like they practiced it that way. So when you listen to jazz, try to figure out with you ear what is being improvised. If a majority of a song by those above artists sounds like they played it off a page, they did their job because they are supposed to improvise things that sound just as solid as if they sat down and composed it. AND, THE INTERACTION!!! Listen for all the players interacting with eachother. Its very subtle and easy to miss. The drummer will echo on the cymbal some rhythmic thing that the soloist did the last phrase, or the bass will copy or stretch out a melodic fragment of the solo. Or sometimes the bass and drums will interact, or the piano and the soloists... I mean, there's an infinite amount of possibilities in EACH moment! In the best jazz this interaction is supposed to be happening all throughout the performance, so listen hard for it. That's the thing about jazz you have to listen HARD, you have to concentrate on it if you want to understand it. If you can start to hear jazz differently I think it will change your perspective. JMHO

All this is good and I think that it is great but as I said they only hold a part of a greater thing, once you manage to combine several elements like composing, improvisation, heaviness, softness,atonality, harmony, dissonance, growly vocals, clean vocals etc. then you will get music that has the ability to do anything you wanto. If Allan Holdsworth one day wanted to create a suffocation styled song and if suffocation wanted to play like Holdsworth then none of them could pull it off. A Death Jazz bands like Cynic could however do both and therein lies a greatness.

I should clarify that my post wasn't meant to say that technicality in music is a bad thing by any means. It was meant to make a point that technicality and complexity aren't the only supreme components of music.

I agree fully to this but want to point out that technicality and complexity do however have an important role to play in music but I think that we all agree on that.

[DWBass]

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/502/david_walmsley.html

This is my MP3.com page. There are only 2 full tunes and a short bass solo. Nothing fancy and I don't claim to be a virtuoso.

[Jazz]

Okay Coypu,

I think I understand a bit better what you are meaning now. This will be my last post because after this, I think that both of us will have pretty completely expressed our positions.

Originally posted by Coypu
Let us say that you have a 10 peice band and one day the bassplayer says "Let us improvise something in the vein of Theory In Practice and let the bass double the guitar in the first part". Ok, this is impossible to do if you are going to improvise all and just the part where 2 musicians are going to play the same thing for a while is impossible if you are going to play something in the vein of Technical metal. This is where I want composition to have a place, composing parts of the song allows you to create anything you like and by adding some improvisation you can also get some freeform into the music that allows to be more free.

Jazz does this all the time! I have to wonder if we are listening to the same music. Jazz composition is just as advanced as composition in any other music, scholarly or otherwise. What you are talking about is arranging, and jazz arranging is an art in itself. Don't be fooled by the simplicity of the page in a fake book. Dizzy Gillespie, Charles Mingus, Gerry Mulligan, and pretty much most straight ahead guys created arrangements of songs that are much different (and much more complicated) than what a fake book says. A jazz composer has the complete freedom to make any combination he wants of completely composed and completely free moments (and every degree in between) in his/her songs. And, most jazz musicians will improvise over anything that is written down, so even over completely composed moments you will get a spontaneous interpretation of that particular arrangement.

Originally posted by Coypu
Well ask any of thoose to improvise something that sounds as mathematical and perfect as Spastic Ink then... It can't be done.

Okay, I keep giving you specifics on why I don't think deathmetal has anything to offer jazz, and you keep giving me stuff like this. That's a really vague statement. HOW is DM more mathematical and "perfect" than jazz? I mean, I've already showed you how "mathematical" jazz is, in fact its one of the MOST mathematical and precise musics out there. I have even more examples to give you of this, but I will spare you. Also you are the only one hearing Spastick Ink as "perfect". The fact is any of those performers improvised things that were AT LEAST just as mathematical and "perfect" as Spastic Ink.

Originally posted by Coypu
All this is good and I think that it is great but as I said they only hold a part of a greater thing, once you manage to combine several elements like composing, improvisation, heaviness, softness,atonality, harmony, dissonance, growly vocals, clean vocals etc.

Jazz has EVERY SINGLE THING YOU MENTIONED IN THERE. Even the growly vocals, though screaming is admittedly not a common thing in jazz. In fact, screaming vocals is the only thing that I can think of that DM has that jazz doesn't. The truth is, you aren't hearing jazz on its own terms. If I listen to deathmetal and judge it by how it sounds to me, I am obviously going to hear it as inferior because I like jazz and I don't like deathmetal. But if I listen harder and analyze, I will be able to get a clearer picture of what deathmetal is beyond whether or not I like it. You keep saying "complexity", "technicality", and "composition" but the truth is you are not hearing that jazz has EVERY SINGLE THING that you have been wishing that it has. Just because they don't present those things in a style you like (screaming vocals, heavy distortion) doesn't mean those things aren't represented. I already told you what it would take for deathmetal to become fusion, and you said it was impossible, so its a moot point anyway. You can't just add improvisation to a style of music and call it "fusion", because there is so much more to jazz than just improv.

If you have a response of course I'll read it, but I feel that I have expressed my opinions pretty well.

That being said, I really enjoyed this discussion Coypu, and I respect you for stickin to your guns. I guess we can just agree to disagree! :D

[Pharaohrock]

I note you're from Sweden. Could you enlighten us on some great jazz musicians from Sweden perhaps? All the bands you mention don't seem to be Swedish. I'd like to hear about something from Sweden if you'd care to indulge us...

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
Okay Coypu,

I think I understand a bit better what you are meaning now. This will be my last post because after this, I think that both of us will have pretty completely expressed our positions.

Jazz does this all the time! I have to wonder if we are listening to the same music. Jazz composition is just as advanced as composition in any other music, scholarly or otherwise. What you are talking about is arranging, and jazz arranging is an art in itself. Don't be fooled by the simplicity of the page in a fake book. Dizzy Gillespie, Charles Mingus, Gerry Mulligan, and pretty much most straight ahead guys created arrangements of songs that are much different (and much more complicated) than what a fake book says. A jazz composer has the complete freedom to make any combination he wants of completely composed and completely free moments (and every degree in between) in his/her songs. And, most jazz musicians will improvise over anything that is written down, so even over completely composed moments you will get a spontaneous interpretation of that particular arrangement.



Okay, I keep giving you specifics on why I don't think deathmetal has anything to offer jazz, and you keep giving me stuff like this. That's a really vague statement. HOW is DM more mathematical and "perfect" than jazz? I mean, I've already showed you how "mathematical" jazz is, in fact its one of the MOST mathematical and precise musics out there. I have even more examples to give you of this, but I will spare you. Also you are the only one hearing Spastick Ink as "perfect". The fact is any of those performers improvised things that were AT LEAST just as mathematical and "perfect" as Spastic Ink.



Jazz has EVERY SINGLE THING YOU MENTIONED IN THERE. Even the growly vocals, though screaming is admittedly not a common thing in jazz. In fact, screaming vocals is the only thing that I can think of that DM has that jazz doesn't. The truth is, you aren't hearing jazz on its own terms. If I listen to deathmetal and judge it by how it sounds to me, I am obviously going to hear it as inferior because I like jazz and I don't like deathmetal. But if I listen harder and analyze, I will be able to get a clearer picture of what deathmetal is beyond whether or not I like it. You keep saying "complexity", "technicality", and "composition" but the truth is you are not hearing that jazz has EVERY SINGLE THING that you have been wishing that it has. Just because they don't present those things in a style you like (screaming vocals, heavy distortion) doesn't mean those things aren't represented. I already told you what it would take for deathmetal to become fusion, and you said it was impossible, so its a moot point anyway. You can't just add improvisation to a style of music and call it "fusion", because there is so much more to jazz than just improv.

If you have a response of course I'll read it, but I feel that I have expressed my opinions pretty well.

That being said, I really enjoyed this discussion Coypu, and I respect you for stickin to your guns. I guess we can just agree to disagree! :D

Well I obviosly understand that thoose elements are in jazz but some things have been taken farther in DM like some DM drumming has done things unseen in jazz and vice versa. Samething with bass, I have never heard a bassplayer in jazz who can play up to speed with Chris Richards and I have only heard 1 DM bassplayer who can play jazz bass solos perfectly. You say that jazz have growly vocals but hardly anything close to the inhaled guttural vocals of Matti Way in Disgorge and so forth. What I'm saying is that the genres should be learning from each other and adapt the things that can improve the music for the better. If you have no interest in hearing a band that has the best of DM and jazz together then you should not listen to it but I personally think that the territory is very unexplored and has alot o potential.

To conclude : The genres should learn from each other in order to improve and finding new elements and ways to go.

So how is Spastic Ink more mathematically perfect than jazz? Well, probaly because the music is 0% improvised and have beenpracticed til perfection. I have never heard anything of the kind in jazz but if you know anything then let me know because I look for more of the kind.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/502/david_walmsley.html

This is my MP3.com page. There are only 2 full tunes and a short bass solo. Nothing fancy and I don't claim to be a virtuoso.

I downloaded the bass solo and it was pretty nice, I shall get the songs later since I'm on a modem now. If you have some time over and want to check out bassclips from most of my favorite metal and fusion bassplayers then go to my site : http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/ I have tabs to for some spastic ink and atheist if you feel like playing along. Check out Sean Malone who is my favorite at the moment,

I'm going to upload an old bassclip I made a year ago later so you can hear some of my playing. Just need to get back to my old computer first.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
I note you're from Sweden. Could you enlighten us on some great jazz musicians from Sweden perhaps? All the bands you mention don't seem to be Swedish. I'd like to hear about something from Sweden if you'd care to indulge us...

I don't really listen to swedish jazz at all, the town where I live have no jazz scene at all so whenever I get jazz it is mostly from internet sources which often seem to lead to other countries. I could however recomend you a shitload of DM bands since sweden is along with America the most important countries in the genre. But I will ask my cousins man whenever I meet him since he is a jazz guitarplayer and knows swedish jazz inside out.

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Coypu


Well I obviosly understand that thoose elements are in jazz but some things have been taken farther in DM like some DM drumming has done things unseen in jazz and vice versa. Samething with bass, I have never heard a bassplayer in jazz who can play up to speed with Chris Richards and I have only heard 1 DM bassplayer who can play jazz bass solos perfectly.


So you're saying that, let's see............Victor Wooten, Bill Dickens, Brian Bromberg or even Jeff Berlin couldn't play as well (or fast) as Chris Richards? I need proof my brother!!

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
So you're saying that, let's see............Victor Wooten, Bill Dickens, Brian Bromberg or even Jeff Berlin couldn't play as well (or fast) as Chris Richards? I need proof my brother!!

Well, As far as fingerplaying goes yes. Wooten and his fellow slappers are very fast but not when it comes to fingerplaying. Jeff Berlin is as far as I know a strict 2 finger player or max 3. He is very fast but when it comes to right hand speed I have never heard any of thoose guys play as fast as Chris Richards. Just listen to Torn Into Enthrallment by Suffocation to get an example of how fast he is. I have never heard any of thoose guys fingerplay that fast.

Suffocation - Torn Into Enthrallment (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Suffocation%20-%20Torn%20into%20enthrallment.mp3)

And it is not just playing super fast for a short period, it is also the stamina it takes to play a hour long gig with songs like this. As a bassplayer you must know that it takes alot of stamina to be able to play really fast alot. If you have no idea then try to play some Cannibal Corpse songs for an hour and see how your hands feel.

[DWBass]

Okay, there were sections where he played really fast and in the context of the music, it fits. As far as other bassists being able to play that fast, I'll have to go through my bass cd collection and see if I can find an example for you. :)


Okay, I went through just a couple of cd's and found a couple of guys for you. You probably know them already. T.M. Stevens and Adam Nitti. Now, I hear what you're saying about Death Metal bassists in general but I will say that although they are very good and exceptional in their techniques and style, I bet a good percentage couldn't play funk or latin with any conviction! They probably could play jazz 'technically' but not freeform jazz (I feel the same way about the Japanese). If they can, give me some examples. Gary Willis and Jeff Berlin, in my opinion, would have no problem keeping up! Show me a DM bassist who can play with the creativity of a Victor Wooten. Or a Marcus Miller. While all the Death Metal bassists are very good, I think they are stuck in rut musically and maybe they need to explore other musics and styles. There's more to just playing 100+ notes in a measure. It gets boring!

[Coypu]

Adam Nitti is a incredible bassplayer that master most playing styles, his fastest stuff that I have heard was however tapping and not fingerstyle but since I haven't heard alot of his work it would be good if you could point out a fingerplayed song with Chris Richards speed.

I hear what you're saying about Death Metal bassists in general but I will say that although they are very good and exceptional in their techniques and style, I bet a good percentage couldn't play funk or latin with any conviction! They probably could play jazz 'technically' but not freeform jazz (I feel the same way about the Japanese). If they can, give me some examples. Gary Willis and Jeff Berlin, in my opinion, would have no problem keeping up! Show me a DM bassist who can play with the creativity of a Victor Wooten. Or a Marcus Miller. While all the Death Metal bassists are very good, I think they are stuck in rut musically and maybe they need to explore other musics and styles. There's more to just playing 100+ notes in a measure. It gets boring!

First let me make sure that you understand that the avarage DM bassplayer is a crappy pick player who plays roots and use enough distortion to ruin the tone and get buried under the guitars. The good ones however are up there with the best of the best. Sean Malone is a prime example of a bassplayer who can keep up with any one (he was in the DM band Cynic).

http://www.seanmalone.net/Vault/Photos/MalWillis.jpg

Then we have Atheist bassplayer Roger Patterson (RIP) who was the most creative bassplayer I have ever run across. He was completely self taught and had a 5 finger playing tecnique which he used to reach speeds the only jazzplayers can dream off. He was tragically lost in a vehicle accident before he reach his full potential. Then we have Tony Choy of Atheist & Cynic who actually played latin, funk & jazz in several bands and also as a pro studio musician later on so he had that bit down to and also had the ability to keep up with the speed of Roger Patterson. Tony had a 4 finger approach and also a tecnique similar to gary willis 3 finger stringcrossing tecnique. There are more examples but theese guys where amazing.

If we look at other forms of metal then things get nasty pretty quickly with guys like Lars K Norberg of Spiral Architect and Pete Perez, Doug Keyser of spastic ink & Watchtower. Theese guys have written basslines far more interesting than Wooten for example that eventhough did alot for slapping has music that really isn't that amazing once you scale away the flashy tecniques. Listen however to a Watchtower song to see some amazing basslines.

Gary Willis is however the bassplayer I am most impressed by along with Sean Malone so things look bright for technical metal, death metal, fusion & prog rock/metal as far as bassplaying goes. Jazz on the other hand seem to have fallen behind.

But since you seem to have given Chris some shit for playing only fast and not much more you should understand that Suffocation at that time period strived to not become to technical since they always wanted to make good music and not venture out to much and loose focus. But here is an older song that is byfar more creative eventhough they where pretty new on their instruments at this time and the production is rough : Epitaph of the credolous (http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/ChrisEpitaphOfTheCredulous.mp3)

[clifton]

Complexity and speed are not necessarily synonymous. As an example, let me refer to virtually any Monk composition. Few of his compositions sound complex on the surface. However, the accents and note placements of Monk's music are very exacting, very precise. Check out "Nutty", "Evidence", and "Criss Cross" in particular. "Criss Cross" has a six bar bridge, a real trap for the unwary improviser. And just because sophisticated musicians make it sound easy, that doesn't make it easy. (I've played Monk tunes; they're also full of silences in unexpected places, the complexity is only apparent when you're deeply inside the music). Also listen to Ornette Coleman's music. It's very melodic but its structure is extremely rigorous, requiring great musical knowledge; harmony is dependent on improvised melody, for example. Very often, great music makes complexity sound simple and accessible. I offer these points to suggest that different musics may require different ways of listening. I've been listening to music for a long time, and I played music until I became disabled. But it's only now that I've reflected and realized these points.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by clifton
Complexity and speed are not necessarily synonymous. As an example, let me refer to virtually any Monk composition. Few of his compositions sound complex on the surface. However, the accents and note placements of Monk's music are very exacting, very precise. Check out "Nutty", "Evidence", and "Criss Cross" in particular. "Criss Cross" has a six bar bridge, a real trap for the unwary improviser. And just because sophisticated musicians make it sound easy, that doesn't make it easy. (I've played Monk tunes; they're also full of silences in unexpected places, the complexity is only apparent when you're deeply inside the music). Also listen to Ornette Coleman's music. It's very melodic but its structure is extremely rigorous, requiring great musical knowledge; harmony is dependent on improvised melody, for example. Very often, great music makes complexity sound simple and accessible. I offer these points to suggest that different musics may require different ways of listening. I've been listening to music for a long time, and I played music until I became disabled. But it's only now that I've reflected and realized these points.

I agree that some music is harder that it seems and vice versa and that DM is not always complex music. Suffocation are not very advanced theoretically but the music is still very hard to play and maybe even harder than Monks work for a bassplayer. When it comes to bassplaying speed is something that is very hard to learn to play well. An easy example would be the song Satanic Blood by Von, the song is one super simple riff played only played 70+ times in the song and then it ends. The song is as easy as it can get except for the fact that it takes alot of stamina to play this song repeated times in a row, therein lies apart of the diffuculty when it comes to bassplaying. Even the one dimension and by jazz standards simple band Cannibal Corpse have songs that many jazz bassplayers couldn't play just because they are so fast. Surely it takes alot more from your brain to play an advanced jazz song but if your hands can't play it then it doesn't matter how much theory you know. Practically all of the best DM bassplayers can play jazz as well since almost all played in Death-Jazz bands and combined the best of 2 worlds. But I know what you are getting at and I have on many occations discoverd how hard it can be to play some stuff that sound pretty simple but was far more complex that it sounded so I agree with what you wrote but I just wanted to point out a few things from a bass perspective.

[DWBass]

Sigh!!:(

[Jazz]

Originally posted by clifton
Very often, great music makes complexity sound simple and accessible.

Very, very well put.

I'm coming out of retirement on this thread to say something that other people are too polite to say.

Coypu, you aren't listening to anything we're saying, not a word. You also don't know as much as you think you know, because some of us have gotten very specific as to what we like about jazz, and the elements that come together to make jazz. Instead of countering us with your own specifics about deathmetal, you make value statements. All I know about deathmetal now is that its very fast, the musicians practice it alot, and that YOU consider it to be "perfect" and "technical", and that somehow those things make deathmetal better than jazz.

Some examples from your last couple of posts:

Originally posted by Coypu
Then we have Atheist bassplayer Roger Patterson (RIP) who was the most creative bassplayer I have ever run across. He was completely self taught and had a 5 finger playing tecnique which he used to reach speeds the only jazzplayers can dream off.

Okay, that doesn't tell me HOW he was so creative, just that he had a 5 finger walking technique and that he was self taught. Those things in themselves are nice, but it doesn't say anything about the content of his actual MUSIC. Speed also has nothing to do with creativity. Anybody can learn to play really fast. Anybody.

Originally posted by Coypu
Then we have Tony Choy of Atheist & Cynic who actually played latin, funk & jazz in several bands and also as a pro studio musician later on so he had that bit down to and also had the ability to keep up with the speed of Roger Patterson.

Again, I know nothing of Tony Choy's music from this response. Only that he was a studio musician, and could play fast. Supposedly he could play jazz, but many people THINK they can play jazz great when they really have no idea that they are nowhere close.

Originally posted by Coypu
If we look at other forms of metal then things get nasty pretty quickly with guys like Lars K Norberg of Spiral Architect and Pete Perez, Doug Keyser of spastic ink & Watchtower. Theese guys have written basslines far more interesting than Wooten for example that eventhough did alot for slapping has music that really isn't that amazing once you scale away the flashy tecniques.

That's just a value statement. Just because you don't find Wooten interesting doesn't mean his basslines aren't musically valid. It also doesn't mean that Wooten's basslines aren't MORE musically valid than any deathmetal bass player's. Also, if I were you I wouldn't talk about "flashy techniques" when so far all you've specifically said about the value of deathmetal basslines refer to how fast they are.

Originally posted by Coypu
Gary Willis is however the bassplayer I am most impressed by along with Sean Malone so things look bright for technical metal, death metal, fusion & prog rock/metal as far as bassplaying goes. Jazz on the other hand seem to have fallen behind.

What? Nothing that you said before that mentions anything that even remotely convinces me that jazz has "fallen behind". At this point you've only talked about speed, and tempo is only ONE element of music. If deathmetal is only focused on ONE element of music how good can it be? Jazz focuses on more elements of music than you care to admit.

Originally posted by Coypu
Suffocation are not very advanced theoretically but the music is still very hard to play and maybe even harder than Monks work for a bassplayer.

HOW IS IT HARD? Is it just the speed? Is that it? You know, the basics of jazz are pretty hard to conquer, but they are still just the basics. If ALL a jazz bassplayer is doing is keeping time and outlining harmonies he is not doing his job very well.

I'm going to reply to this next quote with a value statement of my own.
Originally posted by Coypu
Practically all of the best DM bassplayers can play jazz as well since almost all played in Death-Jazz bands and combined the best of 2 worlds.

First off, what does that have to do with anything? They can play jazz, so that makes deathmetal better? If a jazz musician can also play Strauss does that make Strauss any less? Its the musical CONTENT we are talking about here...

Secondly, there is NO SUCH THING as Death-Jazz. You yourself said it was impossible. Music that uses ONE or only a FEW elements of jazz (i.e. improvisation, jazz harmonies) does not instantly qualify it as a fusion.

I just want you to know that although I do disagree with your position on death-jazz, its really not THAT opinion which is getting my goat. It is really how easily you are ignoring the things which I am saying. All of my posts stand as being very specific on what I percieve to be the virtues of jazz music, but I feel that you have not addressed the specifics which I have given you.

Anyways, all that being said, I hope these words did not offend, and if they did I hope you can forgive my lack of tact. I don't want you to think that because you like another style of music more than jazz that you aren't welcome here, because you are welcome here (in my vote). Its always nice to chat with anyone who is willing to talk about jazz, even if its not their favorite music.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
Coypu, you aren't listening to anything we're saying, not a word. You also don't know as much as you think you know, because some of us have gotten very specific as to what we like about jazz, and the elements that come together to make jazz. Instead of countering us with your own specifics about deathmetal, you make value statements. All I know about deathmetal now is that its very fast, the musicians practice it alot, and that YOU consider it to be "perfect" and "technical", and that somehow those things make deathmetal better than jazz.

I don't claim that DM is better than jazz, I do feel like some parts of DM are stronger than jazz and also that some jazz elements are stronger than DM. Some specific areas would be agression, this is obviously just opinion since you can't measure it or explain it with music theory, this is practically the total phenomena with DM, it is freeform written down. The riffs doesn't have to make any sense theoretically and the musicians are completely free to just write according to the ear, this is why it is hard to explain what the bands are doing mor than that they play fast, are heavy as hell and has a shitload of aggression. With jazz you can 'always' rip out the theory book and explain what you think is good about the individual band/artist.

Do you want me to say stuff like this? : "Oh, I like suffocation alot because their use of a syncopated half-time shuffle pattern using the A harmonic scale in the song Catakonia... etc?

?

Okay, that doesn't tell me HOW he was so creative, just that he had a 5 finger walking technique and that he was self taught. Those things in themselves are nice, but it doesn't say anything about the content of his actual MUSIC. Speed also has nothing to do with creativity. Anybody can learn to play really fast. Anybody.

He was the first bassplayer in DM who wrote basslines that stood out from the guitars, he created the whole modern DM bassplaying style and he used his bass uniquly. I can't explain it with theory but I can post soundsamples that you can compare with any old DM that you can find. But you can sum it up with that they started to all play different things and they where the first in DM to do this well. Since he didn't know any theory it is hard to say anything else than explaining his tecnique and showing some soundclips.

http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/RogerUnholyWar.mp3
http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/RogerIDeny.mp3

Again, I know nothing of Tony Choy's music from this response. Only that he was a studio musician, and could play fast. Supposedly he could play jazz, but many people THINK they can play jazz great when they really have no idea that they are nowhere close.

Okay, I don't know enough about Tony Choy to satisfy your needs. But if you want to know about Sean Malone then look here :

http://www.seanmalone.net/Biography/GKBio.html

http://www.stick.com/features/artist/

http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/SeanControversy.mp3

http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/SeanFrames.mp3

http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/SeanTextures.mp3

http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/SeanUroboricForms.mp3

happy?

That's just a value statement. Just because you don't find Wooten interesting doesn't mean his basslines aren't musically valid. It also doesn't mean that Wooten's basslines aren't MORE musically valid than any deathmetal bass player's. Also, if I were you I wouldn't talk about "flashy techniques" when so far all you've specifically said about the value of deathmetal basslines refer to how fast they are.

Yup that was a value statement and I can see how some people disagree but before YOU do I must recomend you to listen to Watchtower and Spastic Ink.

The mad data race (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spastik%20Ink%20-%20Ink%20Complete%20(1997)/spastic%20ink%20-%20the%20mad%20data%20race.mp3)

mayday in kiev (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spastik%20Ink%20-%20Ink%20Complete%20(1997)/watchtower%20-%20Mayday%20in%20Kiev.mp3)

To counter & groove in e minor (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spastik%20Ink%20-%20Ink%20Complete%20(1997)/spastic%20ink%20-%20To%20Counter%20And%20Groove%20In%20E%20Minor.mp 3) - if you didn't like the first spastic song try this one since it has pretty simple counterpoint and a overall easy and happy sound.

What? Nothing that you said before that mentions anything that even remotely convinces me that jazz has "fallen behind". At this point you've only talked about speed, and tempo is only ONE element of music. If deathmetal is only focused on ONE element of music how good can it be? Jazz focuses on more elements of music than you care to admit.

OK, why don't you show me some amazing jazz bassplaying that have been recorded lately and see if it match up with the progressive metal elite...

HOW IS IT HARD? Is it just the speed? Is that it? You know, the basics of jazz are pretty hard to conquer, but they are still just the basics. If ALL a jazz bassplayer is doing is keeping time and outlining harmonies he is not doing his job very well.

Well Suffocation is hard to play just for the speed, the improvised stick solo in Cynic is however both hard to play for the speed but also for the theory you need to know in order to play it. Suffocation is only a band that came up because I made an example that DM have the fastest bassplayers. The band is not the most advanced in DM by a long shot so don't focus to much on the band for now.

First off, what does that have to do with anything? They can play jazz, so that makes deathmetal better? If a jazz musician can also play Strauss does that make Strauss any less? Its the musical CONTENT we are talking about here...

Diversity, it is better to be able to play both jazz and death metal than just jazz. They have the ability to combine both and therefor be able to play a wider range of music.

Secondly, there is NO SUCH THING as Death-Jazz. You yourself said it was impossible. Music that uses ONE or only a FEW elements of jazz (i.e. improvisation, jazz harmonies) does not instantly qualify it as a fusion.

death-jazz is the common term for describing bands like Atheist & Cynic, they are very clearly not pure DM bands and especially Cynic have lots of jazz influences and they all know how to play jazz. If you are in doubt you should listen to the album Cortland by Sean Malone which is a jazz album featuring the bassplayer and drummer from Cynic. If you don't like the term Death-jazz then come up with a better one.

I just want you to know that although I do disagree with your position on death-jazz, its really not THAT opinion which is getting my goat. It is really how easily you are ignoring the things which I am saying. All of my posts stand as being very specific on what I percieve to be the virtues of jazz music, but I feel that you have not addressed the specifics which I have given you.

You are usually saying that jazz contains all elements in music and maybe it does. What I'm saying is that DM do however master some things better when it comes to heaviness, anger, darkness and such emotions. Am I missing the point here? Am I wrong?

Anyways, all that being said, I hope these words did not offend, and if they did I hope you can forgive my lack of tact. I don't want you to think that because you like another style of music more than jazz that you aren't welcome here, because you are welcome here (in my vote). Its always nice to chat with anyone who is willing to talk about jazz, even if its not their favorite music. [/B]

I am of the same opinion.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
Sigh!!:(

I know you didn't get the reply you was hoping for but it is hard to explain some things. Listen to theese songs/clips from progressive players and maybe you will understand abit more about what I'm saying :

http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Cortlandt%20-01-%20Controversy.mp3

http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spiral%20Architect%20-%20A%20Sceptics%20Universe%20-%2005%20-%20Insect.mp3

http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/aghora%20-%20satya.mp3

http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/watchtower%20-%20Dangerous%20Toy.mp3

http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/PeteMosquitoBrainSurgery.mp3

http://medieteknik.bth.se/joba01/sound/JohnYtseJam.mp3

http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/Bass/Manring-MonkeyBusinessMan.mp3

..

When are you going to show me a song that has faster fingerplay that Chris Richards? I'm still eagerly awaiting it.

[DWBass]

At this point, I'm not interested in showing you anything since you'll shoot it down anyway. You are being a little to single minded for this discussion. You are literally ignoring and discarding all we are saying to you. What is this fixation on speed? And what does that have to do with jazz? Sean Malone saw the light and decided to explore! Why can't you? Open your mind, dude! You keep pointing us to mp3's of super fast Death Metal. We're listening to them but we're not seeing the connection you see. Speed and theory do not make jazz. Hell, pop song writers know theory. Theory is also not meant just for advanced players. It's for all musicians. Come over to our side of town and absorb the diversity. Maybe it'll help you to see the light. I'm glad you love Death Metal. Lord know's they need fans like you. Aside from the vocals, I would validate it as pretty good music. I even like Dream Theatre, which may not be DM but it is progressive rock and the players are all top notch. John Myung is also a pretty good bassist and can play arpeggios with the best of them. Mike Portnoy would probably kick any DM drummers asses! Probably some jazzers too for that matter. I could run down a list of some major kickass players but what's the point? They probably wouldn't meet your approval. Keep your DM. I listened to those mp3's and yes that stuff is way more palatable than straight up DM! I can get into that and it is enjoyable to listen to the bassists playing ultra fast. Manring is not a DM bassist so what's the connection?

[Coypu]

Manring played in Attention deficit with the guitarplayer from the death/thrash band Testament and he might even be on the new spastic ink album so he is definately related to many genres including death/thrash/technical metal.

I'm not close minded just because I have shown you that some death metal bassplayers are fast. What I always try to make you understand is that I want bassplayers like Sean Malone who can do both while you seem to defy sheer speed and fail to realise that speed has a part in music just as slow has. I like Jazz, Death, Fusion, Prog and lots and lots of genres and I try to learn them all. I'm currently learning to improvise over chords using Gary Willis fingerboard harmony book and I try to embrace all tecniques that I can find. I might not be Sean Malone but I do my best to improve as a player and if I just had the attitude that speed is pointless then I would also have to avoid certain styles of music and that is in my book not a good thing. I like Myung too, he is a great player for sure and the music has alot incommon with the music I love the most. Myung was even on Sean Malones first Gordian Knot album as a guest player. I have embraced jazz as a player and hopefully more jazz players will start to embrace Death.

