Speaking about Bassists..............

[DWBass]

Copyu and others interested...

Aside from the ongoing discussion on Death Metal, let's talk about bassists in general?!

I have had the opportunity to listen to Sean Malone with his Solar Wind Band. Now although he is a very good bassist bordering on world class, I wouldn't place him on that level as yet. He has not, IMO, made a contribution to the advancement of the instrument as say a Victor Wooten, Brian Bromberg, Stanley Clarke, etc. The few that I mentioned (and there are more) are also equally as proficient on the acoustic bass as well. They all have also played classical and world music within their styles. Sean Malone has not done anything new with the instrument! Pretty much copying what he's learned from other bassists and from most likely at least one of the above mentioned bassists. This has nothing to do with speed! Sure, who wouldn't want to be able to play diatonic scale arpeggios at 200bpm+! It just means that you're fast and nothing else. Besides DM, where would this speed be applied? Maybe classical music (Flight Of The Bumblebees).

Check out Tom Kennedy (Dave Weckl Band)
Check out Bill Dickens
Check out Victor Bailey (Metro, Weather Report, solo)
Check out Scott Ambush (Spyro Gyra)
Check out Alain Caron (UZEB, solo)

These guys are world class to me! They have their own voices and have contributed to the advancement of the instrument.
I will provide more names as I remember them. (If I had my own server, I'd provide examples.) Also, fingerstyle is NOT the only part of playing the instrument. Slapping, Tapping, Chordal, Fingerfunk, Flamenco, Pick style and others are all considered.

Here's a lesson for you.......Listen to some of the late 70's-early 80's bass work by Leon Sylvers on all of the Whispers and Shalamar hits of that period(R&B genre). As simple as those basslines are, can you tell me there are DM bassists that can play that kind of funk with that kind of conviction? These are basslines that just came out of a human being with funk and soul in his blood. Nothing written down!

[Coypu]

I didn't know that Sean Malone played on the Solar Wind band? Are you sure about this???

Ok to add some things that you might not know about Sean,

He is an acclaimed master of the 12 stringed chapman stick which is a sortof bass + guitar instrument that is played by the tapping tecnique. So he is a master tapper but because he playes fretless he doesn't do tapping nor slapping since it doesn't sound as well and wears out the fretboard. But listen to his work with Gordian Knot and the stick solo in Cynic's textures to hear his tapping skills.

Sean plays fastests on his jazz work and actually less fast on his DM work so Sean isn't the single minded speed player you make him out to be. Take a close look at his basslines in Cynic and analyse them, you will find how extremely well they work within the music and I have never heard any jazz player to have such complete basslines that Sean has.

No he hasn't done anything new as inventing new playing tecniques or such but he completely reinvented the basslines in DM and did he was the first to use Chapman stick on a death metal release so he is a pioneer in many areas.

Make sure you listen to theese bands (and ALL their songs) before you make further comments on his playing :

Aghora
Gordian Knot
Cynic
Spastic Ink
Spiral Architect

You might want to listen to his classical compositions too but unfortunately I have no idea how to get hold of them. :(

Contact me on icq 22230316 if you want me to send you the songs.

Now I hope that this subject is done because I do not wanto engange in a discussion about Sean at this time. Maybe when you have heard his stuff but at that point you will be as convinced as I am.

------------------------

Tom Kennedy - recomend songs
Check out Bill Dickens - He plays for Disney at times right? Recomend me some songs that I can check out, I know to little about him.
Check out Victor Bailey - recomend songs
Check out Scott Ambush - recomend songs
Check out Alain Caron - I have a song called flight of the bepop bee which is pretty impressive playing wise. I find his music abit shallow though with almost a happy and careless sound to it.

I'm personally against using slapping as a general tecnique, I think that adding a few slapps and pops in a song can work for the good but when you use it as a main tecnique it seems to always sound cheesy or just like crap. Because really fast slapping alá Classical Thump for example doesn't sound good, the individual notes get blurry and lack definition.

