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Johnny E
April 21st, 2003, 12:10 PM
Why The Anti-War Movement Was Right
Arianna Huffington - April 16, 2003

The Bible tells us that pride goeth before the fall. In Iraq, it cameth right after it.

From the moment that statue of Saddam hit the ground, the mood around the Rumsfeld campfire has been all high-fives, I-told-you-sos, and endless smug prattling about how the speedy fall of Baghdad is proof positive that those who opposed the invasion of Iraq were dead wrong.

What utter nonsense. In fact, the speedy fall of Baghdad proves the anti-war movement was dead right.

The whole pretext for our unilateral charge into Iraq was that the American people were in imminent danger from Saddam and his mighty war machine. The threat was so clear and present that we couldn't even give inspectors searching for weapons of mass destruction -- hey, remember those? -- another 30 days, as France had wanted.

Well, it turns out that, far from being on the verge of destroying Western civilization, Saddam and his 21st century Gestapo couldn't even muster a half-hearted defense of their own capital. The hawks' cakewalk disproves their own dire warnings. They can't have it both ways. The invasion has proved wildly successful in one other regard: It has unified most of the world -- especially the Arab world -- against us.

Back in 1991, more than half-a-dozen Arab nations were part of our Desert Storm coalition. Operation Iraqi Freedom's "coalition of the willing" had zero. Not even the polygamous potentates of Kuwait -- whose butts we saved last time out and who were most threatened by whatever threat Iraq still presented -- would join us. And, I'm sorry, but substituting Bulgaria and the island of Tonga for Egypt and Oman is just not going to cut it when it comes to winning hearts and minds on the Arab street.

In fact, almost everything about the invasion -- from the go-it-alone build-up to the mayhem the fall of Saddam has unleashed -- has played right into the hands of those intent on demonizing our country. Islamic extremists must be having a field day signing up recruits for the holy war they're preparing to wage against us. Instead of Uncle Sam wants you, their recruiting posters feature a different kind of patriotic image: an American soldier ill-advisedly draping the American flag over Saddam's face.

The anti-war movement did not oppose the war out of fear that America was going to lose. It was the Bush administration's pathological and frantic obsession with an immediate, damn-the-consequences invasion that fueled the protests.

And please don't point to jubilant Iraqis dancing in the streets to validate the case for "pre-emptive liberation." You'd be doing the Baghdad Bugaloo too if the murderous tyrant who'd been eating off golden plates while your family starved finally got what was coming to him. It in no way proves that running roughshod over international law and pouring Iraqi oil -- now brought to you by the good folks at Halliburton -- onto the flames of anti-American hatred was a good idea. It wasn't before the war, and it still isn't now. The unintended consequences have barely begun to unfold.

And the idea that our slamdunk of Saddam actually proves the White House was right is particularly dangerous because it encourages the Wolfowitzes and the Perles and the Cheneys to argue that we should be invading Syria or Iran or North Korea or Cuba as soon as we catch our breath. They've tasted blood.

It's important to remember that the Arab world has seen a very different war than we have. They are seeing babies with limbs blown off, children wailing beside their dead mothers, Arab journalists killed by American tanks and bombers, holy men hacked to death and dragged through the streets. They are seeing American forces leaving behind a wake of destruction, looting, hunger, humiliation, and chaos.

Who's been handling our war PR, Osama bin Laden? The language and imagery are all wrong. Having Tom DeLay gush about our "army of virtue" at the same time we're blowing up mosques is definitely not sending the right message to a Muslim world already suspicious that we're waging a war on Islam.

Neither is Ari Fleischer's claim that the administration can't do anything to keep Christian missionaries -- including those who have described the Islamic prophet Muhammad as a "demon-possessed pedophile" and a "terrorist" -- from going on a holy crusade to Baghdad. You think the Arab world might take that the wrong way? If there is one thing that could bring Sunnis and Shiites together, it's the common hatred of evangelical zealots who denigrate their prophet.

And it doesn't help to have the American media referring to Jay Garner, the retired general Don Rumsfeld picked to oversee the rebuilding of Iraq, as "viceroy." It reeks of colonial imperialism. Why not just call him "Head Bwana?" Or "Garner of Arabia?" I didn't realize the Supreme Court had handed Bush a scepter to go along with the Florida recount.

The powerful role that shame and humiliation have played in shaping world history is considerable, but something the Bush team seems utterly clueless about. Which is why the anti-war movement must be stalwart in its refusal to be silenced or browbeaten by the gloating "I told you so" chorus on the right. On the contrary, it needs to make sure that the doctrine of preemptive invasion is forever buried in the sands of Iraq.

