who do you think is over-rated?

[ryanoceros]

we've been talking about who deserves more recognition, so i figured this would be the next step in that ongoing conversation.

so let's go folks, stir up some controversy!

[gregk]

not jazz, but U2

[Old Pa]

Diane Krall

[clifton]

In America, where corporate media have defined Kenny G as jazz (he's not, I'd call his stuff instrumental pop or easy listening), and jazz with real depth and substance has been effectively marginalized, there are no over-rated jazz musicians.

[Dr. J.]

Jane Monheit. Cyrus Chestnut. Joe Lovano. Brad Meldhau.
(ducks)

[ryanoceros]

right on, Dr. J ...although i do think Meldau's art of the trio 2 & 3 are very good (he's still overrated)

[Dr. J.]

Originally posted by ryanoceros
>right on, Dr. J ...although i do think Meldau's art of the trio 2 & 3 are very good (he's still overrated)

Thanks, Ryanoceros. Sometimes I take a deep breath before posting something like this. There are acolytes out there who can get nasty if you don't worship at the same altar.

[GA Russell]

I vote for Anthony Braxton and Cecil Taylor.

And everything on the ESP label from the '60s.

[jazzypaul]

Anthony Braxton, overrated? Nay, my friend, nay. Anthony has control of the horn that is ridiculous. He has an inner logic to his playing that is amazing to watch unfold. Anthony is the man. And the group with Crispell, Dresser and Hemmingway was all sorts of great. Granted, he's not as boring as what the average person likes, but to call Braxton over-rated, that's just, well...ouch...

[Pharaohrock]

Paul, people like to hate on things they don't understand.....nobody wants to be honest and just say "I don't get it." I certainly don't "get" Anthony Braxton....I tried picking up his biography and reading some of his stream-of-consciousness thoughts on it all, and boy if that didn't help a whole helluva lot (kidding.)

[bombastic]

Boy, the guy who put U2 was right on the money, I can't stand their obnoxious 3 chord wonder music! How about every other performer in the Pop top 10, including that ghastly michael jackson and that godawful madonna, somebody please get rid of those two, i'm sick of the sight of them and their crappy music! hey at least in the sixties we had the beatles, talented songwriters, some originality, you know they were cool for pop artists. you had some nice black rhythm and blues, some cool motown songs, a little jimi hendrix, janis joplin,whose voice wasn't great, but she had some soul at least, the doors, with light my fire,based on tranes "my favorite things", the rolling stones "not fade away" and "can't you hear me knockin", the mindblowing music of the great john coltrane himself! now what do we get ? pricky martin "livin la vida jerky", n'stink, britney smears,oops,i wet my pants again....as far as jazz goes we just don't hear it on the air, do we? i for one, am disgusted! have a day, folks!:mad: there are a hell of a lot of airheads roaming the streets out there if this is what is popular. all i can say is : Let The Cloning Begin!:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :eek:

[omar zamora]

Braxton and Cecil overrated? Well, to each their own and all. Those are two of my favorite musicians.

Not only is Braxton's skill with the horn just amazing, but he can compose like nobody's business. And with the exception of his attempt at opera, he's done some amazing work.

Granted, not everyone will dig his GTM bag (which I love), but there are few musical statements that can match 'Santa Cruz', 'Willisau', and 'Dortmund'.

And Cecil - no words to describe him.

[GA Russell]

See what I mean? Overrated!

[bombastic]

what was that new composition of his? 23851-pppq-=...quadrant pluto . i mean, come on dude, you're a saxophonist, not a physicist!:confused:

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by GA Russell
See what I mean? Overrated!

No, sorry, I don't know what you mean.

[jazzypaul]

As much as I love Braxton, I have to agree with Bombastic on this one. No jazz musician ever, in the entire history of jazz musicians has ever gone out of his way so much to seem so pompous. Granted, his names for songs are still better than mine (I wanna do Lisa Loeb in the Pooper, Let's Get Drunk and Kill All The Natives, etc, etc, etc) Something that resembles a song title just once would be very refreshing.

[hoochmonkey9]

The MJQ used to get the same criticism for naming all their songs after European places. Sure it's pretentious. Then you get the other end of the scale, the original title for Basie's "One O'clock Jump" was "Blue Balls", and Louis Armstrong always had raunchy working titles that had to be changed. My point? I have none, I just thought I'd ramble for a bit, back to staring at my navel now...

[bombastic]

the worst thing in the world is an arrogant or pompous musician! if the music is great, the music is great, but who are these guys who think they are so high and mighty because they learned how to play an instrument? i'm not saying braxton is one of these guys, i don't know much about him. i get the feeling that jarrett is like that or was like that. that's what was so cool about john coltrane. from what i've heard, he was a very humble person. as for miles davis, i've heard that he was the opposite of coltrane. any thoughts?:cool:

[jazzypaul]

read past about page 17 in Miles Davis' autobiography, and it's pretty well obvious that Miles was one cocky dude.

[Big Swifty]

Originally posted by Dr. J.
Jane Monheit. Cyrus Chestnut. Joe Lovano. Brad Meldhau.
(ducks)

I agree with all except Brad Mehldau, I like his stuff.

[Pharaohrock]

I told myself I wasn't going to respond to this, but I'm in a strange mood, so....

Wynton
Dave Douglas
Joe Lovano
Chris Potter
McCoy Tyner
Eric Alexander
Branford Marsalis (his tenor playing at least.)
Josh Redman
Mark Turner
Jeff Tain Watts (i know- probably the most controv. choice, but he clutters the place up too much, sometimes critically lacks taste IMO.)

UNDER-RATED (just to keep things in perspective.....)

Bobby Hutcherson
Bobby Watson
Dewey Redman
Stephen Scott
Terell Stafford
Don Braden
Bill Stewart
James Hurt
Von Freeman
David Sanchez
Abraham Burton
Billy Drummond
Ralph Lalama
Wallace Roney
Mary Stallings
Julian Joseph
Jack Walrath

[bombastic]

he is a great piano player. why would the great John Coltrane choose Tyner as his pianist? I saw Tyner at the Jazz Bakery in L.A. a few years back and he was incredible! A Very Respected and Respectable Musician! Anything but overrated in my humble opinion. When i reach his level as a musician, i'll be grateful. please explain why he is overrated? thanks.

[Pharaohrock]

i am actually a big Tyner fan, at least of his older output, but the thing with Tyner that you will (I believe) become aware of the more you listen to him is that he really doesn't have all THAT many ideas.

There is a lot of repetition in his solos, his music tends to dwell in one emotional place, and I've had to conclude that as much as I love the power and epic nature of his piano and compositions, he's just not that terribly creative of a musician. At the same time, I know he was quite a visionary for his basic innovations...he just didn't take his music very far past a certain point.

Chick Corea by contrast, has taken some of Tyner's ideas and worked them into what I believe is a much more diverse musical palette. Do I like everything Chick has done? No, not at all- but I find there is more interesting nooks and crannies with Chick than with McCoy, who comparatively seems, kinda monolithic....

Let me put it this way; I have to be in a very specific mood to listen to McCoy Tyner. I don't always feel like hearing slamming, modal piano over some epic, weighty theme. McCoy is a classic case of someone who needs to mix shit up more. Like, let me hear a major chord for once in my life! Something in a happier key rather than just more D Dorian-dwelling?? But I love McCoy for his early spirit.....Time for Tyner, Expansions, classic sides.

[jazzypaul]

Pharoahrock, I find your choices quite a bit disheartening, let me explain why...


Wynton -- If only because he is CAPABLE of some truly magic moments, when he's inspired. Now that he can't rest on his laurels so much or just release another album this week, we might see the old Wynton of his debut or Black Codes from The Underground. Don't write him off completely...this is the guy afterall, that gave us In This House, On This Morning, and that is a fantastic, fantastic record.

Dave Douglas -- On the sheer SCOPE of his work alone, you have to give him props. The dude gets his hands into everything. Considering what you were saying about McCoy, this should be a turn on. And The Infinite. Man, what a great record...

Joe Lovano -- I could go either way on Joe.

Chris Potter -- Have you even heard this man's recorded output? For Vertigo and Concentric Circles alone, he deserves all the praise he gets, not to mention, his work with Dave Holland's group is, just, damn...

McCoy Tyner -- Just a simple case of a man losing his edge over time. Not to mention, which would you rather hear, Paul McCartney & Wings or The Beatles? Same thing.

Eric Alexander -- If Eric was considered on the same level as a Potter or Lovano, yeah, but he's not.

Branford Marsalis (his tenor playing at least.) -- ever see the man live?

Josh Redman -- okay, you win on this one.

Mark Turner -- Pharoahrock, you are the man, but now I know that you must be deaf. His work with Rosenwinkle is gorgeous, chance taking stuff. It reminds me of Wayne, it reminds me of Gary Burton's most adventurous work for ECM in the 70's. This choice, more than any other, simply makes NO sense.

Jeff Tain Watts (i know- probably the most controv. choice, but he clutters the place up too much, sometimes critically lacks taste IMO.) -- yeah, he gets a little too into it at times, but there's something to be said for exuberance. Not to mention, he's one of these guys that, no matter how much he plays, he keeps the groove going.

I am looking forward to a lively discussion on this one...

[GA Russell]

I love Bobby Hutcherson, but who doesn't?

If I may split "underrated" into two camps, I would put Hutcherson in the Talent Deserving Wider Recognition category, while I might put a number of Chet Baker's recordings in the Unjustly Dissed category.

Come to think of it, there were a number of 60s albums whose critical perception differs from what they received when new. For example, Coltrane's last recordings released before his death always got five stars in Downbeat, but today I don't find the same enthusiasm for them.

Today Chet Baker's five albums on Prestige receive high marks, but they were essentially ignored or given the back of the hand treatment at the time.

So I guess we can conclude that certain albums were overrated or underrated at the time of their release. That's a subject that might make an interesting thread of its own!

[3pointdeli]

"Come to think of it, there were a number of 60s albums whose critical perception differs from what they received when new. For example, Coltrane's last recordings released before his death always got five stars in Downbeat, but today I don't find the same enthusiasm for them."

was there really more enthusiasm for coltrane's (last) releases in his lifetime than now? that's pretty interesting. it seems like coltrane is the one guy that is worshipped by virtually all musicians and serious music fans.

[Pharaohrock]

I admit I haven't heard a whole lot of Turner, but guys who sterilize their music of any real blues influence bug me no matter how ingenious they may be. As far as the others....I think bashers like Watts always get all the attention while more well-rounded drummers like Eric McPherson, Willie Jones 111 or Billy Drummond fall beneath the radar. And I like Watts' energy- I just don't think his talent makes him the modern-day equivalent of Elvin Jones as some have suggested. Elvin was powerful, but not reckless....Now Chris Potter I guess could go either way, as could Lovano, but I tend to look at both Lovano and Douglas as trick ponies, doing lots of "novel" projects but creating no consistent narrative through their work. With Lovano, I think it's because he's been corporatized by Blue Note to a certain extent and he's perhaps, taking up projects that Bruce Lundvall suggested over lunch......Sinatra, Opera, hell what is next? Joe Lovano plays the music of the Godfather??? With Douglas however, I think it's because Douglas is sincerely eclectic. I don't doubt he's created music of value either, but with him I don't see anything really standing out as far as the kind of music that DEFINES Dave Douglas. Maybe he resists definition and doesn't care whether he may be defined anyway, but I tend to think the people we remember most have a singularity of vision, and I don't see that with Douglas.

Lastly, IMO McCoy didn't simply "lose his edge." I think he was never that creative of a musician and consequently got stuck in one small area aesthetically. In fact I think McCoy had already hit a wall by the time he was doing all of those 70s Milestone records.....it was the same concept as what first seemed a revelation in his work with Trane and his sides on Blue Note, but he just kept adding more and more energy, longer and longer solos, to the point that his music just kind of exhausted itself. Some of the Milestone stuff is genuinely exciting but then there are ominous stretches of monotony as well.....

[Pharaohrock]

Caveat: please keep in mind that this "overrated/underrated" stuff necessarily involves different individual aesthetics. I know the Holland group is wildly popular but they just don't do much for me- mainly because I play piano, but moreover I think because everything seems to just shuffle along and I like more driving rhythms.....at the same time, I'm aware many might not dig James Hurt, whose music has been characterized as trance jazz and is totally based on vamps and ostinatos- music for the more rhythmically oriented. More melodically oriented folks wouldn't dig it in general....