Tapping is nice, I'm a small Manring fan myself and the tecnique is can be very accurate and adds up many possibilies. Look up Billy Sheehan too who is a amazing tapper and actually a innovator in the bass tapping area.

Chordal playing can be nice but rarely usefull in avarage songs where guitar or keybord are pressent since it is an area which they are far superior.

I don't like pickplaying on bass but DM has a shitload of them and there are some incredibly skilled ones like the guy in Theory in practice for example. Picks have a tendancy to make for a crappier sound but there are exceptions like Clayton Ingerson in Dysrhythmia.

You need to direct me to some mp3's of that 70-80's stuff since I have a hard time finding any. But let us turn the tables and ask how many outside of DM who can play metal basslines which such conviction as Roger Patterson (RIP) of Atheist.

[Coypu]

Roger Patterson (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Atheist%20-%20Peice%20of%20Time%20%5b1990%5d/atheist%20-%20unholy%20war.mp3)

Roger Patterson sample 2 (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Atheist%20-%20Peice%20of%20Time%20%5b1990%5d/Atheist%20-%20Room%20With%20A%20View.mp3)

Clayton Ingerson (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/Bass/ClaytonNutritionalFacelift.mp3)

Clayton Ingerson sample 2 (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/Bass/ClaytonCirculatorySystemOverhaul.mp3)

Theory In Practice (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/theory%20in%20practice%20-%20phase%201%20departure.mp3)

[DWBass]

I'm sorry, I'm mixing up Sean Mason with Sean Malone!! :( So disregard my mentioning Sean Malone!

As far as comparing one of my bassists to yours, I don't think that's gonna happen because I don't think there is a frame of reference of anyone who's played DM! Slap bass is here to stay and it is an integral part of the jazz scene (in fact, all music). As far as recomedations, I will round up a few and post them. I just got rid of ICQ on my machine. I do have all the other's though. AOL IM, Yahoo IM and MSN IM. MSN IM is the best for transferring files. If you don't have it, I recommend downloading and installing it. I also use WinMX. I can I.D. a song for you to find and download.

[3pointdeli]

i don't care for death metal, especially the "cookie monster" singing, but i've got to hand it to coypu for posting the samples of clayton ingerson. his band, dysrhythmia (who i'm reluctant to call "death metal"), played in atlanta last year and were fantastic.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
i don't care for death metal, especially the "cookie monster" singing, but i've got to hand it to coypu for posting the samples of clayton ingerson. his band, dysrhythmia (who i'm reluctant to call "death metal"), played in atlanta last year and were fantastic.

One of the reason it sucks to live in sweden is that I can't see Dysrhythmia live :(

I'm still amazed to see that other people than me seem to know and like this amazing band though! Make sure that you listen to Spastic Ink as well, Dysrhythmias drummer will be on the new Spastic Ink album on one track and Spastic is quite similar but a tad more technical (alot more actually).

I'm sorry, I'm mixing up Sean Mason with Sean Malone!! So disregard my mentioning Sean Malone!

As far as comparing one of my bassists to yours, I don't think that's gonna happen because I don't think there is a frame of reference of anyone who's played DM! Slap bass is here to stay and it is an integral part of the jazz scene (in fact, all music). As far as recomedations, I will round up a few and post them. I just got rid of ICQ on my machine. I do have all the other's though. AOL IM, Yahoo IM and MSN IM. MSN IM is the best for transferring files. If you don't have it, I recommend downloading and installing it. I also use WinMX. I can I.D. a song for you to find

I'm glad to see that you mixed them up since what you said maid little sense if it was directed to Sean.

DM & Black Metal have sofar been blessed by almost total absence of slapbass and for that I am very happy. Most of technical metal seems to have avoided it too which also it good. Do you actually like stuff like Primus and Wooten on a musical level or only as a bassplayer appreciating the skill it takes?