Especially as the administration, high on the heady fumes of Saddam's ouster, turns its covetous eyes on Syria. I give it less than a week before someone starts making the case that President Assad is the next, next Hitler.

LeMo
April 21st, 2003, 01:01 PM
Great statement Johnny E!

Pharaohrock
April 21st, 2003, 02:24 PM
Not really. I was/am opposed to that war, but any fool knew that the rationale offered by the Bush administration of disarmanent and pre-emption was phony-baloney, just convenient "fear-talk" to get the support of middle America.

So unless Huffington ever sincerely believed that was their true motive, this is a disingenous argument to make.

The only real argument to make in light of the apparent vindication of the pro-war folks at this point is simply that military victory over Iraq doesn't suggest ANYTHING about long-term stability there. There is no guarantee it will be better, no reason to assume it won't be even worse.

Arguments like the one Huffington is making just make the left look like a bunch of sore losers.

a.j. zeitlin
April 22nd, 2003, 05:47 AM
I didn't vote for Mr. Bush. But if estimates (IF!) are correct, that Saddam killed upwards of 1.5 million people (most of whom were probably his own) over the past 25-30 years, I think we should have made the move on him a long long time ago.

jazzmusicianssister
April 22nd, 2003, 10:01 AM
I am opposed to this war, and I never believed Bush's reasons for a second. Perhaps if he had given PROOF (aka the smoking gun) I'd be a little more supportive. But I believe any killing is morally wrong, and I believe that with this war will come even more problems than we started with.

Saundra Hummer
April 26th, 2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by jazzmusicianssister
I am opposed to this war, and I never believed Bush's reasons for a second. Perhaps if he had given PROOF (aka the smoking gun) I'd be a little more supportive. But I believe any killing is morally wrong, and I believe that with this war will come even more problems than we started with.

The contracts awarded before the war even started to Bush cronies show where the reasons for this war lie. How terrible it is that other mens sons and daughters had to die in a war motivated by corporate greed! How many of the corporate giants daughters and sons were in this, and other wars! Does anyone know?

PDEE
April 28th, 2003, 08:26 AM
Oh come on... you know this was a noble war, we wenr in to FREE an opressed people..

No
I mean to kill a Dictator...

or was it to start a new regime

Nah.. it was to protect us from a country that threatened us

Well maybe was threateninbg us.. Their huge arsenal of Weapons of MASS destruction were going to damage our gigantic arsenal of Weapons of Mass Protection.

They had the evil biological / chemical weapons.. that no SANE country would even dream of developing.. not like our Boy Scout approach.. we experiment with them because we want to "Be Prepared"

Wasn't about Oil.. we've got enough for 30 years in Alaska

Hey relax, somebodies getting rich... invest in Hell..iburton

Pharaohrock
April 28th, 2003, 02:03 PM
It's so easy to be cynical of the war, and you're probably right, but probably not for the reasons you think.

PDEE
April 28th, 2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Pharaohrock
It's so easy to be cynical of the war, and you're probably right, but probably not for the reasons you think.

And just what are the reasons I'm against the war?

My enquiring mind needs to know.

I'm against the war but the above was meant to be a bit satirical.. based on the way the "reasons" have been offered.. and accepted by the public....

The Rabid right wing think its all OK because Saddam persercuted his people, an evil Dictator.. makes you feel good when you overthrow one of them.... doesn't it.

and now, according to Hannity &co the WMD's have been found because the River is polluted with Chemicals? weren't Chemical weapons a seperate category in the Bush doctrine?

Guess the rivers full of bombs....

So, pray tell why am I against war, and this war in particular.??

Please I need to know. You seem to.
My posts about it are actually anti Bush, and the arrogant lies to, and abuse of the faith ,of the populace in general.

Saundra Hummer
April 28th, 2003, 07:20 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PDEE


And just what are the reasons I'm against the war?

My enquiring mind needs to know.

I'm against the war but the above was meant to be a bit satirical.. based on the way the "reasons" have been offered.. and accepted by the public....

The Rabid right wing think its all OK because Saddam persercuted his people, an evil Dictator.. makes you feel good when you overthrow one of them.... doesn't it.

and now, according to Hannity &co the WMD's have been found because the River is polluted with Chemicals? weren't Chemical weapons a seperate category in the Bush doctrine?

Guess the rivers full of bombs....

So, pray tell why am I against war, and this war in particular.??

Please I need to know. You seem to.
My posts about it are actually anti Bush, and the arrogant lies to, and abuse of the faith ,of the populace in general. [/QUOT

People believe what they want to believe, all the way down the garden path. You'll never change their minds, as they are set!

RonF
April 28th, 2003, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Pharaohrock
It's so easy to be cynical of the war, and you're probably right, but probably not for the reasons you think.

....and the reasons probably are? We anxiously await.