[DWBass]

Well, I wish you the best of luck in your quest to become the fastest bassist in the Universe!


Peace;)

[Giant Steps]

I'd like to shake your hand, jazz.

-GS-

[jazzypaul]

This is my issue with Copyu as a whole: if it's not death metal, it's not worth listening to, in his opinion. He has been on record as saying that Ben Webster isn't worth listening to! He doesn't appreciate improvisation, and by far and wide, when speaking in terms of technique, he has no idea what he is talking about (in a discussion about polyrhythms, he showed me an MP3 of a guy playing a tune in 7/8). There is no glory to death-jazz as long as the death end of it doesn't appreciate the jazz end of it. It's bad enough that the public school system in this country doesn't teach our youth about jazz, but then to say that Atheist and Cynic are some sort of jazz fusion? That's ignorant and irresponsible to the memories and legacies of people who have been my heroes, my teachers and in some very fortunate circumstances, my friends.

Insofar as the situation of aggression is concerned, have you ever HEARD Charles Mingus? That guy was the original punk rocker a couple of DECADES before punk rock, and some of his music would make these death metal guys look like granola eating hippies. Especially considering that these guys have the luxury of playing through half-stacks and with distortion pedals. Mingus had none of this and still created soundscapes so filled with anger and dread that it sends shivers up my spine. So, let's hear your beloved Cynic in the same acoustic setting. Just a bunch of growling and double-picking then, isn't it? And, by the way, as long as any of your death-metal guys are using power chords AT ALL, don't you dare talk to me about technique and theory. Parallel fifths are amongst the absolute music theory no-no's and these people use them constantly.

I've seen your posts before Copyu, and you've seen mine. You know where I'm coming from, and usually, I'm far more liberal on my stances on jazz than this. But I cannot and will not have some one telling me that anything to do with metal or pop music in general is more challenging to the ear, brain or heart than jazz. Because it's a lie. If you have issues with Ben Webster improvising, then that is YOUR problem, not mine. When your boys in the death metal scene can play with the VARIETY of emotion and dynamic control and tempo, we'll talk.

And shut up with the speed argument. Yes, of course they're playing fast, they're playing 16th notes, with a quarter note value of 160. Let's see them tackle Giant Steps, at more than twice that tempo. Trane blows off a couple of 16th note lines at that pace. Let's see your boys IMPROVISE that stuff. It won't happen.

[Coypu]

Answer this :

* If I don't appreciate improvisation then why on earth am I a fan of Allan Holdsworth? Why do I all the time say that death metal could use more improvisation etc.???

* If Cynic isn't a fusion of jazz then what fusion are they then? They are obviously not pure DM and their bassplayer is heavily into jazz, the guitarplayers are highly influenced by Allan Holdsworth as an example.

Charles Mingus more aggresive than DM? Yeah sure, the song New Fables really put Concatenation so shame huh? I bet alot that you have no idea what song I'm talking about but that is ok because I already know that you don't know alot about DM judging by your comments. Cynic are far more advanced than Mingus ever was and they can keep up with any band on earth. Listen to the bands that features Cynic memembers like Aghora, Gordian Knot, Spastic Ink, Cortland etc. Theese guys can play anything from jazz to death metal and they are alone in the world to have the ability to pull that off. Charles Mingus could never play death metal and we all know it. But if you want to dig deep into anger and despair then Immolation and Burzum really are the best bands to get into. Burzum especially since he guy behind the band really took things seriously and did all the things all other bands only claimed to do, he is now in jail for 25 years for murder and church burnings, Mingus is like Ghandi compared to him and his music.

If we look at giant steps for bassplaying then you will find the tempo around 280 bpm but then we are talking about 8th notes (and 8th note triplets on rare occation) if we look at john patituccis version as an example. That leaves you at a speed of 140bpm if you use 16th notes, not much compared to the spastic ink bass solo at 178bpm (16th notes).

[DWBass]

Yeah.........what jazzypaul said!!


I'd like to hear them play Teen Town with the ferocity of Jaco or even Marcus Miller's version. How about Monk? Talk about off the beaten path. Can they even comprehend what these guys are about? But to say that jazz should be non-improvisational is crazy to say the least.

On the flip side, I believe that everyone has the right to fight for what they believe in and the right to live their lives the way they want. If there weren't people/fans like Copyu, there wouldn't be Death Metal and those who love it. It's different but not for everyone. Just don't tell me I'm lost for not indulging in the genre. When you get my age, you'll be much wiser and will probably be having the same arguments with folks who are your age now. ;)

Peace

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
Yeah.........what jazzypaul said!!


I'd like to hear them play Teen Town with the ferocity of Jaco or even Marcus Miller's version. How about Monk? Talk about off the beaten path. Can they even comprehend what these guys are about? But to say that jazz should be non-improvisational is crazy to say the least.

On the flip side, I believe that everyone has the right to fight for what they believe in and the right to live their lives the way they want. If there weren't people/fans like Copyu, there wouldn't be Death Metal and those who love it. It's different but not for everyone. Just don't tell me I'm lost for not indulging in the genre. When you get my age, you'll be much wiser and will probably be having the same arguments with folks who are your age now. ;)

Peace

Sean of Cynic can play Jacos stuff any way he wants to, he even wrote a book called 'A portrait of Jaco : The solos collection' This book contains transcriptions and analyses of 13 solos. Each analysis discuss salient structural and stylistic features, and the book as a whole traces the development of Jaco's improvisational language.

I don't think that age is an issue, I have meet open and close minded people at all ages and some death metal musicians are around 40 so I don't think that it is a matter of age but more of how open you are as a person to new things.

[jazzypaul]

Copyu you ignorant slut...

Allan Holdsworth is a great guitarist. But much like Coryell (who's early stuff I love, love, love) or even John mcLaughlin to a lesser extent, they're all rock guitarists who got too good to play pop music and forgot about that whole living in obscurity thing that comes with being a jazz musician.

Steely Dan and Stevie Wonder were (are) both into jazz as well, and utilize jazz voicings to a far greater extent than anything I've ever heard by Athiest or Cynic. When we call Steely Dan and Stevie Wonder fusion, you can call your bands death fusion. Till then, it's just a bunch of long hairs who know that the 7th should be utilized in a chord.

New Fables wasn't exactly what I was getting at, and it's a weak example, as well as proof that you, as a bass player, have not heard enough of his work. Kind of like a tenor player not listening to Coltrane. And don't give me this nonsense about not listening to what you don't like. As a musician, it is your job to know the entirety of the history that has come before you, or at least get close to it. I was referring to works like Don't Let it Happen Here, Ecclusiastics, or Haitian Fight Song. Mingus was a bad ass, made more bad by the fact that he did it unamplified. Once again, when your guys get so bad that they can produce the volume and "aggression" that they do amplified on all acoustic instruments, call me. Until then, it's a bunch of growling, whining swedes and south floridians growling to make up for the fact that they lack pitch.

The fact that you are missing is that the bpm doesn't slow down just because there is further subdivision of the note. Therefore, when Trane is playing Giant Steps at 254 bpm, it means those 16th notes are shooting by at 1016bpm. Which means that your precious spastic ink would be left in the dust. If you're going to discuss music theory, either know theory or don't discuss it with jazz musicians who all know and teach this stuff...

[DWBass]

Well said jazzypaul. Maybe I'm just saying it wrong!!:D

[jazzypaul]

awww shucks. thanks. :D

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Copyu you ignorant slut...

Allan Holdsworth is a great guitarist. But much like Coryell (who's early stuff I love, love, love) or even John mcLaughlin to a lesser extent, they're all rock guitarists who got too good to play pop music and forgot about that whole living in obscurity thing that comes with being a jazz musician. And no he isn't even close to being a rock musician, guys like Paul Gilbert qualify as that, Holdsworth chordal playing and soloing is far more jazzy than rocky.

Steely Dan and Stevie Wonder were (are) both into jazz as well, and utilize jazz voicings to a far greater extent than anything I've ever heard by Athiest or Cynic. When we call Steely Dan and Stevie Wonder fusion, you can call your bands death fusion. Till then, it's just a bunch of long hairs who know that the 7th should be utilized in a chord.

New Fables wasn't exactly what I was getting at, and it's a weak example, as well as proof that you, as a bass player, have not heard enough of his work. Kind of like a tenor player not listening to Coltrane. And don't give me this nonsense about not listening to what you don't like. As a musician, it is your job to know the entirety of the history that has come before you, or at least get close to it. I was referring to works like Don't Let it Happen Here, Ecclusiastics, or Haitian Fight Song. Mingus was a bad ass, made more bad by the fact that he did it unamplified. Once again, when your guys get so bad that they can produce the volume and "aggression" that they do amplified on all acoustic instruments, call me. Until then, it's a bunch of growling, whining swedes and south floridians growling to make up for the fact that they lack pitch.

The fact that you are missing is that the bpm doesn't slow down just because there is further subdivision of the note. Therefore, when Trane is playing Giant Steps at 254 bpm, it means those 16th notes are shooting by at 1016bpm. Which means that your precious spastic ink would be left in the dust. If you're going to discuss music theory, either know theory or don't discuss it with jazz musicians who all know and teach this stuff...

Haha, I know that holdsworth played pop in his early days but he is byfar the nasties guitarplayer of all time and he is better than anyone in both jazz and Death Metal. I don't think that you need to live in misery to be a jazz musician, holdsworth is more fusion though but he is still the best.

So what genre are Cynic then???

Always judge a artist by his weakest work, I'm can proudly present any cynic song to you without bringing out excuses like "oh this is their weakest song", that is what quality is all about. If Mingus had weak songs then surely they must count to?
And what does it matter what tecnique you are using to create aggression? If you have a Furmula 1 car then it is faster than an old horse wagon nomatter how good the drivers are. Same thing here, distortion is a powerfull tool for aggression and since DM has it they have the ability to be far more aggressive sounding that Charles Mingus was. And yes I have heard plenty of his work and know that he was a badass who beat people up when they where silent during live performances and stuff like that. He still is like Ghandi compared to some of the black metal guys.

Okay, since you are being abit anal, The playing speed in the 178 thing is faster than the the playing speed in Giant Steps, end of story. And I don't think that you can compare Cynic with coltrane since they play different instruments but listen to the solo in I'm but a wave to at 250bpm or the 8 finger tapping solo in mosquito brain surgery to hear some matching stuff.

[jazzypaul]

I will only address a couple of points here...

1) I did not knock on Alan Holdsworth. Just said he wasn't a jazz guitarist in the traditional sense of the word.

2) Cynic would be a band that I would simply catagorize as death metal. Death was certainly a band on a similar plane from a technique perspective, and they are death metal, so why would we denegrate jazz by calling Cynic any sort of a jazz band, being that they don't improvise, don't use blue notes, and have no feeling of blues to what they play (the three main characteristics of jazz)

3) I never said that Mingus was weak, I said it was a poor example of aggressive playing. A man is not allowed humorous work because it is not "dark" enough? As for your comment about Formula 1 cars and horse drawn carriages, they wouldn't race. However, it would be a mistake to say that Al Unser Jr. is a badder guy than Willie Shoemaker. Put Al on a horse to see if he is a great all around racer. That is the point I am trying to make. Can your boys in the "black metal" game even ride horses? Because Mingus could.

4) I am not being anal about the midtempo music that your little pantywaists are playing. No matter how many 16th notes there are, listen to where the backbeat is at. That backbeat would be probably right around the 160 bpm range. And that stuff is all written out. And the whole "they play different instruments" argument is ridiculous. If these guys are as talented as you say they are, they can play Trane's stuff, or better yet, play on Trane's level with their own improvisations. But they haven't and probably won't.

When you have heard the entirety of the Mingus and Zorn catalogs, then you can tell me all about how these guys are better than Mingus and Zorn, if you think you can even pull off that argument, which you can't. But good luck.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I will only address a couple of points here...

1) I did not knock on Alan Holdsworth. Just said he wasn't a jazz guitarist in the traditional sense of the word.

2) Cynic would be a band that I would simply catagorize as death metal. Death was certainly a band on a similar plane from a technique perspective, and they are death metal, so why would we denegrate jazz by calling Cynic any sort of a jazz band, being that they don't improvise, don't use blue notes, and have no feeling of blues to what they play (the three main characteristics of jazz)

3) I never said that Mingus was weak, I said it was a poor example of aggressive playing. A man is not allowed humorous work because it is not "dark" enough? As for your comment about Formula 1 cars and horse drawn carriages, they wouldn't race. However, it would be a mistake to say that Al Unser Jr. is a badder guy than Willie Shoemaker. Put Al on a horse to see if he is a great all around racer. That is the point I am trying to make. Can your boys in the "black metal" game even ride horses? Because Mingus could.

4) I am not being anal about the midtempo music that your little pantywaists are playing. No matter how many 16th notes there are, listen to where the backbeat is at. That backbeat would be probably right around the 160 bpm range. And that stuff is all written out. And the whole "they play different instruments" argument is ridiculous. If these guys are as talented as you say they are, they can play Trane's stuff, or better yet, play on Trane's level with their own improvisations. But they haven't and probably won't.

When you have heard the entirety of the Mingus and Zorn catalogs, then you can tell me all about how these guys are better than Mingus and Zorn, if you think you can even pull off that argument, which you can't. But good luck.

1. okay

2. Death owed alot to Cynic, the first album that Death had that was progressive was Human and the reason for this was because both Paul Masvidal and Sean Reinert helped Chuck out on that album. Death is however not in the same leage as Cynic in any way, Cynic is far more advanced and many times harder to play. The guys in cynic can improvise if they want to, they did however put their priority on making 100% good music on this album so only one improvised solo is on that album but it does however show that the ability is their whenever they want it. But ok, maybe we should be calling it Death-Fusion if that makes you happier, the music is far closer to fusion than pure jazz so I can agree on that.

3. I don't care if Mingus could play aggressive on a triangle, slapp it on his ass or play it on a double bass, the fact remains that it sounds like Britney Spears compared to bands like Disgorge.

4. I know that both Paul and Jason have played alot of Allan Holdsworth songs for practice so that should count for something. Sean Malone is however the only one in the band who has explored his full range and he is also among the absolute elite of players now but saying that Malone should be able to play the same stuff as Coltrane at that speed on bass is rediculous. Paul and Jason always had a downto earth approach to music and never did songs like Giant Steps just becuase they could. They still could if they wanted but unfortunately I don't have any proof of that except the Cynic recordings and the fact that they practiced as much as possible for many years.

Kelly Shaefer quote about Cynic:
Aren’t they amazing? The drummer Sean is just, wow! I lived with them for a little while in Miami and they used to literally walk around all day with their guitars. I’d wake up and Paul would be cooking eggs and the guitar would be strapped around his fucking neck! He’d walk around saying ‘Kelly, check out this riff! <makes complex riff noises>’ Playing without an amp. They make ATHEIST sound like AC/DC!

I'm not saying that they are better, only that they also are top notch players. I don't think that you can be the best when it comes to music (maybe Holdsworth) but only among the best and both Coltrane and Cynic are that.

[jazzypaul]

You know, I just erased a document that would have made the Magna Carta look like a postcard. But then I realized, Copyu doesn't get it. He goes into discussions about jazz and talks about fusion. He talks about the future of jazz where jazz is obscured by someone's growling about someone's dismemberment. He talks about the glory of death jazz, but says that they're great because they don't improvise. There's no blues feeling to what they do, and certainly no sense of tradition. That's not jazz. It's not even remotely related to jazz via some far off relative that jazz hasn't seen since the last family reunion. All of this said, I have two recommendations for you...

1) Go out and listen to some jazz. Live jazz. Not fusion. Jazz. Acoustic hard driving jazz. That jazz could be standards, like a Marcus Printup or it could be some wacked out heavy stuff like Kurt Rosenwinkel and Mark Turner. But do yourself a favor and go check that out. And don't go looking for virtuosity. You'll find it if you do, but wrap your brain around the feel, the interaction with the group, the interaction with the room. You'll come away with a new appreciation for the stuff.

2) Before you come into a JAZZ bulletin board and start talking about how death metal is better, remember that you're insulting people who have made this music their lives! Remember that this music is the history, not only of America, but also of the African American experience, the Civil Rights struggle, the search for freedom and identity, and a homecoming and a new blasting off! You're going to tell me that death metal and a bunch of screaming swedes has more history, bravura and swagger than all of that? No, you won't. Because you'd be unfounded. Jazz isn't death metal. Death Metal isn't jazz. Death Metal listeners generally don't get death metal because they appreciate subtlety, something which Death Metal lacks. Death Metal fans generally don't get jazz because jazz is all about texture and subtlety and interaction, things which are not so prevalent in death metal.

And, please, don't knock Mingus again. I'd hate to have to go note by note on a Mingus tune to explain to you why you're a moron...

[DWBass]

Damn, I'm about to ride the jazzypaul train!! ;)

[jazzypaul]

CHOO CHOOO!!!!! it's 5:15 and this A Train is the only way to get to Harlem!

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
You know, I just erased a document that would have made the Magna Carta look like a postcard. But then I realized, Copyu doesn't get it. He goes into discussions about jazz and talks about fusion. He talks about the future of jazz where jazz is obscured by someone's growling about someone's dismemberment. He talks about the glory of death jazz, but says that they're great because they don't improvise. There's no blues feeling to what they do, and certainly no sense of tradition. That's not jazz. It's not even remotely related to jazz via some far off relative that jazz hasn't seen since the last family reunion. All of this said, I have two recommendations for you...

1) Go out and listen to some jazz. Live jazz. Not fusion. Jazz. Acoustic hard driving jazz. That jazz could be standards, like a Marcus Printup or it could be some wacked out heavy stuff like Kurt Rosenwinkel and Mark Turner. But do yourself a favor and go check that out. And don't go looking for virtuosity. You'll find it if you do, but wrap your brain around the feel, the interaction with the group, the interaction with the room. You'll come away with a new appreciation for the stuff.

2) Before you come into a JAZZ bulletin board and start talking about how death metal is better, remember that you're insulting people who have made this music their lives! Remember that this music is the history, not only of America, but also of the African American experience, the Civil Rights struggle, the search for freedom and identity, and a homecoming and a new blasting off! You're going to tell me that death metal and a bunch of screaming swedes has more history, bravura and swagger than all of that? No, you won't. Because you'd be unfounded. Jazz isn't death metal. Death Metal isn't jazz. Death Metal listeners generally don't get death metal because they appreciate subtlety, something which Death Metal lacks. Death Metal fans generally don't get jazz because jazz is all about texture and subtlety and interaction, things which are not so prevalent in death metal.

And, please, don't knock Mingus again. I'd hate to have to go note by note on a Mingus tune to explain to you why you're a moron...

No Cynic is obviously not traditional jazz but without the jazz influences they would not sound like they did, they would probably be more like Nocturnus in their approach. You can't deny the fact that they where influenced by jazz and that it is very easy to hear it when listening to the album.

1) Sure, just make sure that you go to the next Immolation concert when they get around. The same thing applies for all people at this forum.

2) Do you think that Death Metal just arose from nothing at all?

From the Heavy Metal F.A.Q:
Metal music arose from a fusion of jazz and rock with influences from classical theory, producing a music which gradually evolved
into several complex postmodern styles which emphasizing an
existential but nihilistic view of reality, civilization, and the
"limits" of human consciousness.

Death Metal is a very important chapter in the history of music, just as jazz was. You seem to have choosen denial but bands like Cynic took what they did further than anyone else. And I'm still NOT TRYING TO SAY THAT DEATH METAL IS BETTER THAN JAZZ, I'm just trying to say that they can learn from each other.

I didn't knock Mingus, just told you the fact that his music isn't that aggressive compared to some DM bands.

Damn, I'm about to ride the jazzypaul train!!

Or you could try to think for yourself and explain what you think in your own words...

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Coypu


Or you could try to think for yourself and explain what you think in your own words...

Uhhhh...........10 or so posts to this topic I think constitutes thinking for myself, my brother! Just realize that all of these posts by you are just self-serving. And you seem to have an answer for everything we throw at you! That's cool but it's a waste of time.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
Uhhhh...........10 or so posts to this topic I think constitutes thinking for myself, my brother! Just realize that all of these posts by you are just self-serving. And you seem to have an answer for everything we throw at you! That's cool but it's a waste of time.

Well atleast you learned more about Death Metal and prog bassplayers so from that point of view you gained alot of good info. I also hope that you have learned that some death metal bassplayers are up there with the best and if that went through then I'm happy. But stop cheering for Jazzypaul, if you think that he says something good then reinforce it with your own view, cheering posts doesn't contribute much to a discussion.

[DWBass]

You know what? I did learn something. Thank you. I actually had no idea that the level of musicianship in the genre was as good as it is. So yeah, I did learn something. Whether or not I like the genre is insignificant. Just remember this, Jazz is basically all about not playing pre-conceived notes. Total improvisation with a high level of musicianship. Theory is applied yes, but is pretty much thrown out the window when something of abstract is conceived (i.e.: Monk). This is what true jazz is about. IMO, teachings and what I've come to know. And also remember, I did say I like the music, just NOT the vocals. I don't care how you put it, the deep gory grunt vocals is not music. It may be physically challenging (I assume you really need to be in shape) but it is not music. So there you have my final synopsis on this subject and I think it's time for this thread to end. Let's move on to something else, shall we.........

Peace my Swedish brother................;)

[Coypu]

Great, then this thread served its purpose pretty well. I hope you wheren't the only one though...

I'm going to end this thread with the song that created the genre name Death Metal from the first DM album of all time : Seven Churces by Possessed :

Death Metal

Arise from the dead
Attack from the grave
The killing won't stop 'til first light
We'll bring you to hell
Because we want to enslave
Your soul will be frozen with fright
We'll break through the crust
Leave from our crypts
Protected by eternal life
Lay down the laws
From our satanic scripts
Bringing you nothing but strife

Death Metal
Death Metal

Ruling your cities
Controlling your towns
Entrapped in your worst nightmare
Piercing your ears
With a horrible sound
Casting my elusive stare
Lucifer laughs
His needs are fulfilled
The flames are now burning hot
Bodies are burning
The people are killed
Torture the reason we fought

Death Metal
Death Metal

Kill them pigs

Now we take over
And rule by Death Metal
Enjoy our long-waited reign
Blood's what we want
And we won't settle
Until we drive you insane
Attacking the young,
Killing the old
Bleeding with every heartbeat
Darkness has fallen
And your soul is sold
Claws will dig into your meat
When the sun doesn't rise
And the day is like night
Know that your life is at its end
Rendered helpless
So scream out in fright
Death Metal came in the wind

Death Metal
Death Metal



Let's pray that the genre live forever in a sweet symbiosis with Fusion and Jazz.

[Jazz]

Or lets not. And say we didn't.

If Coypu can make such a grand statement for the music he loves, which is not jazz, then I can certainly make one for jazz, especially since this is a jazz board.

Jazz is the most sophisticated music that exists, and one of the most sophisticated arts all across the atistic mediums. Anyone would be hard pressed to give a REAL example of a musician that has better skills than a virtuosic jazz musician. If jazz was once born of a "fusion" of european and blues tonality/african polyrhythms, it is now its own music: the most beautiful blend of passionate emotions and technical virtuosity. To the idea of fusing jazz to ANY other style to make jazz in itself more powerful I say nay, for jazz is more innately musical than other musics. Simply put, there is nothing new for other styles to seriously offer jazz music. If jazz is going to move forward, it must do so on its own terms, developing as its own unique style without being weakened by lesser art forms.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
Or lets not. And say we didn't.

If Coypu can make such a grand statement for the music he loves, which is not jazz, then I can certainly make one for jazz, especially since this is a jazz board.

Jazz is the most sophisticated music that exists, and one of the most sophisticated arts all across the atistic mediums. Anyone would be hard pressed to give a REAL example of a musician that has better skills than a virtuosic jazz musician. If jazz was once born of a "fusion" of european and blues tonality/african polyrhythms, it is now its own music: the most beautiful blend of passionate emotions and technical virtuosity. To the idea of fusing jazz to ANY other style to make jazz in itself more powerful I say nay, for jazz is more innately musical than other musics. Simply put, there is nothing new for other styles to seriously offer jazz music. If jazz is going to move forward, it must do so on its own terms, developing as its own unique style without being weakened by lesser art forms.

Well Spastic Ink is one band that could teach any jazz band of how to create difficult songs to play.

Glenn Gould (RIP) could outplay anyone in jazz considering what I have heard sofar. But if you disagree then bring out some soundclips.

Immolation have a darker atmosphere and sound than any jazz band so they are obviously supreme to jazz in that area.

Suffocation are faster than any jazz band when it comes to bass speed. Cannibal Corpse & Atheist does also apply.

Suffocation are also heavier than any jazz band,

Marduk has an overall intensity and aggression far greater than anything in jazz.

The list could go on with elements that Jazz have that is weaker than thoose in DM. If you wish to proove me wrong then I expect soundclips or atleast good examples.

And as far as virtousity goes I can say that there is no one in DM who can touch Holdsworth but no one in jazz can do that either so it depends on how you see it really.

As far as bass goes then DM is up there with the very elite.

DM is also up there in drumming, check out Morgan Ågren if you have any doubts.

Vocals, well when a jazz vocalist does the inhaled scream in open face surgery I will shutup but until then I must say that DM are the absolute masters of screamed and growled vocals.

[Giant Steps]

Wow. Once again you've completely and utterly missed the point.

-GS-

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Giant Steps
Wow. Once again you've completely and utterly missed the point.

-GS-

I was only giving him examples to show him that he was wrong about some things like this :

"Simply put, there is nothing new for other styles to seriously offer jazz music. If jazz is going to move forward, it must do so on its own terms, developing as its own unique style without being weakened by lesser art forms. "

As far as I could tell his point was that jazz complete in itself and has nothing to learn from other genres. ?

[jazzypaul]

I was all ready to let this one die. I was going to leave it at "wow, there are people that don't like jazz posting on a jazz BBS! That's crazy!" But then coypu had to say the following things...

"Well Spastic Ink is one band that could teach any jazz band of how to create difficult songs to play.

Glenn Gould (RIP) could outplay anyone in jazz considering what I have heard sofar. But if you disagree then bring out some soundclips.

Immolation have a darker atmosphere and sound than any jazz band so they are obviously supreme to jazz in that area.

Suffocation are faster than any jazz band when it comes to bass speed. Cannibal Corpse & Atheist does also apply.

Suffocation are also heavier than any jazz band,

Marduk has an overall intensity and aggression far greater than anything in jazz."

Spastic Ink? Difficult? I'll leave it to you to go pick up a copy of "Heavy Metal Be-Bop" by The Brecker Brothers (I'm going to regret this album choice, I can see it now...") and listen to "Some Skunk Funk." That tune is one of those where anyone who hears it, regardless of what they think of Michael and Randy, just drop their jaws. And while it may be fusion to some extent, it is far closer to jazz than rock. And, as well, your boys are playing THROUGH COMPOSED MUSIC!!! SO WHAT!!! As I've said previously, give me something written out, and I don't care how complex it is, I'll be able to play it within a couple of weeks. Because I can sit there and practice it until I get it right (most likely, just like your spastik ink.) Now, compare that to a song like Black Comedy off of Miles In the Sky, which changes time signatures every two bars, and has completely improvised solos. Which is TRULY the harder song to play? The one where you just play what's on the page, or the one where you make up the page? The idiot will answer one way, those of us who have spent our lives playing music will answer the other. Don't make me further prove your ignorance coypu...

Glen Gould, whoever the hell he is, is playing written out formulaic speed trap stuff. Fine and dandy. (1) Does he know what he's playing? (2) Is he playing the same ostinato line for 3 or 4 minutes or is he truly going with the flow of the music? (3) Did he ever actually utilize the fun parts of the modes and all they have to offer, or was he just another guy that thought that it sounded cool to play on an E Minor Pentatonic scale?

Dark is a frame of mind. No, I haven't heard too much jazz that would make me want to go out and play dungeons and dragons and wear black t-shirts. But I haven't heard too much death metal that you can make love to either. Which, ultimately, is the point of all music. So if you want to be supreme to my music in the area of "not getting laid," go right ahead.

I've already proven that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to bpm rates. Shut up, already!

Heavy is a state of mind. If heavy is loud and crunchy and sludgy, then you're right. Death Metal is "heavier" than jazz. But if heavy is make you think, hit you where you live, make everyone shut up during a solo because you don't want to miss a thing, then Freddie Hubbard, Clifford Brown, Bud Powell and Charlie Parker are all far heavier than any Death Metal ever. I would much rather have Freddie Hubbard's second chorus during Witch Hunt, when the entire band falls into this groove from hell and jaws just drop, than hear about killing zombies anyway.

Intensity is also a state of mind. You've already proven a general lack of mind power by comparing Mingus to Britney Spears. There is a SUBTLE intensity to what Mingus, Roach, Rollins and Dolphy did that sucks you in and leaves you ravished, if you are of the mind to let it.

Finally, that death metal quote that you "left us" with has offended me more than you will ever know. Not because of its subject matter, not because it is specifically death metal. But rather because it was the stupidest set of lyrics I have read this side of Lynnard Skynnard, and everyone in this BBS is dumber for having read it.

Strangely enough, I was in a conversation the other night with a few people that were saying that Cynic is one hell of a death metal band. I had to agree with them. To tell the truth, I am a big fan of the whole "math-metal" genre, and own albums by Messhuga, The Dillinger Escape Plan and others. I respect their music. But I would never be so ignorant as to call it better than the music that takes the entirety of not only the blues, but also classical and pop music and puts them all in an instantaneous blender that requires tenacity, character, individuality and musical knowledge unparalleled anywhere else in the universe that we call jazz. The average classical player's knowledge of music theory cannot hold a candle to what the average professional jazz musician should know in order to hold his own. Again, I will say this, if you want to compare the musics, level the playing field. I want to hear an acoustic session from Cynic or Immolation (by the way, if the theory that states that bands are only as good as their name holds true, these bands are all the worst thing since 80's hair metal). I want to hear what they do when they actually try to SING a song. I want to hear what happens when they attempt to write a melody, based around changes that make sense. I want to hear them write harmonies that are full of meat and interesting note choices within the chords. Don't give me this crap about how they're different types of music. Duke Ellington had it right: There are only two types of music; good music and bad music. If these guys can perform in any situation, they're good. If they HAVE to have distortion pedals and they HAVE to scream nonsense, and they HAVE to play blast beats, then they're one trick ponies, and you should be ashamed to have wasted our time with the thought of them. So go back to your files of stolen music, and find that for me. Cynic and Immolation and whatever other band you want to bring up, playing melodies, singing lyrics and making smart harmonic choices. THEN, and ONLY THEN, do I think that you will see that your precious death metal guys need to pack it in, cut their hair, and become insurance salesmen.

[Coypu]

I am very well aware of the song skunk funk and I admit that it is a pretty hard song but is you pointed out it is very fusion. BUT even Sean Malone who is a top notch improviser and who can play practically anything you give him said to the answer of the question of what he thought was hard to play : Spastic Ink. And that says alot comming from a guy that can play along side with guy like Gary Willis and improvise solos very high speed.