[jazzypaul]

Has James Hurt ever put out anything besides the one Blue Note album which I only heard in the background once which is now out of print and the guy that was playing for me is now in a federal penitentury somewhere so I don't know if I can ever hear it again? LOL That, my friends, was the best run-on sentence you have ever seen in your lives...

[3pointdeli]

"That, my friends, was the best run-on sentence you have ever seen in your lives..."

i don't know about that, i've seen...AND WRITTEN...some doozies!

[Pharaohrock]

That's his only record as a leader, but I don't base my opinion of Hurt from that record alone= I've heard him live a number or times, and on Abraham Burton's record and others as a sideman....I consider him a real visionary. He is a great writer and he has an extremely coherent aesthetic, and is rhythmically very strong, which for me is the main criterion of a piano player because i perceive it as more of a percussive instrument than a melodic one.....on that note, I had a conversation with someone who likened Hurt to Tyner in terms of both the spirit of the music and its percussive nature.

[bombastic]

I see your point regarding Tyner from your own personal point of view. I think i prefer what you refer to as his "monolithic" sound. you have to admit, he was the ideal pianist for Trane, the way he built tension before coltrane let loose with one of his raging solos. maybe i'm just biased toward tyner because i'm a Coltrane fanatic for 30 years! anyway, i really dug listening to tyners trio.....different strokes. i like corea, but not as much as tyner, and i cannot stand return to forever(especially the electric shit).:o another point regarding tyner. i heard that miles davis didn't think he was much of a musician either, but then, alot of people feel the same way about davis, so what are we left with? it all comes down to subjective opinion. i thought they were both great musicians. there is one musician i don't think anyone here would dare say was overrated....The Great John Coltrane! A radical musician!:cool: i think there will be no conflict here.

[bombastic]

I'm not a huge fan of Branford, but give a listen to "A Love Supreme" on his recent c.d. and i think you will agree that the guy can blow when he wants to. of course, no one can top tranes original, but the guy does a nice original take on it.

[jazzypaul]

actually, Branford did an even better (and more consice) version of A Love Supreme on an album called Red Hot & Cool. It's on the bonus disc, and it packs a pretty mean wallop in its 18 minutes.

[Pharaohrock]

for what it's worth, branford has a low opinion of his first take of love supreme- he's said as much....i've heard both renditions and i think the first one probably gets the spirit of the music better whereas the second is technically executed more soundly. this is withstanding the fact though that i think it's sad that anyone would choose to cover a love supreme. some things are better left alone.

-miles' specific criticism of tyner, as lou donaldson said much the same thing, is that he wasn't a true improviser but was just using a "gimmick" (cascading lines based on intervals of 4ths.)

[bombastic]

just kiddin' around a bit, but man, why be so fussy about music? music is about emotional expression, who cares if a guy like tyner may play with possibly a more simplified technique? i understand that it's just your personal preference. i guess i just take music more on a gut response, and i always had a fondness for dark, minor keys i suppose. keep playin' that jazz!:cool:

[Pharaohrock]

dude, whatever, i was just recounting what miles and lou donaldson thought. and yes, i like dark-sounding music too, but there's a point at which you want to let a little light in too. chick corea can be corny, but he has a range of emotional expression that i think should be the goal of any ambitious musician.

[Jazz]

(cascading lines based on intervals of 4ths.)

I've actually noticed that to be a very common trick when someone (students of jazz and the like) are trying to play a little more out.

[clifton]

Jazz: It's called "sus 4 ad nauseum". Actually it isn't I just made that up. Sorry.

[Jazz]

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Can I use that?

[RodneyDude]

I think Pat Metheny is over rated. His music sounds too smooth. What he needs is inhailed growling vocals to make him more presentable.

[pacheco]

I know I'm replying to a 3-year old post, but I can't resist. I first saw McCoy at Birdland in NYC in 1963, most recently at the Regatta Bar in Harvard Square a few weeks ago, 42 years later, and many times in between. His physical skills are less than in his prime, but his musical and spritual power continues to grow. It is not required that an artist move through series of styles of the moment in order to grow and deepen. McCoy Tyner creates an energy that is unique and transcendant, and always has. As a sideman, he contributed to Coltrane's power. As a solo, his own ability to create similar power has steadily increased. In the small venue of the Regatta bar last fall, he played "Espanola" solo, and something happened in that small room that none of players mentioned above can achieve. I'm only sorry that you guys are somehow missing this! Matisse, Stravinsky and other great artists are remembered for their unique vision and style, and so will McCoy Tyner be, and it is silly to call any artist at this level "over-rated". We are lucky to still have him touring and bringing his music to us.

[Fran]

What about Miles - I think at one time he was a superior jazz musician - but his later output - perhaps following the Gill Evans period, was down hill all the way. His peak was undoubtedly the over worked "Kind of Blue" Album.
Mostly trash in his later, especially electronic, years.

[Dennis_M]

What about Miles - I think at one time he was a superior jazz musician - but his later output - perhaps following the Gill Evans period, was down hill all the way. His peak was undoubtedly the over worked "Kind of Blue" Album.
Mostly trash in his later, especially electronic, years.

Wow Fran, you are brave. Suggesting that Miles is less than perfect could get you into a lot of trouble here, or anywhere else.

I totally agree with your opinion.

[Jakeweiser]

I think Pat Metheny is over rated. His music sounds too smooth. What he needs is inhailed growling vocals to make him more presentable.

despite this guy not logging on in 3 years... he obiously did not listen to the correct material to label Metheny's body of work as smooth. That is an ignorant statement.

[duaneiac]

I'll also go to bat for McCoy Tyner. I think he is phenomenal! I've seen him several times over the past 12 years or so, both as a solo performer and in a group; saw him most recently just at Yoshi's a couple weeks ago. If what he is playing is a "gimmick", I wish more musicians could be so gimmicky. He is a powerfully communicative pianist. Speaking as a non-musician, I'm not impressed by a performer who JUST has incredible dexterity or fluidity. You can play a lot of notes, but if those notes aren't saying anything, telling a story, communicating your thoughts, your feelings, your soul, then all you are doing is playing a lot of notes. Art Tatum, for example: while I can appreciate his impressive technique, his music has never once moved me emotionally.

Tyner's music has moved me. His music is soul stirring. Quite frankly, in Coltrane's "My Favorite Things", it's Tyner's soloing which is the highlight for me. And his playing is not just runs of powerful chords . His playing of his own ballad, "You Taught My Heart to Sing" (which should become a modern jazz standard), is ornate and beauttiful -- melodramatic possibly, but it works so well in Tyner's hands.

In my book, Tyner is far from over-rated. I'd say he is too much taken for granted. Every one seemss to be on the lookout for the next hot new thing -- from Brad Mehldau to the Bad Plus to EST to Robert Glasper, etc. -- so that some of our veteran musicians, who are still producing incredible work, get overlooked.

[clave]

Looks like a Tyner thread is in order...

[straight-up-and-down]

Jakeweiser, i think it was more of a joke, that's one thing, and the other is - everyone may label anyone anyway he/she wants if he/she has at least SOME knowledge of the aformentioned "anyone". I myself don't like Metheny EXACTLY for his, so to say, "popular" output; it's because of those albums that I don't want to listen to Metheny anymore. I just stopped liking him because of them.
And I think his is an unusual case - a musician both overrated and underrated. On the one hand he's doing all this poppish jazz stuff, and people dig it, never wondering whether it's really jazz or is it only a label. On the other hand - he's into some really interesting projects which don't get as much appreciation as far as the sales go, and for those he is underrated.
Joe Lovano is a different thing altogether. I heard Mr. Lovano with the "Saxophone Summit", later I got to hear some of his own albums (for Blue Note, mainly), and my opinion is - he's not overrated at all. He's just able to play anything with appropriate amounts of feeling. Of course, some of the things he recorded differ from one another quite awfully (Trio Fascination - On This Night... and others as well), but most of all he can go in all of those directions without losing his edge. At least that's what I think, and I sincerely like the guy.
As for Tyner - yes, maybe he is locked in a cage of his own making, but he's still capable of making great music. I heard him two years ago in Warsaw with his trio (George Mraz and a fine young drummer, whose name I can't remember) and he was so powerful - like if he was still thirty years old and just off the "Extensions" session. He may be going the easy way all the time, but I don't care. He is a giant. It's like this polish poet, Czeslaw Milosz: most of the young poets in Poland criticized him for almost everything he has done since 1989, for writing anything at all; but he kept on, and maybe his later creations weren't as inspired as the ones he did earlier on, but some of them were still great - and most of those rebelling youngsters didn't have anything new to say, some of them were even copying Milosz's poetry. I've got a feeling that it's not very different from what's going on with Tyner and all those other jazz greats of the old days who still want to play.

[jkelman]

What about Miles - I think at one time he was a superior jazz musician - but his later output - perhaps following the Gill Evans period, was down hill all the way. His peak was undoubtedly the over worked "Kind of Blue" Album.
Mostly trash in his later, especially electronic, years.
Are you seriously suggesting that his second quintet with Hancock, Shorter, Carter and Williams was inferior to KoB?

I know his electric work is contentious for some (though I happen to love the stuff along with everything else), but to diminish the importance of that 65-68 quintet is just plain missing out.

Not to mention the transitional years of 63-64, so well-documented on the Seven Steps box, from which that quintet ultimately emerges. Are you seriously suggesting that the group that recorded My Funny Valentine and Four and More is somehow inferior?

You need to go back and check that stuff out - it was arguably the most forward-reaching period of his career, if you discount his electric stuff, that certainly from 69-75 pushed things ahead in other ways.
:rant2: :tearhair: :angry3: :eek: :gavel: :eek2: :shrug:

[NewJazz4Mike]

Are you seriously suggesting that his second quintet with Hancock, Shorter, Carter and Williams was inferior to KoB?

I know his electric work is contentious for some (though I happen to love the stuff along with everything else), but to diminish the importance of that 65-68 quintet is just plain missing out.

Not to mention the transitional years of 63-64, so well-documented on the Seven Steps box, from which that quintet ultimately emerges. Are you seriously suggesting that the group that recorded My Funny Valentine and Four and More is somehow inferior?

You need to go back and check that stuff out - it was arguably the most forward-reaching period of his career, if you discount his electric stuff, that certainly from 69-75 pushed things ahead in other ways.
:rant2: :tearhair: :angry3: :eek: :gavel: :eek2: :shrug:

From the "beleive it or not" filles - I've been listening to electric Miles all weekend - mostly the "Complete In A Silent Way Sessions" - and I've got to agree with you. Electric keyboards or not, this was some great jazz, and Miles sounds fantastic floating over the "silent way".

[burning dog]

From the "beleive it or not" filles - I've been listening to electric Miles all weekend - mostly the "Complete In A Silent Way Sessions" - and I've got to agree with you. Electric keyboards or not, this was some great jazz, and Miles sounds fantastic floating over the "silent way".


And how come "Early Minor" was never released before?!

[burning dog]

On the topic of who's overrated, I don't know how anyone could decide. Some people, like Miles(?), could have such a high profile that they could be overrated by some, yet still be great.

Hoping not to start the usual argument, I would say that Wynton Marsarlis is overrated by the world at large, but underrated by many of the jazz cognescenti, whose dislike for his opinions transfers over to his music.

I have recently argued against Brad Mehldau with someone who put him in the same league as Bill Evans as a player and innovator and defended him against people who say he is playng pop-jazz pianio like The Bad Plus.

Unless there is a jazz league table somewhere, overrated can mean I like him/her less than you!

[J_Deighton]

Honestly I do not think Wynton Marsalis is over-rated. I'm still pretty critical of him, but I don't think he is held in as high esteem as many give him credit for. (It is convenient to make him out to be a strawman for us jazz impurists.)
I think that Joshua Redman, on the other hand, is the most over-rated guy around. His tone is great, but his playing is toothless. The San Francisco Jazz Fest band is the biggest snooze I've ever heard, and it has some of my fav players around.
Tyner is past his prime, but I don't see anything wrong with that.
Now- I'm ready to take some lumps, but here we go- Brian Blade. Great player, but I hate both albums under his name, and Wayne Shorter's current band wouldn't be given the time of day if it wasn't for Shorter's stature in the history of jazz. I don't even know if I own any Brian Blade except for on a Dylan album anymore.
Okay- fire away.