Jazzmoose
April 28th, 2003, 08:39 PM
Don't jiggle his elbow, Ron; he's trying to strike a "wise" pose...
;)

Pharaohrock
April 29th, 2003, 09:49 AM
(fuck off, that shit's uncalled for.)

no folks, do you really think Noam Chomsky and Ralph Nader can tell you exactly what the foreign policy of the U.S. is in the current situation before any of the facts have come out and the insiders have come forth about it (which usually doesn't occur until years later.)

The reality is all of this shit is speculation. We don't know exactly what this was about, and it's probably more complex than we realize. In my view, based on what little I know it probably has a lot more to do with strategic repositioning in the Middle East and divesting from Saudi Arabia that it does with Halliburton or Big Oil. The latter stuff is just what corporation-hating liberals want to hear, never mind whether these are partial truths or not.

PDEE
April 29th, 2003, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Pharaohrock
(fuck off, that shit's uncalled for.)


based on what little I know it probably has a lot more to do with strategic repositioning in the Middle East and divesting from Saudi Arabia that it does with Halliburton or Big Oil.

and you would support that as a reason for the USA to attack another country???

Jazzmoose
April 29th, 2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Pharaohrock
(fuck off, that shit's uncalled for.)

My apologies; pseudointellectualism always brings out the worst in me...I'll try to ignore your "shit" and behave, sir. :)

Pharaohrock
April 30th, 2003, 12:48 PM
and you would support that as a reason for the USA to attack another country???

= DID I SAY THAT, knee-jerk boy? NO. I have never expressed support for this war for any reason. I do however, in contrast to many of the rabid liberals who actually seem to WANT to hear their worst fears confirmed about the motives involved this war, e.g. "blood for oil" blah blah blah, I believe that it may have a much more strategic and complex rationale than people would assume.

On that note, it's interesting that the U.S. has declared it's going to dismantle its operations in Saudi Arabia, isn't it?? Of course, they're not making much of this and that's probably all the more reason it is significant.

I hate the very idea of conspiracy theories, but does anyone else find it a bit ODD that there has been no real follow-up to 9/11 by Al Qaeda here in the U.S.?? I don't mean to have a lack of faith in our security people, but somehow I believe that if they (Al. Q) were inclined to do ANYTHING, they probably could have pulled off SOMETHING by now. I am hardly disappointed nothing has happened, indeed I am relieved- but there is an air of strangeness that nothing has happened in spite of the fact this country is still incredibly vulnerable.

And it may sound ridiculous, but I simply throw out the possibility that the government may have made a deal with Bin Laden. (I know, the heresy of it, but at the end of the day I believe the health of the national economy trumps any sense of personal indignation vs. an individual like Bin Laden.)

So they may have paid him off with the promise of evacuating our military forces from Saudi Arabia in exchange for there not being any further attacks in the U.S. As you may remember this has been one of Bin Laden's consistent talking points in railing against America, how we have occupied the holy land with our military....

Of course, more likely is that no deal was made but the U.S. realizes that if they divest from Saudi Arabia that Bin Laden has one less argument to make to potential recruits and in speaking to the larger Arab world.

Of course, my dad, cynic that he is, thinks that the U.S. is simply going to move its bases to Iraq now.

Pharaohrock
April 30th, 2003, 12:50 PM
....at the end of the day I believe the health of the national economy trumps any sense of personal indignation vs. an individual like Bin Laden.)

I meant to say, that I believe in the administration's eyes it would.

3pointdeli
April 30th, 2003, 01:02 PM
>>>I believe that it may have a much more strategic and complex rationale than people would assume.<<<

i just have one question: why are we being forced to "assume" anything? shouldn't someone be telling us the truth?

make that *two* quetions.

i guess the truth is too complicated...hence the reason why clinton is (and will always be) demonized for getting a blow job but everyone forgets about dick and bush's financial shenanigans.

Pharaohrock
April 30th, 2003, 01:13 PM
"i guess the truth is too complicated"-

for mainstream, middle America it probably is too complicated. There's probably all kinds of foreign policy jargon and nuance that would tire people fast. Moreover though, at the end of the day the substantive rationale for this war probably doesn't align that neatly with all of the good vs. evil rhetoric given to mass consumption for mass support in this war. There's probably very little if any mention of "liberation", "rid the world of an evil dictator", etc. in the official transmissions between the parties involved in this.

The downside of democracy: people will say anything to get elected, and then once in power, will say anything in order to gain popular support for their actions. The only possible counter to this opportunism and dishonesty is a very tenacious and critical public, of which we have nothing close to. With so many people painfully ignorant of politics and world affairs, there is no incentive for government to get any more truthful. And what- just for the minority who actually pay attention?? Not likely.