Since you claimed that you could learn anything within a few weeks then I was wondering if you could both proove it and do me a favour. I have long been thinking of covering one of the easiest spastic ink songs by the name of "To counter & groove in e minor". If you could record that song it would be great.

Spastic Ink - To Counter & Groove in E minor (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spastik%20Ink%20-%20Ink%20Complete%20(1997)/spastic%20ink%20-%20To%20Counter%20And%20Groove%20In%20E%20Minor.mp 3)

You can read about Glenn Gould here :
http://glenngould.com/gg/

1. Yes he did
2. Depended on the work but I know that he added improvisations to some Mozart peices when he didn't like some things about them.
3. Well, he has played most classical music but I guess that explored most of what music has to offer through the works of Bach, Beethoven & Shoenberg etc.

That was a pretty low comment but ok, then we agree on the supremity on DM in that area atleast. But if you want love making music make sure to check out some Doom Metal that often get pretty romantic.

Ok then we agree on the heavy part too. What you are talking about is something else not related to heaviness.

The lyrics are indeed very stupid but none the less classic. "Death Metal came in the wind"

Ok, I'm going to give you some samples of what the Cynic guys have done after Cynic : http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/jazz/

It includes pop, rock, prog rock/metal, fusion & jazz. Clean vocals, acoustic instruments at times, melodies etc. You will find that the variety of theese guys is far greater than practically anyone from jazz.

[jazzypaul]

Alright, I'm getting back in here without having had a chance to listen to these sound clips (my speakers are fried...luckily, I have a lot of CD's to make the silence of aol more user friendly!)

Tell Sean Malone to come talk to me when he can improvise along side Michael Brecker. Practically all of the top jazz guys, from Roy Hargrove to Sonny Rollins and Stan Getz have been able to step outside of genre and turn out stellar performances. I happen to be in a situation where I hear about 90% of the jazz that comes out around the world. Where is that disc featuring Sean Malone playing Cherokee changes? Please, alert me to this!!

Also, if you expect me to put together a band to play one death metal song, I expect compensation for studio time and musician's union hourly pay scale. Do comic book store clerks make enough money to cover that in Sweden?

ABout this Glenn Gould guy...(1) okay, fair enough. (2) HE CHANGED THINGS ABOUT A MOZART PIECE THAT HE DIDN'T LIKE. You never mentioned if he improvised those changes or wrote them out. Not to mention, this is music that has been oogled over for what, close to 250 years now, and some chump decided that it wasn't good enough for him? Rather pompous, don't you think? (3) Once again, proving your inferiority to a jazz musician on all discussions musical, his playing classical music does not equate with knowing music theory, whatsoever. Talk to a person who has gotten a degree in jazz performance and someone who has gotten a degree in "legit" music performance, and then tell me who has the better ear training and theory skills. 9 times out of 10, it is the jazz musician. See, we as jazzers must take the innovations of western european music, and then IMPROVISE THEM!!! Not write them out, not play what was already written, but improvise them. So, if that's all Glenn Gould has on his side, he may as well just hang out with Billy Sheehan from Mr. Big and Geezer Butler. Because without jazz, that's all he's good for.

Why was that a low comment anyway? If you can show me one guy, ever, in the history of modern music, that has gotten some play BECAUSE some woman heard Immolation on in the background, I will rescind that comment. In the meantime, I owe Miles, Sonny Rollins and Houston Person, not to mention, Al Green, Stevie Wonder and Prince thanks every day for getting me action that I didn't deserve but got due to mood changing music. God Bless America...I mean, you might get the odd goth chick who hasn't seen daylight in months, but, well, (shiver...)

Wow you are dense. Cats back in the 50's and 60's used to refer to deep music as heavy. That's the far more important heavy in my book.

My farts come in the wind too. Is one of your death metal cronies going to write a song about that as well? Maybe this...

Jazzypaul's farts come in the wind (growling and power chords)
what he ate for lunch is a total sin (more growling, more harmonic blasphemy)
now my nose is hurtin' My brain is bleeding (some sort of howling, and headbanging, of course)
and now I'm running, because that burrito smell is exceeding!!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWLLLLLLLL!!!!!

Deep isn't it?

I think I'm knee deep in metal fecal matter. Time to get out of the cesspool. Capuchin Swing is almost over, and it's time to reload the CD player with more REAL music...

[Coypu]

Sean could easily play a song like some skunk funk, I would on the other hand hear the bassplayer who played with brecker to play a hand full of earth by Sean Malone. Good luck! I actually know a classical bassplayer who can play some skunk funk on bass and she is just a student.

Also, if you expect me to put together a band to play one death metal song, I expect compensation for studio time and musician's union hourly pay scale. Do comic book store clerks make enough money to cover that in Sweden?

What instrument do you play? It sounds like like you just make up excuses just because you can't do it but maybe you just can't play that stuff because of your instrument type? And I can also CLAIM to be able to play anything but doing it is a different as it seems...

And you can't seriously can't be serious if you doubt Glenn Goulds skill. He was a genious who since age 3 dedicated his whole life to music. He could play coltrane solos with one hand tied behind his back if he wanted too. And yes he improvised the extra things on mozart peices right on the spot.

sonata no7 d major (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/GlennGould-BeethovenSonataNo7InDmajor.mp3)

Very deep but the problem is that possessed actually spawned 1000's of bands, can you claim to have done the same?

[jazzypaul]

Wow, shooting down some skunk funk. You are a brazen young one, are you not? You talk about someone who is just a student, but in order to be a student, you must be learning something. There are people who are "just students" who go on to be great professionals, but they had to (a) start out as just students, and (b) probably got pretty good while considered "just students." When I was "just a student," I already had my Elvin, Blakey and Philly Joe (on brushes anyway) impersonations down cold. Does this make me better than them? NO!!! I am only playing what I heard. That is relatively easy. Making it your own, however, is a completely different thing.

As mentioned above, I am a drummer. So, in order to play any music that is listenable outside of the regular drumming audience, I would need to put together a band. Duh.

Gould is a bass player, right? Therefore, it would be impossible for him to play anyone's solos with a hand tied behind his back, unless they were simply based on EAGD. Not much of a solo, and most certainly not a coltrane solo.

If, by making a mess, you inspire a bunch of other people to make a mess, have you inspired something great? No. Posessed? Where do people come up with these names? What's next? My Mom's Bloody Spleen? And whoever is in that band will probably be a better musician than any jazz musician too, right? New Kids on the Block, KISS, Winger and Bon Jovi all inspired plenty of bands too. Is that to say that their music is better than jazz as well?

[Coypu]

I wasn't shooting down some skunk funk I was only saying that for a bassplayer it is not the hardest song in the world. Water on the brain pt.2 for example is alot harder. And the "just student" thing was to show you that people who study classical music are not some half assed losers compared to people who learn jazz. And Bach "and the guys" knew their theory pretty well you know...

Well, if you are a drummer than the spastic song I posted should be easy for you since it is probably the easiest drumming wise. All I ask of you is to record the drum parts for that song and I'll do the rest.

Gould was a piano player.

Possessed did something great, without them there would be no bands like Gorguts, Cynic, Atheist etc who pushed music forward. You may not like them but you could never find a band in jazz who do what Gorguts does, I know you like your music logical and easygoing but sometimes it can be good to break a few rules and create something out of the ordinary.

Speaking of which, do you know any jazz that apply dissonance, atonality in a powerfull and musical way? The stuff I have heard sofar lacks theese qualities.

[Coypu]

...and if you thought the possessed lyrics where stupid...

Anal Cunt - I'm Glad Jazz Faggots Don't Like Us Anymore

we just wanted to sound like shit
but you thought we were avant garde
you thought we went to art school
but we worked at gas stations

you thought we were cool
but you diden't know we hate you
you thought we were cool
fuck off all you fucking faggots

you diden't know we were a bunch of assholes
you thought we were liberal and arty
you tried to act wierd and pretend you were violent
when i whipped chairs at you, you ran off and cried

you thought we were cool
but you diden't know we hate you
you thought we were cool
fuck off all you fucking faggots

once you realized we hate people like you
you finally stopped coming to our shows
now there's less faggots, less people with glasses
less know it all eggheads, no more jazz fags

you thought we were cool
but you diden't know we hate you
you thought we were cool
fuck off all you fucking faggots

[jazzypaul]

"Speaking of which, do you know any jazz that apply dissonance, atonality in a powerfull and musical way? The stuff I have heard sofar lacks theese qualities."

Then why are you here? THIS IS A JAZZ BBS, NOT A DEATH METAL ONE!

But, to answer your question, (1) Jazz is all about breaking rules. This is why Charlie Parker, Charles Mingus, Miles Davis, Ornette Coleman and Anthony Braxton are all considered jazz heroes. Because they broke rules, because they played with dissonance, and in the case of Anthony Braxton, could be completely atonal. If you don't hear the power of those artists, it's your fault, not theirs. There is nothing easy going about any of those players, save for some early moments from Miles. (2) The key component of jazz is its musicality. The fact is that there is melody implied, even during the solos. This is something that Death Metal lacks.

If Posessed did something great, I ask you this: If the theory holds true that art reflects life, how empty must life be if your art centers around killing people (the posessed song you quoted) and attempting to destroy their value system (Deicide and Morbid Angel)? How desolate is your life when you get enjoyment from that? When I hear jazz, even in its most desperate moments, I hear hope, I hear freedom. This isn't to say that I don't hear sarcasm and cynicism as well, but I certainly hear things that I WANT reflected in my life. If you do not hear things that you want reflected in your life in that music, then I feel sorry for you, I truly do. I appreciate death metal as an artform that takes stamina to play, and, at its best moments, makes some brilliant musical statements when its singers aren't too busy growling because they have no sense of how to SING. Yes, that band might have opened doors for a couple of bands that have pushed a few boundaries further within the confines of a very limited musical sub-genre, but that does not make them great or even praise-worthy. The fact is, and you've said it yourself, the projects that these musicians have undertaken now that they have left their bands have encompassed different kinds of music. Even they don't want to keep playing it.

And I never said that classical musicians were half-assed compared to their jazz counterparts. I only said that they are not well-equiped to play jazz, which, with its improvisatory nature, is truly the most taxing music to play on the planet, save for Indian Ragas, which are also improvisatory, by the way.

And, really for just one second, you might want to back away from the "it's all so difficult to play" bag for just a second. Because Hank Mobley's music certainly never broke down any doors, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone that could tap so deeply into human emotion as well as ol' Hank could.

I think the sad part about this whole argument is that you're focusing on music that says one thing: I'm angry. Who wants to be angry all of the time? And why would we want to trade our music, that makes us very happy for music that's angry and bitter? That's no fun. So, please, either go listen to some Wayne and Ben Webster and some Herbie Hancock, or shut up. After all, I have yet to hop onto a Death Metal BBS and start telling everyone how much better our music is than theirs. You have no business doing it here.

[Coypu]

Uh, you think that possessed wrote thoose lyrics dead seriously? Nope, but alot of death metal have possitive messages like Immolation whos lyrics may seem dark but Ross himself says that they are positive since they often describe the victory against evil and I agree. But death metal can express most emotions and the genre also does, just listen to dead horse for pretty happy music and Anal Cunt if you want humour. Anger, Despair, Happiness, extacy or whatever you seek can be found in DM. Many bands have pretty serious lyrics, just look at Cynic as an example.

Yes and no to if they still want to play it or not, Paul masvidal who is very deeply into simplicity and eastern mythology, yoga and such ended up wanting to do simple and thoughtfull music. (example) (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/jazz/Aeon%20Spoke%20-%20Sand%20&%20Foam.mp3)

Sean Malone though even said after his jazz album that he was going to create something like Cynic again since it is the music he loves the most so he and the drummer Sean Reinert are still going strong with Gordian Knot who is pretty similar to Cynic in many ways.

There is no melody in DM solos? Listen to Necrophagist my fine friend and you shall see the light.

I shall listen to the guys you mentioned, I doubt that they will be of the same caliber as Gorguts but maybe I'm in for a suprise this time.

And just for the record, I listen to alot of simple music but since non of thoose bands are jazz related I just haven't mentioned them.

But if you ever feel like talking jazz in a death metal forum you are most welcome at www.teufelstomb.com

[jazzypaul]

"I shall listen to the guys you mentioned, I doubt that they will be of the same caliber as Gorguts but maybe I'm in for a suprise this time."

If caliber is sheer musicality, then Gorguts will have their doors blown off. If caliber is interplay between musicians, again, it's Miles and Ornette (and especially Anthony Braxton) over the long hairs in straight sets. If caliber is distortion pedals and growling, then you might have me beat. But if that's all you listen for, then our musical landscape as a whole is in sad, sad, sad shape.

"And just for the record, I listen to alot of simple music but since non of thoose bands are jazz related I just haven't mentioned them."

Neither are cynic and atheist!!! Just because they are complicated does not make them even close to jazz related!! I am offended horribly whenever you try to state that they are! They don't swing, they have absolutely no sense of blues in what they do and they don't improvise! And, on top of that, given what I've heard of the soundbites I have been able to hear, they don't even make use of the polyrhythms that we take for granted in jazz. Therefore, none of the music that you have talked about is jazz related, and furthermore, you probably weren't going to talk about any jazz when you got to the simpler music. THIS IS A JAZZ BBS!!

If you want to discuss jazz, not prog metal, I would be more than happy to discuss it with you at length. But something tells me that you would need to hear some first. So, please, go get yourself some jazz and listen up. You, me and everyone else on this board will be happier if you do.

[Coypu]

Gorguts are one of the few bands who put me in pure extacy when I listen to them. They are very experimental and actually pretty technical but not among the most technical bands out there.

So stop thinking so much about genres and just enjoy the MUSIC itself, Gorguts is a band that no one should miss out on nomatter what genre boarders they limit themselves too. Faceless Ones (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Gorguts%20-%20Faceless%20Ones.mp3)

Coltrane doesn't swing much and there isn't alot of blues in some of his music either, he does however improvise but so does both Cynic and Atheist eventhough it is rare.

And you really must listen to the whole Cynic album if you haven't done it already. Each song is very unique and the album is impossible to appreciate fully if you only hear 1 song a few times. The music grows on you alot. I wasn't even a fan the first weeks but after 6 months I was "obsessed" with them.

contact me on icq and I will send the whole album : 22230316

Argh, you seem to be a jazz purist and I guess that is cool in one aspect but it also limits your views so throw away the blindfold and let the ears guide you from now on.

[jazzypaul]

First off, my love of jazz does not make me a purist in any sense of the word. My jazz quartet plays the music of Metallica, Slayer, Pink Floyd, The Velvet Underground and Phish, among others. In any discussion of top 10 desert island discs, Stevie Wonder and Steely Dan always make their way into my lists. If I remember correctly, I got into an argument with you about Eminem, and I'm a longtime supporter of house music (I'm a Chicagoan, whaddya want from me?). Hardly the pedigree of a jazz purist. But, by far and wide, I am a jazz fan, and this IS a jazz BBS. If a favorite non-jazz artist comes up, I will gladly throw in my two cents, but I keep that to a minimum as this IS A JAZZ BBS.

Second, there are no blinders involved here. Mongolian Throat Singing is incredibly difficult as well, but I don't like it. There is music that is terribly complex that I love, and there is incredibly simple music that I love. This has nothing to do with blinders or genre. It has to do with the fact that death metal grunters do nothing for me, music without soul, in the most racially qualified sense of that word, does nothing for me, and music without a sense of groove does nothing for me. And as mentioned before, groove = love making, death metal, black metal, music without a sense of the blues in general = dungeons and dragons.

Trane himself was a little on the wooden side in his later period, but his groups ALWAYS swung, and hard. And if you can't hear the blues in EVERYTHING that Trane plays, you're deaf.

Again, this isn't jazz purism, this is someone, who, as a jazz musician, is galled that you would dare say that death metal has anything on jazz or that you would even be crazy enough to come into a jazz BBS and tell everyone that Death Metal is superior to jazz. This is the music of my heroes and teachers and idols and friends. Death Metal is the music of the guys at my parties who I have to throw out for being drunk. I've heard the music, I'VE SAID THAT I APPRECIATE IT, PROVING THAT YOU ONLY READ THAT WHICH YOU CAN ARGUE ABOUT!!!!!, but I can't respect music that requires(!) a lack of groove and any sense of real singing! Why must you try to ram this crap down my throat AT A JAZZ BBS?????????

[BariMusix]

Ok, the time for me to post has long since passed, and now my time is due. Coypu, you have made it clear that this thread is not about the fusion of jazz and death metal, but rather Death metal is better than jazz. You support your idea's with value statements. I have come up with a list of things I listen for during an improvised solo in jazz, regardless of type. i.e. fusion, hot jazz, straight ahead, bossa, ect. I'm only touching improvision, because with out improv. jazz would cease to be jazz, and there isn't anything anyone can say to change my mind. Here is my support of why jazz is a more complex, mathematical, and emotional music. Here it goes.......
I. Paraphrasing the Melody
A. What figurations were added to the melody? i.e. non-chord tones, arpegio tones, ect.
B. How was the rhythmic content altered?
C. Hoe was the general contour ornamenting or embellished?
II. Improvision on the Harmony
A. Harmonic Generalization
1. Triadic generization
2. Blues scales
3. Common cliches
B. Harmonically specific
1. Specific arpeggios. i.e. (1-3-5-7 & 3-5-7-9)
2. Scales (related first to the key center, or specific chord symbol
3. Guide tones (3rds and 7ths)
4. Step progression: simple ascending ir descending step motion in the middle of more angular lines.
C. Harmonic superimpostion
1.Tritone substitutions
2. Additions to the basic progression
3. Specific scale colorizations
4. Mode changes
5. Side slipping or planing
III. Compostioonal Devices for Motivic Development
A. Repetition: The theme must recur for it to be a theme. What elements recur in the improvisation and how are they different?
B. Sequencing: Transposing to other pitch levels in a repeating series.
C. Fragmentation: Using a smaller portion of the orignial idea.
D. Addition or interpolation: The opposite of fragmentation. Material is added to the motive. The new material can occur before, after, or in the middle of the original motive which is usually intact and recognizable.
E. Embellish or ornament: THis differs from the addition of notes before or after as it involves the elaboration of the original note using nieghbor toneswhile still following the general contour of the original idea.
F. Augmentation: To augment is to make something larger. Musically this can apply to the rhythmic units, the inervals and even the orchestration
G. Diminution: To diminish is to reduce something. this can apply to the rhythmic units, the inervals and even the orchestration
H. Inversion: The intervals of the original ideacan be turned upside down. they can be inverted using exact intervals or generally following the diatonic intervals.
I. Retrograde: The motive is played with the pitches in reverse order, This is not usually perceived by the casual listener.
J. Retrograde inversion: (Oh crap talk about mathematical!) the original can occur upside down and backwards. This is also not recognizable by the casual listener.
K. Displacement: MAy be applied to rhythms or pitches. Pitches may be displaces by moving them up or down. A motive may be rhythmically displaced to a different part of the phrase earlier or later than might be expected.
L. Mode Change: The motive might be set in other modes.
M. Iteration: Repetition. MAking a simple rhythm more active by repeating melodic pitches.
O. Quotes from other sources.
IV. Phrasing
A. Length (Long or short, relationship)
B. Placement (Before or after)
C. Connections (last notes or note of one phrase begins with the next) What types of rhythmic character are present in the improvisation? Were there instances of polyrhymic superimposition? Was there a contrast between simple and complex subdivions? How does the overall rythmic character contribute to the structures of phrases, phrase groups and the overall form?
V. Rhythmic Development (polyrhythm, contrasts) How was contrast used as a developmental tool?
VI. Contrasts to look for:
A. Harmonic specifity and harmonic generalization
B. High and low ranges
C. Loud and soft
D. Simplicty and complexity
E. Short and long phrases
F. Thick textures and space
G. Agitated and calm
VII. Overall Character
A. Agitated, calm, relentless, conversational, ect.
B. What musical elemnts contribute to the overall mood?
C. When is the high point of the solo?
D. Resolves conlict or not?
E. What is attractive about the solo? sound? rhythm? melodic ideas? techinal interest? formal? feeling?
F. Hamonic vocabullary
What is most impressive about this list of things I listen for is that they are or were performed on the spot. I would assume it would take a high level of thinking, i.e. mathematics to be able to calculate all of the options layed out before a jazz musician, and this is the beauty, having studied their instrument and knowing this theory, by ear or otherwise, they can play how they FEEL. Jazz musicians have complex feelings which they can't produce by simply playing fast or screaming. It would be like trying to express yourself limiting your vocabullary to eat, sleep, mad, happy, sad, scared. These things that jazz offers are incredible. It's a wonder why people don't get jazz. You have to listen to it, take it apart, put it together, and find out how it relates to you. HEck, people really don't even listen or think that far with their Pop or Rock or Rap, ect.
I challenge you Coypu to listen to jazz and death metal, using the system I listed and tell me which you think expresses emotion, is more mathematically complex, and is truely the music people call an art form.

[Jazz]

I'd like to point out something here.

To me, this thread really demonstrates how our modern society "hears" and percieves music.

1. Actual MUSICAL content is no longer a virtue of music, or
looked for in popular music. By musical content I mean development: any kind of development like melodic, rhythmic, form, dynamic, harmonic, textural, or tonal. I am a BIG supporter of development in music and I think that modern pop/rock has some of the least amount of development in recent musical history (from Bach's time forward). To say wether that is a bad thing is a value statement, but the FACT is that development is pretty much out the window with the popular ear.

2. What replaces development then, Jazz? Why would people listen to a music barren of musical development?? Please tell us, we're dying to know! Okay, okay I will tell you then: semiotics. What's semiotics?? You just made that up Jazz, you're such a liar! I am not a liar... AND I did not make it up some other guys made it up. Semiotics is the study of symbols. Well, what the heck does THAT have to do music?? You're not making any sense Jazzypoo! Well, you see, a symbol is anything that represents or brings to mind a value... a symbol is something that means something specific to you. It could be a visual thing like the red six sided polygon of a stop sign, or it could be.... A SOUND! (or combinations of sound) As you've probably figured out on your own, practically everything; ANYTHING is semiotic TO A DEGREE, even musical development, so what am I even saying then? I'll tell you:

The modern ear for music is entirely semiotic. There are certain simple sonic symbols that people equate with "good" or at least a foundation for "good". A good example is Coypu's idea that distorted guitars and growly vocals, in themselves have an aggressive quality (the MOST aggressive quality possible, actually). Therefore, the lack of said symbols (distorted guitar and growly vocals) in a piece of music equates to a lack of aggression in Coypu's ear. Is that valid? Well, I could agree with the screaming as a natural symbol of aggression, certainly. Screaming is pretty natural when someone is angry or about to go to war, etc. But distorted guitar? Nope, gotta disagree with that one as a NATURAL aggressive quality, though Coypu or anyone else has the right to interperet any sound as they wish.

So you've read this far and your saying to yourself "get to the friggin point already". Okay:

I don't have a problem with a semiotic approach to music, and I think modern tonal music theory allows for it. I mean, if you're anything like me (and I know I am), when I hear the texture of the timbre of Miles Davis' trumpet in a ballad against the soft piano with the drummer using brushes, it evokes emotion in me ALMOST independent of the development of the solo, and the improvised interaction of the band together, or the form of the song etc..

WHAT I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH:

REPLACING all development with semiotics. WHY would anyone want to do that? Coypu, just because you don't hear Mingus as aggressive doesn't mean that he isn't. As Jazzypaul stated Mingus did not have the semiotic devices that are so easily employed by your beloved deathmetal bands. Mingus was aggressive in his MUSICAL DEVELOPMENT, and you would do really well to check into that. Hearing only simple symbols in music and ignoring musical development is like knowing every english word possible, but only being able to form the simplest of sentences. Would you understand a Dicken's novel, or Maugham, or anyone else considered to have control over the finest points of language?

How does the semiotic ear bode for Jazz musicians? Not well I'm afraid, for we are about substance and development over just sound qualities, and I think those things are dying out.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
First off, my love of jazz does not make me a purist in any sense of the word. My jazz quartet plays the music of Metallica, Slayer, Pink Floyd, The Velvet Underground and Phish, among others. In any discussion of top 10 desert island discs, Stevie Wonder and Steely Dan always make their way into my lists. If I remember correctly, I got into an argument with you about Eminem, and I'm a longtime supporter of house music (I'm a Chicagoan, whaddya want from me?). Hardly the pedigree of a jazz purist. But, by far and wide, I am a jazz fan, and this IS a jazz BBS. If a favorite non-jazz artist comes up, I will gladly throw in my two cents, but I keep that to a minimum as this IS A JAZZ BBS.

Second, there are no blinders involved here. Mongolian Throat Singing is incredibly difficult as well, but I don't like it. There is music that is terribly complex that I love, and there is incredibly simple music that I love. This has nothing to do with blinders or genre. It has to do with the fact that death metal grunters do nothing for me, music without soul, in the most racially qualified sense of that word, does nothing for me, and music without a sense of groove does nothing for me. And as mentioned before, groove = love making, death metal, black metal, music without a sense of the blues in general = dungeons and dragons.

Trane himself was a little on the wooden side in his later period, but his groups ALWAYS swung, and hard. And if you can't hear the blues in EVERYTHING that Trane plays, you're deaf.

Again, this isn't jazz purism, this is someone, who, as a jazz musician, is galled that you would dare say that death metal has anything on jazz or that you would even be crazy enough to come into a jazz BBS and tell everyone that Death Metal is superior to jazz. This is the music of my heroes and teachers and idols and friends. Death Metal is the music of the guys at my parties who I have to throw out for being drunk. I've heard the music, I'VE SAID THAT I APPRECIATE IT, PROVING THAT YOU ONLY READ THAT WHICH YOU CAN ARGUE ABOUT!!!!!, but I can't respect music that requires(!) a lack of groove and any sense of real singing! Why must you try to ram this crap down my throat AT A JAZZ BBS?????????

I don't care if this is a Jazz forum or a animal sex forum, threads and topics does always go abit offtopic at times and this is only healthy for a forum. If we can't have this discussion then how are we going to understand each other. There is obviously some controversy in what I say so there must be something here that is worth discussing. If you guys where perfectly secure that jazz for example could improve a song like Theory In Practice composes then you could just show me and example and it would be end of story. But since you guys have realised and you have even agreed that some stuff is better done in DM like darkness and heaviness there is something that maybe jazz could take interest in. This is why this thread belongs here since Jazz itself could learn from DM and DM could learn from jazz. This thread is the crossing boarder between jazz and death, without it this forum would be like a glas bubble hiding from outer influences. If someone goes into a DM forum and talks about jazz then I would welcome their views with open arms and gladly discuss with them. But that never happens so I haveto seek you guys here instead.

What is your definition of Swing and Blues? We seemed to have completely different views on heaviness so explain your views on this.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by BariMusix
What is most impressive about this list of things I listen for is that they are or were performed on the spot. I would assume it would take a high level of thinking, i.e. mathematics to be able to calculate all of the options layed out before a jazz musician, and this is the beauty, having studied their instrument and knowing this theory, by ear or otherwise, they can play how they FEEL. Jazz musicians have complex feelings which they can't produce by simply playing fast or screaming. It would be like trying to express yourself limiting your vocabullary to eat, sleep, mad, happy, sad, scared. These things that jazz offers are incredible. It's a wonder why people don't get jazz. You have to listen to it, take it apart, put it together, and find out how it relates to you. HEck, people really don't even listen or think that far with their Pop or Rock or Rap, ect.
I challenge you Coypu to listen to jazz and death metal, using the system I listed and tell me which you think expresses emotion, is more mathematically complex, and is truely the music people call an art form.

Okay I listened to some Coltrane (countdown) and compared it with the death metal band Necrophagist (Fermented Offal Discharge). I choose a DM bands that wasn't among the most technical to give jazz a fair chance.

Coltranes music could hold my attention the whole song through and I experiences the emotion relaxation and just feeling good.

As far as complexity goes Coltrane himself crushes Necrophagist in this case. His fellow players did however perform pretty lame and was inferior to Necrophagist.

Coltranes playing was fantastic and definately worthy of being called true art, his fellow musicians should seek job somewhere else though.

Now to Necrophagist :

The moment the music kicks in my head starts nodding and and a smile appears on my face, I feel happiness and I become more energic than ordinary. My blood starts to pump faster and my body tempareture rises. I did along with the song and at about half the song I get a feeling of power and at the moment of the solo I feel joy and are fully enjoying the solo. Aggression takes over in the end and at the end of the song I felt pleased.

Complexity, okay overall song was defiantely more technical on all levels except coltranes soloing. The exactness of Necrophagist was on another level than coltrane and Necrophagist solo although easier it had a stronger sense of melody and interplayed very well with the other instruments.

Conclusion, Necrophagist conveyed stronger emotions and had a overall more advanced approach but coltrane himself lifted his song to compensate for this but my vote goes to necrophagist since they had a stronger overall approach.

http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Necrophagist%20-%20Onset%20of%20Putrefaction%20-%2008%20-%20Fermented%20Offal%20Discharge.mp3

http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/John%20Coltrane%20-%20Giant%20Steps%20-%2003%20-%20Countdown.mp3

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
I'd like to point out something here.

To me, this thread really demonstrates how our modern society "hears" and percieves music.

1. Actual MUSICAL content is no longer a virtue of music, or
looked for in popular music. By musical content I mean development: any kind of development like melodic, rhythmic, form, dynamic, harmonic, textural, or tonal. I am a BIG supporter of development in music and I think that modern pop/rock has some of the least amount of development in recent musical history (from Bach's time forward). To say wether that is a bad thing is a value statement, but the FACT is that development is pretty much out the window with the popular ear.

2. What replaces development then, Jazz? Why would people listen to a music barren of musical development?? Please tell us, we're dying to know! Okay, okay I will tell you then: semiotics. What's semiotics?? You just made that up Jazz, you're such a liar! I am not a liar... AND I did not make it up some other guys made it up. Semiotics is the study of symbols. Well, what the heck does THAT have to do music?? You're not making any sense Jazzypoo! Well, you see, a symbol is anything that represents or brings to mind a value... a symbol is something that means something specific to you. It could be a visual thing like the red six sided polygon of a stop sign, or it could be.... A SOUND! (or combinations of sound) As you've probably figured out on your own, practically everything; ANYTHING is semiotic TO A DEGREE, even musical development, so what am I even saying then? I'll tell you:

The modern ear for music is entirely semiotic. There are certain simple sonic symbols that people equate with "good" or at least a foundation for "good". A good example is Coypu's idea that distorted guitars and growly vocals, in themselves have an aggressive quality (the MOST aggressive quality possible, actually). Therefore, the lack of said symbols (distorted guitar and growly vocals) in a piece of music equates to a lack of aggression in Coypu's ear. Is that valid? Well, I could agree with the screaming as a natural symbol of aggression, certainly. Screaming is pretty natural when someone is angry or about to go to war, etc. But distorted guitar? Nope, gotta disagree with that one as a NATURAL aggressive quality, though Coypu or anyone else has the right to interperet any sound as they wish.