[burning dog]

>> Honestly I do not think Wynton Marsalis is over-rated. I'm still pretty critical of him, but I don't think he is held in as high esteem as many give him credit for. (It is convenient to make him out to be a strawman for us jazz impurists.)<<

Agreed, jazz "impurists" underrate him, but in my experience people who listen to mainstream classical music ( for instance) and have a passing interest in Jazz rate him very highly. He tours playing "symphonic" venues and made some excellent records of baroque and early classical music in the 1980's


>>I think that Joshua Redman, on the other hand, is the most over-rated guy around. His tone is great, but his playing is toothless. The San Francisco Jazz Fest band is the biggest snooze I've ever heard, and it has some of my fav players around. <<

Agree.. up to a point, he has a good technique and imagination as a soloist. I heard him once live with a small band and he was good.. but the studio records I have leave me cold, I haven't played any for a long time.


>>Tyner is past his prime, but I don't see anything wrong with that.<<

Heard him recently live. The band just gave support, not much interplay. He did not have the power of old but played very nicely if conservatively.


>>Now- I'm ready to take some lumps, but here we go- Brian Blade. Great player, but I hate both albums under his name, and Wayne Shorter's current band wouldn't be given the time of day if it wasn't for Shorter's stature in the history of jazz. I don't even know if I own any Brian Blade except for on a Dylan album anymore.<<


I'm not wild about those albums but enjoyed a live concert of the Shorter band and a video of another one. Brian Blade doesn't do much for me as a leader but I admire his musicianship, (just personal preference, not a criticism).

[misstraceynolan]

Overrated? Doctor John.

[bariblaster]

Pharoah, Im in a agree/disagree mood with you.

I personally think Chris Potter is underrated. I mean, ya, a lot of hard-core jazzers know of him, but he hardly has the recognition he deserves, and I hope Underground and new albums with Holland bring him more into the public's eye.

I do agree that Bobby Watson and T-Staff are underrated. If anyone doesn't own Horizon's Reassembled, Live and Learn, and Midwest Shuffle...

www.amazon.com go!

[Hot Ptah]

Overrated? Doctor John.

I think he's underrated. His piano playing is really quite good. I first noticed that when I heard him play "Tin Roof Blues" with Marian McPartland on her Piano Jazz radio show. There are many excellent cuts on his two solo piano albums. There is a great song on his new EP, Sippiana Hericane. I don't have it with me but it is the sixth song on the EP. It starts out with the best lyrics I have heard about Katrina and its aftermath, then goes into a call and response section with Dr. John's piano and answering vocalists.
I saw him live last year and he played a lot of jazz standards and blues from the 1940s, and was musically excellent in my opinion.
His recorded output has become vast and some of it is much more compelling than the rest, I will give you that.

[Hot Ptah]

Unless there is a jazz league table somewhere, overrated can mean I like him/her less than you!

I think that this is exactly right. I do not think that many musicians are truly overrated or underrated. In my opinion, and it's only my opinion, those terms would be reserved for musicians with a factually different public perception than the reality, which is very rare I think.
For example, if a funk musician had very rarely publicly played the virtuoso bop piano that he is capable of, due to musical choices or commercial desires, but a small group of people had heard him excel at bop piano live, that would be an underrated musician to me.
Or if a vocalist could really not sing three notes sequentially in tune, and all of his recordings were patched together from hundreds of edits, yet millions loved him and considered him a great vocalist, and he lip synched through all of his supposed live performances--that would be an overrated musician, in my opinion.
To me, and again it's just my opinion, to say that Joe Henderson or Herbie Hancock is overrated or underrated is just a statement of your like or dislike of the musician's work.
A leading jazz magazine had a cover feature on this very topic a few years ago, and the critics called Benny Carter and David Murray overrated, I recall. At the time I considered it one of the magazine's periodic attempts to boost sales by creating controversy in an art form in a period of little genuine controversy.

[misstraceynolan]

Diane Krall

I know it's a popular opinion that Diana Krall is overrated, but I'd challenge anyone to check out Deed I Do and Devil May Care on her Live in Paris record (or DVD) and maintain that opinion. Seriously.

[codewarrior]

My vote for overrated goes to Eldar! (Hehe I am mean)

My goodness people, Joe Lovano, Tain, and Wynton overrated? Having played with all three of them, I can tell you first hand that they are all amazing musicians. Anyone who describes Tain as reckless or without taste definitely hasn't seem him play in awhile (or possibly, not ever). He has as much control as he has chops, and he plays a lot of different types of music with ease. Joe Lovano is swingin like crazy, and has his own sound (which isn't easy to do). Wynton, whether you like his pulic personality or not, can cut the sleeves off most of the trumpet players in existence... If you forget, just take a listen to his Black Codes album. His control of the instrument is amazing, and his arranging is really great as well. He also has his own sound.

All three of these people definately make music despite their chops. Try playing their instruments before you write them off so quickly!

[burning dog]

My vote for overrated goes to Eldar! (Hehe I am mean)

My goodness people, Joe Lovano, Tain, and Wynton overrated? Having played with all three of them, I can tell you first hand that they are all amazing musicians. !


I don't think anyone in the world would doubt Mararlis's musicianship. I said I thought he was overrated as a jazz musician by the musical world at large, because of his classical playing and media exposure, but underrated by the jazz cognesenti. There are people who would rate Marsarlis the greatest jazz player in the world, to whom Sonny Rollins (to give one example), is just a name. Maybe over-exposed is a better descripition

[jkelman]

From the "beleive it or not" filles - I've been listening to electric Miles all weekend - mostly the "Complete In A Silent Way Sessions" - and I've got to agree with you. Electric keyboards or not, this was some great jazz, and Miles sounds fantastic floating over the "silent way".
Mike, glad to hear you're digging that box. Personally, my favourite boxes go from the Seven Steps Box through to the IASW box, because Miles' second quintet - its formation and ultimate dissolution - is my favourite period of Miles (that includes the Plugged Nickel Box too).

But even more than that...we'll have you listening to the dreaded turntablists yet!!! :laugh:
John

[Saxman]

Wow Fran, you are brave. Suggesting that Miles is less than perfect could get you into a lot of trouble here, or anywhere else.

I totally agree with your opinion.

I agree with both of you. Everyone else, flame away!

Kind of Blue was the peak and it went down from there.

[Saxman]

Honestly I do not think Wynton Marsalis is over-rated. I'm still pretty critical of him, but I don't think he is held in as high esteem as many give him credit for. (It is convenient to make him out to be a strawman for us jazz impurists.)
I think that Joshua Redman, on the other hand, is the most over-rated guy around. His tone is great, but his playing is toothless. The San Francisco Jazz Fest band is the biggest snooze I've ever heard, and it has some of my fav players around.
Tyner is past his prime, but I don't see anything wrong with that.
Now- I'm ready to take some lumps, but here we go- Brian Blade. Great player, but I hate both albums under his name, and Wayne Shorter's current band wouldn't be given the time of day if it wasn't for Shorter's stature in the history of jazz. I don't even know if I own any Brian Blade except for on a Dylan album anymore.
Okay- fire away.

Fighting a cold today...so the crabby factor is at work.

Wynton: I don't want to go there anymore.

Redman: his dad is a much better player. He puts me to sleep, as does his San Fran emsemble, after having lived with the first album for a year. Just can't get into it.

Lovano: as a leader, I do not enjoy his tone, out of tune playing and overly knotty soloing. I prefer his sideman appearances.

Potter: OK. Not Trane Jr. or the Second Coming. Most of my musician pals can't believe as a sax player I don't drool over him.

Tyner: extremely predictable soloing. I've seen him dozens of times: it's always the triplet figures over and over. He was better with Trane.

Shorter: haven't liked his playing since VSOP.

And NO, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about! Happy Valentine's Day!

:)

[Jakeweiser]

LOL someone's hard to please on here yeeesh. ;)

Cannot discount Wayne or Tyner's importance to the music. Therefore I think they are underrated in some respects.

Potter, I don't know nothing I have heard yet really GRABS me by the musical horns and forces me to listen. Yet again I haven't heard a whole lot of his stuff.

Lovano, I am a big fan of his work with Scofield and Tom Harrell among others as a sideman. I am just starting to get into his leader works, so far I like. Those who wish to say he is overrated are welcome to, I don't believe it however. I think he's where he should be in the pantheon of todays players.... we often try and compare these people to those who come before them, I don't believe that is fair.

Joshua Redman, i'm on the he's probably overrated side of things although I do like his playing on Deep song, probably the only time I really dug his playing, he's a bad ass, I like Mark Turner better ;)

As far as the Metheny thing, I feel like I come to his verbal rescue a lot heh. But People who refuse to listen to his PMG stuff claiming it is comercial are turning a deaf ear to the amazing musicality of the writing and performance value. The Way Up is a fantastic extended work and probably will be quite influencial as time passes by not only on that group but for those interested in that sort of writing. There's nothing smooth about PMG, at least not to me. Sure, there are pop elements, it's just another influence that he and Lyle Mays have and they are using it in an extremely musical way.

I to was not a big fan of Metheny for a long time because I had that mental block about him and his group until I sat down and listened closely and realized how seriously amazing the music is. To many people want to classify things these days, he's not classifiable, he refuses to be pigeon holed and I think that should be commended. I can't wait for his next album... Metheny, overrated by Guitarists and underrated by everyone else.

[Saxman]

I've loved Metheny since "Bright Sized Life" and have yet to be disappointed. Even my wife, a marginal jazz fan at best, is in love with his music.

[burning dog]

Fighting a cold today...so the crabby factor is at work.

Tyner: extremely predictable soloing. I've seen him dozens of times: it's always the triplet figures over and over. He was better with Trane.


He was better with Trane and for quite a while afterwards, though I doubt we heard him at his best... less you're a lot older than I thought!:)

I heard him recently, his playing was very conservative and was actually better for it.

[Saxman]

He was better with Trane and for quite a while afterwards, though I doubt we heard him at his best... less you're a lot older than I thought!:)

I heard him recently, his playing was very conservative and was actually better for it.

I'm 46. Same him throughout the 90's many, many times.

[burning dog]

I'm 46. Same him throughout the 90's many, many times.

Right! Im 47, I heard him the 90's a couple of times and in retrospect he was past his best creatively then... but he left Coltrane in '65, made some excellent albums and had an interesting and innovative group in the early 70's, that's what I was getting at.:wink2: In my opinion of course!

[Saxman]

Right! Im 47, I heard him the 90's a couple of times and in retrospect he was past his best creatively then... but he left Coltrane in '65, made some excellent albums and had an interesting and innovative group in the early 70's, that's what I was getting at.:wink2: In my opinion of course!


Oh, I agree 100% on all points above! :)

[Hot Ptah]

When I saw McCoy Tyner several times from 1976--82, I was always knocked out. I have seen him since 1995 several times and he has been more interesting some times than others. His less interesting performances are still a lot better than almost anyone else's, in my opinion. When he has been less interesting in recent years, it has been with his long time trio. When he was always so great in the 1970s and early 1980s, he had a dynamite small group, which included George Adams for a time. I wonder if he draws some energy or inspiration from the musicians he plays with.

[burning dog]

When he has been less interesting in recent years, it has been with his long time trio. When he was always so great in the 1970s and early 1980s, he had a dynamite small group, which included George Adams for a time. I wonder if he draws some energy or inspiration from the musicians he plays with.

Good point. I've only heard him with a trio live, but my favourite albums are with horns.

[Noj]

I haven't heard anyone's entire output in order to be able to make the proper assessment. I also don't know how every jazz musician is rated. I also have tastes which are in flux and find that music I don't like today might be something I will like years from now.

Right now, I'd say I think Coltrane's A Love Supreme is overrated in terms of other Coltrane albums I've heard. I like Giant Steps, Blue Train, Africa Brass...lots of other Coltrane albums better. Maybe next year I'll think ALS is the cat's meow and rate it higher than those other great Coltrane albums. It isn't like I sold my copy. :)

[burning dog]

[QUOTE=Noj] >> I also don't know how every jazz musician is rated. <<

Quite.


>>Right now, I'd say I think Coltrane's A Love Supreme is overrated in terms of other Coltrane albums I've heard. I like Giant Steps, Blue Train, Africa Brass...lots of other Coltrane albums better. Maybe next year I'll think ALS is the cat's meow and rate it higher than those other great Coltrane albums. It isn't like I sold my copy.<<

I think ALS is great. I like Crescent, Giant Steps, Live at the VV and Interstellar Space better (the last one only recently).

I suppose you can say ALS is overrated, but mainly because it's the only Coltrane the younger non-jazz specialist might own.

[misstraceynolan]

I suppose you can say ALS is overrated, but mainly because it's the only Coltrane the younger non-jazz specialist might own.

Right - which brings us back to overrated vs overexposed.