RainyDay
May 4th, 2003, 01:32 PM
I'm against the war but I don't know how anyone has the energy to keep screaming about whether Bush was right or not.

I tend to support the actions of the human shields who stayed in Iraq and are helping civilians with claims against the US and in one case, trying to get a local newspaper up and running. That's productive.

Bush said we went into Iraq to destroy/control Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. Somehow that morphed into freeing the Iraqi people. Bush said the weapons inspectors had enough time to find WMD and since they didn't find any, the US should bomb Iraq. Now Bush says the US needs time to find the WMD. Bottom line, it was a bullshit war and I'm not sure how many different ways there are to say so.

Pharaohrock
May 5th, 2003, 07:52 PM
it was a bullshit war, no doubt, but sometimes questionable acts have good consequences and if the Iraqi people can actually have self-determination in creating a government, and it becomes a sustainable and unoppressive one, then somehow in this weird, weird world, this bullshit war may have made something happen which otherwise probably never would have.

Pharaohrock
May 5th, 2003, 07:53 PM
that's not to say i'm not deeply cynical that it won't end up being some kind of puppet government of the U.S. See all that smoke blowing about why we're divesting from Saudi Arabia?? Because our operations are basically finished in the Middle East. PUH-LEEZE. Meanwhile Rummie and the boys set up shop in I-raq.

BeRiGaN
May 6th, 2003, 04:57 AM
Originally posted by 3pointdeli
....i guess the truth is too complicated...hence the reason why clinton is (and will always be) demonized for getting a blow job but everyone forgets about dick and bush's financial shenanigans.
Yes, I guess the truth is just too complicated...Clinton perjured himself, something people forget for some reason...

RainyDay
May 6th, 2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Pharaohrock
it was a bullshit war, no doubt, but sometimes questionable acts have good consequences and if the Iraqi people can actually have self-determination in creating a government, and it becomes a sustainable and unoppressive one, then somehow in this weird, weird world, this bullshit war may have made something happen which otherwise probably never would have.

It is way too soon to predict what will happen in this region. Things will probably go through years of changes. Things may never settle down. If you look at the history of this region, it's not hard to imagine decades of chaos and misery.

Chris A.
May 6th, 2003, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by BeRiGaN

...Clinton perjured himself, something people forget for some reason...

Perhaps they forget because it was a personal indiscretion to which few people would admit. Perhaps you have forgotten that Clinton was set up for the perjury by fanatic right-wing Republicans, and at great, needless expense to the American taxpayer.

Bush has not been questioned under oath re his recent lies and deceitsunder, but you can bet that he would perjure himself should that happen. And people would not forget, because the lies of Bush, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, et al, concern very serious matters that affect us all.

Do you think you grasp the difference, now?

Fran
May 6th, 2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by BeRiGaN

Yes, I guess the truth is just too complicated...Clinton perjured himself, something people forget for some reason...

It wasn't anyone's business. They had no business delving into a personal matter that had nothing to do with running the office of the President. It was just self serving muckraking. The media is always ready to jump on something like that "because we have a right to know", and witch hunters are always ready to find something for the sick public to Tsk Tsk Tsk over.
As has been stated by others, the hearings made us, once again, the laughing stock of the world.
I suggest the US Government make the National Enquirer their Official Publication.

Jazzmoose
May 6th, 2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by BeRiGaN

Yes, I guess the truth is just too complicated...Clinton perjured himself, something people forget for some reason...

As did Oliver North, but then lying about illegal arm sales isn't nearly as nefarious as lying about a blow job, is it? :rolleyes:

still life
May 7th, 2003, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Jazzmoose


As did Oliver North, but then lying about illegal arm sales isn't nearly as nefarious as lying about a blow job, is it? :rolleyes:

OR lying about the real reasons for the recent, so-called, "pre-emptive" strike as being primarily defensive and a noble humanitarion war. I guess "vanquishing the evil-doers" is a motive that people can get behind a lot easier than power-hunger and plain old greed.
Illicit sex is a lot easier to become outraged about. Enough to waste an entire year, prosecuting a smarmy sexual indiscretion than paying attention to the hatred about to explode against the West by terrorists. Moral outrage vs. Real Threat To National Security.
Quite a record of wise decisions to guarantee out safety.
We're at risk from terrorists, but nobody's having illicit sex and lying about it anymore. At least there's that. Amazing.

Johnny E
May 7th, 2003, 04:51 PM
Posted by Chris A:
Do you think you grasp the difference, now? [/B]

Of course he doesn't Chris. When it comes to seeing the subtleties in life, the gray matter, the difference between a witch-hunt and high crimes, the duped and the hustler, his skull is as thick as bedrock.

God night Irene.