So you've read this far and your saying to yourself "get to the friggin point already". Okay:

I don't have a problem with a semiotic approach to music, and I think modern tonal music theory allows for it. I mean, if you're anything like me (and I know I am), when I hear the texture of the timbre of Miles Davis' trumpet in a ballad against the soft piano with the drummer using brushes, it evokes emotion in me ALMOST independent of the development of the solo, and the improvised interaction of the band together, or the form of the song etc..

WHAT I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH:

REPLACING all development with semiotics. WHY would anyone want to do that? Coypu, just because you don't hear Mingus as aggressive doesn't mean that he isn't. As Jazzypaul stated Mingus did not have the semiotic devices that are so easily employed by your beloved deathmetal bands. Mingus was aggressive in his MUSICAL DEVELOPMENT, and you would do really well to check into that. Hearing only simple symbols in music and ignoring musical development is like knowing every english word possible, but only being able to form the simplest of sentences. Would you understand a Dicken's novel, or Maugham, or anyone else considered to have control over the finest points of language?

How does the semiotic ear bode for Jazz musicians? Not well I'm afraid, for we are about substance and development over just sound qualities, and I think those things are dying out.

Very interesting! But the basic emotions are also the strongest and if music can make a strong appeal to them then it will have the strongest impact. I personally can see the beuty in a Holdsworth solo or in something by coltrane or Miles Davis but I also can feel the total despair in Burzum. You are preaching to the wrong person since I already can do both, I can understand the greatness in Burzums 3 riff per song approach as well as I can see the greatness in the complexity of a Holdsworth song.

You should however ask yourself why you can't relate to your basic emotions when you hear the onslaught of Kataklysm for example.

[jazzypaul]

I'll just put it this way:

I fully agree with the idea of taking other music and making it jazz. My group, my favorite jazz albums of the last few years, my ideals of how to make jazz grow and flourish are all bound to this thought. I, however, want nothing to do with using elements of other music to destroy the legacies of Pops, Goodman, Bird, Diz, Miles, Ornette, Gary Burton, Carla Bley, Pat Metheny, Wynton Marsalis, Joshua Redman or even Medeski, Martin and Wood. These are all artists who may tinker with the formula, but never forget the formula in the first place. Part of the reason that I am quite perturbed by your posts is that you want to throw out the formula altogether, and call something that is not jazz, jazz. That is not what its all about. I've heard the music that you're trying to tell me is great, and you know what? It's not. It's just not. It's complex, yes. It's dark, yes. It's loud, yes. But does that mean it's good? Not on its own it doesn't. You forget that the people who listen to pop music listen to it because they're looking for certain things in music. The people who listen to the blues are looking for certain things in music. And we as jazzers, are looking for certain things in music. For me, it's improvisation, and I'm a hardcore Grateful Dead fan, as well as being a jazzer. For others, it's other things. But I don't think anyone was looking for Anal Cunt when they went looking for jazz. And it's unfair to think that we have our blinders on because something that is far afield from jazz is not being taken to kindly at a jazz website.

As for thinking that I have realized that death metal is better than jazz in any form, I think you're nuts. Just because it's louder does not make it better. Just because the guitarists bought more toys to tinker with does not make it better. Just because the lyrics are inane does not make it better. Any chance that the death metal industry might have had to go out and buy more than the Messhugah and Dillinger Escape Plan albums that I have has been thrown out the window by the fact that I am now completely annoyed with even the idea of death metal because now, it's no longer a novelty which is fun to listen to when all of my friends who hate jazz are around, it's now this sub-genre made up of whiny swedes. So thanks for ruining it for me with your superiority complex. It's doubly crappy.

My definition of swing: forward motion. You should be able to close your eyes and feel yourself moving forward. Which also, by definition would then include James Brown, Stevie Wonder, Bo Diddley, etc, but it gets the point across.

Blues: if you have to ask, you'll never know. It's a quote, but it's so true. If you can't hear a blues and just automatically know it, then ya just ain't got it.

[jazzypaul]

Not to mention, if a band can't even spell their own name correctly, why in the world am I going to be interested?

And these people CAN relate to their basic emotions when they hear this stuff!!! THEY DON'T LIKE IT!!! REPULSION IS AN EMOTION, N'EST PAS?

[Jazz]

Originally posted by Coypu
You are preaching to the wrong person since I already can do both

No I'm not and no you can't. Your analogy of Mingus being like a horse drawn carriage compared to deathmetal proves that you have made a completely arbitrary decision to hear distortion and screaming as the end all-be all of aggression.

Originally posted by Coypu
[B]You should however ask yourself why you can't relate to your basic emotions when you hear the onslaught of Kataklysm for example.[B]

That's a pretty presumptious assertion on your part. There's plenty of music that I listen to that is Rock/Pop that I like, or that evokes an emotional response in me. The reason I have never liked deathmetal is because, like I said, it is devoid of development, and entirely about semiotics and sound qualities.











Coypu, your ability to completely ignore information given to you astounds me, as does your ability to pick one sentence out of an entire argument and argue with that rather than with the whole idea.

Bari gave you 46, count them, 46 very specific criteria to judge your music by to see if it could stand up to jazz. You completely ignored all of them (keeping only the suggestion to compare), and then compared Coltrane to Necrophages based purely on your subjective emotional interpretation. Bloody brilliant I say.

Bari has effectively backed you into a corner, and until you respond to each of his 46 criteria, there is no way you can prove deathmetal's superiority. Jazz uses all 46 of those ideas and more, and they do it by INSTINCT! Intuitional math, nothing deathmetal has can beat it.

I'm asking every jazz musician and jazz afficianado here for two things:

1. Boycott this thread until Coypu sees fit to respond to the criteria Bari posted

2. Post one last time to say whether or not you think deathmetal is in any way superior to jazz.

Here is mine: Deathmetal is in no way, in my opinion, superior to jazz.

[BariMusix]

2. Post one last time to say whether or not you think deathmetal is in any way superior to jazz.
I said all that I needed to. Death metal has nothing, I mean NOTHING on jazz. That means jazz is better, I don't think I could be any clearer when I say that jazz is better.

[jazzypaul]

Death Metal is superior to jazz in the following ways:

1) When I want a headache late at night as I'm trying to fall asleep, my roommate that plays Cannibal Corpse will usually do the trick. Jazz has yet to give me a headache.

2) When I want to pay money to go to a show only to get beat up by a bunch of meatheads who are "moshing," I have to go to the death metal show. As hard as I try, I can never get a slammin' pit going when Roy Haynes comes to town.

3) Death Metal is one of three subjects which the normal 20 year old hesher knows about (the others being weed and their brother's trans am). In order to get that hesher to speak, you must speak to him in terms of death metal. Jazz will only get you grunts of confusion.

4) The second you learn how to double pick, play double bass drum 16th notes, and scream, you can be in a death metal band. Jazz takes years of practice and schooling to learn, and who wants to deal with all of that when you can scream about farts and death RIGHT NOW!!!

and the last reason why death metal is better than jazz...

5) None of those annoying chicks at your death metal show!!!


In all other matters, musically, socially and artistically, jazz is far superior to death metal.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I'll just put it this way:

I fully agree with the idea of taking other music and making it jazz. My group, my favorite jazz albums of the last few years, my ideals of how to make jazz grow and flourish are all bound to this thought. I, however, want nothing to do with using elements of other music to destroy the legacies of Pops, Goodman, Bird, Diz, Miles, Ornette, Gary Burton, Carla Bley, Pat Metheny, Wynton Marsalis, Joshua Redman or even Medeski, Martin and Wood. These are all artists who may tinker with the formula, but never forget the formula in the first place. Part of the reason that I am quite perturbed by your posts is that you want to throw out the formula altogether, and call something that is not jazz, jazz. That is not what its all about. I've heard the music that you're trying to tell me is great, and you know what? It's not. It's just not. It's complex, yes. It's dark, yes. It's loud, yes. But does that mean it's good? Not on its own it doesn't. You forget that the people who listen to pop music listen to it because they're looking for certain things in music. The people who listen to the blues are looking for certain things in music. And we as jazzers, are looking for certain things in music. For me, it's improvisation, and I'm a hardcore Grateful Dead fan, as well as being a jazzer. For others, it's other things. But I don't think anyone was looking for Anal Cunt when they went looking for jazz. And it's unfair to think that we have our blinders on because something that is far afield from jazz is not being taken to kindly at a jazz website.

As for thinking that I have realized that death metal is better than jazz in any form, I think you're nuts. Just because it's louder does not make it better. Just because the guitarists bought more toys to tinker with does not make it better. Just because the lyrics are inane does not make it better. Any chance that the death metal industry might have had to go out and buy more than the Messhugah and Dillinger Escape Plan albums that I have has been thrown out the window by the fact that I am now completely annoyed with even the idea of death metal because now, it's no longer a novelty which is fun to listen to when all of my friends who hate jazz are around, it's now this sub-genre made up of whiny swedes. So thanks for ruining it for me with your superiority complex. It's doubly crappy.

My definition of swing: forward motion. You should be able to close your eyes and feel yourself moving forward. Which also, by definition would then include James Brown, Stevie Wonder, Bo Diddley, etc, but it gets the point across.

Blues: if you have to ask, you'll never know. It's a quote, but it's so true. If you can't hear a blues and just automatically know it, then ya just ain't got it.

I understand that you like your jazz pure but imagine this :

Take Countdown as an example and add better drumming by Morgan Ågren, add better bassplay by Sean Malone and all of a sudden you have a better song. It is now however more fusion sounding due to the new elements but non the less overall better. Getting my point?

Interesting, you can't explain what Blues is but yet you complain about me using emotional values when I talk about things. As you know have understood it is hard to explain certain things and since death metal is selldom based on music theory but often to pure ear basis it is hard to pick apart a song and explain it with theory since eventhough it is possible it still won't make sense if you compare it with music that is "logical" in the jazz players eyes. Death Metal is extremely freeform since there is no rules at all and you can do whatever you want as long as it sounds good.

Swing : Moving forward? I think I have a pretty good feel for swing and I think I understand the swing James Brown conveys as an example. Do you think that Allan Holdsworth swings? Personally I can't hear it there and no Blues either so is it just me?

And I made you dislike DM then you never liked it in the first place, a passion doesn't die easily so don't try to blame anything on me.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Not to mention, if a band can't even spell their own name correctly, why in the world am I going to be interested?

And these people CAN relate to their basic emotions when they hear this stuff!!! THEY DON'T LIKE IT!!! REPULSION IS AN EMOTION, N'EST PAS?

I think that you should focus on the music and not if the artwork is poorly painted. I don't care if my noodles comes in a ugly package as long as they taste good.

[jazzypaul]

"And I made you dislike DM then you never liked it in the first place, a passion doesn't die easily so don't try to blame anything on me."

Are all swedes this dumb? I knew socialism wouldn't work there. Coypu is proof of this. I have said multiple times that I respect the music, that I own and enjoy music by Messhugah, Dillinger Escape Plan and others. Again, you hear what you want to hear and read what you want to read.

I am all in on this boycott until Coypu hits on the 46 points of the great Bari.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
No I'm not and no you can't. Your analogy of Mingus being like a horse drawn carriage compared to deathmetal proves that you have made a completely arbitrary decision to hear distortion and screaming as the end all-be all of aggression.

That's a pretty presumptious assertion on your part. There's plenty of music that I listen to that is Rock/Pop that I like, or that evokes an emotional response in me. The reason I have never liked deathmetal is because, like I said, it is devoid of development, and entirely about semiotics and sound qualities.

Coypu, your ability to completely ignore information given to you astounds me, as does your ability to pick one sentence out of an entire argument and argue with that rather than with the whole idea.

Bari gave you 46, count them, 46 very specific criteria to judge your music by to see if it could stand up to jazz. You completely ignored all of them (keeping only the suggestion to compare), and then compared Coltrane to Necrophages based purely on your subjective emotional interpretation. Bloody brilliant I say.

Bari has effectively backed you into a corner, and until you respond to each of his 46 criteria, there is no way you can prove deathmetal's superiority. Jazz uses all 46 of those ideas and more, and they do it by INSTINCT! Intuitional math, nothing deathmetal has can beat it.

I'm asking every jazz musician and jazz afficianado here for two things:

1. Boycott this thread until Coypu sees fit to respond to the criteria Bari posted

2. Post one last time to say whether or not you think deathmetal is in any way superior to jazz.

Here is mine: Deathmetal is in no way, in my opinion, superior to jazz.

Okay, mention 3 death metal bands that you actually have sat down and listened to.

He gave me 46 criteria for things to listen to for in improvised jazz. I don't see the point in applying them to Necrophagist as an example since they don't improvise jazz solos. But if he wants go ahead. Why don't you start with picking apart Faceless Ones (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Gorguts%20-%20Faceless%20Ones.mp3) so I can see how it is done.

1. You guys may start and show me how it is done and I'll promise I'll do the same afterwards.

2. The brutality, Heaviness, Speed, and emotional approach to darker emotions is byfar stronger in Death Metal. I can proove speed but the rest is up for each indivudual to decide what he feels.

3. Ok, explain what you think about bands like Theory In Practice, Nocturnus, Immolation, Autopsy, Gorguts & Depresy.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Death Metal is superior to jazz in the following ways:

1) When I want a headache late at night as I'm trying to fall asleep, my roommate that plays Cannibal Corpse will usually do the trick. Jazz has yet to give me a headache.

2) When I want to pay money to go to a show only to get beat up by a bunch of meatheads who are "moshing," I have to go to the death metal show. As hard as I try, I can never get a slammin' pit going when Roy Haynes comes to town.

3) Death Metal is one of three subjects which the normal 20 year old hesher knows about (the others being weed and their brother's trans am). In order to get that hesher to speak, you must speak to him in terms of death metal. Jazz will only get you grunts of confusion.

4) The second you learn how to double pick, play double bass drum 16th notes, and scream, you can be in a death metal band. Jazz takes years of practice and schooling to learn, and who wants to deal with all of that when you can scream about farts and death RIGHT NOW!!!

and the last reason why death metal is better than jazz...

5) None of those annoying chicks at your death metal show!!!


In all other matters, musically, socially and artistically, jazz is far superior to death metal.

simple example : Take the bassline from Coltranes Countdown and compare it with the bassline to Insect by Spiral Architect, which one is most advanced? Which one takes most skill to play?

What is hardest for you as a drummer, to play coltrane or the Fredrik Thordendal Medley with Morgan Ågren?

[jazzypaul]

I'm breaking my promises already...sheesh...

here goes...


Insofar as your concern over our listening to death metal: I for one have listened intently to Messhugah, The Dillinger Escape Plan and Bolt Thrower. On top of that, I've been exposed to enough Morbid Angel, Deicide and My Dying Bride (I actually REALLY like them) to know what I'm supposed to be listening for. But again, I don't go to the death metal sites to proclaim the greatness of jazz. Don't do it here without knowing the music that you are criticizing INTIMATELY.

If you cannot put all 46 of those criteria to work on a death metal tune, that death metal tune is not as worthy of attention as even the most basic Hank Mobley blues, which will probably apply close to all of them (and Mobley is that horrible "b" word...BASIC!!!) I can do it with a few Grateful Dead 30 minute jams here or there, but it takes 30 minutes for Jerry to get out what Golson, Mobley, Turrentine or Lockjaw could get out in 6.

When you say things like..."The brutality, Heaviness, Speed, and emotional approach to darker emotions is byfar stronger in Death Metal. I can proove speed but the rest is up for each indivudual to decide what he feels," You only go to prove one of two things. Either...

1) You are so stupid and ridiculously mentally stunted that I can only tell you to "Run, Forrest, Run!" Jazz was right, as was I, when I said that Mingus has you beat, a good 40+ years to the punch. The only difference is that Mingus' anger was subtle. You ripped on New Fables, without figuring in that his sarcasm was fully at work there, tearing apart Orville Faubus, limb by limb, musically, with no vocals. There's no sarcasm to death metal, only a bunch of beavis's and butthead's going "huh huh, huh huh, yeah, kill people, yeah, yeah!" If that Necrophagist tune is supposed to be more intricate and powerful than Countdown, then you should never be allowed to pick up a musical instrument, for fear that you might actually influence someone...here's why...

a) You criticize the bass work. The bpm on that tune is in the 280 range. On top of that, the chords change every half measure. On top of that, the bassline was improvised. Yes, the upbeat will more than likely be the root note, but that other note is going to change every time. Play the 3rd for a sense of major/minor? Play the 4th and leave the chord suspended? Play the 5th and leave the chord to its natural devices. Play the 6th and allow for the dissonance of the note to play against what the piano and Trane are doing? But, wait, not done yet...On top of that, also must take into account whatever it is that Trane is doing. If he is playing minor against a major chord, do you flat the third with him, or allow the dissonance by playing the major 3rd? Do you really create dissonance and play the major 7th, putting you a half step off the root? These are all of the decisions going through PC's mind at any given moment. At 280bpm. Even if the bass line is just quarter notes, it's what goes into those completely improvised quarter notes. If you actually think a written out part is harder than that, well, then wow, Forrest, wow.

b) The interesting thing about jazz rhythm is that even though it may seem simple, it's incredibly fluid. When played properly, you're constantly playing 3-against-2 polyrhythms, and even if you are just playing quarter notes, they should be slightly ahead of the beat to imply that 3 against 2 feel. What that polyrhythm allows is for total flexability. I feel like playing rolling triplets? Fine, easily done. I want to play 16th notes to get a galloping thing going for a second? Cool, also works. Quarter notes? Only makes things groove harder. Backbeat? adds tension. Fills become part of ride patterns, ride patterns work their way into the entirety of the rhythm section, the entire rhythm section plays against, with , on top of or below the soloist. Again, considering that these guys are making decisions at something approximating 200 mph, the thought that this may be anywhere near as easy as blast beats (which require intense amounts of stamina, admittedly) would be idiotic.

Or you prove this second point...

2) That you have not been exposed to enough jazz, or enough music period to know better. Having seen you on this thread and this site, I know the answer is #1.

As for all of your death metal grandstanding, when death metal embraces jazz rhythm and subtlety, I will embrace death metal's, ummm...

If you are going to post on a jazz site, you owe it to us to be well informed about jazz before we owe you one iota of an explanation about death metal. But I have given mine. I've told you what I think about a few death metal bands, checked by name. So, either do the 46 point test ON A DEATH METAL TUNE, or actually listen to some jazz and pontificate on that for a while. But we shouldn't have to hear about death metal anymore, until you can show us, either musically, point by point, theoritically chord by chord that death metal is superior to jazz or you can talk at length about acoustic jazz artists. (Fusion is fusion, jazz is jazz. Rock and Blues are both born from the same woman, but we never confuse them, do we?) Hell, at this point, I'd even take a well thought out dissertation on MMW. But shut up already with the death metal. It doesn't swing, it doesn't have a sense of the blues, and they don't improvise. Therefore, it is not worth listening to, in the opinion of people here. So drop it.

[Coypu]

Okay folks, here comes a analysis of Foul Body Autopsy

I. Paraphrasing - This term is not in my vocabulary, explain what it means (I'm from sweden)

A. What figurations were added to the melody? i.e. non-chord tones, arpegio tones, ect.

he is playing G#m arpeggios over the chord G#m

And Dm arpeggios over a D5 chord

I have no idea what he is playing over the D chord?


B. How was the rhythmic content altered?

he alternates alot between 16th notes and 8th note triplets and time change from 4/4 to 7/8 occur in the end of the solo

C. Hoe was the general contour ornamenting or embellished?

huh? 2 words not in my vocabulary

II. Improvision on the Harmony
A. Harmonic Generalization
1. Triadic generization

I don't think the chords are in the same key so not sure what to write here?

2. Blues scales

not used?

3. Common cliches

?

B. Harmonically specific
1. Specific arpeggios. i.e. (1-3-5-7 & 3-5-7-9)

not really , 1-3b-5 etc

2. Scales (related first to the key center, or specific chord symbol

more releated to the chords

3. Guide tones (3rds and 7ths)

not sure about this one

4. Step progression: simple ascending ir descending step motion in the middle of more angular lines.

alot of switches from straight to arpeggiated lines occur

C. Harmonic superimpostion
1.Tritone substitutions

dunno

2. Additions to the basic progression

yes, he plays over an F in the end part

3. Specific scale colorizations

dunno

4. Mode changes

dunno, I'm not from the school who is concerned with modes so I have no clue

5. Side slipping or planing

?

III. Compostioonal Devices for Motivic Development
A. Repetition: The theme must recur for it to be a theme. What elements recur in the improvisation and how are they different?

main theme reocurs but ends with a more linear approach

B. Sequencing: Transposing to other pitch levels in a repeating series.

nope

C. Fragmentation: Using a smaller portion of the orignial idea.

after the main theme the solo gradually becomes more linear using smaller parts from the main theme (sortof)

D. Addition or interpolation: The opposite of fragmentation. Material is added to the motive. The new material can occur before, after, or in the middle of the original motive which is usually intact and recognizable.

more notes are added at the top of the main arpeggio thingy at times (2 notes to be exact)

E. Embellish or ornament: THis differs from the addition of notes before or after as it involves the elaboration of the original note using nieghbor toneswhile still following the general contour of the original idea.

?

F. Augmentation: To augment is to make something larger. Musically this can apply to the rhythmic units, the inervals and even the orchestration

the F's in the ending definately gives that effect

G. Diminution: To diminish is to reduce something. this can apply to the rhythmic units, the inervals and even the orchestration

at halfthrough the solo he switched from chords to single notes in the rhythmn guitar which gives that effect

H. Inversion: The intervals of the original ideacan be turned upside down. they can be inverted using exact intervals or generally following the diatonic intervals.

never happens as far as I can tell

I. Retrograde: The motive is played with the pitches in reverse order, This is not usually perceived by the casual listener.

don't think so

J. Retrograde inversion: (Oh crap talk about mathematical!) the original can occur upside down and backwards. This is also not recognizable by the casual listener.

nope

K. Displacement: MAy be applied to rhythms or pitches. Pitches may be displaces by moving them up or down. A motive may be rhythmically displaced to a different part of the phrase earlier or later than might be expected.

he changes the main arpeggio into higher pitch and then back again

L. Mode Change: The motive might be set in other modes.

probably but modes aren't my strong side

M. Iteration: Repetition. MAking a simple rhythm more active by repeating melodic pitches.

lots of repeation of the main melody

O. Quotes from other sources.
IV. Phrasing
A. Length (Long or short, relationship)
B. Placement (Before or after)
C. Connections (last notes or note of one phrase begins with the next) What types of rhythmic character are present in the improvisation? Were there instances of polyrhymic superimposition? Was there a contrast between simple and complex subdivions? How does the overall rythmic character contribute to the structures of phrases, phrase groups and the overall form?

the song alternates between 4/4 and 7/8 and it is sometimes straightforward but also unpredictable with lots of stop and go and the bass and guitar play the same rythms at times but completely different in other places. not sure about polyrythmics, but I'm sure you guys can figure it out


V. Rhythmic Development (polyrhythm, contrasts) How was contrast used as a developmental tool?
VI. Contrasts to look for:
A. Harmonic specifity and harmonic generalization
B. High and low ranges

6 string bass : from low D on bass up to high D, fret 17 string 6

guitar : from low D to fret 19 on string 6


C. Loud and soft

lots of variety, sometimes suffocation styles slow and emphased notes and sometimes softer drumming with nice melodic guitar melodies and laid back bassplaying and ofcourse sheer blasting sections with fast bass and guitar

D. Simplicty and complexity

The basslines are at times complex and tricky with triplets at 240bpm but also sometimes straight lines that are simple in theory

E. Short and long phrases
F. Thick textures and space

The song is very compact but opens up during the more melodic parts of the solo

G. Agitated and calm

Agitated as hell but is pretty calm at 1:20 in the song where the guitar plays nice melodic at half speed and the vocals and bass have a slow approach

VII. Overall Character
A. Agitated, calm, relentless, conversational, ect.

overall pretty agitated

B. What musical elemnts contribute to the overall mood?

the speed, the melody, the brutal vocals, the drumming, the overall technicality of the music

C. When is the high point of the solo?

right after the first sweep picked section

D. Resolves conlict or not?

every thing is fine and dandy, no problems in this tune

E. What is attractive about the solo? sound? rhythm? melodic

everything, the clean and incredible tone, the rhythmns and the beutiful melodic approach in combination with the ferocius sweep picking

ideas? techinal interest? formal? feeling?

I can only congratulate Muhammed on his incrediby tight playing that brings out feelings like Anger, Joy, Elevation, harmony. His technically perfected sweep and alternate picking is very interesting for me as a guitar fan

------------------------------------------------------

I have never made an analysis of a DM tune before so bare with me, there was alot of terms that are hard for me to understand since I normally talk swedish and not English.

You guys should sit down with your instruments and actually try to play this song, I bet that you won't find it as easy as you may think it is.

FOUL BODY AUTOPSY (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Necrophagist%20-%20Onset%20of%20Putrefaction%20-%2001%20-%20Foul%20Body%20Autopsy.mp3)

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I'm breaking my promises already...sheesh...

here goes...


Insofar as your concern over our listening to death metal: I for one have listened intently to Messhugah, The Dillinger Escape Plan and Bolt Thrower. On top of that, I've been exposed to enough Morbid Angel, Deicide and My Dying Bride (I actually REALLY like them) to know what I'm supposed to be listening for. But again, I don't go to the death metal sites to proclaim the greatness of jazz. Don't do it here without knowing the music that you are criticizing INTIMATELY.

If you cannot put all 46 of those criteria to work on a death metal tune, that death metal tune is not as worthy of attention as even the most basic Hank Mobley blues, which will probably apply close to all of them (and Mobley is that horrible "b" word...BASIC!!!) I can do it with a few Grateful Dead 30 minute jams here or there, but it takes 30 minutes for Jerry to get out what Golson, Mobley, Turrentine or Lockjaw could get out in 6.

When you say things like..."The brutality, Heaviness, Speed, and emotional approach to darker emotions is byfar stronger in Death Metal. I can proove speed but the rest is up for each indivudual to decide what he feels," You only go to prove one of two things. Either...

Well thoose are jazz criterias, if we judge by death metal criterias you will end up in the same position. No jazz bands have blast beats, hyper blasts, 4 finger playing bassplayers, or inhaled low growling or inhaled high pitch screaming. how well do they use distorition and pitch shifters? Get my point here? I could thrash any jazz with using thoose criterias.

1) You are so stupid and ridiculously mentally stunted that I can only tell you to "Run, Forrest, Run!" Jazz was right, as was I, when I said that Mingus has you beat, a good 40+ years to the punch. The only difference is that Mingus' anger was subtle. You ripped on New Fables, without figuring in that his sarcasm was fully at work there, tearing apart Orville Faubus, limb by limb, musically, with no vocals. There's no sarcasm to death metal, only a bunch of beavis's and butthead's going "huh huh, huh huh, yeah, kill people, yeah, yeah!" If that Necrophagist tune is supposed to be more intricate and powerful than Countdown, then you should never be allowed to pick up a musical instrument, for fear that you might actually influence someone...here's why...

Ok, Mingus is like a slap in the face, it hurts but Suffocation is like being kicked in the groin. Surely not as sophisticated but which hurts the most? Same here, Suffocation may be less sofisticated but they get the message through in a more powerfull way.

a) You criticize the bass work. The bpm on that tune is in the 280 range. On top of that, the chords change every half measure. On top of that, the bassline was improvised. Yes, the upbeat will more than likely be the root note, but that other note is going to change every time. Play the 3rd for a sense of major/minor? Play the 4th and leave the chord suspended? Play the 5th and leave the chord to its natural devices. Play the 6th and allow for the dissonance of the note to play against what the piano and Trane are doing? But, wait, not done yet...On top of that, also must take into account whatever it is that Trane is doing. If he is playing minor against a major chord, do you flat the third with him, or allow the dissonance by playing the major 3rd? Do you really create dissonance and play the major 7th, putting you a half step off the root? These are all of the decisions going through PC's mind at any given moment. At 280bpm. Even if the bass line is just quarter notes, it's what goes into those completely improvised quarter notes. If you actually think a written out part is harder than that, well, then wow, Forrest, wow.

One Necrophagist tune is in 240bpm eigth note triplets if we look at bassplaying. And that is a "easy" basstune. But if we look at Insect by Spiral Architect then you have as a bassplayer weeks of learning before you can be able to play it, let us imagine that we give Lars K Norberg 4 weeks to study up on countdown, I bet you alot that he could improvise something far better on it. And yes he can improvise more than well, he improvised several bass solos on spiral architect so would rip countdown apart.

But ask DWBass or any other bassplayer here if they can play Spiral Architect songs easily (or at all)... I don't think anyone would dare to make such a claim and back it up.

b) The interesting thing about jazz rhythm is that even though it may seem simple, it's incredibly fluid. When played properly, you're constantly playing 3-against-2 polyrhythms, and even if you are just playing quarter notes, they should be slightly ahead of the beat to imply that 3 against 2 feel. What that polyrhythm allows is for total flexability. I feel like playing rolling triplets? Fine, easily done. I want to play 16th notes to get a galloping thing going for a second? Cool, also works. Quarter notes? Only makes things groove harder. Backbeat? adds tension. Fills become part of ride patterns, ride patterns work their way into the entirety of the rhythm section, the entire rhythm section plays against, with , on top of or below the soloist. Again, considering that these guys are making decisions at something approximating 200 mph, the thought that this may be anywhere near as easy as blast beats (which require intense amounts of stamina, admittedly) would be idiotic.

Play me The Thordendal Medley and I'll shutup but untill then the drummer on countdown will forever look like an amateur.


Or you prove this second point...

2) That you have not been exposed to enough jazz, or enough music period to know better. Having seen you on this thread and this site, I know the answer is #1.

As for all of your death metal grandstanding, when death metal embraces jazz rhythm and subtlety, I will embrace death metal's, ummm...

If you are going to post on a jazz site, you owe it to us to be well informed about jazz before we owe you one iota of an explanation about death metal. But I have given mine. I've told you what I think about a few death metal bands, checked by name. So, either do the 46 point test ON A DEATH METAL TUNE, or actually listen to some jazz and pontificate on that for a while. But we shouldn't have to hear about death metal anymore, until you can show us, either musically, point by point, theoritically chord by chord that death metal is superior to jazz or you can talk at length about acoustic jazz artists. (Fusion is fusion, jazz is jazz. Rock and Blues are both born from the same woman, but we never confuse them, do we?) Hell, at this point, I'd even take a well thought out dissertation on MMW. But shut up already with the death metal. It doesn't swing, it doesn't have a sense of the blues, and they don't improvise. Therefore, it is not worth listening to, in the opinion of people here. So drop it.