[J_Deighton]

Count me in the anti-Potter crowd. Heck, I think that Dave Holland's prime-time just sounds like a boring version of the Lounge Lizards.
Also, Dave Douglas, while he has made a handful of fine albums, is over-rated in my book too. You read what the line-up on the back of his latest album is and you already know what it sounds like. (Do like his work in Masada tho'.)
Everybody who does dig Joshua Redman NEEDS to hear In London by Dewey Redman. I love a tone of other Redman too, but that one is close to the style his son aims for and shreds it in every way.

[straight-up-and-down]

It's true that it depends foremostly on personal opinions and feelings whether one calls a musician "overrated" (or "overexposed" as well). It's true that possibly neither of us knows the entire output of any of the aformentioned musicians. And though I always say that someone who really loves jazz can make a statement about a musician even if he's heard only a small part of what he's played during his career, it may lead to discussions ending in: "you should give him another try" and "sorry, but that's just my opinion". Most of the things we say are based on our own opinions, backed by what we've heard or read, and even when a jazz specialist or another musician would tell me, for instance, that Joshua Redman is one of the top tenors in jazz history, better than Trane or whatever, I would still approach him cautiously and carefully look for the bad moves.
I'm often dissatisfied with the way some musicians are treated by fans of any sort. With the fact that it's often someone less improved who gets to the listener, while the real king of the same instrument has no chance to even record his sound, for he is known only by a few. And maybe we can't do anything about it, maybe it's completely useless. I hope not. I hope that some day I'll walk into a music shop and hear Woody Shaw instead of Chris Botti (even though I've heard he's a good musician; it's the same with Pat Metheny - I just don't feel like giving them a chance, 'cause I identified their style with a kind of music that I don't find interesting), Dewey instead of Joshua; I think discussing whether one musician is overrated or underrated is worth the hassle, mainly because our opinions differ as much and someone who reads all this would maybe think: "Yeah, well, maybe I should try this old Redman guy, maybe he isn't so bad in the end?".
Sorry, I sometimes drift off a bit. I'm getting too old for this shit ;)

[Saxman]

It's true that it depends foremostly on personal opinions and feelings whether one calls a musician "overrated" (or "overexposed" as well). It's true that possibly neither of us knows the entire output of any of the aformentioned musicians. And though I always say that someone who really loves jazz can make a statement about a musician even if he's heard only a small part of what he's played during his career, it may lead to discussions ending in: "you should give him another try" and "sorry, but that's just my opinion". Most of the things we say are based on our own opinions, backed by what we've heard or read, and even when a jazz specialist or another musician would tell me, for instance, that Joshua Redman is one of the top tenors in jazz history, better than Trane or whatever, I would still approach him cautiously and carefully look for the bad moves.
I'm often dissatisfied with the way some musicians are treated by fans of any sort. With the fact that it's often someone less improved who gets to the listener, while the real king of the same instrument has no chance to even record his sound, for he is known only by a few. And maybe we can't do anything about it, maybe it's completely useless. I hope not. I hope that some day I'll walk into a music shop and hear Woody Shaw instead of Chris Botti (even though I've heard he's a good musician; it's the same with Pat Metheny - I just don't feel like giving them a chance, 'cause I identified their style with a kind of music that I don't find interesting), Dewey instead of Joshua; I think discussing whether one musician is overrated or underrated is worth the hassle, mainly because our opinions differ as much and someone who reads all this would maybe think: "Yeah, well, maybe I should try this old Redman guy, maybe he isn't so bad in the end?".
Sorry, I sometimes drift off a bit. I'm getting too old for this shit ;)

I hear ya. Now I'll stir the pot, since I'm still fighting the flu, which is charging like a pack of racehorses behind me.

There was a review of the Hank Mobley "Workout" reissue today that I totally agree with: he wasn't a major player compared to Trane, Sonny, etc. For years I rallied around this cat because so many dissed him, even picking up his Mosaic box, not a cheap purchase. But ya know what? He doesn't send off any fireworks for me. Ordinary at best. Is he overrated? No, he's rated where he should be, as "OK."

After listening to him, I flipped on the Coltrane Atlantic box and jeez, that's part of the Holy Grail in comparison. But that's my taste, or lack of. There are players/fans/friends of mine who hate Trane post-Prestige! It's all good: enjoy what you enjoy and peace to all. It's OK to disagree.

[misstraceynolan]

It's all good: enjoy what you enjoy and peace to all. It's OK to disagree.

For sure - but I also like to hear people's opinions on stuff. I like to disagree. Becuase, sometimes it *does* open me up a listener.

[Saxman]

For sure - but I also like to hear people's opinions on stuff. I like to disagree. Becuase, sometimes it *does* open me up a listener.

I agree 100%! I was brought around to Impulse! Trane (Classic Quartet & VV boxes) and Ornette through this process.

[aristotle]

I vote for Anthony Braxton and Cecil Taylor.



The two greatest living figures in the music:Cecil is definately in the pantheon(alongside Parker, Ellington etc.);the consistency of his recorded output is stunning, hes a sublime pianist(Tree Of Life, Willisau Concert, Erzulie Maketh Scent etc etc). Braxton is almost as good, imo, and though not quite as consistently brilliant, hes made some stunning music(For Alto[delmark],Willisau(Quartet)[hat art]etc etc). Both broke new ground in the music,and are key figures in its history, alongside Coltrane, Monk, Armstrong etc.

Over-rated:Miles Davis;keith jarrett;john mcclaughlin;archie shepp.

(by over-rated i do not mean useless)

[thedwork]

over-rated?

Oprah.

[codewarrior]

Hmm... So if we add everyone's posts together, basically every major figure in jazz other than Coltrane is overrated. I mean, come on, Keith Jarrett? Really? You must be one heck of a player to look down on such a prodigious and prolific musician. I suppose Chick Corea and Tony Williams are next :D

[burning dog]

Hmm... So if we add everyone's posts together, basically every major figure in jazz other than Coltrane is overrated. I mean, come on, Keith Jarrett? Really? You must be one heck of a player to look down on such a prodigious and prolific musician. I suppose Chick Corea and Tony Williams are next :D


I think SOME people overrate Jarrett and Corea. It's not a question of looking down on anyone. If somebody says to me Jarrett is the most innovative jazz pianist ever (MORE than say Hines or Monk or Bill Evans) I'd say they are overrating him. However, unless there is a league table somewhere, we can't say whether X or Y is overrated in general.

[aristotle]

Hmm... So if we add everyone's posts together, basically every major figure in jazz other than Coltrane is overrated. I mean, come on, Keith Jarrett? Really? You must be one heck of a player to look down on such a prodigious and prolific musician. I suppose Chick Corea and Tony Williams are next :D
I recognise Jarrett's ability, its just that i think its over-played by lots of people;i have a lot of admiration for him, and for some of his music:for example Radiance had some excellent moments(and some not so good). Imo, great is an overused word. Fine/brilliant/excellent/compelling etc are often thought equivalent to damning with aint praise.

[straight-up-and-down]

One way to find an overrated jazz musician is to find out if his fans hold any interest in OTHER jazz musicians at all. I know some people who say they "love" Jarrett (quotation, 'cause he's not so young and the people who told me so were mainly heterosexual male specimens :)), but have never even tried to listen to other jazz musicians. Hell, some of them didn't even try most of the Jarrett albums available (don't know the reason for that :|, think it's because they prefer Jarrett's solo piano work and not his bands, especially the older ones - with a sax up front). I think the same goes to Wynton, AND Miles. Yes, I think Miles is overrated, for he was no virtuoso and his recognition exceeds that of ANY other trumpet player in jazz history, including even Wynton himself (:)), not to mention Hub, Lee, Clifford or Dizzy (though I think he is known to a nice number of listeners). I don't think anyone who owns ANY copy of, for instance, Joe Henderson didn't try anything else at any time. That's why he isn't overrated, see? :)

[Kid Charlemagne]

Yes, I think Miles is overrated, for he was no virtuoso and his recognition exceeds that of ANY other trumpet player in jazz history, including even Wynton himself (:)),

Um, Satchmo?

[Saxman]

over-rated?

Oprah.

Gee, I haven't heard any of her albums, so I can't agree or disagree. :elephant:

[straight-up-and-down]

Um, Satchmo?

I thought people loved him for his singing more than for his trumpet playing, didn't they?

[Kid Charlemagne]

I thought people loved him for his singing more than for his trumpet playing, didn't they?

Maybe the casual fan. But most stuff I've read or heard gives him his due as a trailblazing trumpeter.

[codewarrior]

One way to find an overrated jazz musician is to find out if his fans hold any interest in OTHER jazz musicians at all.

This doesn't make sense. Not listening to more people doesn't make somebody overrated, it just makes the audience narrow. If a bunch of people really like coltrane and don't check out a bunch of other sax players (and I know plenty of pretty hardcore trane devotees) it doesn't make Coltrane suddenly overrated. It just makes them dense.

When you talk about somebody on the level of Keith Jarrett, it's really hard to *over* rate them. Someone of that level of genius only comes along every few decades. I mean, he's a killen saxophone player, as well as percussionist, organist, and an amazing classical musician as well as an unbelievable jazz musician. He was both playing *and* composing some very serious classical-style music at about 8 years old. And he's recorded so much great music in enough different styles to make an acrobat dizzy. I mean come on, the guy can sit down for 2 hours and just improvise a masterpiece recording. That's pretty scary.

Do I like everything he's put out or recorded? Heck no. Is he my favorite pianist to listen to? Nope. But despite my own personal preferences, it's easy to see that he is on just about the highest level of skill. So when so many people are calling him amazing, I don't think it's overrated at all. It's just the truth.

[straight-up-and-down]

Kid: that's you, I meant the CASUAL LISTENER, that ok with you?
Eh, people, thought what I wrote was quite simple...
codewarrior: I'm not talking about people who can read music or talk music technically. It sure is a narrow audience. I'm talking about the majority of people. I don't think they approach Jarrett after lending an ear to Evans, Tatum, Monk or any other jazz pianist of such significance. You see, that's what I meant with this approach of "only one album per artist" or "per style", like people who bought "The Koln Concert" and that's the sole jazz album on their shelf. That's what I'm after. Not people who get crazy about every sound Coltrane made.
Besides, this was partially a joke on my behalf. Only it sometimes appears to be true too :)

[codewarrior]

Right, but that's what I'm saying... If everybody *only* had a coltrane album, that doesn't make coltrane suddenly overrated. Being overrated doesn't meant that people don't listen to other players. It means that they have beliefs about the player that are overblown or unfounded. Narrow listening is entirely different thing. You can listen to 15 bass players and have an overrated opinion of only 1, or listen to just 1 but not have an overrated opinion of him. So the number of people on a certain intrument that you or anyone else listens to doesn't make any difference in this particular case.

Being overrated isn't about whether people listen to other musicians or not, it's about whether the general public opinion of you is higher than what your true skill level and musicality merit.

[straight-up-and-down]

It's true and you're right, I just had the feeling that there's an enormous number of people who listen to only one artist or even only one album labelled "jazz" and their choices, in my opinion, look similar to the list of names that appeared here (apart from the more free players).
But, as I said, I wasn't deadly serious, though I still think it's sometimes true - SOMETIMES ;)

[James]

I do agree that Bobby Watson and T-Staff are underrated. If anyone doesn't own Horizon's Reassembled, Live and Learn, and Midwest Shuffle...


.............or Present Tense...............

Sorry for the diversion. Having nothing to add to the current conversation, I simply had to plug my favorite Watson recording. :D

[It's a sleepless night, and I'm a bit dazed.]

[J_Deighton]

If enough people think that the only jazz out there that is interesting is a copy of Kind of Blue, A Love Supreme, the Koln Concert (or Dewey Redman in London for that matter,) is the only jazz album worth their energy, and that there is no point in checking out other jazz then that seems to be the very definition of an overblown and unfounded opinion and thus Coltrane, Miles, Jarrett (and Dewey) would be over-rated.
But this is just a jazz message board. When someone says that Chris Potter, or Rahsaan Roland Kirk are over-rated it says way more about the poster than the musician. It doesn't make the poster right or wrong, and I for one get a kick out of people's reasoning, (especially when I don't agree.)

[burning dog]

If enough people think that the only jazz out there that is interesting is a copy of Kind of Blue, A Love Supreme, the Koln Concert (or Dewey Redman in London for that matter,) is the only jazz album worth their energy, and that there is no point in checking out other jazz then that seems to be the very definition of an overblown and unfounded opinion and thus Coltrane, Miles, Jarrett (and Dewey) would be over-rated.
But this is just a jazz message board. When someone says that Chris Potter, or Rahsaan Roland Kirk are over-rated it says way more about the poster than the musician. It doesn't make the poster right or wrong, and I for one get a kick out of people's reasoning, (especially when I don't agree.)