I just installed Msn IM and here is my Id : coypux@hotmail.com , add me when you can and I can send some stuff if you like.

[3pointdeli]

coypu, maybe you'll get the chance to see dysrhythmia in sweeden before too long. they tour relentlessly in the u.s. and are about to record a new record for a new label (relapse, i think.) perhaps this will lead to a european tour. i hope you get the chance to see them.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
coypu, maybe you'll get the chance to see dysrhythmia in sweeden before too long. they tour relentlessly in the u.s. and are about to record a new record for a new label (relapse, i think.) perhaps this will lead to a european tour. i hope you get the chance to see them.

Yeah I heard they got signed, very nice since they really deserve it. Well I sure hope they come here but I somehow doubt it. I don't think that they would make any cash going here because there is maybe 50 persons in sweden who knows about them.

[DWBass]

Well I don't like Primus and I don't think much of Les Claypool as he is a copier of much better bassists. No voice of his own. Now, Victor Wooten has so much more to offer the bass. He is inventive, has a voice, and has secured himself a place in bassdom history as an innovator. As far as his slap skills, he plays with inventiveness and not within the norm. In fact, he's stated such that he bored with the general state of slap bass. His style is unique unto itself where he hits a string with his thumb on the downstroke and then comes back up with the same thumb pulling on the string with his thumbnail in a sort of 'pick' motion. He has perfected a style that no-one else has matched as far as I know. I like slap bass when it is musical and used to play a groove. I like some solo's but many bassists slap solo's really suck. I myself am a decent slapper (I'm more fingerfunk style) but play it on a minimal level relegated to just grooving. I consider myself wellrounded as a bassist. I am of Jamaican heritage and grew up on all sorts of poly rhythms. I can play pretty much all ethnic styles authentically since it's in my blood and I feel those rhythms. I have not been blessed with the ability to play super fast DM like speed but I adapt and use techniques that help me in obtaining the sounds I need. What you've heard from me is nowhere indicative of what I'm capable of playing. Anyway, back to the thread.......If a style is melodic and played tastefully, I dig it no matter what style of bass play. I love all bassplaying as long as it sounds good.

[omar zamora]

Peter Kowald (RIP), Mark Dresser, Joelle Leandre, William Parker, Paul Rogers, Barry Guy, Dominic Duval, John Lindberg, Mark Helias, and so on.

[3pointdeli]

you never know. when i saw dysrhythmia in atlanta there were probably 10 people in the audience. also, you say there are only 50 people who know of them in sweeden NOW, but maybe after their new record comes out that number will increase to 500. you should read their tour diaries (if you haven't already) and you'll see that they regularly play for small and large audiences.

[Coypu]

Well I agree on both Les and Wooten, Wooten is an amazing bassplayer who can play most tecniques with great skill. But I agree that any tecnique can be good if you use it right, I once hated all pickplaying but now I have no problem with it if the bassplayer does something good out of it. My main problem with slapping is probably originated from the fact that none of the music I listen to use alot of slapping so it is sortof alien to me. But maybe on day I will get over it.

Don't forgett the recomended songs though. You can however leave out Bill Dickens since I just remembered who he was and I have both seen and heard plenty of his stuff. He is a very fast slapper but I saw a video with him and he was playing high up on the frets on a bass with 7? strings and it sortof feels like you might as well get a guitar if you are up there fiddling but his skill was still amazing.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
you never know. when i saw dysrhythmia in atlanta there were probably 10 people in the audience. also, you say there are only 50 people who know of them in sweeden NOW, but maybe after their new record comes out that number will increase to 500. you should read their tour diaries (if you haven't already) and you'll see that they regularly play for small and large audiences.

Perhaps it is possible, they do get abit of attention here and there and now with their involvement in Spastic Ink most tech fans have heard of them. I did however see that they never toured outside of USA so that isn't very promising. But I just sent an email to Clayton so hopefully he will shed some light onto this.