The jazz/fusion artists I listen to the most :

Allan Holdsworth - I listen to him ALOT
Gary Willis and Tribal Tech as a bi-product
Sean Malone - Yes he has done jazz
Coltrane - For the solos alone, I never was to fond if his fellow players
Miles Davis
Cosmosquad

Does Holdsworth Swing? You never answered me the last time.

[jazzypaul]

Alan Holdsworth does not swing. However, there are definite jazz elements to his playing. He's not my favorite, however. This is my fault, not his. The man is a genius.

I applaud you for taking the time to run a death metal tune through all of the criteria.

However, looking over your last post, it is obvious that (a) you have nothing decent to add to a jazz discussion and (b) you simply ignore anything that proves our points. So I am out of this thread.

Once again, I thank you for destroying my interest in a style of music that I at least considered a fun novelty before, and I hope that at some point, you learn to listen to other people instead of ramming your own opinions down their throats without any consideration for what they have to say.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Alan Holdsworth does not swing. However, there are definite jazz elements to his playing. He's not my favorite, however. This is my fault, not his. The man is a genius.

I applaud you for taking the time to run a death metal tune through all of the criteria.

However, looking over your last post, it is obvious that (a) you have nothing decent to add to a jazz discussion and (b) you simply ignore anything that proves our points. So I am out of this thread.

Once again, I thank you for destroying my interest in a style of music that I at least considered a fun novelty before, and I hope that at some point, you learn to listen to other people instead of ramming your own opinions down their throats without any consideration for what they have to say.

I'm glad you think highly of Holdsworth even though he doesn't swing.

Could you explain the things I didn't understand? I'm don't fully understand everything that was written and I have no idea what scales he used overall. I only managed to figure out a few vhords and arpeggios.

a) we are discussing the glory of death jazz so you must take into consideration that death metal is part of this.

b) like what?

I listen to what you say and I have learnt a few things, you guys are at fault too since you fail to realise that you judge death metal by a jazz view and fail to understand the unique caracterizations that are in DM. I understand many aspects of what makes jazz great and I think that jazz is byfar superior in improvisation as an example. This does not mean that I think that jazz is superior in all ways or vice versa. Everytime I say something like "DM have the fastest bassplayers" you all take it as an attack against the whole jazz genre. I think that we all have things to learn here.

Oh, I know you wanted a better answer to the drum stuff you wrote but I can only say that some DM drummers would do a far better job on example countdown. It seems like you think that jazz drummers are the only ones who can improvise and play complex rhythmical patterns but this is far far from the truth.

Since you are a Meshuggah fan you should watch this video with Fredrik Thordendal & Morgan Ågren playing a medley of Sol Niger Within songs : Medley (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Morgan%20%c5gren%20&%20Fredrik%20Thordendal%20-%20Sol%20Niger%20Within%20Medley%20(from%20TRUM).m peg)

bye

[Giant Steps]

I believe that after just over six pages of frustrated Death Metal masturbation, this rather ineloquent message must be stated.

Coypu,


SHUT THE HELL UP!

With that I retire from this thread.
Mmmm... That was somewhat satisfying.

-GS-

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Giant Steps
I believe that after just over six pages of frustrated Death Metal masturbation, this rather ineloquent message must be stated.

Coypu,


SHUT THE HELL UP!

With that I retire from this thread.
Mmmm... That was somewhat satisfying.

-GS-

"when arguments end insults take over"

[Jazz]

Coypu,

Thank you for responding to Bari's post. I will now proceed to argue with you.

I do have to thank you for something though. I really want to thank you for posting that Necrophagist song. I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I heard it. That's some funny stuff man, seriously, that someone could even think that song outdoes Coltrane, his rhythm section, or even the crappiest aspiring jazz musicians.

To think that the song starts out with the singer growling (I still think he was screaming "SKWAAA.....SKWAAA" even though my friend told me he was screaming "kill") in QUARTER TIME and he STILL couldn't land on beat 1... To think that the entire song is pretty much a G# diminished arpeggio, except when the guitar solo briefly moves in parallel harmony to A diminished (for about a 2 measures at a time, starting at 1:20 and only twice that I counted).

That spot at 1:20 that you mentioned is not the guitarist picking slower subdivisions, because he is still picking eighth notes. What is happening is that the band slowed down, and it doesn't sound like its on purpose. There's also a spot at about 0:20 with a break, and it seems pretty plain that they mean to come back in on beat 1, but they're early. This is some pretty sloppy playing for people who supposedly practice their craft to perfection.

Also, compare the ONE mode of PRE ARRANGED music of this song, to the countles numbers of jazz songs with 2 MODES PER MEASURE, AND ITS IMPROVISED!!!

Coypu, I demand you tell me where I can download, or you post it here on this thread, one of Sean Malone's supposed jazz songs. I want to hear for myself if a jazz musician decided to play deathmetal out of preference. It better be straight ahead, because if its fusion it doesn't count for your argument. You need to show me a deathmetal musician who can play LEGITIMATE STRAIGHT AHEAD JAZZ before I'll listen to your arguments anymore.

[DeathMetalSux]

Coypu
"when arguments end insults take over"

When people don't listen, arguments end.

Let me do something you do all the time to others. Quote their whole POST and not respond but to a sentence or two of it. Naw, I'm not like you, so I'll take a different approach. What the hey, I'll repost something in it's intirety.

I'd like to pointquote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jazz
I'd like to point out something here.

To me, this thread really demonstrates how our modern society "hears" and percieves music.

1. Actual MUSICAL content is no longer a virtue of music, or
looked for in popular music. By musical content I mean development: any kind of development like melodic, rhythmic, form, dynamic, harmonic, textural, or tonal. I am a BIG supporter of development in music and I think that modern pop/rock has some of the least amount of development in recent musical history (from Bach's time forward). To say wether that is a bad thing is a value statement, but the FACT is that development is pretty much out the window with the popular ear.

2. What replaces development then, Jazz? Why would people listen to a music barren of musical development?? Please tell us, we're dying to know! Okay, okay I will tell you then: semiotics. What's semiotics?? You just made that up Jazz, you're such a liar! I am not a liar... AND I did not make it up some other guys made it up. Semiotics is the study of symbols. Well, what the heck does THAT have to do music?? You're not making any sense Jazzypoo! Well, you see, a symbol is anything that represents or brings to mind a value... a symbol is something that means something specific to you. It could be a visual thing like the red six sided polygon of a stop sign, or it could be.... A SOUND! (or combinations of sound) As you've probably figured out on your own, practically everything; ANYTHING is semiotic TO A DEGREE, even musical development, so what am I even saying then? I'll tell you:

The modern ear for music is entirely semiotic. There are certain simple sonic symbols that people equate with "good" or at least a foundation for "good". A good example is Coypu's idea that distorted guitars and growly vocals, in themselves have an aggressive quality (the MOST aggressive quality possible, actually). Therefore, the lack of said symbols (distorted guitar and growly vocals) in a piece of music equates to a lack of aggression in Coypu's ear. Is that valid? Well, I could agree with the screaming as a natural symbol of aggression, certainly. Screaming is pretty natural when someone is angry or about to go to war, etc. But distorted guitar? Nope, gotta disagree with that one as a NATURAL aggressive quality, though Coypu or anyone else has the right to interperet any sound as they wish.

So you've read this far and your saying to yourself "get to the friggin point already". Okay:

I don't have a problem with a semiotic approach to music, and I think modern tonal music theory allows for it. I mean, if you're anything like me (and I know I am), when I hear the texture of the timbre of Miles Davis' trumpet in a ballad against the soft piano with the drummer using brushes, it evokes emotion in me ALMOST independent of the development of the solo, and the improvised interaction of the band together, or the form of the song etc..

WHAT I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH:

REPLACING all development with semiotics. WHY would anyone want to do that? Coypu, just because you don't hear Mingus as aggressive doesn't mean that he isn't. As Jazzypaul stated Mingus did not have the semiotic devices that are so easily employed by your beloved deathmetal bands. Mingus was aggressive in his MUSICAL DEVELOPMENT, and you would do really well to check into that. Hearing only simple symbols in music and ignoring musical development is like knowing every english word possible, but only being able to form the simplest of sentences. Would you understand a Dicken's novel, or Maugham, or anyone else considered to have control over the finest points of language?

How does the semiotic ear bode for Jazz musicians? Not well I'm afraid, for we are about substance and development over just sound qualities, and I think those things are dying out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You base things on symbols. Symbols can be sounds, i.e. you base everything on sound and not theory. SO, you equate your heaviness to grunting vocals and distorted guitars. So limited is you view because of that. Argue that point. Argue semiotics, please! You wont. You wont, will not, cant, period. Then argue that you know theory cause if you did you wouldn't of had to backtrack like you did saying that jazz is freeform and that metal is the opposite, then turn around and say the opposite. Here let me qoute you. BTW look up these quotes as I WILL NOT alter them.
[QUOTE]I know that it sound abit unorthodox but with the speed and technicality combined with the freeform of jazz you get a very interesting combination that I think is the best that has happened in music.
What jazz often seem to be lacking is structure and advanced compositions
So I still think that my wish for the technicality of technical death metal should join with jazz since from what I have heard sofar DM still owns jazz as far as composed technical musical goes.
Specific things I would like to incorporate in jazz are :
Then after Bari backed you into a corner with his 46 points.
After that bomb shell you said latter, mind you this is a direct qoute:
Death Metal is extremely freeform since there is no rules at all and you can do whatever you want as long as it sounds good.
Well, is it freeform, or composed?!?!?!?!?!?
Also, aside from the improv part of Bari's post, you can use it to evaluate any ANY ANY song. Classical to rock. BTW that includes deathmetal. Yes even deathmetal can be described with theory. Theory describes music, so it can describe exactly what metal is doing. Not semiotics, but theory. Reread Jazz's post. You wont though will you? Then Bari's. When you used them last time you didn't know how to use 3/4ths of the points. Study, and you just MIGHT, learn something about music. Then come back and post again. Oh and by the way please, no, PLEASE qoute my WHOLE POST and not respond to anything, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You do it so well. Or better yet argue semantics, that way you can try to cover your butt, not that it will help.

[DeathMetalSux]

Here's something that got left out. Look this up too I you what, it's there.
Structure, The ability to have a technical song structure as a base and then let in some improvisation within that. Pretty much like Spastic ink + Coltrane as an example.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
Coypu,

Thank you for responding to Bari's post. I will now proceed to argue with you.

I do have to thank you for something though. I really want to thank you for posting that Necrophagist song. I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I heard it. That's some funny stuff man, seriously, that someone could even think that song outdoes Coltrane, his rhythm section, or even the crappiest aspiring jazz musicians.

To think that the song starts out with the singer growling (I still think he was screaming "SKWAAA.....SKWAAA" even though my friend told me he was screaming "kill") in QUARTER TIME and he STILL couldn't land on beat 1... To think that the entire song is pretty much a G# diminished arpeggio, except when the guitar solo briefly moves in parallel harmony to A diminished (for about a 2 measures at a time, starting at 1:20 and only twice that I counted).

That spot at 1:20 that you mentioned is not the guitarist picking slower subdivisions, because he is still picking eighth notes. What is happening is that the band slowed down, and it doesn't sound like its on purpose. There's also a spot at about 0:20 with a break, and it seems pretty plain that they mean to come back in on beat 1, but they're early. This is some pretty sloppy playing for people who supposedly practice their craft to perfection.

Also, compare the ONE mode of PRE ARRANGED music of this song, to the countles numbers of jazz songs with 2 MODES PER MEASURE, AND ITS IMPROVISED!!!

Coypu, I demand you tell me where I can download, or you post it here on this thread, one of Sean Malone's supposed jazz songs. I want to hear for myself if a jazz musician decided to play deathmetal out of preference. It better be straight ahead, because if its fusion it doesn't count for your argument. You need to show me a deathmetal musician who can play LEGITIMATE STRAIGHT AHEAD JAZZ before I'll listen to your arguments anymore.

He is actually picking slower subdivisions, check it here :

http://www.necrophagist.de/necrophagist/html/foulguitars.html

http://www.necrophagist.de/necrophagist/html/foulbass.html

But seriously, any jackass can play the piano parts in that coltrane song for example but you're not going to find a drummer, bassplayer or guitarplayer who could play this song without some major work. And no there is no sloppiness invloved, everything is played exactly as planned.

But if you want to proove that even crappy jazzplayer can play this then gather some folks from the forum and record the damn thing! I have transcriptions for the bass and guitar and the drummachine is pretty straight forwardly programmed. Note that the song you heard is made by one man alone.

[Coypu]

When people don't listen, arguments end.

Let me do something you do all the time to others. Quote their whole POST and not respond but to a sentence or two of it. Naw, I'm not like you, so I'll take a different approach. What the hey, I'll repost something in it's intirety.

You guys post big chunks of text with often long ramblings, you would get better replies if you added abit more focus and cut it up abit.

Then after Bari backed you into a corner with his 46 points.

Well I used to anazlyse a song, so what, not all thoose points are present in all jazz "good" music but I could always dissect a Cynic song if you want them all to be filled but if you have ever seen transcriptions of their stuff... I'm not going through that just yet.

Well, is it freeform, or composed?!?!?!?!?!?
Also, aside from the improv part of Bari's post, you can use it to evaluate any ANY ANY song. Classical to rock. BTW that includes deathmetal. Yes even deathmetal can be described with theory. Theory describes music, so it can describe exactly what metal is doing. Not semiotics, but theory. Reread Jazz's post. You wont though will you? Then Bari's. When you used them last time you didn't know how to use 3/4ths of the points. Study, and you just MIGHT, learn something about music. Then come back and post again. Oh and by the way please, no, PLEASE qoute my WHOLE POST and not respond to anything, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You do it so well. Or better yet argue semantics, that way you can try to cover your butt, not that it will help.

Imagine that you sit with your instrument and just write music that you like, you don't have to worry about time signatures, tempos, keys, modes or whatever, you just create what is in your mind and as long as it brings out what you are trying to say then it is all good. Total free form, if you want to write a completely illogical, atonal riff then go ahead, you can play a powerchord or use unique chord voicings or whatever you like. You have total freedom. That is death metal in its true spirit. Surely you can always explain it with theory later if you want but more than often that is pointless since the writer himself had more important issues in mind like trying to express emotions.

about semantics, since I like both subtle and blatant ways to express emotions I can only say that he made an interesting post and brought up a new way of thinking about a few things. I thank him for that and wish him the best of luck.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
Coypu, I demand you tell me where I can download, or you post it here on this thread, one of Sean Malone's supposed jazz songs. I want to hear for myself if a jazz musician decided to play deathmetal out of preference. It better be straight ahead, because if its fusion it doesn't count for your argument. You need to show me a deathmetal musician who can play LEGITIMATE STRAIGHT AHEAD JAZZ before I'll listen to your arguments anymore.

alright here you go : http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/jazz/Cortlandt%20-01-%20Controversy.mp3

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DeathMetalSux
Here's something that got left out. Look this up too I you what, it's there.


Well it is a pretty wild idea, Imagine the brilliance of Spastic Inks very demanding songstructures with Coltranes soloing over it, it would kick some major ass.

[DeathMetalSux]

You guys post big chunks of text with often long ramblings, you would get better replies if you added abit more focus and cut it up abit.
Heh, this coming from you who always rambles about death metal.

Well I used to anazlyse a song, so what, not all thoose points are present in all jazz "good" music but I could always dissect a Cynic song if you want them all to be filled but if you have ever seen transcriptions of their stuff... I'm not going through that just yet.

How do you know what good jazz is. How Much jazz do you listen to? Let's take a quote from jazz's "Glory of jazz" post, shall we?

I'm mostly a Fusion fan and I enjoy the works of Allan Holdsworth, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Shakti, Fredrik Thordendal, Tribal Tech, Cosmosquad, Ron Jarzombek, Jaco Pastorius, Weather Report, Cortland and similar.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, let's see. No straight ahead, no bop, no hot jazz, no bossa, no free, no cool, hmmmm, seems to me you ONLY listen to fusion, except for Coltrane's countdown, which I doubt you have ever listened to. So I guess you can't say what's good or bad being you never listen to the stuff, but still post on this jazz form like you do. So who are you to say what is "good" and what isn't if you don't listen to the music. Don't start telling me you do, you've proved to all of us you don't.

Imagine that you sit with your instrument and just write music that you like, you don't have to worry about time signatures, tempos, keys, modes or whatever, you just create what is in your mind and as long as it brings out what you are trying to say then it is all good. Total free form, if you want to write a completely illogical, atonal riff then go ahead, you can play a powerchord or use unique chord voicings or whatever you like. You have total freedom. That is death metal in its true spirit. Surely you can always explain it with theory later if you want but more than often that is pointless since the writer himself had more important issues in mind like trying to express emotions.

1. Which is it? Composed or freeform? You trying to say it's freeform now after you said it was composed? Your words have no meaning to me now that you have contridicted yourself. Yep I qouted it too.
2. What in the blue hell are you saying?!?! That's total B.S. and you know it. Why in the hell would Necrophages not use modes when they obviously did. How can something be in # minor or G# Diminished and not be a mode? Those are both modes, G# Dorian and G# Locrian. Jazz was right, they are playing in G# Locrian, not Dorian like you were saying.
How could they play just in those modes without really going outside of them to make them not modes. Look at that transription again and tell me their not playing in modes. Tempo, heh, sounded like 240 to me, I think you just make up stuff like they don't worry about tempo to cover for the fact that they drop the beat like 6 times. Jazz covered on that too. Tell ya what Junior, go to school or read a book or whatever, educate yourself on music, then come back and post.

about semantics, since I like both subtle and blatant ways to express emotions I can only say that he made an interesting post and brought up a new way of thinking about a few things. I thank him for that and wish him the best of luck.

When did Jazz say anything about emotion in the Qoute I posted? NOWHERE. He said nothing about emotion. Thank you for having avoided reading Jazz's post again. Let me qoute myself here:

Reread Jazz's post. You wont though will you?

Wow, you intentional missed the point to AGAIN to save face. Good old semantics. His post describes how you logic music. You do it by sounds.

SO, you equate your heaviness to grunting vocals and distorted guitars.

HE was trying to tell you in a nice way that that is how you view music. That is what is limiting your view. URGHHHHHHHHHHH.

Now on to you responding to Jazz's post.


But seriously, any jackass can play the piano parts in that coltrane song for example but you're not going to find a drummer, bassplayer or guitarplayer who could play this song without some major work. And no there is no sloppiness invloved, everything is played exactly as planned

Bullshight. First off all Jazz was refering to Coltrane's work, not just one song, and hell no NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO Jackass could just wander in a studio or hall or whatever and play piano for Coltrane. Prove that! Show me where someone with no skills, someone how thinks's HE KNOWS JAZZ (Coypu), played with Coltrane and was able to keep up with him. You can, wont, shant, period, the end. No sloppiness involved, man that song Foul Body Autospy was damn sloppy. Damn sloppy. In fact the transcription was probably how the song was meant to be played, but I know it wasn't. My ears DO NOT DECIEVE ME. After listening to music for 40 years I know when a band loses time and I know that distortion covers up mistakes. So I guess it takes some quailty musicians to play sloppy then?

[DeathMetalSux]

Oh and BTW that shight of an example of your boy Sean Malone playing that you posted in response to Jazz was not, is not, straight ahead.
Jazz said
Coypu, I demand you tell me where I can download, or you post it here on this thread, one of Sean Malone's supposed jazz songs. I want to hear for myself if a jazz musician decided to play deathmetal out of preference. It better be straight ahead, because if its fusion it doesn't count for your argument. You need to show me a deathmetal musician who can play LEGITIMATE STRAIGHT AHEAD JAZZ before I'll listen to your arguments anymore
Fusion by any other name............heh.

[DeathMetalSux]

But if you want to proove that even crappy jazzplayer can play this then gather some folks from the forum and record the damn thing! I have transcriptions for the bass and guitar and the drummachine is pretty straight forwardly programmed. Note that the song you heard is made by one man alone.

Get a friggin' clue, we don't want to play metal, peroid, that why this is a jazz discusion board, not a metal discussion board. Dammit, we are trying to keep jazz alive and you keep bring in this metal shight.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DeathMetalSux
[B]Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, let's see. No straight ahead, no bop, no hot jazz, no bossa, no free, no cool, hmmmm, seems to me you ONLY listen to fusion, except for Coltrane's countdown, which I doubt you have ever listened to. So I guess you can't say what's good or bad being you never listen to the stuff, but still post on this jazz form like you do. So who are you to say what is "good" and what isn't if you don't listen to the music. Don't start telling me you do, you've proved to all of us you don't.

I have still heard a good variety jazz, I just like Fusion (alot) better.

1. Which is it? Composed or freeform? You trying to say it's freeform now after you said it was composed? Your words have no meaning to me now that you have contridicted yourself. Yep I qouted it too.

Composed freeform.

2. What in the blue hell are you saying?!?! That's total B.S. and you know it. Why in the hell would Necrophages not use modes when they obviously did. How can something be in # minor or G# Diminished and not be a mode? Those are both modes, G# Dorian and G# Locrian. Jazz was right, they are playing in G# Locrian, not Dorian like you were saying.
How could they play just in those modes without really going outside of them to make them not modes. Look at that transription again and tell me their not playing in modes. Tempo, heh, sounded like 240 to me, I think you just make up stuff like they don't worry about tempo to cover for the fact that they drop the beat like 6 times. Jazz covered on that too. Tell ya what Junior, go to school or read a book or whatever, educate yourself on music, then come back and post.

I never said they didn't, I said "probably but modes aren't my strong side" I never even mentioned the Dorian mode! You can't just make things up! Are you even reading my posts or are you just reading the beginning and guessing the rest???

I said that is was in 240bpm too! Anyone can figure that out so what the hell are you talking about? I'm sure that Muhammed knew what tempo the song was in since he wrote it out in the transcription but many bands don't have a clue, they just play what they like and don't bother about that. Some do some don't, it depends.

Drop the beat? hmm, I bet you will think that they can't keep rhythm on a song like Harm & half time baking shuffle by Spastic Ink. Why don't you tell me that the drum machine in Necrophagist play sloppy too, maybe the computer can't keep the tempo... Seems like you have been listnening to too much straight jazz and can't keep up with music that actually doesn't just play straight ahead all the time...

When did Jazz say anything about emotion in the Qoute I posted? NOWHERE. He said nothing about emotion. Thank you for having avoided reading Jazz's post again. Let me qoute myself here:

Wow, you intentional missed the point to AGAIN to save face. Good old semantics. His post describes how you logic music. You do it by sounds.

I do both, understand? You don't like holdsworth for his blasting drums or powerchords and screaming...

Bullshight. First off all Jazz was refering to Coltrane's work, not just one song, and hell no NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO Jackass could just wander in a studio or hall or whatever and play piano for Coltrane. Prove that! Show me where someone with no skills, someone how thinks's HE KNOWS JAZZ (Coypu), played with Coltrane and was able to keep up with him. You can, wont, shant, period, the end. No sloppiness involved, man that song Foul Body Autospy was damn sloppy. Damn sloppy. In fact the transcription was probably how the song was meant to be played, but I know it wasn't. My ears DO NOT DECIEVE ME. After listening to music for 40 years I know when a band loses time and I know that distortion covers up mistakes. So I guess it takes some quailty musicians to play sloppy then?

just a test :
are theese guys sloppy? (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spastik%20Ink%20-%20Ink%20Complete%20(1997)/spastic%20ink%20-%20Harm%20And%20Half-Time%20Baking%20Shuffle.mp3)

Hmm, the piano parts in Countdown isn't that amazing, it even borders to lame. If Glenn Gould had played in his place you had noticed a HUGE difference.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DeathMetalSux
Get a friggin' clue, we don't want to play metal, peroid, that why this is a jazz discusion board, not a metal discussion board. Dammit, we are trying to keep jazz alive and you keep bring in this metal shight.

Well, how am I going to be able to take you guys seriously if you all the time claim that Metal is so simple but you can seem to actually be able to play it? Considering how easy you guys claim it is it should be no problem for you. Just take 30 mins and record the Necrophagist song (if you can).

Well straight jazz is the jazz version of Goregrind, I prefer both technical metal and Fusion + Bop over it any day of the year and so does Sean. You should move on too, music evolves you know?

[jazzypaul]

First off...

You're on a jazz board, we are not on a metal board. Before you tell us to play a song by your boys, I wanna hear you swing, hard and fast, with motivic and harmonic development. Come on, let's hear it!! After all, the music that floored musicians of all genres is just sloppy and crappy, right? And Tommy Flannagan, he's just a crappy piano player that played on Countdown and anyone could do better than him. And hell, this Sean Malone character can outplay Mr. PC himself, so, come on there mullet boy, bring it on!


And, coypu, what is straight jazz anyway? Is it Kenny Garrett? Is it Dave Holland? Is it Dave Douglas? How about Joe Lovano? Because, if they're the straight ahead stuff, and they're boring, I would love to hear what the exciting JAZZ (not fusion, and certainly not death metal) it is that you listen to to get your rocks off. Because all of those guys have pushed the music forward into new directions. What new directions are we supposed to look towards? Somebody death metal screaming "How High the Moon?" Or wait, shitty sounding, no tone double bass drums over "Giant Steps!" Or, this could get even better, people who have shaky time trying to play Cherokee as fast as possible and dropping beats left and right. If you say distorted guitars, it's been done by Scofield and David Fiuczynski. If you say more intense and more dark, well, we've gone there and you're too dense to hear it.

So, the great mastermind of all musical endeavors, Coypu, tell me what we're supposed to do within the framework of acoustic jazz to make YOU happy!

[DeathMetalSux]

Hahahaha

2. What in the blue hell are you saying?!?! That's total B.S. and you know it. Why in the hell would Necrophages not use modes when they obviously did. How can something be in # minor or G# Diminished and not be a mode? Those are both modes, G# Dorian and G# Locrian. Jazz was right, they are playing in G# Locrian, not Dorian like you were saying.

I never said they didn't, I said "probably but modes aren't my strong side" I never even mentioned the Dorian mode! [QUOTE]I know that it sound abit unorthodox but with the speed and technicality combined with the freeform of jazz you get a very interesting combination that I think is the best that has happened in music.?

What's this, did I NOT qoute you saying:
Imagine that you sit with your instrument and just write music that you like, you don't have to worry about time signatures, tempos, keys, modes or whatever, you just create what is in your mind and as long as it brings out what you are trying to say then it is all good. Total free form, if you want to write a completely illogical, atonal riff then go ahead, you can play a powerchord or use unique chord voicings or whatever you like. You have total freedom. That is death metal in its true spirit. Surely you can always explain it with theory later if you want but more than often that is pointless since the writer himself had more important issues in mind like trying to express emotions.

No worries of mode huh? If you supposedly can't hear modes how do you know if they are or aren't playing them? How do you know they aren't worried about them. About the dorian mode, that was an example, I NEVER mentioned anything about you using Dorian did I? Nope, never. Good old semantics again, give up it just wont work this time.
Back to the mode issue. Foul Body Language is obviously in a mode and I'm pretty sure they had thought and decided what mode they were going to use. About the drumming, I don't care if it was a damn drum machine, whoever sequenced the rhythms did a half ass job. And unless you can come up with a way of showing me they never lose time, not once, I will not believe you.

Composed freeform huh?

I know that it sound abit unorthodox but with the speed and technicality combined with the freeform of jazz you get a very interesting combination that I think is the best that has happened in music.

Well if it is composed freeform, why did you say you wnated to combined it with the freeform of jazz if it already was freeform.

Let me qoute you on this one:

You can't just make things up! Are you even reading my posts or are you just reading the beginning and guessing the rest???

Well if metal has freeform I guess it doesn't need to combined with jazz sparing us all.

[DeathMetalSux]

Extra about the Dorian mode so that you understand. You said that Foul body autospy was playing in G# monor, that equates to dorian. I caught myself saying that I never said I never said you said Dorian, that's half true. You said G# minor and I automatically thought dorian. Guess where not all perfect like you. I can admit my mistakes, can you?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
[QUOTE]First off...

You're on a jazz board, we are not on a metal board. Before you tell us to play a song by your boys, I wanna hear you swing, hard and fast, with motivic and harmonic development. Come on, let's hear it!! After all, the music that floored musicians of all genres is just sloppy and crappy, right? And Tommy Flannagan, he's just a crappy piano player that played on Countdown and anyone could do better than him. And hell, this Sean Malone character can outplay Mr. PC himself, so, come on there mullet boy, bring it on!

Well the difference is that I never make bald claims about being able to play anything nor do I think of myself as a good jazzplayer yet. I appreciate the skill in many jazz artists and so on. I do however think that guys like Sean Malone definately can outplay Paul Chambers but then again it is abit unfair since Sean plays bass and PC plays double bass where the speed is limited. Just listen to PC's bassline on Giant Steps, he is pretty much playing smooth lines with little variation. Imagine what a guy like Sean or Gary Willis could do with this song. Sometimes you need to break it up a little and add more angular lines and some lows and highs in a good mix. But I will make an attempt at playing the piano parts on Countdown as soon as you guys record something by Necrophagist or how about a Cynic song? I asked you first, you may accept or decline the challenge, it is in your hands.

And, coypu, what is straight jazz anyway? Is it Kenny Garrett? Is it Dave Holland? Is it Dave Douglas? How about Joe Lovano? Because, if they're the straight ahead stuff, and they're boring, I would love to hear what the exciting JAZZ (not fusion, and certainly not death metal) it is that you listen to to get your rocks off. Because all of those guys have pushed the music forward into new directions. What new directions are we supposed to look towards? Somebody death metal screaming "How High the Moon?" Or wait, shitty sounding, no tone double bass drums over "Giant Steps!" Or, this could get even better, people who have shaky time trying to play Cherokee as fast as possible and dropping beats left and right. If you say distorted guitars, it's been done by Scofield and David Fiuczynski. If you say more intense and more dark, well, we've gone there and you're too dense to hear it.

Dave Holland is not exactly my idea of straight jazz, I think more of music like Jimmie Owens jazz ensemble as an example. Music that doesn't break it up alot. Maybe my definitions are off but that is how I think of it. And about dark jazz, I have yet to hear some, maybe you can recomend something?

So, the great mastermind of all musical endeavors, Coypu, tell me what we're supposed to do within the framework of acoustic jazz to make YOU happy!

Well, I would really love to hear more unexpected changes, more variations and defitantely more spices up drumming and bassplay. I know there are exceptions and some great jazz drummers out there but I seek drumming that is along the line of Steve Flynn, Akira Jimbo, Bozzio, Morgan Ågren and similars. I'm not really a blast beat fan I like a mix of fusion, prog and metal when it comes to drumming. Bassplaying would be cool if there where more players like Sean Malone, Gary Willis & Lars K Norberg, they are players who know when to play technical and not and they also know how to add a great deal of variation into their playing but still within the line of the overall music. The elements I want left is people like Coltrane who can play good sounding solos that really grab you, => people who play with passion and skill.