Agree on all points! I'ts interesting when people say X or Y doesn't connect with me because...

[straight-up-and-down]

Yes-and-not exactly.
I agree with the first part, as for the second, I've got my doubts. When I say Davis is overrated, it don't mean too much. When I say the same of Jarrett, that's a step further.

[duaneiac]

To put this "over rated" business is perspective, if you took a sample poll of a representative group of Americans, I'd be very surprised if over 10% of them had any idea who Keith Jarrett even is. Keep in mind that even at this point in time, most Americans could not find Iraq on a blank map of the world.

It's silly to argue that any jazz musician is over rated. The most famous jazz musician you can name today will never get the amount of attention from the American public that say Madonna or Diddy or even Britney Spears will get.

Music is what it is. Either a musician's work will speak to you, move you, or it won't. I'm brave enough to say Coltane doesn't do much for me. I'm glad he has captivated and inspired other listeners and musicians. I would never claim he is over rated. Obviously, his work appeals to some and that's a good thing. It's a big musical world and there is plenty of room for every one to have their favorites.

[Kid Charlemagne]

Music is what it is. Either a musician's work will speak to you, move you, or it won't. I'm brave enough to say Coltane doesn't do much for me. I'm glad he has captivated and inspired other listeners and musicians. I would never claim he is over rated. Obviously, his work appeals to some and that's a good thing. It's a big musical world and there is plenty of room for every one to have their favorites.

Absolutely. I think some people (not necessarily the ones in this thread) throw the term "overrated" out there to justify the fact that they either don't like or don't understand a particular artist. No one who likes music wants to feel like they are "missing out" on something, so if some people don't like an artist or a trend, they just choose to dismiss it with terms like "overrated" or "without merit." I feel the same way about Coltrane as you do duaneiac. I've really tried to get into his stuff and I just can't do it. But I would never say he was overrated.

[pRogers]

To put this "over rated" business is perspective, if you took a sample poll of a representative group of Americans, I'd be very surprised if over 10% of them had any idea who Keith Jarrett even is. Keep in mind that even at this point in time, most Americans could not find Iraq on a blank map of the world.

I think 10% is way overstating it. I would guess it would be about .3 to .5 percent.

[misstraceynolan]

I think 10% is way overstating it. I would guess it would be about .3 to .5 percent.

Math is tough.

[burning dog]

Math is tough.

It all comes back to your point about over-exposure. Only a couple of people are known to a wider public and could possibly be over-rated (not saying they are) . The others are just opinions, whether informed or otherwise.

[J_Deighton]

Heh! I assumed that when a thread like "Who Do You Think Is Over-Rated" comes up on a frickin' jazz message board we are not talking about the global population here. The jazz community tends to lionize some and either ignore or disparage others- as such there is a jazz consensus, and I guess I thought that is what we are talking about here. Jazz musicians will never be as famous as Britney Spears, but then again many pop commodities these days become famous as celebrities, not as musicians. They are different beasts. The comparison just doesn't hold. So while .000000000000000000000097% of the population knows who Chris Potter is. Of the people in the know I feel that his reputation is greater than it should be. I think I'm still saying something when I say so. (I also think it says something about me more than Potter.)
And I'm not just talking taste here. I said Wynton is not over-rated, using the same methodology, and I can't stand him.

[burning dog]

Heh! I assumed that when a thread like "Who Do You Think Is Over-Rated" comes up on a frickin' jazz message board we are not talking about the global population here. The jazz community tends to lionize some and either ignore or disparage others- as such there is a jazz consensus, .

Of course you are right, we can get a general idea, within the jazz community, of who is rated and who isn't.
However I don't think there is much of a jazz consensus, especially with post bop players, some extremely knowledgable fans think Ornette is a bit of charlatan. You will always find plenty to disparage Miles or claim a lot of Coltrane is boring.

Maybe someone mainstream, in the tradition, like Ellington are respected by even those who don't care for their music.

Jarrett is a good case, loads think he is prolix, pretentious, and not jazzy, how ever much others lionize him. None would question his technique. As for Chris Potter, there many casual jazz fans (leaving aside the general population) who are barely aware of him.

[straight-up-and-down]

You reminded me of something funny.
In Poland, there once was a book called "The History of Jazz", written by a guy whose profile seemed quite impressive. The book was a short introduction to the history of jazz (it's 200 pages long, and the timespan is 50 years), but it's still one of only few books dealing with it written in Polish.
There's a paragraph dedicated to Jarrett himself. The writer claims that even though his early records (with the Lloyd group and by himself with his quartet) are quite impressive, the majority of his work reflects his own personality, as the author called it - "narcistic". He said the way Jarrett plays, humming and squeaking from time to time, was pretentious (yes, exactly) and built a statement which I'll try to translate for your own joy (it's quite funny):
"His highly egocentric nature made it impossible for him to create his own style as a synthesis of the other styles. Jarrett, lost between Schumann, Ravel, Evans and rhythm-and-blues, is always in the middle of a self-love hymn. (...) The artist, blinded by the love of himself, turns ridiculous, when his music fades out, pushed off the scene by his mimic and gestures."
Now how do you like that for a constructive critic? :)
I've always found it quite hard to imagine someone being egocentric and at the same time unable to be himself :D

[burning dog]

I think many performers are narcissistic, it may make them a pain to know, so what?

His music reflects his own personality. Imagine that:D

I don't like all Jarretts solo work, he can overplay at times,( but that's personal taste) but all of his trio albums have a lot to commend them . Most are excellent.

BUT ...He IS one of the leading jazz players of the last 30 years IMO.



Complaints about his music being a synthesis of Rhythm and Blues and Classical music are a bit silly, not surprising for a JAZZ musician is it?!!!!:D


The writer could say Jarrett doesn't appeal to him, or say he represents a trend in Jazz he doesn't care for, that would be fair enough... but a short history of jazz is not the place to disparage such a major figure.

[codewarrior]

Right. A few points:

1) As has been mentioned this thread is obviously talking about opinions with in the *jazz* community. So it doesn't matter how many people outside of jazz don't know a particular artist.

2) Having an overblown ego doesn't make you overrated. We're talking about opinions of people's playing, not whether or not the artist is a jerk.

3) The miles davis analogy still doesn't work, becuase sometimes people only listen to what they have been exposed to. This isn't the same as overrating. It's just limited exposure. Now, if they listened to Eric Alexander and said it was the best jazz saxophone you could buy, that is overrating. But if you only listen to Kind of Blue, and you think it's an amazingly good album, that's not overrating. I think it's just true, but you need to broaden your scope.

4) Being overrated is a general thing. So just because you have a few hardcore fans that think you're the best thing since Mozart (and nearly *everybody* that is well-known seems to have some fans like this) doesn't mean you're generally overrated as an artist. I think some of the people that have been mentioned aren't overrated by the general jazz audience at all, just by a smaller more vocal fanatical/obsessed fan club.

5) I agree with the statement about people throwing "overrated" around because they don't like a particular artist's style. Obviously there are a lot of people that are up for debate, but some of the people that have been mentioned are artists of such a high caliber that it's amazing that anyone could call them overrated. Or at least anyone that really plays jazz on an instrument and understands the difficulty involved in reaching their level of musicality and skill.

[burning dog]

[QUOTE=codewarrior]

1) As has been mentioned this thread is obviously talking about opinions with in the *jazz* community. So it doesn't matter how many people outside of jazz don't know a particular artist.

>>> Outside of jazz no, but many inside of jazz, including players, do not keep up to date with newer musicans. This would lead to players tending to be underrated rather than overrated. For example, I read somewhere that Charlie Haden was not very familiar with William Parker's music


2) Having an overblown ego doesn't make you overrated. We're talking about opinions of people's playing, not whether or not the artist is a jerk.



>>>>Agreed!

3) The miles davis analogy still doesn't work, becuase sometimes people only listen to what they have been exposed to. This isn't the same as overrating. It's just limited exposure. Now, if they listened to Eric Alexander and said it was the best jazz saxophone you could buy, that is overrating. But if you only listen to Kind of Blue, and you think it's an amazingly good album, that's not overrating. I think it's just true, but you need to broaden your scope.

>>> Fair enough, the listener is under-exposed to jazz

4) Being overrated is a general thing. So just because you have a few hardcore fans that think you're the best thing since Mozart (and nearly *everybody* that is well-known seems to have some fans like this) doesn't mean you're generally overrated as an artist. I think some of the people that have been mentioned aren't overrated by the general jazz audience at all, just by a smaller more vocal fanatical/obsessed fan club.

>>>>Agree again!

5) I agree with the statement about people throwing "overrated" around because they don't like a particular artist's style. Obviously there are a lot of people that are up for debate, but some of the people that have been mentioned are artists of such a high caliber that it's amazing that anyone could call them overrated. Or at least anyone that really plays jazz on an instrument and understands the difficulty involved in reaching their level of musicality and skill.


>>>>Agreed. No-one should under rate any top jazz musicians technique. I suppose they can criticize lack of soul, or something, but this is not a very objective thing, as you said earlier it would probably be said in response to a member of the "obsessed" fan club.

[straight-up-and-down]

It's impossible not to agree with you guys :)
(am I overrating your opinions? :D)
It fascinates me how critics try to put down good musicians on the strenght of their playing while the real reason is they simply don't like the way they play. Eric Dolphy is a good example of a musician who has been much underrated in his times; I remember reading an article where it was said that some of the jazz specialists tried to criticize his music and the way he approached soloing and they put their opinions in a much theoreticized discourse, while the truth was he just played everything different, and they couldn't keep up with him. On the other hand, Sonny Stitt was reported to say that he just simply thought Dolphy's music isn't pleasant to his ears. A much simpler way to say you just don't like someone.
It's a shame people do things like these. But from such statements we may learn of the people who become underrated. And I think it's generally easier to find them than the overrated ones. With overrating it's hard to establish the basic point of view - you usually don't know exactly who overrates a musician, that's why I say "people". And that's why our opinions are mainly points in a discussion and not undisputable statements.
But is that really bad?
I do like Jarrett, and I do love his quartet and earlier works, but of the ECM albums, I think some of them are not AS interesting as the earlier ones. And I think most people know exactly those albums and worship Jarrett for the things he made which I find less interesting. And I don't feel too good about it. But I don't really think he's overrated. I'm just disappointed with his fans.

[BrettC]

I told myself I wasn't going to respond to this, but I'm in a strange mood, so....

Wynton
Dave Douglas
Joe Lovano
Chris Potter
McCoy Tyner
Eric Alexander
Branford Marsalis (his tenor playing at least.)
Josh Redman
Mark Turner
Jeff Tain Watts (i know- probably the most controv. choice, but he clutters the place up too much, sometimes critically lacks taste IMO.)

UNDER-RATED (just to keep things in perspective.....)

Bobby Hutcherson
Bobby Watson
Dewey Redman
Stephen Scott
Terell Stafford
Don Braden
Bill Stewart
James Hurt
Von Freeman
David Sanchez
Abraham Burton
Billy Drummond
Ralph Lalama
Wallace Roney
Mary Stallings
Julian Joseph
Jack Walrath


Joshua redman and branford marsalis are definitely not overrated. Especially Joshua redman's elastic band recordings, its groovy stuff.

[jazzofonik]

I second you Brett C.

[Jimmy James]

i would also go as far as saying mark turner is underrated

[duaneiac]

How about some one who is both overrated and underrated: Harry Connick, Jr. I'd say he may be over rated by the general public (sure he's a good singer and I do like some of his recordings although some others do nothing for me, but he is not the greatest jazz singer on the scene as the general public may believe), but he is also underrated as a pianist by the hardcore community of jazz fans (okay, he may not be one of the top ten pianists around today, but he is better than many folks might realize).

[Yelfnishk]

i think Harry is an interesting case. What does the jazz community think of him in general? I've found his piano playing a bit clunky and jumpy, and his voice isn't technically great, but i do like some of his stuff where he is singing and playing, i guess the package is greater than the some of its parts in this case. I haven't really heard him playing in a jazz context as a pianist though.

[misstraceynolan]

I haven't really heard him playing in a jazz context as a pianist though.

You should, he's great.