He replied fast as hell so here it goes :

Dysrhythmia hasn't
been over to Europe yet, but I think it will happen sooner or later...maybe
in the next year or two. I would totally love to come to Sweden! We'll
have to see how things shape up--right now, we have a lot of U.S. touring
and recording happening, so we are really busy. Plus, Jeff (the drummer)
and I have our other band, Readyset, going as well. It's a full plate!

---------

Wohoo, my hope lives on!

[Coypu]

Originally posted by omar zamora
Peter Kowald (RIP), Mark Dresser, Joelle Leandre, William Parker, Paul Rogers, Barry Guy, Dominic Duval, John Lindberg, Mark Helias, and so on.

Add some descriptions and recomended songs and if possible some mp3's. It takes forever to hunt down all this info by myself.

[jazzypaul]

Well well well...I finally got the soundcard to work. If "Theory In Practice" is supposed to be a shining moment for death metal, the following reasons why you really need to broaden your horizons...

1) No development. Everytime the group would get into something, it would change. At about the 1/4 point and the 3/4 point, this happened. They actually hit a decent groove! But rode it for all of maybe 5 seconds. It may be technically difficult music, but what fun is that if you can't shake your ass to it?

2) Personal nitpicking from a drummer's point of view...Why is the drummer mimicking the guitarist's rhythms? If he wants to play what the guitarist is playing, tell him to buy a guitar! He could have cut straight through the middle with a good solid groove, or even played counterpoint with the guitarist. Instead, it's just another metal band trying to prove that they're tight. Yawn.

3) Why does every single metal guitar solo sound like it was played on a Jackson and could have been played by Kirk Hammett? 16th and 8th notes falling firmy on beat are great and all, but if these guys are so talented, why aren't they utilizing offbeats, subdivisions and polyrhythms? This is all stuff that is just as easily found on the uptempo track on any generic hair metal band.


I must say, this is a first. When I listen to music, it's usually never long enough. This time, it couldn't have been over soon enough.

Listen to more jazz.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Well well well...I finally got the soundcard to work. If "Theory In Practice" is supposed to be a shining moment for death metal, the following reasons why you really need to broaden your horizons...

1) No development. Everytime the group would get into something, it would change. At about the 1/4 point and the 3/4 point, this happened. They actually hit a decent groove! But rode it for all of maybe 5 seconds. It may be technically difficult music, but what fun is that if you can't shake your ass to it?

2) Personal nitpicking from a drummer's point of view...Why is the drummer mimicking the guitarist's rhythms? If he wants to play what the guitarist is playing, tell him to buy a guitar! He could have cut straight through the middle with a good solid groove, or even played counterpoint with the guitarist. Instead, it's just another metal band trying to prove that they're tight. Yawn.

3) Why does every single metal guitar solo sound like it was played on a Jackson and could have been played by Kirk Hammett? 16th and 8th notes falling firmy on beat are great and all, but if these guys are so talented, why aren't they utilizing offbeats, subdivisions and polyrhythms? This is all stuff that is just as easily found on the uptempo track on any generic hair metal band.

I must say, this is a first. When I listen to music, it's usually never long enough. This time, it couldn't have been over soon enough.

Listen to more jazz.

1. It takes repeated listens before you can digest a song like this. I swing along with tune since I know how it goes, I have no problem keeping up with the changes. This is technical music and not straight jazz you know.

2. Sit down and play the song and you might realise hard it is. He is also doing the vocals so maybe he would go mad if he ventured to much with the drumming. But I agree that his drumming isn't the most inventive on the earth. TIP is extremely guitardriven and that is their only flaw as I see it.

3. I'm not a big fan of this guy, he comes from the old school of Yngvie malmsteen but this guy is much better than Kirk but unfortunately he plays to oldschool stuff. Still hard to play though but I had prefered Paul Masvidal as a lead guitarplayer if I could choose.