That is my wish, can't you see that this could be something great?

Oh, and I would much like to get abit of odd and weird elements like Gorguts and Immolation into the game to cover a larger spectra and to add some really outside type playing.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DeathMetalSux
Hahahaha

What's this, did I NOT qoute you saying:

No worries of mode huh? If you supposedly can't hear modes how do you know if they are or aren't playing them? How do you know they aren't worried about them. About the dorian mode, that was an example, I NEVER mentioned anything about you using Dorian did I? Nope, never. Good old semantics again, give up it just wont work this time.
Back to the mode issue. Foul Body Language is obviously in a mode and I'm pretty sure they had thought and decided what mode they were going to use. About the drumming, I don't care if it was a damn drum machine, whoever sequenced the rhythms did a half ass job. And unless you can come up with a way of showing me they never lose time, not once, I will not believe you.

Composed freeform huh?

Well if it is composed freeform, why did you say you wnated to combined it with the freeform of jazz if it already was freeform.

Let me qoute you on this one:

Well if metal has freeform I guess it doesn't need to combined with jazz sparing us all.

There are many bands that doens't think in modes, Atheist for example, the only guy who know theory was the drummer, all guitar solos where completely played and created by ear, they had no clue about what they was playing (Their solos still kick ass though). And if we go into the untechnical metal you will see that few people think of music theory at all. Gorguts for example knowns their theory very well but Luc Lemay never use it to create music since he wanted to create something unique that wasn't sounding like anything else.

Yes composed freeform, what I want from jazz is basically what Cynic incorporated in their music and that is better solos, even though many DM solos are great I still prefer the solos that Cynic, Fredrik Thordendal & similars play and thoose are all jazz inspired. Some DM can be pretty stiff at times and adding more of jazz arangements there would help and so forth.

Well, you are the one who claim that they loose time, you could explain yourself and tell me where and how.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DeathMetalSux
Extra about the Dorian mode so that you understand. You said that Foul body autospy was playing in G# monor, that equates to dorian. I caught myself saying that I never said I never said you said Dorian, that's half true. You said G# minor and I automatically thought dorian. Guess where not all perfect like you. I can admit my mistakes, can you?

I'm glad you admitted your mistake. I can admit that I was wrong once when I said that Immolation released the album 'Failures for gods' in 1995 which was wrong. This was on another forum but I honestly admit my mistake and apologizes for it. sorry. If I'm wrong here sometimes then I will admit it. There is no point in discussing if you can't change your mind or admit errors.

[3pointdeli]

copyu, adding a bunch of mind bending playing together (coltrane with death metal) isn't going to add up to a worthwhile peice of music. mr. pc, tommy flanigan, and their peers knew that they were playing for the song. many of the technical players don't seem to understand this. the type of playing i hear in death metal and a lot of prog/fusion has far more in common with sports than music.

you can have all the skills in the world, but if you don't have any taste you're still going to sound like garbage.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
copyu, adding a bunch of mind bending playing together (coltrane with death metal) isn't going to add up to a worthwhile peice of music. mr. pc, tommy flanigan, and their peers knew that they were playing for the song. many of the technical players don't seem to understand this. the type of playing i hear in death metal and a lot of prog/fusion has far more in common with sports than music.

you can have all the skills in the world, but if you don't have any taste you're still going to sound like garbage.

So Sean Malone, Gary Willis and Lars K Norberg have bad taste in creating basslines???

[3pointdeli]

maybe. i never claimed to be familiar with their music, so i don't know.

my comments have nothing to do with them, they have to do with you and your desire to combine things in pursuit of the most intense and aggressive sounds attainable in music, both from a sonic and technical standpoint. personally, i'd much rather listen to a group of people who aren't virtuosos but manage to play well together.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
maybe. i never claimed to be familiar with their music, so i don't know.

my comments have nothing to do with them, they have to do with you and your desire to combine things in pursuit of the most intense and aggressive sounds attainable in music, both from a sonic and technical standpoint. personally, i'd much rather listen to a group of people who aren't virtuosos but manage to play well together.

Well I'm not only into technical stuff but it's what I like the most. This thread is dedicated to the glory of death-jazz and all death jazz is technical so maybe this isn't where you should be? I still valuate your input and you are of course free to remain here just as long as you understand what I talk about and try to vision.

Sean :
http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/x06.mp3
http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/Bass/GK.mp3

Gary Willis (very famous fusion player, Tribal Tech, Holdsworth etc.) :
http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/Bass/GarySelfDefense.mp3
http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/Bass/GaryWounded.mp3

Lars K Norberg :
http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spiral%20Architect%20-%20A%20Sceptics%20Universe%20-%2005%20-%20Insect.mp3
http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spiral%20Architect%20-%20A%20Sceptics%20Universe%20-%2001%20-%20Spinning.mp3

I hope you take time and listen to theese guys, It would help the debate alot if you knew about theese guys.

[Giant Steps]

I'm sorry to come back to this godawful thread, but this picture struck me as important enough to renege on my promise.

http://carcino.gen.nz/images/image.php/463c5922/arguing.jpg

-GS-

[DeathMetalSux]

Ok,
There are many bands that doens't think in modes, Atheist for example, the only guy who know theory was the drummer, all guitar solos where completely played and created by ear, they had no clue about what they was playing

I guess that even though they didn't know that they were playing in modes, it means they weren't even though they were.
I'm sorry but that just doesn't make sense. So, maybe they didn't know that the patterns and sounds (notes not distortion) they were playing turned out to be modes, but the fact is they still used modes.

Yes composed freeform, what I want from jazz is basically what Cynic incorporated in their music and that is better solos, even though many DM solos are great I still prefer the solos that Cynic, Fredrik Thordendal & similars play and thoose are all jazz inspired. Some DM can be pretty stiff at times and adding more of jazz arangements there would help and so forth.

So you want Coltrane solos over metal. Well he played and fooled around with alot of modes, so I can see a distant relationship there, but when you say jazz you incorperate everything. I can't hear Miles over metal, he'd get swallowed up.
Arrangements, I don't understand, do you want a big band of metal? You know what, you should try his in Sweden. Tell me how it flys. Maybe you'll draw large crowds with you death jazz big band or combo or whatever. Try it and stop trying to ram it down our throats. Don't post until you try it. I'm sure you'll go over big and make many people happy. I would stay away from the U.S. though. You see people that have suffered for this art don't take this sort of thing too well. 200 years of slavery and suffering was and is expressed in jazz. I don't think I can completely understand that sort of pain, but this music expresses it. Jazz was the only thing MY people had back then. It was an escape. That's why it is so melodic, so vibrant, so alive. So if you bring your death metal jazz here (US), I can tell you this, don't be expected with open arms.
This is the LAST time I post in this thread. I tried to show you ways of looking at things differently, but you shrugged them all off. Just remember, 200 years of pain was what created this music. As soon as you forget it's purpose, you destroy it. With that you spit on my ancestors grave.

[3pointdeli]

ok. i'll listen to those. actually, i already listened to a couple. the first sean malone track sounded good (except i don't like the singing...but i'm very picky about singing in general.)

the tribal tech track i heard made me think of a bunch of clowns trying to pile into a volkswagen. not that there is anything wrong with clowns and volkswagens, it just didn't sound like death to me. but then again, i'm still alive so maybe that is what death sounds like after all.

i'll listen to the rest later. thanks for posting those.

[Jazz]

Giant Steps,

This thread has become, for me, defending jazz music's integrety on the media that reaches the most people all over the world. I'll be darned if I'm going to let some guy waltz on to a JAZZ MESSAGE BOARD with no respect for the genre or the musicians and tell me that some underdeveloped psuedo-style is better than one of the most sophisticated arts this side of the planet.

I want people to know how great jazz music is in itself, and how it expresses ALL kinds of passion so deeply and intimately.

Coypu,

I am working on my response to your posts, you will have it shortly.

[Coypu]

I guess that even though they didn't know that they were playing in modes, it means they weren't even though they were.

Sure, sometimes they play in modes and sometimes they play chromatic scales or whatever, the point is that they let the ear decide and not "oh, lets play a C majot scale" or whatever.

So you want Coltrane solos over metal. Well he played and fooled around with alot of modes, so I can see a distant relationship there, but when you say jazz you incorperate everything. I can't hear Miles over metal, he'd get swallowed up.
Arrangements, I don't understand, do you want a big band of metal? You know what, you should try his in Sweden. Tell me how it flys. Maybe you'll draw large crowds with you death jazz big band or combo or whatever. Try it and stop trying to ram it down our throats. Don't post until you try it. I'm sure you'll go over big and make many people happy. I would stay away from the U.S. though. You see people that have suffered for this art don't take this sort of thing too well. 200 years of slavery and suffering was and is expressed in jazz. I don't think I can completely understand that sort of pain, but this music expresses it. Jazz was the only thing MY people had back then. It was an escape. That's why it is so melodic, so vibrant, so alive. So if you bring your death metal jazz here (US), I can tell you this, don't be expected with open arms.
This is the LAST time I post in this thread. I tried to show you ways of looking at things differently, but you shrugged them all off. Just remember, 200 years of pain was what created this music. As soon as you forget it's purpose, you destroy it. With that you spit on my ancestors grave.

I will create a death-jazz band once I get my chops up to the required level.

Okay they suffered and they played music to escape, this is great and all. They are however not the only humans with emotions, even people who play death metal have emotions (wow). Who says that Varg Vikernes state of mind isn't in more pain that the slaves ever feldt? One Gorguts drummers killed himself, I bet he felt worse than most slaves did. We are all unique and some people have more to express than others, bands like Burzum and Gorguts have at minumum the same feelings to express, you can't deny that.

"The end of evolution means death" - Neon Genesis Evangelion

I get the impression that you want traditional jazz and sure you may enjoy it fully. It is your choice but in order to make the genre grow and find new ways it must look for outside elements and new ideas, if not the genre will become inbreed and boring in the long run.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
ok. i'll listen to those. actually, i already listened to a couple. the first sean malone track sounded good (except i don't like the singing...but i'm very picky about singing in general.)

the tribal tech track i heard made me think of a bunch of clowns trying to pile into a volkswagen. not that there is anything wrong with clowns and volkswagens, it just didn't sound like death to me. but then again, i'm still alive so maybe that is what death sounds like after all.

i'll listen to the rest later. thanks for posting those.

Tribal Tech is jazz fusion, eventhough it shares alot in common with Sean Malones music it still is a part of jazz and has really no death metal influences at all.

Listen to the others as well and remember that I have lots of mp3's here : http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/ of various nature so anyone who wants to hear some good stuff should go there.

[Giant Steps]

Originally posted by Jazz
Giant Steps,

This thread has become, for me, defending jazz music's integrety on the media that reaches the most people all over the world. I'll be darned if I'm going to let some guy waltz on to a JAZZ MESSAGE BOARD with no respect for the genre or the musicians and tell me that some underdeveloped psuedo-style is better than one of the most sophisticated arts this side of the planet.

I want people to know how great jazz music is in itself, and how it expresses ALL kinds of passion so deeply and intimately.

Coypu,

I am working on my response to your posts, you will have it shortly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm right there with you on this one. I've been trying to defend jazz againts Coypu's Death Metal Masturbation (DMM), as I now call it, in this thread and previous ones for a while now. However, I've realized that his dopey little holier-than-thou brain can neither comprehend jazz nor intelligent arguments.

Here's my idea to rid ourselves of this condescending vermin: Instead of arguing with the little brat, let's try to get is IP banned by the admin! :) I'm frustrated and I'm sick of having his BS shoved down my throat. If hanging around this JAZZboard means putting up with this crap, I'll probably just stop hanging around.
-GS-

[jazzypaul]

Yeah, I like that thought. Because let's face it, someone who comes into a jazz thread talking about the superiority of Death Metal to jazz and saying that jazz is boring and needs the elements of bands with names like gorguts is truly just agitating the fans, musicians, social commentators, etc, that populate this forum.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Yeah, I like that thought. Because let's face it, someone who comes into a jazz thread talking about the superiority of Death Metal to jazz and saying that jazz is boring and needs the elements of bands with names like gorguts is truly just agitating the fans, musicians, social commentators, etc, that populate this forum.

"with names like Gorguts" - Listen to the music, don't ever judge a band by it's name.

I don't think that there is any valid reason to ban me. I never use personal insults and I stay in the topics that are, if you ban me then you might as well ban all people who like Fusion since it is a bastard to jazz or whatever you guys think.

[Jazz]

I don't intend disrespect to you guys, Jazzypaul and Giant Steps, because you guys have both given very well thought out and intelligent replies on this thread and other threads, and I think you guys are kindred spirits in that you both love straight ahead jazz. I have also seen you guys be very respectful when disagreeing with other people and I respect that also.

But I have to disagree about banning Coypu. I want this discussion to clearly show how superior jazz is to deathmetal (and it will do that), and if we ban him it will seem as though jazz music did not have enough going for it to prove him wrong (and jazz music is very clearly light years beyond deathmetal, as I will be showing in my upcoming posts).

But also, in defence of Coypu, he IS just expressing his opinions, he was even willing to try and use Bari's 46 criteria to analyze that Necrophages song. This thread is about deathmetal/death-jazz, and I'm willing to talk about it IN THIS THREAD. But lets just ignore comments he makes in other threads about how he is revolutionizing this board, or how deathmetal is better in various aspects. If he has this space to talk about his views then we can never be accused of putting our hands over our ears. AND, if Coypu wants to argue a COMPLETELY indefensible position that's his decision to make.

[Giant Steps]

Originally posted by Jazz
I don't intend disrespect to you guys, Jazzypaul and Giant Steps, because you guys have both given very well thought out and intelligent replies on this thread and other threads, and I think you guys are kindred spirits in that you both love straight ahead jazz. I have also seen you guys be very respectful when disagreeing with other people and I respect that also.

I don't intend to disrespect you either, and forgive me if I have. I'm usually VERY civil but in this case I've gotten so frustrated and hot headed at Coypu's density that it's easy to lose my composure. I (sort of) apologize for that.

But I have to disagree about banning Coypu. I want this discussion to clearly show how superior jazz is to deathmetal (and it will do that), and if we ban him it will seem as though jazz music did not have enough going for it to prove him wrong (and jazz music is very clearly light years beyond deathmetal, as I will be showing in my upcoming posts).

I agree. However, I don't think Coypu is worth wasting any more time on. I suppose if it's really important to you -and I understand why it could be- I look forward to your upcomming posts.

But also, in defence of Coypu, he IS just expressing his opinions, he was even willing to try and use Bari's 46 criteria to analyze that Necrophages song. This thread is about deathmetal/death-jazz, and I'm willing to talk about it IN THIS THREAD. But lets just ignore comments he makes in other threads about how he is revolutionizing this board, or how deathmetal is better in various aspects. If he has this space to talk about his views then we can never be accused of putting our hands over our ears. AND, if Coypu wants to argue a COMPLETELY indefensible position that's his decision to make.

The reason I and others are angry with him is not because he likes Death Metal or because he's expressing his opinions. It's the MANNER in which he expresses his opinions. I think we've proven without a doubt that we didn't put our hands over ears. If you look at the beginnings of this thread (or forum for that matter) it was very different from the way it is now. We were clearly more open to Coypu's ideas. It got ugly when Coypu wanted us to admit that his opinions were fact and that he was the savior to lead us "lost" jazz lovers to the "Death-Jazz" light. I don't know how many times I've read "But you have to admit" in Coypu's posts. WE DON'T HAVE TO ADMIT ANYTHING. If he kept his rantings to this thread, I wouldn't have as much of a problem, but doesn't.

Jazz, I have great respect for you and your ideas, I just think that this was all unnecessary to begin with. All of it. Coypu's stunting our "forum growth."

-GS-

[Jazz]

Giant Steps,

Thank you for your very evenhanded reply, and just to let you know I don't think anyone on this board has ever disrespected me. I actually think this is one of the best forums out there, that's why I stick around so much! :D

Coypu,

Originally posted by Coypu
Okay they suffered and they played music to escape, this is great and all. They are however not the only humans with emotions, even people who play death metal have emotions (wow). Who says that Varg Vikernes state of mind isn't in more pain that the slaves ever feldt? One Gorguts drummers killed himself, I bet he felt worse than most slaves did. We are all unique and some people have more to express than others, bands like Burzum and Gorguts have at minumum the same feelings to express, you can't deny that.

I can and do deny that. I'm sorry, are you saying that a deathmetal musician understands the generations of torment that accompanied slavery in America? The Gorguts drummer who killed himself knew what it was like to be someone's property with no more value than a chair or a table lamp? He knew what it was like to be mercilessly whipped when he stepped out of line or didn't work hard enough? He had a family that his owner seperated him from by selling his wife and children to another slave owner? He felt the pain of being forcibly taken from his homeland and shipped to a country where he didn't know the language or the way of life? He had to deal with his friends and family being arbitrarily killed by his owner while he couldn't do a damn thing about it??? He knew what it was like to be treated like he was an animal, fed and BARELY cared for just for the free labor he could provide. He knew what it was like to literally WORK HIS FREAKING FINGERS DOWN TO THE BONE? No you're not saying that, because saying that would totally shred the rest of whatever credibility you still have on this board. I don't think anybody would take you seriously again.

Coypu you should have known that I wouldn't let you get away with saying that.

If I were you I wouldn't argue with this point, just drop it or apologize, because I don't know what criteria the administration has for banning IP's, but belittling the human condition of colonial slavery might be enough to make them consider it.

P.S. -

Originally posted by Coypu
"The end of evolution means death" - Neon Genesis Evangelion


Did you really expect a quote from a cartoon to actually logically support that argument?

P.P.S. -

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coypu
But I will make an attempt at playing the piano parts on Countdown as soon as you guys record something by Necrophagist or how about a Cynic song? I asked you first, you may accept or decline the challenge, it is in your hands.[QUOTE]

This shows a fundemental misunderstanding of the kind of challenge you have taken on for yourself at this board. YOU are the one who brought this idea to us, and it is YOUR responsibility to prove it as a good idea. None of us have a responsibility to prove ourselves to you, its the other way around.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz Coypu,

I can and do deny that. I'm sorry, are you saying that a deathmetal musician understands the generations of torment that accompanied slavery in America? The Gorguts drummer who killed himself knew what it was like to be someone's property with no more value than a chair or a table lamp? He knew what it was like to be mercilessly whipped when he stepped out of line or didn't work hard enough? He had a family that his owner seperated him from by selling his wife and children to another slave owner? He felt the pain of being forcibly taken from his homeland and shipped to a country where he didn't know the language or the way of life? He had to deal with his friends and family being arbitrarily killed by his owner while he couldn't do a damn thing about it??? He knew what it was like to be treated like he was an animal, fed and BARELY cared for just for the free labor he could provide. He knew what it was like to literally WORK HIS FREAKING FINGERS DOWN TO THE BONE? No you're not saying that, because saying that would totally shred the rest of whatever credibility you still have on this board. I don't think anybody would take you seriously again.

What I wrote was that their mental pain was on the same level or even greater. You don't kill yourself for fun so he obviously felt very bad. Ï'm sure the slaves suffered but human and animal suffering didn't end with the slavery. It still remains but in our modern society mental pain has taken a larger role than the one of physical pain.

If I were you I wouldn't argue with this point, just drop it or apologize, because I don't know what criteria the administration has for banning IP's, but belittling the human condition of colonial slavery might be enough to make them consider it.

Are you a vegan? If not you have no right to judge me or anyone else, not even the slavedrivers back then.

Did you really expect a quote from a cartoon to actually logically support that argument?

Don't bash Evangelion, that serie is byfar the best has ever been made in either TV or movies. The soundtrack is great too, lots of jazz. Evangelion have lots on sensible things in it. But what happens when things stop to evovle, basic survival on for a speices is made out a few factor like selection, mutation and such. When something stops to evolve the chance for it to be extinct increases. Imagine a plague that spreads like hell and kills all human, a few might survive if they are "mutated" and maybe have formed somekind of imunity but without that we would all be excinct. Same with jazz, if we just play it traditionally then people will loose interest since nothing new happens and everyone just is rehashing the old stuff. It happened in DM at about 1994 but thankfully some bands broke boundaries and the genre survived.


This shows a fundemental misunderstanding of the kind of challenge you have taken on for yourself at this board. YOU are the one who brought this idea to us, and it is YOUR responsibility to prove it as a good idea. None of us have a responsibility to prove ourselves to you, its the other way around.

If you guys can't do it then just say it. I will start working on countdown, we shall see how it goes and if I record it you guys better be prepared for some serious work.

[jazzypaul]

Wow, coypu, you just keep digging yourself deeper...

1) If I was a drummer for Gorguts, I'd kill myself too. Knowing that I had duped tens of thousands of heshers out of their money that they could have spent on music where the lyrics could be understood, guitar players actually have character instead of just sounding like one big stylistic cliche, and drummers who actually have some sort of individuality (not to mention, a sense of tone when they tune their drums). I wouldn't be able to wake up in the morning. Not to mention, killing yourself is the ultimate sign of weakness. You have to be a pretty big pussy to say that whatever you're going through isn't conquerable by the strength of the human spirit. And that you're championing this guy by saying that he went through the same or worse emotional turmoil than the slaves did? That says a lot about you and the music that you listen to.

2) The difference between Animals who are largely bred for meat and Humans is a pretty large one. Wow, talk about off the topic of jazz...but, you're going to tell me that the cow that goes off to slaughter that feeds at least 25 people and clothes another 3 or 4 people on top of it is by any means comparable to human life? Those animals that are bred for food live happy lives and don't even know they're about to die when they go off to meet the great butcher in the sky. On the other hand, that slave had to live with the idea that he was PROPERTY every single day of his life. What in the world goes through your head when you type?

And, yeah, you learn countdown. And make it swing as hard as Tommy Flannagan does as well. Jazz, Giant Steps and I will be waiting for quite some time on that one.

[Jazz]

Originally posted Coypu
What I wrote was that their mental pain was on the same level or even greater. You don't kill yourself for fun so he obviously felt very bad. Ï'm sure the slaves suffered but human and animal suffering didn't end with the slavery. It still remains but in our modern society mental pain has taken a larger role than the one of physical pain.

That statement right there shows me your complete unwilligness to compromise about anything. There is no way you can argue that JUST because someone kills themselves that they possibly, on any level, understand what a slave ever went through. You also ignored what I said about a slave being seperated from their closest loved ones. I don't know what mental pain could be worse than that. Add to that the GENERATIONS of slavery that slaves had to deal with.

You have no respect, and you have no more credibility here. I don't think anyone's going to want to listen to you anymore.

I am still going to argue this point with you, but don't have any illusions about this: I know this is NOT a discussion. A true discussion requires compromise, and you can't even compromise the FACT that your precious deathmetal musicians DON'T know more about suffering than those generations of slaves.

Kudos to Jazzypaul. Killing yourself is the weakest act in the history of weak acts. If that's what your deathmetal musicians have to offer you can keep them.

[jazzypaul]

"Same with jazz, if we just play it traditionally then people will loose interest since nothing new happens and everyone just is rehashing the old stuff"

Being that you never seem to know about any jazz that we bring up, what in the world are you basing this on? Certainly not the latest stuff from Russell Gunn, Dave Douglas, Dave Holland, Robin Eubanks, St. Germain, MMW, Soulive, Rodney Jones, Happy Apple, Yaya3, Matthais Lupri, Mark Turner, Kurt Rosenwinkel, Christian McBride, Brad Mehldau, Wayne Shorter, or others. Because they may not be the status quo of the jazz movement right now, but they are the vanguard of modern jazz, and not one of these guys plays anything resembling your father's jazz...

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Wow, coypu, you just keep digging yourself deeper...

1) If I was a drummer for Gorguts, I'd kill myself too. Knowing that I had duped tens of thousands of heshers out of their money that they could have spent on music where the lyrics could be understood, guitar players actually have character instead of just sounding like one big stylistic cliche, and drummers who actually have some sort of individuality (not to mention, a sense of tone when they tune their drums). I wouldn't be able to wake up in the morning. Not to mention, killing yourself is the ultimate sign of weakness. You have to be a pretty big pussy to say that whatever you're going through isn't conquerable by the strength of the human spirit. And that you're championing this guy by saying that he went through the same or worse emotional turmoil than the slaves did? That says a lot about you and the music that you listen to.

2) The difference between Animals who are largely bred for meat and Humans is a pretty large one. Wow, talk about off the topic of jazz...but, you're going to tell me that the cow that goes off to slaughter that feeds at least 25 people and clothes another 3 or 4 people on top of it is by any means comparable to human life? Those animals that are bred for food live happy lives and don't even know they're about to die when they go off to meet the great butcher in the sky. On the other hand, that slave had to live with the idea that he was PROPERTY every single day of his life. What in the world goes through your head when you type?

And, yeah, you learn countdown. And make it swing as hard as Tommy Flannagan does as well. Jazz, Giant Steps and I will be waiting for quite some time on that one.

1) If you feel severly depressed for a couple of years you might end up the same way. Maybe he lost family, was raped as a child had a mental desease or something like that, Imagine the mental pain theese things can bring. The slaves suffered but do you seriously think that they are the only ones who suffer severly? And He could drum better than you judging from what I have heard from both of you so I don't think that you are in a position to bash his drumming.

2) I'm not going to debate this here but If you went through what the cows or pigs whent through then you would not appreciate it. Read "The animal liberation" it is a good book that explains the whole situation very well.

3) I shall try

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul music where the lyrics could be understood, guitar players actually have character instead of just sounding like one big stylistic cliche, and drummers who actually have some sort of individuality (not to mention, a sense of tone when they tune their drums).

They lyrics are printed, just read along.

Uhm, Luke Lemay has a VERY unique guitarplaying style, I have never heard anyone who sounds like him. I challenge you to find someone.

If you wanna bitch about drumming ok, but then againif I where to bash all the bad bassplaying in jazz then I could go on forever so drop it already, have you even heard gorguts album "from wisdom to hate" ???

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
That statement right there shows me your complete unwilligness to compromise about anything. There is no way you can argue that JUST because someone kills themselves that they possibly, on any level, understand what a slave ever went through. You also ignored what I said about a slave being seperated from their closest loved ones. I don't know what mental pain could be worse than that. Add to that the GENERATIONS of slavery that slaves had to deal with.

You have no respect, and you have no more credibility here. I don't think anyone's going to want to listen to you anymore.

I am still going to argue this point with you, but don't have any illusions about this: I know this is NOT a discussion. A true discussion requires compromise, and you can't even compromise the FACT that your precious deathmetal musicians DON'T know more about suffering than those generations of slaves.

Kudos to Jazzypaul. Killing yourself is the weakest act in the history of weak acts. If that's what your deathmetal musicians have to offer you can keep them.

Oh yeah the slaves are the only ones who have lost their near and dear, you are perfectly correct sorry for ever doubting this.

No they don't know how the slaves feel and neither do any of us here nor any of the jazzplayers who are alive. So that must mean that they are just copying the emotions of older generations while Death Metal on the other hand express their own real emotions? Ok, that cleared things up abit so sure, they have no clue about the suffering of the slaves-

Jazzplayers have killed themselves as well, how many have drugged themselves to death? Plenty.

[3pointdeli]

"they don't know how the slaves feel and neither do any of us"

true, but the civil rights struggle was only a few decades ago. i'm pretty sure there are SOME people still living, and playing jazz, who were around in the 1960s.

let's not forget that slavery was only one of the ingredients in the formation of jazz. just because nobody who is alive today knows exactly how the slaves felt (in america...slavery is still widespread throughout the world) you can't truthfully conclude that jazz exploits the feelings of those who lived in the past.

[3pointdeli]

by the way, how do you do the bold quotes? that works better than the cut and paste method i've been using.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
"they don't know how the slaves feel and neither do any of us"

true, but the civil rights struggle was only a few decades ago. i'm pretty sure there are SOME people still living, and playing jazz, who were around in the 1960s.

let's not forget that slavery was only one of the ingredients in the formation of jazz. just because nobody who is alive today knows exactly how the slaves felt (in america...slavery is still widespread throughout the world) you can't truthfully conclude that jazz exploits the feelings of those who lived in the past.

So this either means that the slavery part was only a fragment of what made jazz into what it is and that it has lost its importance now. OR it means that jazz musicians are copying the feelings of others in order to make their music expressfull. Sure there might be some civil rights people left but jazz is not going to die along with them or is it? So soon we have a situation where no living jazz musican knows about slavery or racial discrimination (or atleast like it was before). So what happens then? Will jazz just whither out and die? Or is it more like people expresses their own unique emotions and that it has nothing to do with what their ancestors where doing?

Muahahahaha the power of bold text is mine!!! ...but try using the B button or tags like this [ B ] xxx [ /B ] (without the spaces)

[Coypu]

[ QUOTE ] xxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ /QUOTE ] and the Quote button works too.

[3pointdeli]

i think my post was pretty self explanatory and that your questions are merely traps to get me to say something confusing so it can be twisted towards your agenda.

[DWBass]

Just to throw an inflection in this discussion....... A non Black African/Black African American will never never know the pain and struggles still going on today and probably throughout our lifetimes and it will always be reflected in our music whether it be jazz, R&B or funk or whatever! It's in our blood. We feel racism and denial everyday of our lives! Our stories of struggle will be passed down through generations and 1000 years from now, we will still write and create music reflecting our struggles. And we do it mainly through jazz. Joe Sample told a story of when he was in the Army back in Texas during the 50's, he came up on several 'black' men hanging from trees and upon reflecting on the moment wrote a song called 'Strange Fruit'! Joe Sample is still very much alive today! We don't get jobs handed to us, we don't get approved for home loans despite being in debt, etc, etc. We are so frustrated, that sometimes all we have is our music! We may not know firsthand what it is like to be a slave, but we feel it regardless!

Just something for yall to reflect on.........................

Peace

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
i think my post was pretty self explanatory and that your questions are merely traps to get me to say something confusing so it can be twisted towards your agenda.

No, answer my questions.

Just to throw an inflection in this discussion....... A non Black African/Black African American will never never know the pain and struggles still going on today and probably throughout our lifetimes and it will always be reflected in our music whether it be jazz, R&B or funk or whatever! It's in our blood. We feel racism and denial everyday of our lives! Our stories of struggle will be passed down through generations and 1000 years from now, we will still write and create music reflecting our struggles. And we do it mainly through jazz. Joe Sample told a story of when he was in the Army back in Texas during the 50's, he came up on several 'black' men hanging from trees and upon reflecting on the moment wrote a song called 'Strange Fruit'! Joe Sample is still very much alive today! We don't get jobs handed to us, we don't get approved for home loans despite being in debt, etc, etc. We are so frustrated, that sometimes all we have is our music! We may not know firsthand what it is like to be a slave, but we feel it regardless!

Just something for yall to reflect on.........................