[jkelman]

Actually, I tend to think that artists who personally feel that they're under-rated are often the most over-rated of all (well, at least in their own minds).:laugh: :clown: :smokin: :wink2:

[senorblues]

Kieth Jarret
Wynton Marsailis- his shocking tone
John Scofield

[dnuos]

Boy, the guy who put U2 was right on the money, I can't stand their obnoxious 3 chord wonder music! How about every other performer in the Pop top 10, including that ghastly michael jackson and that godawful madonna, somebody please get rid of those two, i'm sick of the sight of them and their crappy music! hey at least in the sixties we had the beatles, talented songwriters, some originality, you know they were cool for pop artists. you had some nice black rhythm and blues, some cool motown songs, a little jimi hendrix, janis joplin,whose voice wasn't great, but she had some soul at least, the doors, with light my fire,based on tranes "my favorite things", the rolling stones "not fade away" and "can't you hear me knockin", the mindblowing music of the great john coltrane himself! now what do we get ? pricky martin "livin la vida jerky", n'stink, britney smears,oops,i wet my pants again....as far as jazz goes we just don't hear it on the air, do we? i for one, am disgusted! have a day, folks!:mad: there are a hell of a lot of airheads roaming the streets out there if this is what is popular. all i can say is : Let The Cloning Begin!:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :eek:

How dare you call Michael Jackson unoriginal songwriter?

[dnuos]

I don't know much about you, but I feel that Ben Monder deserves ALOT more recognizion than he gets.

[jazzofonik]

How dare you call Michael Jackson unoriginal songwriter?
Despite his well-documented issues, Jackson has made some pretty interesting pop - "Stranger in Moscow" "Smooth Criminal" and "Scream" (the duet with sister Janet) just three that come to mind - that is, aside from the big hits like "Billie Jean" and "Black or White"

[clave]

As now, there were a ton of bad songwriters and bad records getting airplay and sales back in the 60s and 70s.

Isn't that always the case when dealing with "commercial" product? We tend to look back on various decades/eras and focus on the best material, which is maybe what? 2 percent of all the stuff that was out there? (I'm just guessing here, but the point is that most pop music is forgettable.)

[Dennis_M]

As now, there were a ton of bad songwriters and bad records getting airplay and sales back in the 60s and 70s.

Isn't that always the case when dealing with "commercial" product? We tend to look back on various decades/eras and focus on the best material, which is maybe what? 2 percent of all the stuff that was out there? (I'm just guessing here, but the point is that most pop music is forgettable.)

I think that's right for popular music. The public rates the top 2 percent, and at that level there is some very good, even great music to be had. It's different with jazz. None of us could even agree on what the top 2 percent is, because there is so much more great stuff out there.

[jkelman]

I don't know much about you, but I feel that Ben Monder deserves ALOT more recognizion than he gets.
I'd agree with that.

[senorblues]

I think the proper term may be over exposed (if such a thing is possible in jazz), as opposed to over rated. Diana Krall, Harry Connick, Wynton, Scofield and Metheny may have been over expossed or played in a non jazz setting. This may have taken attention away from more talented jazz musicians and caused resentments among hard core jazz people which is understandable. It doesn't mean they are not really good players, it just means they may have crossed over and gotten more exposure or somehow reached more people than a typical jazz artist. I can see both sides. I really dig Diana Krall's more comercial recordings and Eliane Elias's Bossa recording that got a lot of attention and am glad they got more exposure. On the other hand I sometimes get resentfull at others like Wynton or Metheny who I don't like much for garnering so much attention and deflecting attention away from artists who I feel are more deserving, such as Arturo Sandoval or Pat Martino. I guess it depends how you look at it.

[duaneiac]

Other than Andy Bey, there are no 'excellent' male jazz singers.


I respectfully disagree. Just among living male jazz singers today we have Kurt Elling, Ernie Andrews, Kevin Mahogany, Ian Shaw, Giacommo Gates, Bob Dorough, Jon Hendricks -- each of whom is great in their own way!

[Fender Rhodes Freak]

I can't think of anyone whose overrated at the moment, but I will say that George Coleman is vastly underrated.

[misstraceynolan]

I have to say I don't really get Kevin Mahogany - I've tried, but I just don't see what the big deal is. I find him uninspired.

[senorblues]

Mark Murphy's still around and I think he sings very well and is not over rated or overexposed.

[jkelman]

I

Jaco Pastorious never reached his potential, or tried to.

Don't forget that Jaco's illness had a lot to do with his never reaching full potential. His substance abusing was a form of self-medication for the illness, and it would have been interesting to see what he'd have done had he been properly treated.

[clave]

I have to say I don't really get Kevin Mahogany - I've tried, but I just don't see what the big deal is. I find him uninspired.

I'm not crazy about the recordings I've heard (just cuts from this and that, really), but my mom has seen him live and really enjoyed the gig. I liked him in Altman's "Kansas City."

As for Jaco, self-medicating and not reaching his full potential: Amen to that, John.

[straight-up-and-down]

Jaco Pastorious never reached his potential, or tried to.

It's a bit odd to put someone down for "not reaching his potential" while his records are worshipped by zounds of bassists and fans alike.
He may have played below his skills for most of the time, but does it mean his records are dull? There are cuts in his discography which are certainly fantastic, and don't tell me his solos on "Havona" or the live version of "Teen Town" don't show his potential at length.
BTW, since you're able to judge his potential from his records, there's a reason to that - you must have learned it from some record or a live performance, eh? That means you've heard him reaching his potential, doesn't it?
Otherwise it's possible he didn't have any and it's only group hallucination...

[jkelman]

It's a bit odd to put someone down for "not reaching his potential" while his records are worshipped by zounds of bassists and fans alike.
He may have played below his skills for most of the time, but does it mean his records are dull? There are cuts in his discography which are certainly fantastic, and don't tell me his solos on "Havona" or the live version of "Teen Town" don't show his potential at length.
BTW, since you're able to judge his potential from his records, there's a reason to that - you must have learned it from some record or a live performance, eh? That means you've heard him reaching his potential, doesn't it?
Otherwise it's possible he didn't have any and it's only group hallucination...
Just to be clear - I wasn't putting Jaco down. He accomplished an incredible amount in an all-too-short life. I was simply responding to someone who felt Jaco was over-rated, which is not the way I feel. He reinvented the instrument, was a composer who is still covered today--his reach is still felt, 20 years after his untimely death.

Yes there were times where he was plainly awful, but he released enough transcendent moments in his short life to allow one to disregard those missteps - missteps that were, for the most part, part and parcel of the illness he suffered.

My only point was that, were his illness treated with any degree of success and the tragic ending hadn't happened, just imagine where he might be today!

Best,
John

[Steve Reynolds]

he suffered from the disease of addiction

maybe someone else is referencing other mental illness(s) that he might have had, but drug addiction is also an illness, and it must also be treated - but it is up to the addict to treat it on a daily basis through abstinance.

many people treat it with a one day at a time approach through associating with others who have the same illness - any other questions, anyone can PM me.


maybe among other illnesses, but this was the incurable one - and the one that killed him, I think

[jazzofonik]

It's a bit odd to put someone down for "not reaching his potential" while his records are worshipped by zounds of bassists and fans alike.
He may have played below his skills for most of the time, but does it mean his records are dull? There are cuts in his discography which are certainly fantastic, and don't tell me his solos on "Havona" or the live version of "Teen Town" don't show his potential at length.
BTW, since you're able to judge his potential from his records, there's a reason to that - you must have learned it from some record or a live performance, eh? That means you've heard him reaching his potential, doesn't it?
Otherwise it's possible he didn't have any and it's only group hallucination...

Couldn't agree more. Even hearing the songs "secondhand" through the Word of Mouth tribute band shows that Jaco was a player -and composer - of tremendous import.

[Fran]

Buddy Bolden - If he was really THAT good why can't you find any of his records?

[jazzofonik]

that's not to say they'll never be found....

[patricia]

Buddy Bolden - If he was really THAT good why can't you find any of his records?


From what I understand, Bolden is more the stuff of legend and, if that legend is correct, recorded one cylinder and even that is impossible to prove, since nobody has ever heard it. He played his cornet in New Orleans playing with Charlie Galloway's band in what became known as the Ragtime Era. Bolden led the band after a time and it was a purported recording, in 1897 on a cylinder, which is we're not sure where, that was the only record of his having played. As the years passed and jazz evolved, he is seen more as a touchstone than anything else.
Although everybody, including Wynton Marsaillas in Ken Burns' JAZZ, speaks of Buddy Bolden with reverance, he has assumed the stature of myth. So, we have only the word of the musicians of the time being quoted and some old photographs to speak to just what his cornet sounded like and exactly how good he was.

[Fran]

Patricia ----- It was only a joke

[patricia]

Patricia ----- It was only a joke


I know Fran, but it was an opportunity to mention Bolden, since there are no recordings, unless you count that fabled cylinder.:D

[jazz_man]

I'm flabbergasted about the Jaco remarks....

He suffered from a mental illness as well as an illness of drug and alcohol addiction. To say he never reached his full potential and was over-rated because of his drug and alcohol problems - well you could easily say same thing about Bird or Bud Powell. Not many call them over-rated or under-achieving.

Honestly, I believe it would be difficult to over-rate Jaco and has influence, and in my opinion he was the last great jazz innovator we've seen. If you sat down and actually listened to the body of compositions alone that he has left, I don't know how you couldn't be astonished. Further, he single-handedly revolutionized electric bass playing.:rant2:

Aw...I shouldn't have read this thread....There are other remarks that are also upsetting to me....

[straight-up-and-down]

I was unaware the Jaco had an illness, what was it?



Who said his records are dull?
I think he had the ability to produce much better work then he did in his career. Had he continued to produce music rather than choosing to 'self medicate' he may have become one of the most widely praised musicians from his era. I'm confused by your response as your second sentence seems to agree with me: "He may have played below his skills for most of the time..."

Good player, yes. Great player, maybe. Overrated player: Yes.

If he had played up to his skill level (your words) then I would be one of those who "worshipped by zounds of bassists and fans alike".

Adam,
I don't agree with you. I'm just trying to show you why what you said seems wrong to me. I agree we'd be better off if Jaco wasn't ill at all or simply tried to use some more "civilized" methods of treatment. But I won't agree he never tried to reach his potential. And I still believe he has shown this potential on some of those Weather Report tracks, not only as a composer, but as an improvising artist as well. Do consider his playing on "Havona"; in my opinion, this is the greatest evidence of his musical talents and I seriously doubt anyone, even Jaco himself, could cut a better solo for this release. Listen to his backup playing on "Teen Town" live - it's imaginative, brilliant, dynamic ---> ingenious? The fact that he didn't play like that ALL the time is no evidence to his not trying to; in fact, it's evidence that he DID play at a level "appropriate" for him.
And that's what I meant to say.
And one more thing: can you give me any reasons for him being overrated other than fellow musicians stating that his talent was the greatest? It's similar to what you've said yourself...

PS. John, don't worry, I was referring to the one who spoke first :)
PPS. About his illness, I heard it was a mental one. Not caused by drugs and not drugs themselves.
PPPS. Frankly, I'm a bit worn out today, blame any and all of my mistakes on that, will ya? :)
PPPPS. Yeah, and the fact that jazz_man already said most of the things I wanted to say should also be blamed on my state of mind :/...

[jkelman]

he suffered from the disease of addiction

maybe someone else is referencing other mental illness(s) that he might have had, but drug addiction is also an illness, and it must also be treated - but it is up to the addict to treat it on a daily basis through abstinance.

many people treat it with a one day at a time approach through associating with others who have the same illness - any other questions, anyone can PM me.


maybe among other illnesses, but this was the incurable one - and the one that killed him, I think
My understanding is that Jaco was a bipolar (or, as they used to call it manic depressive). And while you are correct about the addition Steve, it actually is a bit of chicken and egg thing with bipolars (trust me, knowing one close by I'm all too familiar). When I talk about self-medication that's what I'm talking about - the person I know, who is thankfully quite well-controlled now with a proper medication regimen, tells me that in the days before being diagnosed, she really was trying, subconsciously, to sedate the highs. Ultimately addiction was part of it, but getting properly diagnosed and finding the right regimen (and the problem with this and all mooid affective disorders, is that it ain't one size fits all - sometimes one has to search for years for just the right combination for oneself) made it possible to kick the habits.

So I think Jaco's situation, like anyone with bipolar illness, is rather complicated. But I have no doubt that were he properly treated it may well have been possible to avoid what was almost an inevitable outcome.

And, Steve - and I seem to recall having this diiscussion before with you, no? - I agree completely that addiction is, indeed, an illness. In fact, the addictive personality may well kick drugs, say, but substitute something else that appears benign but is, in its excess, still an addiction. Add to the mix a mood affective disorder (can be bipolar, but also things like clinical depression, generalized anxiety disorder, etc) and the whole thing becomes considerably murkier.