Peace

I white and I live in sweden and I have never been discriminated so it's interesting to hear about your situation (btw, are you even black?). But this would mean that only black people can create "real" jazz and that isn't exactly how it is in reality as far as I can tell.

[3pointdeli]

"(btw, are you even black?)."

coypu, did you read that guy's post? if so, you might want to get a tutor to help you with your reading comprehension.

on another note, i would not say that jazz is the main way that black folks express their emotions anymore. not by a long shot. believe me, i wish it were.

[DWBass]

"I white and I live in sweden and I have never been discriminated so it's interesting to hear about your situation (btw, are you even black?). But this would mean that only black people can create "real" jazz and that isn't exactly how it is in reality as far as I can tell."

Yes, I am black! (Although very fairskinned) And no, black people aren't the only ones creating jazz. Jazz comes from ALL peoples struggles. I just posted a thought for those interested to reflect upon. I am not joining this discussion regarding what or what is not 'real' jazz. There are many people here much more knowledgeable on this subject and I would rather sit back and read everyone's thoughts. So please don't start attacking me.

Peace

[Coypu]

"(btw, are you even black?)."

coypu, did you read that guy's post? if so, you might want to get a tutor to help you with your reading comprehension.

on another note, i would not say that jazz is the main way that black folks express their emotions anymore. not by a long shot. believe me, i wish it were.

I was thinking about the image I saw on his and he didn't strike me as a black man. http://www.letsjam.com/WorldBeat/Musicians/David_A__Walmsley_Bassist/image01.gif compared to http://www.funky-stuff.com/jamesbrown/Pictures/jbrown007.jpg

.. But ok then, so we agree that we can drop this whole slavery jazz deal since it obviously isn't that important anymore and that then infact bands like Gorguts might have just as much feelings to express as jazz.

Yes, I am black! (Although very fairskinned) And no, black people aren't the only ones creating jazz. Jazz comes from ALL peoples struggles. I just posted a thought for those interested to reflect upon. I am not joining this discussion regarding what or what is not 'real' jazz. There are many people here much more knowledgeable on this subject and I would rather sit back and read everyone's thoughts. So please don't start attacking me.

Peace

yep, you are very fairskinned!

Good, now we are getting somewhere, it seems like we are of the opinion that jazz music and all other music can all express things eventhough they haven't been slaves or had ancestors who where slaves. Good.

[Coypu]

3pointdeli : you said that you where going to listen to the rest of the soundclips later so here is a reminder :

http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spiral%20Architect%20-%20A%20Sceptics%20Universe%20-%2005%20-%20Insect.mp3

http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Tribal%20Tech%20-%20Rocket%20Science%20-%2001%20-%20Saturn%205.mp3

[3pointdeli]

i haven't forgotten, i just haven't been able to get to it yet (i've been busy since getting home from vacation...lots of catching up to do.) thanks for the reminder, though.

[jazzypaul]

But coypu, this is the difference...no matter what, your guy in gorguts is a pussy. No matter what, he could have gotten counseling, a hooker, gone on a shoe shopping spree, whatever. He chose the easy way out. Much like you have done with so many questions posed to you in this and other threads. And that's the problem: your choices in music, heroes all of it, is simply the easy way out. Want to not be a sellout, but you don't want to take the time to know your instrument inside and out? Play death metal! Don't want to learn how to sing, but you want to front a band anyway? Play Death Metal!! Want to write lyrics, but don't have the brains to be the next Bob Dylan, Donald Fagen or Cole Porter? Play Death Metal!! Have no fashion sense and want to run around in black jeans, black high tops and a black t-shirt all day? Play death metal!!!

Yeah, these guys may be able to do some things which might be construed in some quarters as amazing. But what they really come down to is cliche. constant 16th and 32nd notes on untuned bass drums is a cliche. Sweep picking and tapping are cliches. Distortion pedals are cliches. Screaming about zombies and killing people is cliche. HAVING to read the lyric sheet is cliche.

You say that death metal conveys all of these different emotions, but that's flawed for two reasons:

1) they only express those emotions in the lyrics. No matter how deep and touching the lyrics may be, it's still ALL IN THE LYRICS. Which is to say, then, that it's false emotion. For a song to truly capture something, the WHOLE song needs to capture it. Strange Fruit, as an instrumental, would still be depressing as hell. My Attorney Bernie would still be silly as an instrumental. on the other hand, "I fucked my mom's bloody corpse" may be a touching love song with the lyrics intact, but without them, it's just another death metal song.

2) Given that point above, the emotional range of death metal is much smaller than that of jazz. And considering how much of that range is totally contrived (using power chords and distortion to convey aggression as opposed to minor or augmented chords, for the most part) that range becomes even smaller. I mean, could I play Morbid Angel for the woman in the hopes of wooing her? Would hearing Deicide make me want to go out and dance (not mosh, dance)? No. The only emotional range that the music of death metal has is anger and depression. So yes, your music has emotional range. About the same amount of emotional range as a "Sing Along with Barney" CD. And that goes for an entire genre.

[DWBass]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli


on another note, i would not say that jazz is the main way that black folks express their emotions anymore. not by a long shot. believe me, i wish it were.

I agree. I didn't mean to imply that either. We express ourselves in dance, acting, poetry,writing, singing, ANGER, sports and in many other ways! Just some examples of how our emotions are reflected creatively (some not so creative ) from a black perspective. ;)

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
But coypu, this is the difference...no matter what, your guy in gorguts is a pussy. No matter what, he could have gotten counseling, a hooker, gone on a shoe shopping spree, whatever. He chose the easy way out. Much like you have done with so many questions posed to you in this and other threads. And that's the problem: your choices in music, heroes all of it, is simply the easy way out. Want to not be a sellout, but you don't want to take the time to know your instrument inside and out? Play death metal! Don't want to learn how to sing, but you want to front a band anyway? Play Death Metal!! Want to write lyrics, but don't have the brains to be the next Bob Dylan, Donald Fagen or Cole Porter? Play Death Metal!! Have no fashion sense and want to run around in black jeans, black high tops and a black t-shirt all day? Play death metal!!!

Yeah, these guys may be able to do some things which might be construed in some quarters as amazing. But what they really come down to is cliche. constant 16th and 32nd notes on untuned bass drums is a cliche. Sweep picking and tapping are cliches. Distortion pedals are cliches. Screaming about zombies and killing people is cliche. HAVING to read the lyric sheet is cliche.

You say that death metal conveys all of these different emotions, but that's flawed for two reasons:

1) they only express those emotions in the lyrics. No matter how deep and touching the lyrics may be, it's still ALL IN THE LYRICS. Which is to say, then, that it's false emotion. For a song to truly capture something, the WHOLE song needs to capture it. Strange Fruit, as an instrumental, would still be depressing as hell. My Attorney Bernie would still be silly as an instrumental. on the other hand, "I fucked my mom's bloody corpse" may be a touching love song with the lyrics intact, but without them, it's just another death metal song.

2) Given that point above, the emotional range of death metal is much smaller than that of jazz. And considering how much of that range is totally contrived (using power chords and distortion to convey aggression as opposed to minor or augmented chords, for the most part) that range becomes even smaller. I mean, could I play Morbid Angel for the woman in the hopes of wooing her? Would hearing Deicide make me want to go out and dance (not mosh, dance)? No. The only emotional range that the music of death metal has is anger and depression. So yes, your music has emotional range. About the same amount of emotional range as a "Sing Along with Barney" CD. And that goes for an entire genre.

You should show more respect to a drummer who could have kicked your ass any day of the year.

Hmm, some DM players aren't top notch but some are. How many jazzplayers are on Cynic's level in musicianship? Only thoose in the absolute elite but then we have thousands who aren't even close.

Uhm, some bands overuse the bassdrums but listen to bands like Atheist to see that not all play like that.

Allan Holdsworth sweep picks all the time, he taps on occation too so bashing thoose tecniques is stupid and pointless.

As i have said before not all bands sing about zombies.

ATHEIST - ELEMENTS

I tip my head to the creation
And its rewarding disposition
Formed by something
Lacking nothing here
Something so divine
A spectacle of "Elements"
Enjoying all the warmth of fire
Longing for the breeze of morning air
Douse myself with the purest water
Something so divine
The spectacle of Elements

As storms approach the mineral
Bringing the nutrients for the green
They feed the lakes of our mother Earth
Sharing forces for the living
Yes the caption seems to be complete
Our gratitude lacks sincerity

We filter our pollution through the selfish
Declaration of only our independence,
Not concerned about the Elements!

--------- no zombies or killing here...

1) No, it is now proven that you don't know anything about death metal. Lyrics are always in second hand when it comes to DM. The music is always in focus and I can proove this with and example from a Suffocation interview :

Where do your lyrics come from?

DC/DK: Lyrics? We're not really a big lyrically oriented band. They just basically deal with reality kinda... Situations and different things that may happen as you live your life out. Fantasy and short little stories too.

One of the bands that touches me the most are Burzum and I never have read the lyrics to thoose songs as an example.

2) Uhm, if you want augmented chords then you should listen to some Gorguts. But sweet love songs alá backstreet boys or whatever isn't DM strong side so I agree on that. If jazz wants to dominate the happy and lovingly music then go ahead. We will just stick to the deeper emotions for now.

[jazzypaul]

" Uhm, if you want augmented chords then you should listen to some Gorguts. But sweet love songs alá backstreet boys or whatever isn't DM strong side so I agree on that. If jazz wants to dominate the happy and lovingly music then go ahead. We will just stick to the deeper emotions for now."

According to another part of your post, I may know nothing about death metal (which isn't true) but damn, you just proved that you know nothing about music period, outside of possibly death metal. Backstreet Boys don't make sweet love songs, because they don't know how. They make pap. But what, you're gonna knock Al Green or Stevie Wonder for writing TRUE love songs? Only an idiot would dare knock either of them, even the most jaded of jazz fans. And what deeper emotions? Yes, death metal may deal with anger and rage, but it stays there. There is resolution in the Freedom Suite, there is resolution in Haitian Fight Song. You would dare tell me that Witch Hunt by Wayne Shorter isn't deep? That Stanley Turrentine blowing on "Since I Fell For You" doesn't stir something deep in the soul?

If the music, and not the lyrics of death metal are always the focus, then damn, that sucks. Because then, at that point, it's an entire sub-genre based on variations on a theme.

[Coypu]

Well as I have said from day 1, DM are better and expressing some emotions and jazz are better and expressing other emotions. I know this and have no problem with this fact.

Jazz can be deep and so can DM, this is also something that I understand and have no problem with.

If you want to read nice things then go find a book, music brings out sound and that is what is most important. Bob Dylan depends on his lyrics, Gorguts can express things with their music instead.

[jazzypaul]

wow are you stupid. Since when does Bob Dylan rely solely on his lyrics. Have you ever even listened to Bob Dylan? Wow, dumb as a flat tire on a Volvo...

[3pointdeli]

in addition to his lyrics and singing, bob dylan is very expressive on guitar and harmonica. he also has good sense in putting together bands that can take his music where he wants it to go.

there will be no bashing of bob dylan in my presence.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
wow are you stupid. Since when does Bob Dylan rely solely on his lyrics. Have you ever even listened to Bob Dylan? Wow, dumb as a flat tire on a Volvo...

"I consider myself a poet first and a musician second. I live like a poet and I'll die like a poet." - Bob Dylan 1978

Without his lyrics he would never have gotten the praise he has, that much is obvious. Ok, his music can stand alone but without the lyrics it would be alot poorer.

[3pointdeli]

"Without his lyrics he would never have gotten the praise he has, that much is obvious. Ok, his music can stand alone but without the lyrics it would be alot poorer."


what point are you trying to make?

[Jazz]

Coypu,

Originally posted by Coypu
No they don't know how the slaves feel and neither do any of us here nor any of the jazzplayers who are alive. So that must mean that they are just copying the emotions of older generations while Death Metal on the other hand express their own real emotions?

Wow, I have never seen the context more twisted than right there. You were saying that MINGUS was weaker than your deathmetal bands. MINGUS was one of the MAIN musical social commentators (along with Max Roach, I think) on the african american social condition back then. That's GENERATIONS of oppression. I want you to show me a deathmetal player who went through anything close to what african americans went through back then. You know what, that's only HALF OF YOUR ARGUMENT ANYWAYS. Even if your deathmetal musicians feelings of depression are as valid as generations of an oppressed people (which they aren't) IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WETHER OR NOT THEY CAN EXPRESS IT IN MUSIC.

Originally posted by Coypu
1) No, it is now proven that you don't know anything about death metal. Lyrics are always in second hand when it comes to DM. The music is always in focus and I can proove this with and example from a Suffocation interview :


1) Questioning someone's ability to analyze music based on their ignorance of the musicians INTENDED MOTIVES and SELF IMAGES is about the dumbest thing, next to belittling slavery, that I've seen you do so far.

2) The fact that people could expend any effort to WRITE (write not play) deathmetal and end up with underdeveloped, rhythmically cluttered crap is beyond my comprehension.

Originally posted by Coypu
2) Uhm, if you want augmented chords then you should listen to some Gorguts. But sweet love songs alá backstreet boys or whatever isn't DM strong side so I agree on that. If jazz wants to dominate the happy and lovingly music then go ahead. We will just stick to the deeper emotions for now.

My experience is that when people are rock bottom, when they hate life for kicking them, when they have nowhere to go, they DON'T want to sit around and listen to depressing angry music. They want to do ANYTHING to escape that feeling of pain even for a second, not wallow in it. Deeper emotions are all about pain and suffering? All you do is glorify things that waste your life.

Originally posted by Coypu
.. But ok then, so we agree that we can drop this whole slavery jazz deal since it obviously isn't that important anymore and that then infact bands like Gorguts might have just as much feelings to express as jazz.

Clever that you try and make this a musical issue. Re-read my post again, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH MUSIC, and everything to do with your lack of respect to a culture that has earned its respect by conquering so many obstacles thrown at it.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
"Without his lyrics he would never have gotten the praise he has, that much is obvious. Ok, his music can stand alone but without the lyrics it would be alot poorer."


what point are you trying to make?

the point is was that lyrics are a big part is Dylans success and that his music comes in second hand.

Wow, I have never seen the context more twisted than right there. You were saying that MINGUS was weaker than your deathmetal bands. MINGUS was one of the MAIN musical social commentators (along with Max Roach, I think) on the african american social condition back then. That's GENERATIONS of oppression. I want you to show me a deathmetal player who went through anything close to what african americans went through back then. You know what, that's only HALF OF YOUR ARGUMENT ANYWAYS. Even if your deathmetal musicians feelings of depression are as valid as generations of an oppressed people (which they aren't) IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WETHER OR NOT THEY CAN EXPRESS IT IN MUSIC.


So Varg Vikernes could not express his emotions in music? Have you even heard Burzum? Nope, but you should listen to the music so you can hear for yourself. This guy expresses the suffering that chrisianity has caused for over 1000 years, beat that if you can... That is what black metal and Death metal often does, they express their feelings against the errrors in society and religion, that oppression goes back alot further than the slavery of the black. And yes they can express it more than well with their instruments.

1) Questioning someone's ability to analyze music based on their ignorance of the musicians INTENDED MOTIVES and SELF IMAGES is about the dumbest thing, next to belittling slavery, that I've seen you do so far.

2) The fact that people could expend any effort to WRITE (write not play) deathmetal and end up with underdeveloped, rhythmically cluttered crap is beyond my comprehension.


It is a well known fact that DM put lyrics in second hand. Any fan of the genre knows this.

Hmm, good luck finding jazz bands who can match the rhythmns of Fredrik Thordendals special defects.

My experience is that when people are rock bottom, when they hate life for kicking them, when they have nowhere to go, they DON'T want to sit around and listen to depressing angry music. They want to do ANYTHING to escape that feeling of pain even for a second, not wallow in it. Deeper emotions are all about pain and suffering? All you do is glorify things that waste your life.

Devin Townsends doctor told him to stop writing music that encouraged his mental illness so he stopped with it. Unfortunately his best work was done when he felt the worst. If you are a happy guy with a careless life you are most likely going to end up doing pop music, strong emotions are required for strong music.

Clever that you try and make this a musical issue. Re-read my post again, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH MUSIC, and everything to do with your lack of respect to a culture that has earned its respect by conquering so many obstacles thrown at it.

I'm here to talk music but if you want to make a thread about american history then go ahead-

[3pointdeli]

"the point is was that lyrics are a big part is Dylans success and that his music comes in second hand."

like it or not everyone has a primary focus.

steven spielberg got where he is because of special effects. the quality of his storytelling obviously takes second (or third) priority.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
"the point is was that lyrics are a big part is Dylans success and that his music comes in second hand."

like it or not everyone has a primary focus.

steven spielberg got where he is because of special effects. the quality of his storytelling obviously takes second (or third) priority.

sure but the only bands that put their music in second hand that I listen to is Viking Rock just because the music is so catchy. The music itself is actually pretty crappy but the lyrics are priceless. This music is however "lower" than the DM that I listen to and doesn't hold up long. Bands like Cynic knew how to Focus on the essential.

[Jazz]

Originally posted by Coypu
And yes they can express it more than well with their instruments.

I disagree




Originally posted by Coypu
Hmm, good luck finding jazz bands who can match the rhythmns of Fredrik Thordendals special defects.

Originally posted by Jazz
I'm sorry but you have just described straight ahead jazz. Listen to the Mingus big band, Modern Jazz Quartet, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Gerry Mulligan (who does COUNTERPOINT with the freakin lead, so awesome), Thelonious Monk, Carmen McRae, Wynford and Branford Marsalis, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Duke Ellington, Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers,




Originally posted by Coypu
If you are a happy guy with a careless life you are most likely going to end up doing pop music, strong emotions are required for strong music.

Originally posted by Jazz
Deeper emotions are all about pain and suffering? All you do is glorify things that waste your life.




Originally posted by Coypu
I'm here to talk music but if you want to make a thread about american history then go ahead-

Originally posted by Jazz
Clever that you try and make this a musical issue. Re-read my post again, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH MUSIC, and everything to do with your lack of respect to a culture that has earned its respect by conquering so many obstacles thrown at it.

[3pointdeli]

i'll happily admit that, like you, i'm generally more interested in instrumentation that lyrics.

i'm still not sure what the point was of your comments on dylan. surely you're not using the same criteria to judge bob dylan and death metal.

[clifton]

If you truly believe unchecked, undiluted rage is the noblest sentiment music should strive for, then by all means listen to as much DM as you like. However, jazz is about expressing those feelings, and then transcending them. Jazz moves musician and listener to exaltation, joy. Expressing rage is not the end game in music, nor do I think it should be. When Mingus expressed rage, he was doing so to be honest, yes, but he was also expressing the joy of triumph over his rage. How can you hear his music any other way? Coypu, as long as you believe ecstacy and transcendence are something lightweight, you'll never really hear jazz. To paraphrase Walt Whitman, jazz is epic; it contains multitudes.

[jazzypaul]

"So Varg Vikernes could not express his emotions in music? Have you even heard Burzum? Nope, but you should listen to the music so you can hear for yourself. This guy expresses the suffering that chrisianity has caused for over 1000 years, beat that if you can... That is what black metal and Death metal often does, they express their feelings against the errrors in society and religion, that oppression goes back alot further than the slavery of the black. And yes they can express it more than well with their instruments."

But they're only expressing one emotion. "grrrrrr, organized religion is bad, grrrrrrrr, worse than the lousiest pizza I ever had, grrrrrr, the priest was mean, he touched my balls, grrrrrr, so I'll get em back, I'll kill em all, grrrrrrrrrrrr." So what! The first time I heard Strange Fruit, I was so overwhelmed with emotion that I just sat and wept -- and I'm not black! You want "deep emotions?" That's it right there. And songs like the Freedom Suite, Don't Let It Happen Here, Remember Rockafeller at Attica, and even Jump for Joy are all about pretty deep emotions as well. Varied emotions are all about varied approaches. At its core, death metal is DEFINED by its one approach. Shit, even punk bands have more contrast than that! Ever listen to Black Flag? from The Process of Weeding out to TV Party in two songs! And when Punk has your genre of music beat out in any sense, you know you need to get out more.

"Devin Townsends doctor told him to stop writing music that encouraged his mental illness so he stopped with it. Unfortunately his best work was done when he felt the worst. If you are a happy guy with a careless life you are most likely going to end up doing pop music, strong emotions are required for strong music."

Because Devin Townsend was writing music that wallowed in that mental illness. You're right, and I agree with you, that many musicians make their best music when they're hanging by a thread. But, it's how you handle it. You can be a certifiable nut like Monk and write tunes that are so hard to play that players pass out from trying to get them right (happened at the Blakey/Monk recording sessions for Atlantic in 1957), or you can unleash that rage like Mingus and Bud Powell did, or you can even say, I'm a better player when I'm crazy like Tom Harrell did. And all of those guys all made great music that was touched by their personal histories. But all of those guys made music to get out of those situations, too. Your guy just wanted to be sad, and whiny, and play with a drummer that cant tune his damn bass drums.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by clifton
If you truly believe unchecked, undiluted rage is the noblest sentiment music should strive for, then by all means listen to as much DM as you like. However, jazz is about expressing those feelings, and then transcending them. Jazz moves musician and listener to exaltation, joy. Expressing rage is not the end game in music, nor do I think it should be. When Mingus expressed rage, he was doing so to be honest, yes, but he was also expressing the joy of triumph over his rage. How can you hear his music any other way? Coypu, as long as you believe ecstacy and transcendence are something lightweight, you'll never really hear jazz. To paraphrase Walt Whitman, jazz is epic; it contains multitudes.

I feel extacy when I listen to Gorguts, I feel an uplifting feeling when I listen to the band Depresy and their magnificent music. I feel happy when I listen to Dead Horse and I often laugh hysterically when I hear Anal Cunt (the funniest band of all time). I feel aggression when I listen to Marduk and I feel darkness and power when I listen to Immolation. I feel despair when I listen to Burzum. I feel love emotions when I listen to Novembers Doom. I feel depression when I listent to Zaraza. The list goes on but there is always a band that create whatever emotion you can think of, it is all there.

Jazz is more enjoying, I personally doesn't get overwhelmed by a feeling when I listen to jazz, I feel enjoyment, do you ever get your addrenalin pumping so much that you thrash around in the room like a maniac? Jazz seldom manages to cause feelings that bring out so much in the individual. I'm not saying jazz is bad because of this, the genre just have a more subtle way which is both good and bad.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
But they're only expressing one emotion. "grrrrrr, organized religion is bad, grrrrrrrr, worse than the lousiest pizza I ever had, grrrrrr, the priest was mean, he touched my balls, grrrrrr, so I'll get em back, I'll kill em all, grrrrrrrrrrrr." So what! The first time I heard Strange Fruit, I was so overwhelmed with emotion that I just sat and wept -- and I'm not black! You want "deep emotions?" That's it right there. And songs like the Freedom Suite, Don't Let It Happen Here, Remember Rockafeller at Attica, and even Jump for Joy are all about pretty deep emotions as well. Varied emotions are all about varied approaches. At its core, death metal is DEFINED by its one approach. Shit, even punk bands have more contrast than that! Ever listen to Black Flag? from The Process of Weeding out to TV Party in two songs! And when Punk has your genre of music beat out in any sense, you know you need to get out more.

"Devin Townsends doctor told him to stop writing music that encouraged his mental illness so he stopped with it. Unfortunately his best work was done when he felt the worst. If you are a happy guy with a careless life you are most likely going to end up doing pop music, strong emotions are required for strong music."

Because Devin Townsend was writing music that wallowed in that mental illness. You're right, and I agree with you, that many musicians make their best music when they're hanging by a thread. But, it's how you handle it. You can be a certifiable nut like Monk and write tunes that are so hard to play that players pass out from trying to get them right (happened at the Blakey/Monk recording sessions for Atlantic in 1957), or you can unleash that rage like Mingus and Bud Powell did, or you can even say, I'm a better player when I'm crazy like Tom Harrell did. And all of those guys all made great music that was touched by their personal histories. But all of those guys made music to get out of those situations, too. Your guy just wanted to be sad, and whiny, and play with a drummer that cant tune his damn bass drums.

(OT) Speaking of passing out, Devin used to pass out for screaming so hard. He has passion like no one else.

Have you heard Burzum? He had serious problems with mental health. Most people in the genre talked alot of bullshit and wrote about Satan without doing anything. Varg Vikernes on the other hand actually did get out there and burned churches and in the end he killed Euronimous of Mayhem and now spends his time sitting of a 25 year long prison sentence. He has however released 3 albums from prison though so he made something good out of it though just like Monk did. But he was the real deal, his music is also very emotional. I would upload some songs if anybody was interested but I doubt it unfortunately.

Stop complaining about drum tuning, it is not things like that that are important in more primitive DM, it is other issues, who cares if the singer in Cock & Ball torture is abit offkey, it still sounds great. Coltrane could never do a song like Red Wigglers they way they did, nomatter how they tune their drums.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Coypu
do you ever get your addrenalin pumping so much that you thrash around in the room like a maniac?


Yes.

Peter Brotzmann,
Cecil Taylor,
Albert Ayler,
Mats Gustaffson (your fellow countryman),
the mighty Art Ensemble of Chicago,
Frank Lowe,
late-period Coltrane,
Pharaoh Sanders
Hession, Wilkinson, and Fell,
Charles Gayle,
Evan Parker,
Jemeel Moondoc,
Sunny Murray,
Frank Wright,
Archie Shepp (60's, at least)
Alice Coltrane,
Glenn Spearman,
Ornette,
Sam Rivers,
Fred Anderson,
Sabir Mateen,

And so on.

[Coypu]

seriously? You probably should stay away from DM then since if you here the aggressive stuff they put out you'll probably end up in a killing spree...

try this song, it kicks ass :
fredrik thordendal (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Fredrik%20Thordendal%20-%20Sol%20Niger%20Within%203.33%20-%2016.mp3) , I know that one of Holdsworths keyboard players love Thordendal so check it out, The stuff is wild.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Coypu
try this song, it kicks ass :
fredrik thordendal (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Fredrik%20Thordendal%20-%20Sol%20Niger%20Within%203.33%20-%2016.mp3) , I know that one of Holdsworths keyboard players love Thordendal so check it out, The stuff is wild.

boring.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by omar zamora
boring.

Atleast you had a good explanation to why you think this... :rolleyes:

[jazzypaul]

RIGHT ON OMAR!!!

that guy's got some taste. I could go without the Charles Gayle, but everyone else, I dig.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program, Why Coypu is a freakin' hack...

"Have you heard Burzum? He had serious problems with mental health. Most people in the genre talked alot of bullshit and wrote about Satan without doing anything. Varg Vikernes on the other hand actually did get out there and burned churches and in the end he killed Euronimous of Mayhem and now spends his time sitting of a 25 year long prison sentence."

You're proud of this guy? Burns churches, kills people, and he's some sort of hero? Most people that go to churches are perfectly great people, its the leaders that mess it all up. So this guy kills at least one and seriously hurts the lives of possibly thousands of people, and he's what we're supposed to look up to? No. Not when we have real heroes to look up to, like Art Blakey, Betty Carter and Ray Brown, who took good talents and made them great ones, like Gary Burton, who at the peak of his career decided to teach and pass on his knowledge instead of just going on tour and not sharing his wisdom, or Zachary Breaux, who lost his life trying to save someone else's. THOSE are heroes, not some asshole who destroys people and property because he doesn't agree with their value system. Again, if that's what Death Metal holds up as cool, and if you hold it up as cool, it says some pretty horrible stuff about you and your music. You should be ashamed that you even brought that up in a positive light.

Sorry, but drum tone is as important as anything. Bill Stewart is known by his drum tone. Tony Williams was known by his drum tone. Don't try to explain it away. It sucks, and every time you put up a death metal tune with shitty sounding kicks, I'm going to take you to task on it. No one here has yet offered up a bad sounding jazz tune. But I've been hearing crappy sounding kick drums from you every step of the way.

[Giant Steps]

Originally posted by Coypu
But what happens when things stop to evovle, basic survival on for a speices is made out a few factor like selection, mutation and such. When something stops to evolve the chance for it to be extinct increases. Imagine a plague that spreads like hell and kills all human, a few might survive if they are "mutated" and maybe have formed somekind of imunity but without that we would all be excinct. Same with jazz, if we just play it traditionally then people will loose interest since nothing new happens and everyone just is rehashing the old stuff. It happened in DM at about 1994 but thankfully some bands broke boundaries and the genre survived.

I'm glad you brought up this point because it illustrates a fundamental flaw in your entire theory of how death metal should merge with jazz to create a "more superior" music. When a lion evolves it doesn't do so by fucking a rabbit. It evolves by itself and in it's own way. Jazz is the same way.

How old are you Coypu? I'm interested to know because arguing with you feels like arguing with a toddler.

-GS-

[3pointdeli]

i agree about the drum sounds. for example, i'm a big-time zappa fan, but i can't enjoy the "helsinki concert" because the kick drum sounds like two billy clubs being whacked together. no tone at all.

[Coypu]

I can thrash the whole genre of jazz by saying : boring, but it doesn't mean that the comment is correct. Omar would thrash anything I put up, I doubt that he even listened to the song.

Varg Vikernes created amazing music that expresses his true and inner emotions. Surely they emotions and music where of the darker kind but he doesn't fake it , he doesn't pretend he knew what his ancestors felt, he did his own thing but burning churches was unessesary since chrisianity is already dead here in Sweden and Norway anyway.

If you keep being anal then things that will just bring bad things. If started to complain about sound quality, bass tone, production etc then we would do nothing else. But listen to the Thordendal song, that guy knows drumming better than anyone on this forum (including you!).

[jazzypaul]

3point, imagine how I feel then as a drummer...lol. I spend tons of time keeping my drums tuned, in fourths at that. And then to hear some guy who just sticks plastic inside of his kick drums...that's a slap in the face to all of us who take the instrument seriously.

[3pointdeli]

i hear you jazzypaul. i'm play the drums also and love the sound of a nicely tuned, resonant kit.

[jazzypaul]

I was referring to Omar's list, not his boring statement, for one. For two, you need to apologize for even the thought that you might have been trivializing either slavery or this church burner's actions. For three, the tunes that you would be bashing would be edging up on between 45-50 years old at this point. You're talking about tunes recorded in the last decade. Talk all you want about sound quality and bass tone, but what it comes down to is that those Riverside, Blue Note and Atlantic albums from that time period all still sound relatively good today. On the other hand, those death metal tunes sound horrible, and were recorded less than 10 years ago. Because no one knows how to tune a freakin bass drum.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Giant Steps
I'm glad you brought up this point because it illustrates a fundamental flaw in your entire theory of how death metal should merge with jazz to create a "more superior" music. When a lion evolves it doesn't do so by fucking a rabbit. It evolves by itself and in it's own way. Jazz is the same way.

How old are you Coypu? I'm interested to know because arguing with you feels like arguing with a toddler.