And, in the case of someone who has addictions *and* a mood affective disorder, kicking the addiction becomes more problematic because the mood disorder drives the need to medicate on top of the addictive illness.

What a mess. But there are people who have successfully beat one, the other or both in combination, which makes Jaco's tragedy even more profound.
John

[jkelman]

I'm flabbergasted about the Jaco remarks....


Aw...I shouldn't have read this thread....There are other remarks that are also upsetting to me....
Hopefully you realize when you have read this, that there was actually only one person saying Jaco was over-rated. Just to be clear, my opinion is that, as you say, he was a revolutionary, not just on his instrument, but as a composer, bandleader and more.

The only thing that I find tragic is considering what might have been had he not suffered from the two illnesses (bipolar disorder and substance addiction). Not to discount anything he did, but you've gotta wonder what he'd have done had he not been saddled with these things.

Then again, there is a case for bipolar correlating to artistic creativity. A bipolar who has actually written the clinical textbook on Bipolar Disorder, Kate Redfield Jamison, also wrote a book called Touched With Fire that speaks to that very point.

So there's also the argument that had Jaco NOT been afflicted, the creative juices may not have been so strong.

Now that's an interesting topic for discussion, especially for anyone who's read the book, which is pretty fascinating.
John

[bvy]

From what I understand, Bolden is more the stuff of legend and, if that legend is correct, recorded one cylinder and even that is impossible to prove, since nobody has ever heard it. He played his cornet in New Orleans playing with Charlie Galloway's band in what became known as the Ragtime Era. Bolden led the band after a time and it was a purported recording, in 1897 on a cylinder, which is we're not sure where, that was the only record of his having played. As the years passed and jazz evolved, he is seen more as a touchstone than anything else.
Although everybody, including Wynton Marsaillas in Ken Burns' JAZZ, speaks of Buddy Bolden with reverance, he has assumed the stature of myth. So, we have only the word of the musicians of the time being quoted and some old photographs to speak to just what his cornet sounded like and exactly how good he was.

A cylinder probably was recorded, but the question isn't so much "where is it" but "what is it." What I'm saying is that presumably it was a wax cylinder, and if it were to be found, it will probably have deteriorated to the point of being unlistenable -- if even recognizable.

Don Marquis' In Search of Buddy Bolden is a great read. Bolden's life was shrouded in mystery and myth, and Marquis' exhaustive research is more or less the last word on the Bolden story.

[codewarrior]

Whoa. Jaco? Overrated? So basically if you add up everything everybody's said so far, all the best musicians in jazz from the last 30-40 years are overrated. I'm sure someone's going to add Herbie Hancock next. Do you guys actually play instruments? :D Goodness!

[Steve Reynolds]

I know many recovering addicts who also suffer from bi-polar or mental disorders


simply treating the mental disorder with medication does little or nothing to help the addict treat his or her drug addiction.

It is also true that most people who suffer from bi-polar (like my wife) disorders (or manic-depression - if you will) are in need of medication for that illness.

It is also true that treatment for this illness has advanced quite a bit since Pastorious was alive.

now - to say that the bi-polar issues prompted the drug addiction is nothing more that pure conjecture. Some believe that people are born as addicts and will become addicts once they start using any mood or mind altering chemicals in any amount - whether it be alcohol, pot - or anything else.

i have no opinion on this issue - the fact of the matter is that it seems that he had both illnesses - and they are not necessarily related.

My wife does not suffer from the disease of addction - that disease is much closer to home for me. So I have some personal experience in that area - and strong second hand experience in the other.

[jazz_man]

Well Miles was over-rated because he never learned how to play the trumpet "properly." He should have never dropped out of Jailyard to go play with Bird. Once he was a leader, Miles just hired a bunch of talented sidemen who made him sound alot better.

Oh and Bird, yeah he squandered all that talent with his drug and alcohol problems. Come on, he never wrote anything orginal. He just took the chord changes from pop tunes, played a bunch of random, chromatic nonsense, and then had the audacity to call them his own tunes. The influence of be-bop on the jazz canon is way over-rated anyway.

Trane? Come on, all the critics mindlessly hyped A Love Supreme because it was beyond their collective musical comprehension, so it had to a masterpiece. Right? Oh, and his later period...well it didn't swing, and where were the chord changes for crying out loud? All that squealing and squawking!! Trane died too young anyways, so he never reached his full potential. And that church in San Francisco, that's just a big marketing ploy to further fuel the hype.

Herbie - well he had the nerve to play an electric instrument, so he must have spoiled and wasted all that talent of his. He'll never reach his full potential because he's made pop records. How dare he!

[senorblues]

Are you serious or joking? I imagine you think that somene like Wynton or Metheny are the true virtuosos. Miles should have dropped out of school so he could do what is did which was to move jazz ahead and be an inovater. I can't even adress the others.

[jazzofonik]

I detected a t least a touch of sarcasm in jazz man's post

[straight-up-and-down]

If touch could kill... ;)

[jkelman]

I know many recovering addicts who also suffer from bi-polar or mental disorders


simply treating the mental disorder with medication does little or nothing to help the addict treat his or her drug addiction.
Not arguin with you Steve - they are often two separate but sometimes connected illnesses. In a close-to-home example though, getting the bipolar disorder under control allowed my family member to stop the substance abusing - and that was 5 yers ago and not a blip yet.

But that isn't to say a double-pronged approach isn't required in other cases. Just that sometimes it's really the bipolar disorder that's creating the urge for substances.

But certainly not in all cases - and with Jaco...who knows?
John

[J_Deighton]

Okay people- deep frickin' breath here. This is a jazz message board. Everybody is entitled to their opinion regarding who is over-rated. I can't imagine anyone takes this conversation too seriously. The idea that all the jazz musicians that came before are untouchables is just as rediculous as some crank saying they don't dig Trane or think he's over-rated- (or Joshua Redman in my case, or whoever...)
I don't dig Jaco. I personally do not think he is over-rated, he just isn't my thing, but please just write me, or whoever else off as a no-taste creton. Don't take this all so personally. We love the music or else we wouldn't be here.

[straight-up-and-down]

If someone says an artist I know and value higher than the rest is overrated, I shall ask for proof.
When you say you don't dig someone, the statement itself proves the point already. 't would be like arguing whether you wear pants or not or something :)
I'm not judging anyone's intellectual abilities, but I feel free to criticize one's opinions when the incriminated person doesn't prove any of his/her points. Since the proof I've been given here didn't seem convincing at all, I decided to discuss the matter. I hope I've offended no one.
Otherwise, it's all tongue-in-cheek and if you asked me to, I could argue with you about just anything :)

[jkelman]

Okay people- deep frickin' breath here. This is a jazz message board. Everybody is entitled to their opinion regarding who is over-rated. I can't imagine anyone takes this conversation too seriously. The idea that all the jazz musicians that came before are untouchables is just as rediculous as some crank saying they don't dig Trane or think he's over-rated- (or Joshua Redman in my case, or whoever...)
I don't dig Jaco. I personally do not think he is over-rated, he just isn't my thing, but please just write me, or whoever else off as a no-taste creton. Don't take this all so personally. We love the music or else we wouldn't be here.
J - I don't see that much angst here, so wouldn't worry about it. As for you not liking Jaco? As you say, you're a no-taste creton :clown: (just kidding).

Personally I'm obviously a fan, and the sad and early end to his life was tragic, but yes, at the end of the day it's all about taste, innit? And in some ways I think I'm actually a bigger fan of Jaco the writer than I am Jaco the player. He could tend to excess - in fact, when I saw him with Weather Report here in, I think, 1976, it was clear he was higher than a kite and wasn't listening to anyone around him. Zawinul looked pissed through the whole performance, and a buddy of mine was backstage afterwards, where he reported Jaco consuming almost unheard of amounts of just about everything.

I think Steve R would agree that, for the addict, the drug of choice is: more.

Anyway, over-rated, under-rated, what does it really matter? You either like someone or you don't.

Best!
John

[skierbum02]

just wanted in on the wynton part of this discussion. now i would agree that he has moments where he doesn't live up to his name. then again i cant say that as i'm not within a poles lentgh of touching his talent. despite his "weaker" moments you still have remember what hes done for the genre. in my observations he has been the biggest contributor to jazz becoming more mainstream and if for nothing else he deserves respect for that. just thought i'd add my thoughts on the issue

[Saxman]

Well Miles was over-rated because he never learned how to play the trumpet "properly." He should have never dropped out of Jailyard to go play with Bird. Once he was a leader, Miles just hired a bunch of talented sidemen who made him sound alot better.

Oh and Bird, yeah he squandered all that talent with his drug and alcohol problems. Come on, he never wrote anything orginal. He just took the chord changes from pop tunes, played a bunch of random, chromatic nonsense, and then had the audacity to call them his own tunes. The influence of be-bop on the jazz canon is way over-rated anyway.

Trane? Come on, all the critics mindlessly hyped A Love Supreme because it was beyond their collective musical comprehension, so it had to a masterpiece. Right? Oh, and his later period...well it didn't swing, and where were the chord changes for crying out loud? All that squealing and squawking!! Trane died too young anyways, so he never reached his full potential. And that church in San Francisco, that's just a big marketing ploy to further fuel the hype.

Herbie - well he had the nerve to play an electric instrument, so he must have spoiled and wasted all that talent of his. He'll never reach his full potential because he's made pop records. How dare he!

ROTFL! :D

Loving electric and acoustic jazz is setting oneself up for crucifiction. Wanna see my nail marks? :laugh:

[senorblues]

I agree as I love both and don't crucify the players who cross over and make some bread as long as they still play good jazz after. About Wynton, I do think he is overated and doesn't have near the talent and soul of someone like Lee Morgan or today. Arturo Sandoval. It's almost like he was groomed to take this role as the "savior" for jazz. Sorry, I don't mean to start another thing on him.

[Matt Leivers]

Weather Report. After about 1974 there was just about Nothing worth hearing going on. What a waste of talent that band was - especially of Wayne Shorter. And - without wanting to stir up old coals - alot of the blame for the later 70s disinterestingness belongs to Jaco Pastorius. Like Chester Thompson said : Alphonso had this wonderful sense of space when he played, and Jaco was just all notes. It just didn’t work."

[Saxman]

Weather Report. After about 1974 there was just about Nothing worth hearing going on. What a waste of talent that band was - especially of Wayne Shorter. And - without wanting to stir up old coals - alot of the blame for the later 70s disinterestingness belongs to Jaco Pastorius. Like Chester Thompson said : Alphonso had this wonderful sense of space when he played, and Jaco was just all notes. It just didn’t work."

I only liked their first album. Zawinul and the synthesizer should never be in the same room. :barf:

[Hot Ptah]

Regarding Weather Report, I think that 1975's "Talespinning" and "Black Market" (from 1976) were excellent, "Heavy Weather", "Night Passage" and "8:30" had their moments, and that the rest of the later recorded output was inconsistent. I thought that Jaco was fine during his first tour in 1976, and became more of a showoff later--although he played quite well at times even later on. So we can all disagree on Weather Report--that is O.K.

[CJ Shearn]

my $.02 on Jaco. I love his playing, and having heard most of his recorded output as a leader, I've felt that "Word of Mouth" was a letdown. It's scope was incredible, and there are some fantastic tunes like "Three Views of a Secret" (which I love) and "Liberty City" and that bombastic title track, but when I think of Jaco as a great player and composer truly coming together, it's his first album for me, and "The Birthday Concert" is great too.

[NewJazz4Mike]

Hard to say... I only got to see Jaco once, with his own act, that is. Caught him at the Academy of Music on a triple bill with John McLaughlin and Jeff Beck. Had to be early 70s... strange show all around. McLaughlin was booed quite alot for playing a guitar synth (way before Metheny). People yelling, "Just play the guitar!" And I hazily recall (those were seriously hazy days), Jaco banging a garbage can cover on stage. He was inventive, electric, had visionary technique.... in short, he was ahead of his time. He was a bit of an idol of mine at the time. His was an incomplete arc though, who knows how he may have developed? I like his play on th eMetheny album, but mostly - I don't really listen to his music these days. His style doesn't agree with my current tastes in jazz. Same with someone like Victor Wooten - a monster on the electric bass, but just not my favorite sound or style. I personally never cared much for Weather Report, so my vote for "overrated" goes to them - despite Shorter, Zawinul, Pastorius, etc.

[aristotle]

Wynton Marsalis
Miles Davis, post-1975: Tutu, You're Under Arrest...dont even go there.

[CJ Shearn]

NewJazz4Mike, I'm not a huge Wooten fan either, incredible technique and hes a cool guy too, but nothing of his has really spoke to me.

[aquabenz]

Ben Allison's star rose to quickly.

Drew Gress is underrated. a lot.

Jaco Pastorious never reached his potential, or tried to.


I don't think Allison's star rose too quickly. He already had a handful of good albums that barely anyone outside of NYC had ever heard before he got more popular in the last two years. His bands are definitely consistent in their freshness and I think he's worthy of more attention if anything.

Gress is one of the best bassists I've ever seen or heard, both a hard worker and a deep thinker who can play any style and consistently surprise his bandmates and listeners. 7 Black Butterflies should get all the accolades in the world for being a masterful album.

Enough about Jaco already. He was very talented and brilliant technical player, but his own cocky meatheadedness and his unfortunate entrapment in the fusion world made his career an incredibly unbalanced mess. I also can't stand the army of bassists who put him on a pedestal and insultingly hold up tons of subsequent (and better) electric bassists to his paradigm like he could do no wrong. Let's hear about Skuli Sverisson, maybe, a quiet and humbly brilliant Icelander who's pushed himself in a zillion directions and easily transcended Jaco's egotistical flash-pan career by working hard, experimenting, playing with innumerable different players, and not talking shit about how he's the best bassist in the world!

I have issues with Wooten for the same reasons. He's got undeniably astounding technique, but his music seems like kind of a cop out, or more accurately, a "resting on his laurels" with the whole bass guitar-hero thing, which makes for lame technique-based solos and boring original music.

Technique is certainly important (and I would argue that Skuli's bass technique is far beyond Jaco's, especially heard in the flawless written parts he lays down on Pachora's albums), but I think that many players let that shit become everything even at the expense of originality, melody, and adventurous improv.

I still say that the most underrated musician of all is Paul Dunmall. His Solo Tenor album from earlier this spring is just plain amazing.

I agree that Ben Monder is underrated. Others I would mention are Marc Ducret, Chris Speed, Andrew D'Angelo, Frode Gjerstad, Hilmar Jensson, Trevor Dunn, Tony Malaby, and too many others to count.

One last mention: I definitely have to say that John Zorn and several of his Tzadik regulars are over-rated, especially because of the way lots of indie-scenesters have adopted Tzadik as their pet avant-garde label.

[nedgoold]

What about Miles - I think at one time he was a superior jazz musician - but his later output - perhaps following the Gill Evans period, was down hill all the way. His peak was undoubtedly the over worked "Kind of Blue" Album.
Mostly trash in his later, especially electronic, years.

I completely disagree. His records up to the 2nd quintet period are 2nd rate bebop when compared to the Bird records he's on. The 2nd quintet invents something new that is the best jazz of the decade (along with Coltrane). Those records are a peak in Jazz history. And I think that On the Corner is one of the most underrated records ever. I think one day it will recieve it's due. It reminds me of Xenakis. Any record that uses similar elements must be compared to that and it was made 35 years ago.

[theGN]

Hate me if you will, (& I love Fusion gtr) but .....John Mclaughlin.

His straight-ahead jazz is tame & the old fusion recordings had slop as an excuse for innovation.

[Tom K]

A lot of people will hate me for my suggestion: Don Pullen.
The reason is not technical skill or anything like that, but it's a matter of taste and musical logic. Each time I saw him I had the feeling that he chose playing "in" or "out" at random, with no organic transition from the one to the other. And oh, did the folks love him!

[Hope and Ascension]

Overrated. Hmm. Perhaps Thelonious Monk. After a while his compositions make my head explode.

[Hope and Ascension]

Hate me if you will, (& I love Fusion gtr) but .....John Mclaughlin.

His straight-ahead jazz is tame & the old fusion recordings had slop as an excuse for innovation.

Do you prefer being tarred and featherd, or beheading?

Just joshin', man, to each his own. ~pimp:

[Paul Chambers]

I think that Miles Davis was overrated in the 70s and 80s. He is one of my favourite jazzmusicians but I don't like the shit he made in this decades, I like the old stuff more, the things he made in the 50s and 60s and also at the beginning with Bird and Diz end of the fourties.

And Joe Zawinul, somebody I won't like ever. :shrug:

[Sly_R]

I was about to give an answer, but I don't want to answer to the guy if I'm ever lucky enough to meet him.

[westknife]

Miles Davis, post-1975: Tutu, You're Under Arrest...dont even go there.
i wasn't under the impression those albums were too highly rated in the first place.:shrug:

oh yeah, and my vote goes to weather report. i've tried to like weather report, but they're just so... boring

[Markie60]

Just listened to Wynton Marsalis on:"You Don't know what love is" (Live at the House of Tribes) again confirming that as technically great as he thinks he is, Wynton is simply over-rated.

I have always thought Dizzy Gillespie was over-rated. Once you listen to Tom Harrell or Clifford Brown or, of course, Miles, wynton just shines with arrogant over-ratedness.

[pRogers]

I can dig Dizzy sometimes, and I definately gotta respect him, but he sometimes gets on my nerves. Too many licks and high notes (especially the high notes).

I think his rhythm is amazing though.

[Marcello]

For the two posters above, I think you should get this fine exaple of later Birks:

http://www.townsend-records.co.uk/i/covers/1056659.jpg

Dizzy Gillespie
Jazz In Paris - The Giant (1xCD)
Released: February 19, 2001

1. Stella By Starlight
2. I Waited For You
3. Girl Of My Dreams
4. Fiesta Mojo
5. Serenity

Personnel: Dizzy Gillespie (trumpet); Johnny Griffin (tenor saxophone); Kenny Drew (piano); Niels-Henning Orsted Pedersen (bass); Kenny Clarke (drums); Humberto Canto (tumbas).

AND THIS:

http://www.townsend-records.co.uk/i/covers/1009340.jpg

Dizzy Gillespie
Bahiana (1xCD)
Released: June 1, 1996

1. Carnival
2. Samba
3. Barcelona
4. In The Land Of The Living Dead
5. Behind The Moonbeam
6. Truth
7. Pele
8. Olinga

Personnel: Dizzy Gillespie, Roger Glenn, Al Gafa, Michael Howell, Earl May, Mickey Roker, Paulinho Da Costa.

Recorded on November 20, 1975.

[senorblues]

I agree completly that Wynton is over rated even though he has great technique-chops. I also much prefer Tom Harell or Arturo Sandoval. With trumpet, I think it's what sound or tone appeals to the individual listener. I always loved the 2 mentioned above and also Lee Morgan as my favs. Wynton's sound irritates me so much, but we have been down this road before and If we persist in talking about the illustrious Wynton Marsailes, The jazz police will show up on this thread

[cleveland jazz]

chet baker. sorry to all big chet fans, but he really doesn't do anything that special to me.

[cleveland jazz]

oh and keith jarrett definitely. go watch the video of him playing all the things you are on youtube.com, he just fuckin babbles the whole time. no structure, no dynamics, just sixteenth note bop lines without cease.

[burning dog]

This topic is severely overrated

[Hot Ptah]

This topic is severely overrated


I agree!

[Jazz Purist]

To me, Norah Jones is by far the most overrated "jazz artist" to come along the past 15 years. Diana Krall has more talent in my opinion.

How do you win Grammy Awards in the field of jazz when you play so little of it?

[jkelman]

To me, Norah Jones is by far the most overrated "jazz artist" to come along the past 15 years. Diana Krall has more talent in my opinion.

How do you win Grammy Awards in the field of jazz when you play so little of it?
The problem, JP, is not with Jones, it's with the marketing machine around her. In interview she is absolutely clear that she doesn't consider herself to be a jazz artist. So she's not overrated (because if you take her for what she is - a singer/songwriter, she's actually quite good I think); it's the people who have positioned her that have created that situation.

[senorblues]

I agree this topic is also overdone. Most all the grammy winners are way over rated!

[butchers]

I think the new "stars of jazz" such as Jamie Cullum and Joss Stone. It isn't really jazz, but pop music really.

[Saxman]

Agreed: Jones has never called herself jazz.

Krall: hot to look at, decent pianist, bland vocalist. At least she can sing on key, but her delivery of standards is SO predictable that I can sing along with a brand new recording of hers and match her phrase per phrase without ever having heard it before. THAT'S going through the motions! :shrug:

[jkelman]

Krall: hot to look at, decent pianist, bland vocalist.
Couldn't have said it better myself, except that I actually don't find her that hot.

When she played Ottawa it was an outdoor show, and I was at the media trailer in the afternoon, just hanging. A security person comes and tells me that everyone has to "clear the field" for Krall's soundcheck. A little irked (there werent more than a handful of people in the park anyway), I just moved to the back where she wouldn't see me. Her band was great and, as you say, she struck me as a competent pianist and totally uninspired vocalist.

[Saxman]

Couldn't have said it better myself, except that I actually don't find her that hot.

When she played Ottawa it was an outdoor show, and I was at the media trailer in the afternoon, just hanging. A security person comes and tells me that everyone has to "clear the field" for Krall's soundcheck. A little irked (there werent more than a handful of people in the park anyway), I just moved to the back where she wouldn't see me. Her band was great and, as you say, she struck me as a competent pianist and totally uninspired vocalist.

She played a date at the Chicago Theatre about 5 years ago. The newpaper review said she told a patron to "Take that drink off my stage." It got a kind of irked/shocked reaction from the audience so she tried to cover up by saying, "Oh what the hell, leave it there." Then she laughed. No one else did.

I read an interview of her where she was saying how hot she and her sisters were. Ego seems pretty large and from John's story, confirmed. Right place, right time, average talent, decent looks = superstar. Welcome to 2006. Ha, ha, ha!

[jkelman]

I read an interview of her where she was saying how hot she and her sisters were. Ego seems pretty large and from John's story, confirmed. Right place, right time, average talent, decent looks = superstar. Welcome to 2006. Ha, ha, ha!
It actually gets better. Where the festival takes place, in a park in downtown Ottawa, its east side runs along the Rideau Canal, which runs through the city. There's a street on the north side that goes up to a bridge that crosses the canal, and it's not uncommon to see passers by stop on the bridge and catch a little of the festival's music gratis. Nobody seems to mind, and this has been going on for 25 years.

Well, at Krall's show they moved some tractor trailers in so that the view from the bridge was obstructed. I'd also like to point out that Harry Connick Jr., who opened the festival that year, did nothing of the kind. While I'm not a fan of his crooner stuff (though his duo show with Branford Marsalis the following evening was great - so great, in fact, that when they put out the DVD, which had recordings from Ottawa and NYC, they just went with the Ottawa show; anyway, he seemed very down to earth at the duo show) he was the consummate entertainer, had a great band and put on a totally enjoyable, if not a little fluffy, show.

So not all the big guys feel the need to exercise their inner diva...:shrug:
John

[thedwork]

...Well, at Krall's show they moved some tractor trailers in so that the view from the bridge was obstructed.

that's discouraging to hear this stuff about krall. oh well... and i pretty much agree w/ what you guys think about her abilities - except i'd give her a touch more credit on the piano.

I'd also like to point out that Harry Connick Jr., who opened the festival that year, did nothing of the kind...

he was the consummate entertainer, had a great band and put on a totally enjoyable, if not a little fluffy, show...

not a surprise at all. he's been pretty exceptional in a few ways for quite a while now, and always comes off as a very decent guy. for me he's proof that assuming something stinks based solely on the fact that it is popular, is bunk...

:cheers

[Ornate Coalman]

don't really understand all the fuss; if she is so mediocre, why complain that you can't see her for free ? Its like that woody allen joke about the 2 old ladies complaining about the food in a restaurant, one says that the food was terrible and her friend says; 'yes, and such small portions'.
I remember when such a minor figure as Courtney Pine had gorillas going around the audience at an open-air gig forbidding people to take photographs. Sad, but Mr Pine has not had any of my money invested in his music since.

[jkelman]

don't really understand all the fuss; if she is so mediocre, why complain that you can't see her for free ? Its like that woody allen joke about the 2 old ladies complaining about the food in a restaurant, one says that the food was terrible and her friend says; 'yes, and such small portions'.
Then you miss my point Ornate (though I, too, love that Woody joke :clown: ). Personally, after seeing the soundcheck, I didn't cover the show. My point is that the fact of her being so highfalutin' as to block the view from a bridge (when the park was packed, by the way; being mediocre is no deterrent to success) was objectionable from a moral standpoint, since nobody - but nobody - in all the years of the festival that I've seen has ever pulled such a ridiculous stunt.
John