-GS-

The issue is that in the animal world crossbreeding is impossible, in music this is not the case.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
3point, imagine how I feel then as a drummer...lol. I spend tons of time keeping my drums tuned, in fourths at that. And then to hear some guy who just sticks plastic inside of his kick drums...that's a slap in the face to all of us who take the instrument seriously.

When I listen to bassplayers I usually focus on what they play and write, some have a bad basstone which is bad ofcourse but if the bassplay kick ass then I don't care. And why don't you post some of your playing so we can hear your superior drum tuning and playing.

[Jazz]

Originally posted by Coypu
The issue is that in the animal world crossbreeding is impossible, in music this is not the case.

Well the fact that you said that blows your whole BIOLOGICALLY based musical evolution argument out of the water.

[jazzypaul]

1) I don't have the equipment to do it.

2) you want my music, you buy it. I don't agree with this whole MP3 thing. At least not until I get my Blue Note contract and my Mercedes and my date with Norah Jones...

[omar zamora]

Coypu,

I admit I didn't listen to it before, but I've downloaded a lot of the other links you posted out of curiosity. So, I did download this one after I posted. As in previous cases, I found it boring.

I got nothing against you, man. I'm telling you from the bottom of my heart I found it boring. Take out the incessantly loud and repetitive rhythm (and not in a cool reggae or funk or James Brown 'tight' way, either) and I heard a guitar soloist doing stuff that sounded fairly predictable to me. It was even kinda melodic - almost pretty. And when I want 'aggressive', I prefer unpredictable, which is what I get from improvisors pouring their heart and soul to a moment in time creating something (without or without a framework) that's never existed before. And the rhythm - well, Kevin Drumm (an improvisor, but not a jazz musician) programmed some pretty intense stuff in 'Sheer Hellish Miasma' that reminded me of this. Sorry, I prefer the flexibility, dynamicism, and in-the-moment creativeness of jazz and free improv rhythms.

Different tastes is all, as far as I'm concerned.

[omar zamora]

Oh, and thanks, Paul. It sounds like you and I are on slightly different places on the jazz spectrum, but it's all good.

Actually, there's a lot of Charles Gayle I can't get with either. His piano stuff actually downright sucks, imo. However, recordings like "Touchin' on Trane" are pretty sublime.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
1) I don't have the equipment to do it.

2) you want my music, you buy it. I don't agree with this whole MP3 thing. At least not until I get my Blue Note contract and my Mercedes and my date with Norah Jones...

okay, so you can't record at all? I was hoping that you would record some DM once I did my jazz recording (working in it), but that is impossible for you to do or what?

[jazzypaul]

I can record at the cost of between $45-80/hour at different studios throughout Chicago. Not really feelin' that right about now...

[Coypu]

Originally posted by omar zamora
Coypu,

I admit I didn't listen to it before, but I've downloaded a lot of the other links you posted out of curiosity. So, I did download this one after I posted. As in previous cases, I found it boring.

I got nothing against you, man. I'm telling you from the bottom of my heart I found it boring. Take out the incessantly loud and repetitive rhythm (and not in a cool reggae or funk or James Brown 'tight' way, either) and I heard a guitar soloist doing stuff that sounded fairly predictable to me. It was even kinda melodic - almost pretty. And when I want 'aggressive', I prefer unpredictable, which is what I get from improvisors pouring their heart and soul to a moment in time creating something (without or without a framework) that's never existed before. And the rhythm - well, Kevin Drumm (an improvisor, but not a jazz musician) programmed some pretty intense stuff in 'Sheer Hellish Miasma' that reminded me of this. Sorry, I prefer the flexibility, dynamicism, and in-the-moment creativeness of jazz and free improv rhythms.

Different tastes is all, as far as I'm concerned.

okay, just tell me what you think of this song :

taste test (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Metal.mp3) , I won't bother you with more downloads after this one. I just wanto get an idea of your taste. So give me a good opinion on this one if possible.

You don't like smooth basslines then either? Jazz uses thoose ALOT and there is hardly anything more predictable than thoose so what is your view on that?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I can record at the cost of between $45-80/hour at different studios throughout Chicago. Not really feelin' that right about now...

just buy a mic and put it in the room and hook it up the computer and record. Ok the soundquality won't be that amazing but it's better than nothing. Here on this forum no one will complain on that (not me atleast)-

[Giant Steps]

Originally posted by Jazz


Well the fact that you said that blows your whole BIOLOGICALLY based musical evolution argument out of the water.

Care to respond to this, Coypu? Or are you just going to dodge yet another valid point?

-GS-

[jazzypaul]

he dodges lots of points. It's the only way he thinks he can save face. In another thread, he's currently trying to tell me that the drummer from Atheist would have sounded better on the Giant Steps album than Art Taylor.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
Well the fact that you said that blows your whole BIOLOGICALLY based musical evolution argument out of the water.

Oh well see it like this then. In the human speices there are several races, aryans, jews, black people etc. By mixing races we can create more variations of the human race and thereby increase the chance of the speices to survive. You are imagine this as much as you want, the basic point was that if you don't evolve then you are going to be outdone by someone/something else.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
he dodges lots of points. It's the only way he thinks he can save face. In another thread, he's currently trying to tell me that the drummer from Atheist would have sounded better on the Giant Steps album than Art Taylor.

How about listening to the band first before judging their drummer?

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Coypu


Oh well see it like this then. In the human speices there are several races, aryans, jews, black people etc. By mixing races we can create more variations of the human race and thereby increase the chance of the speices to survive. You are imagine this as much as you want, the basic point was that if you don't evolve then you are going to be outdone by someone/something else. On that point, If you want to evolve as a bassist, shouldn't you incorporate or assimilate all facets of the instrument? Why then, will you not incorporate 'slap' into your skills?? You talked about 'fusing' DM with jazz or any genre to make DM or Jazz better! Why does that not apply to you personally?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
On that point, If you want to evolve as a bassist, shouldn't you incorporate or assimilate all facets of the instrument? Why then, will you not incorporate 'slap' into your skills?? You talked about 'fusing' DM with jazz or any genre to make DM or Jazz better! Why does that not apply to you personally?

Well I might learn it later on but at the moment I have much otherthing to learn first that has higher prioty. I want to learn atleast some form of slapping since some of my favorites use it at times like Doug Keyser & Tony Choy. I'm currently learning to play smooth jazz lines, that is something very few metal bassplayers dig into so I do my best. But as a fellow bassplayer you should know how much there is to learn to become a overall solid musician and you can't learn all at once.

[Jazz]

Okay, I'm really tired of Coypu trying to get away with saying that he doesn't think that deathmetal is NECESSARILY better than jazz. We all know he does think that, so I compiled this list of quotes entirely from Coypu's posts ONLY FROM THIS THREAD and pretty much in chronological order. It is organized like this. First you will see a quote or two from Coypu stating that he didn't say bad things about jazz, then will follow a ton of quotes, all jazz-derogatory, of things he said BEFORE HE SAID HE WASN'T TRYING TO INSULT JAZZ.

Originally posted by Coypu
1. I never bashed jazz

Originally posted by Coypu
But the point is that DM has it all but when it comes to some emotions the power of DM is just so much stronger than anything you get from jazz. You will never find a jazz band that creates the eerie atmosphere of Immolation as an example. And you will definately not find a more brutal band than Suffocation and you can never match the aggression of Sarvophagus. etc. DM is supreme in thoose areas and equal to jazz in the others.

Well, the coltrane song is indeed intense but listen to both songs on high volume and compare. You should notice that Coltrane looks pretty soft in comparison. I like Coltrane alot but as far as intensity he just doesn't stand a chance against death and black metal.

What jazz often seem to be lacking is structure and advanced compositions

Atheist is the most primitive example but Cynics music is beyond anything I have ever heard in jazz.

...from what I have heard sofar DM still owns jazz as far as composed technical musical goes.

So far he's said that DM expresses every emotion just as well OR BETTER than jazz, that Coltrane (considered to be one of THE most intense jazz has to offer) is way less intense than metal, that jazz lacks structure and compositional value, that Cynic's music is beyond any jazz, and that DM is better at being technical and better at composition, AND THEN says he "never bashed jazz".

I don't see what Coypu even thinks jazz can bring to his supreme style of music.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Coypu
I don't claim that DM is better than jazz, I do feel like some parts of DM are stronger than jazz and also that some jazz elements are stronger than DM.

Originally posted by Coypu
And I'm still NOT TRYING TO SAY THAT DEATH METAL IS BETTER THAN JAZZ,

Originally posted by Coypu
Spastic Ink is 0% improvised but incredibly technical for all musicians and they have complexity I have never heard improvised.

Well ask any of thoose to improvise something that sounds as mathematical and perfect as Spastic Ink then... It can't be done.

So how is Spastic Ink more mathematically perfect than jazz? Well, probaly because the music is 0% improvised and have beenpracticed til perfection.

Gary Willis is however the bassplayer I am most impressed by along with Sean Malone so things look bright for technical metal, death metal, fusion & prog rock/metal as far as bassplaying goes. Jazz on the other hand seem to have fallen behind.

Okay, so far he says he's not claiming that deathmetal is better than jazz, except for the areas of: technicality, mathematicality, perfection, and bassplaying in general, plus the areas he mentioned last time: emotional expression, intensity, structure, and composition.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Coypu
I didn't knock Mingus

Originally posted by Coypu
Charles Mingus more aggresive than DM? Yeah sure, the song New Fables really put Concatenation so shame huh?

I don't care if Mingus could play aggressive on a triangle, slapp it on his ass or play it on a double bass, the fact remains that it sounds like Britney Spears compared to bands like Disgorge.

I guess comparing Mingus to Britney Spears wasn't meant as an insult. I guess Coypu must really like Mingus to compare him to Britney.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Coypu
I appreciate the skill in many jazz artists and so on.

Originally posted by Coypu
Well Spastic Ink is one band that could teach any jazz band of how to create difficult songs to play.

Glenn Gould (RIP) could outplay anyone in jazz considering what I have heard sofar. But if you disagree then bring out some soundclips.

Immolation have a darker atmosphere and sound than any jazz band so they are obviously supreme to jazz in that area.

Marduk has an overall intensity and aggression far greater than anything in jazz.

It includes pop, rock, prog rock/metal, fusion & jazz. Clean vocals, acoustic instruments at times, melodies etc. You will find that the variety of theese guys is far greater than practically anyone from jazz.

I shall listen to the guys you mentioned, I doubt that they will be of the same caliber as Gorguts but maybe I'm in for a suprise this time.

Conclusion, Necrophagist conveyed stronger emotions and had a overall more advanced approach but coltrane himself lifted his song to compensate for this but my vote goes to necrophagist since they had a stronger overall approach.

let us imagine that we give Lars K Norberg 4 weeks to study up on countdown, I bet you alot that he could improvise something far better on it.

Play me The Thordendal Medley and I'll shutup but untill then the drummer on countdown will forever look like an amateur.

But seriously, any jackass can play the piano parts in that coltrane song for example

Where's that appreciation for jazz musician's skills again? What's that about a jackass playing piano for Coltrane?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Coypu
I'm not saying jazz is bad because of this, the genre just have a more subtle way which is both good and bad.

Originally posted by Coypu
Hmm, the piano parts in Countdown isn't that amazing, it even borders to lame. If Glenn Gould had played in his place you had noticed a HUGE difference.

Hmm, some DM players aren't top notch but some are. How many jazzplayers are on Cynic's level in musicianship? Only thoose in the absolute elite but then we have thousands who aren't even close.

Hmm, good luck finding jazz bands who can match the rhythmns of Fredrik Thordendals special defects.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me just reiterate what DM is better than jazz at: emotional expression, intensity, structure, composition, technicality, mathematicality, perfection, bassplaying, Oh yeah and what's that? Overall musicianship: "I shall listen to the guys you mentioned, I doubt that they will be of the same caliber as Gorguts but maybe I'm in for a suprise this time."

I hope that lays bare to everybody who reads this thread why we got so offended. Go and look up the quotes yourself, I started looking from page one. AND IF YOU SEE THAT COYPU HAS EDITED ALL THOSE OLD RESPONSES FROM JAN 16TH OR AFTER, well we all will know what happened won't we?

Coypu I DARE you to argue with this post.

[Jazz]

Let me just add after that post:

Coypu I still respect your right to have your own opinions, but I STILL think your opinions are not based on reality.

My next post in this thread will be about music, no more semantics for me please.

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Coypu


I'm currently learning to play smooth jazz lines, that is something very few metal bassplayers dig into so I do my best. Well as a fellow bassist, let me suggest that you not let your favorite DM bassists dictate how you evolve as a musician. Listen to other musics and styles objectively and not compare them to DM. It's like apples to oranges, not the same. You will also evolve as a person at the same time. ;)

[Coypu]

seriously, have you heard any jazzband or player improvise something like Spastic Ink? Name it then!

Coltrane more intense than Sarcophagus? I think not.

Well does New Fables put concatenation (meshuggah) to shame in terms of aggression? Nope.

Well Mingus sound soft compared to Disgorge, but hey even Suffocation sound soft compared to them so don't take it so hard.

Well, the coltrane piano comment was maybe abit harsh, but Glenn Gould would do a better job. Listen to The Goldberg Variations played by Gould if you are in doubt.

So if you want to proove me wrong then give me some answered to what I wrote above.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
Well as a fellow bassist, let me suggest that you not let your favorite DM bassists dictate how you evolve as a musician. Listen to other musics and styles objectively and not compare them to DM. It's like apples to oranges, not the same. You will also evolve as a person at the same time. ;)

Gary Willis is my largest influnce right now so it's not a problem. I have a good mixture of influences so I don't think that I'm in trouble. Thanks for the advice anyway, I appreciate any help I can get.

[Jazz]

Originally posted by Coypu
seriously, have you heard any jazzband or player improvise something like Spastic Ink? Name it then!

Coltrane more intense than Sarcophagus? I think not.

Well does New Fables put concatenation (meshuggah) to shame in terms of aggression? Nope.

Well Mingus sound soft compared to Disgorge, but hey even Suffocation sound soft compared to them so don't take it so hard.

Well, the coltrane piano comment was maybe abit harsh, but Glenn Gould would do a better job. Listen to The Goldberg Variations played by Gould if you are in doubt.

So if you want to proove me wrong then give me some answered to what I wrote above.

firstly, my last big post was not about your specific arguments, it was about the fact that you try and say you don't think deathmetal is better than jazz. Now you will not be able to hide behind that.

secondly, Jazzypaul, Bari, and I (and plenty of other people too) gave you a ton of reasons why all of the above is incorrect. We went from the definitions of aggression and intensity, to proving that you have an exclusively semiotic way of hearing all music, to Bari's 46 criteria (not just for jazz music, it applies to any kind of music at all, just cause you don't think so doesn't make that true) that anyone knows your deathmetal will not stand up to. If you think I'm going to type all of that up all over again just so you can ignore it then you are crazy. Go look it up again on the old posts.

thirdly, all those things will be moot soon. I am only going to post a few more times on this thread

[Coypu]

So Glenn Gould is not a superior piano player to the guy on countdown?

You guys haven't prooven much at all actually. I still haven't hard a jazz band improvise like something that sounds like Spastic ink and you guys posted a big list of elements to look for in music. Ok, what did you proove with that? Nothing. I use both semiotic and non semiotic way to hear things so what?

Give me some examples! I can give you examples of why Glenn Gould owns that guy. Do you want them?

[Jazz]

Originally posted by Coypu
So Glenn Gould is not a superior piano player to the guy on countdown?

What you don't seem to realize is that practically every Coltrane song has been scrutinized by greater musicians then either of us for decades now. Go argue it with one of those guys.

[quote]Originally posted by Coypu
I still haven't hard a jazz band improvise like something that sounds like Spastic ink

Maybe there is no jazz that "sounds" like Spastic ink but there is plenty of jazz with more musicality and development and we have all given you examples.

Originally posted by Coypu
you guys posted a big list of elements to look for in music. Ok, what did you proove with that? Nothing. [/i]

We proved that what all educated musicians look for in good music does not exist in deathmetal.

[quote]Originally posted by Coypu
I use both semiotic and non semiotic way to hear things so what?

No you don't, and I proved it and so did deathmetalsux. Go look at the old posts already!

[Giant Steps]

Originally posted by Coypu
So Glenn Gould is not a superior piano player to the guy on countdown?

You guys haven't prooven much at all actually. I still haven't hard a jazz band improvise like something that sounds like Spastic ink and you guys posted a big list of elements to look for in music. Ok, what did you proove with that? Nothing. I use both semiotic and non semiotic way to hear things so what?

Give me some examples! I can give you examples of why Glenn Gould owns that guy. Do you want them?

Why the hell would a jazz band want to play something that sounds like Spastic Ink's masturbatory, self-indulgent drivel?

-GS-

[jazzypaul]

Glenn Gould plays a different style of piano than Tommy Flannagan. If Glen just played and played and played underneath Coltrane, I think that even Coltrane would have gotten pissed and smashed his tenor of Tommy's head! It's called comping for a reason, you are complimenting the other players.

Don't use Messhugah against me on this thread you (expletives deleted) (wait, more expletives deleted)! But, again, using New Fables as a level of aggression doesn't stand, it's not meant as an aggresive piece. Well, in a very subversive way, it is, but it's not the last couple of minutes of Don't Let It Happen Here and it's not Money Jungle. Money Jungle sounds like a man ready to hop out from the speakers and mess somebody up.

you want a jazz band that sounds like death metal? Spillane by John Zorn. And go out and buy a jazz record for once you cheap son of a bitch. Support some real music and quit stealing from the guys that deserve the money the most. But, since you're going to throw that out there, when is Deicide going to play a version of "Softly as in a morning Sunrise"?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
Maybe there is no jazz that "sounds" like Spastic ink but there is plenty of jazz with more musicality and development and we have all given you examples.

No you don't, and I proved it and so did deathmetalsux. Go look at the old posts already!

The fact is that you can't improvise songs like Spastic ink plays unless you are a mind reader. Just 2 people playing the exact same thing is practiaclly impossible to improvise on the level that Spastic plays.

We proved that what all educated musicians look for in good music does not exist in deathmetal.[QUOTE]

Once you have analysez more advanced death metal then you are allowed to make a comment like this if you end up with that result. Even the necrophagist song contained many elements. So analyze Cynic - I'm but a wave too and then we'll talk,

[QUOTE]No you don't, and I proved it and so did deathmetalsux. Go look at the old posts already!

Why do I like Allan Holdsworth music then?

---

I'm glad we agree on Gould atleast.

[jazzypaul]

"Why do I like Allan Holdsworth music then?"

Because you like Fusion. You're like a broken record. You need more jazz in your collection. If it's that hard to find go out and buy some. I don't care about all the death metal you buy. Buy some jazz.

This will now be my standard line against any argument with Coypu.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Glenn Gould plays a different style of piano than Tommy Flannagan. If Glen just played and played and played underneath Coltrane, I think that even Coltrane would have gotten pissed and smashed his tenor of Tommy's head! It's called comping for a reason, you are complimenting the other players.

Don't use Messhugah against me on this thread you (expletives deleted) (wait, more expletives deleted)! But, again, using New Fables as a level of aggression doesn't stand, it's not meant as an aggresive piece. Well, in a very subversive way, it is, but it's not the last couple of minutes of Don't Let It Happen Here and it's not Money Jungle. Money Jungle sounds like a man ready to hop out from the speakers and mess somebody up.

you want a jazz band that sounds like death metal? Spillane by John Zorn. And go out and buy a jazz record for once you cheap son of a bitch. Support some real music and quit stealing from the guys that deserve the money the most. But, since you're going to throw that out there, when is Deicide going to play a version of "Softly as in a morning Sunrise"?

Ok, Glenn Gould could however play complementary if he wanted, he could play exactly anything he wanted to. But I think that music becomes more interesting if all muscians pitch in and do their work, with no week elements.

Hmm, If you really think that thoose songs really are more aggressive than Concatenation then that is your opinion. I do not agree but since you can't measure aggression there is no point in discussing it further. You should however check out Underneath The Waves by Strapping Young Lad, that song puts even DM to shame.

Hmm, I'll download that for free tomorrow, thanks for the tip.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
"Why do I like Allan Holdsworth music then?"

Because you like Fusion. You're like a broken record. You need more jazz in your collection. If it's that hard to find go out and buy some. I don't care about all the death metal you buy. Buy some jazz.

This will now be my standard line against any argument with Coypu.

ok, but Allans music doesn't use a semiotic approach so you guys are incorrect in this case.

[jazzypaul]

I use strapping young lad as an example of everything that is wrong with modern music these days.

Hmm, Mingus is okay to download when you want to prove us wrong, but not when you are about to be proven wrong. You didn't say squat about hearing them or wanting to hear them.

Of course, the second that the idea of Thrash and Jazz is mixed, you want to download that.

That all says one thing to me. That you have no interest in jazz, save for Alan Holdsworth, who probably has his own fan board somewhere out in cyberspace. So why are you here?

[jazzypaul]

no music every uses a semiotic approach. Ever. It is listened to in a semiotic way. Are all swedes this dumb?

[BariMusix]

Ok, Coypu,
I've had enough of your inconsistancies.
After you tried to use my 46 points, which by the way are flexible. They are so flexible you can use it to describe the rhythm section and the construction of the arrangement, i.e. head melody.
Anyway, a little after you tried to use the 46 points this is what you said:

Well thoose are jazz criterias, if we judge by death metal criterias you will end up in the same position. No jazz bands have blast beats, hyper blasts, 4 finger playing bassplayers, or inhaled low growling or inhaled high pitch screaming. how well do they use distorition and pitch shifters? Get my point here? I could thrash any jazz with using thoose criterias.

What you fail to realize is that is how you judge jazz already, by Death Metal criteria. That is why this thread is so freakin' long. I "get your point." You do thrash jazz using Death Metal criteria and will continue to do so.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
no music every uses a semiotic approach. Ever. It is listened
to in a semiotic way. Are all swedes this dumb?

You guys often use terms that are hard for me to understand if we would take this conversation in Swedish then you would realise that it is not that easy. För nu fattar du väl inte någonting eller?

I use strapping young lad as an example of everything that is wrong with modern music these days.

Hmm, Mingus is okay to download when you want to prove us wrong, but not when you are about to be proven wrong. You didn't say squat about hearing them or wanting to hear them.

Of course, the second that the idea of Thrash and Jazz is mixed, you want to download that.

That all says one thing to me. That you have no interest in jazz, save for Alan Holdsworth, who probably has his own fan board somewhere out in cyberspace. So why are you here?

Seriously, finding Mingus mp3's is hard, if you guys posted soundclips like I do when I give examples it would help ALOT!

I have interest in jazz, I like some jazz what of this do you not understand?

[Coypu]

Ok, Coypu,
I've had enough of your inconsistancies.
After you tried to use my 46 points, which by the way are flexible. They are so flexible you can use it to describe the rhythm section and the construction of the arrangement, i.e. head melody.
Anyway, a little after you tried to use the 46 points this is what you said:

quote:
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Well thoose are jazz criterias, if we judge by death metal criterias you will end up in the same position. No jazz bands have blast beats, hyper blasts, 4 finger playing bassplayers, or inhaled low growling or inhaled high pitch screaming. how well do they use distorition and pitch shifters? Get my point here? I could thrash any jazz with using thoose criterias.
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What you fail to realize is that is how you judge jazz already, by Death Metal criteria. That is why this thread is so freakin' long. I "get your point." You do thrash jazz using Death Metal criteria and will continue to do so.

Hmm, if I did then I would despise coltrane, go to a Cannibal Corpse board and post some sound samples of coltrane and see how much they like it. I do not judge jazz by thoose criteria because if I did I wouldn't like coltrane, hodsworth or even Sean Malone.

Why can't you guys use the criteria to show me how it is supposed to be done? It is not an easy task for me since many of thoose words are beyond my english knowledge. Analyse this : http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/x06.mp3

[Jazz]

Originally posted by Coypu
I'm glad we agree on Gould atleast.

That's really weak just like all your arguments. You know very well I disagree with you I'm just tired of arguing with you. Its those kind of arguing tactics that show everybody that you aren't really interested in exchanging ideas.

[quote]Originally posted by Coypu
Ok, Glenn Gould could however play complementary if he wanted, he could play exactly anything he wanted to. [/i]

Guh? How do you know that? That's pure speculation, and you treat it like fact. I think Thor would win in a fight against Superman so there.

[jazzypaul]

"I have interest in jazz, I like some jazz what of this do you not understand?"

If you had interest in jazz, you would talk about it. Instead it's just "blah blah blah, Death Metal" "blah blah blah Sean Malone," or, if we're "lucky," "blah blah blah Allan Holdsworth." Just once, something revelatory, something noteworthy to say about Mingus, Monk, Webster, Miles, Long Tall Dexter, Sonny Stitt, Gene Ammons, Bud Cooper, Chet Baker, Archie Shepp, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Sony Sharrock, Pharoah Sanders, Don Cherry, Ornette Coleman, Jackie McLean, Grachan Moncur, Malachi Thompson, Von Freeman, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, or countless others, would probably make me think much higher of you. But as of right now, I can't believe that statement for a second.

You need more jazz in your collection. If it's that hard to find go out and buy some. I don't care about all the death metal you buy. Buy some jazz.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
That's really weak just like all your arguments. You know very well I disagree with you I'm just tired of arguing with you. Its those kind of arguing tactics that show everybody that you aren't really interested in exchanging ideas.

[quote]Originally posted by Coypu
Ok, Glenn Gould could however play complementary if he wanted, he could play exactly anything he wanted to. [/i]

Guh? How do you know that? That's pure speculation, and you treat it like fact. I think Thor would win in a fight against Superman so there.

http://glenngould.com/gg/ read his biography, listen to his music, the goldberg variations + anything by beethoven and you will probably understand.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
"I have interest in jazz, I like some jazz what of this do you not understand?"

If you had interest in jazz, you would talk about it. Instead it's just "blah blah blah, Death Metal" "blah blah blah Sean Malone," or, if we're "lucky," "blah blah blah Allan Holdsworth." Just once, something revelatory, something noteworthy to say about Mingus, Monk, Webster, Miles, Long Tall Dexter, Sonny Stitt, Gene Ammons, Bud Cooper, Chet Baker, Archie Shepp, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, Sony Sharrock, Pharoah Sanders, Don Cherry, Ornette Coleman, Jackie McLean, Grachan Moncur, Malachi Thompson, Von Freeman, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, or countless others, would probably make me think much higher of you. But as of right now, I can't believe that statement for a second.

You need more jazz in your collection. If it's that hard to find go out and buy some. I don't care about all the death metal you buy. Buy some jazz.

I'm downloading more jazz than you guys are buying death metal, I try to learn as much as possible. I keep an open mind and if I find something I like I admit it. If you guys knew anything about death and black metal it would help this discussion so let's all do our homework.

[Big Swifty]

Originally posted by Coypu


I'm downloading more jazz than you guys are buying death metal, I try to learn as much as possible. I keep an open mind and if I find something I like I admit it. If you guys knew anything about death and black metal it would help this discussion so let's all do our homework.

I don't see the reason they should know/care about Death or Black Metal let alone talk about on these forums. I mean, the name of the site is allaboutjazz, correct?

[Jazz]

Originally posted by Coypu
read his biography, listen to his music, the goldberg variations + anything by beethoven and you will probably understand.

Okay, I did just that. I couldn't listen to any of his music though, one of my computer speakers is blown. But from what I read of his biography he was a magnificent and brilliant musician.

My only point is this, he was a classical musician! Its not that jazz is better than classical or vice versa (I do have an opinion on that, but I won't mention it right now) its just that they are two completely different things. If someone is a brilliant classical player it doesn't mean that they can just turn around and play jazz like its easy. That's why musicians like Marsalis are so famous: they can stand on both sides of that line so easily.

If you want to hear a more classical element in jazz I recommend you listen to the Modern Jazz Quartet. Then tell me your opinion okay?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Big Swifty
I don't see the reason they should know/care about Death or Black Metal let alone talk about on these forums. I mean, the name of the site is allaboutjazz, correct?

Here is a fictional example :

Coypu says : The bassplayer in Suffocations 4 finger tecnique is faster than the 2 finger tecnique Jeff Berlin is using.

Random Jazz Fanatic : Uh now, you can't possibly be faster than Jeff.

problem with this : The random jazz fanatic have never heard Chris Richard play bass.

Solution : If Random jazz fanatic took some time and downloaded some Suffocation in which Chris plays he would know that Chris is the fastest of the 2. That is why it helps if you guys know anything about DM since the genre is under discussion almost all the time in some form.

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This thread is about Death-Jazz, which means that in order to understand the greatness of death jazz you must also know about death metal that is a vital part in the fusion.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Jazz
Okay, I did just that. I couldn't listen to any of his music though, one of my computer speakers is blown. But from what I read of his biography he was a magnificent and brilliant musician.

My only point is this, he was a classical musician! Its not that jazz is better than classical or vice versa (I do have an opinion on that, but I won't mention it right now) its just that they are two completely different things. If someone is a brilliant classical player it doesn't mean that they can just turn around and play jazz like its easy. That's why musicians like Marsalis are so famous: they can stand on both sides of that line so easily.

If you want to hear a more classical element in jazz I recommend you listen to the Modern Jazz Quartet. Then tell me your opinion okay?

You'll understand when you hear him play.

I'm dowloading the some songs by the modern jazz quartet, will be done in about an hour (Kazaa = slow).

[jazzypaul]

"Coypu says : The bassplayer in Suffocations 4 finger tecnique is faster than the 2 finger tecnique Jeff Berlin is using.

Random Jazz Fanatic : Uh now, you can't possibly be faster than Jeff.

problem with this : The random jazz fanatic have never heard Chris Richard play bass.

Solution : If Random jazz fanatic took some time and downloaded some Suffocation in which Chris plays he would know that Chris is the fastest of the 2. That is why it helps if you guys know anything about DM since the genre is under discussion almost all the time in some form."

Now, this is how the conversation would actually go down...

Coypu says : The bassplayer in Suffocations 4 finger tecnique is faster than the 2 finger tecnique Jeff Berlin is using.

Random Jazz Fanatic : okay, for one, who the hell is Jeff Berlin, some gay ass fusion player? Talk to me about a real bass player. Christian McBride, now there's a cat who can lay down some shit!

Coypu: but Christian McBride has taste! I know nothing about these things, what is this "taste" thing that you speak of?

or possibly like this...

Coypu says : The bassplayer in Suffocations 4 finger tecnique is faster than the 2 finger tecnique Jeff Berlin is using.

Random Jazz Fanatic : yeah, and your 76 Trans-Am is faster than my BMW, but who has the nicer ride?

Solution: Coypu needs to go out and buy some jazz. Quit worshipping guys who burn down churches, read about the history of the music, listen to some stuff that might actually have some merit for you jazz wise. Quit being a moron.