Oh, and you shoud start to get into Ron Jarzombek, he uses most of the theory you talk about. Here is a tune where the lead guitar themes and melodies never hit a note on the downbeat of any count. snuff (http://www.spasticink.com/18.mp3) this song is pretty much one of his fun tunes, he does some *really* technical music that is rhythmoically advanced in his band Spastic Ink and his old prog band Watchtower.

This is however a bassthread and it is as a bassplayer *very* hard to play along with TIP.

[Coypu]

Here is a bassplayer that deserve some extra creadit : Lars K Norberg. He plays in the fusion band Spiral Architect and his basslines are actually the best I have ever heard in any form of music. He never settles with the easy ways but always have killer basslines in all parts of the music. He improvises some parts and some in pre written.

Take a listen : Insect (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spiral%20Architect%20-%20A%20Sceptics%20Universe%20-%2005%20-%20Insect.mp3) Spinning (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spiral%20Architect%20-%20A%20Sceptics%20Universe%20-%2001%20-%20Spinning.mp3)

[jazzypaul]

"This is technical music and not straight jazz you know."


This is why the world is going downhill. This is why Ford is buying all of the great mid-level luxury cars of the world, why Oakland will win the super bowl, why Stevie Wonder is remembered in certain quarters for "I Just Called To Say I Love You" instead of "As," why White Castle isn't available west of the mississippi and why Jeep stopped making the Cherokee. Because of ignorance like this remark. Jazz is slammed enough in the press by jerks who call Kenny G and Rick Braun jazz, by the average teenager who won't even listen because it's "old people's music" and by critics who find it to be longwinded. Now, to have someone come in here and waste my time with "Theory In Practice" because it's technical? Coypu, all I can say to this is the following...

you and your sweep picking Jackson playing guitarists, your guitar shadowing, non thinking, non mode using bass players, your "I can't tune a bass drum correctly, so I'll just stick a plastic garbage can lid inside the drum" drummers and especially your Beavis-esque singers can all kiss my ass.

I'm hoping this not so subtle message was enough to finally get through to you, your black t-shirt, your unwashed mullet, and all 34 dice in your dungeons and dragons masters kit. I'm sick of your thought that just because something is subtle that it is no good. Jazz is all about subtlety. If we wanted to listen to "music" that sounds like sledgehammers banging on concrete, we would!! But we're not at that site. We're here. Find me one album that has been reviewed that has anything to do with the music that you keep trying to ram down people's throats! Why don't you try learning for once instead of trying to preach a gospel that no one wants to hear in this temple!

[Coypu]

How can I stop to post comments like that when I get replies like this... You're a funny guy Jazzypaul so let me just explain a few things so that you don't turn this thread into a flame war.

Lots of death metal is very hard to digest, this has nothing to do with being superior to jazz it just is that way.

Sweep picking is a tecnique that all good guitar players master and I don't see why you complain about it. Surely some guitarplayers over use it but you can expect everyone to be perfect. Jazz have their rotten apples too.

Thinking in modes is something that many greats don't like to do : Holdsworth, Gary Willis etc. Sure they know how they work but they aren't exactly obsessed with them. Gary Willis even hate scales...

You can complain about drummers all you like but you can't find one jazz drummer who can play along with Origin.

I get that jazz is about subtelty but what if you want some force sometimes, then you have to turn to fusion or even further.

Don't turn this into a flame war with silly comments about role playing games and black t-shirts, it doesn't bring anything good in anyway.

[3pointdeli]

coypu says: "You can complain about drummers all you like but you can't find one jazz drummer who can play along with Origin"

i know nothing about origin, but that comment is laughable. tony williams (r.i.p.) would shred any metal drummer without breaking a sweat. not that he would lower himself to such macho bullshit.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
i know nothing about origin

obviously, the drummer in origin have recorded the fastest blastbeat in the world, you can always ask jazzypaul to play along with Origin. Jazzypaul can play anything (or so he claims) so it should be easy...

[jazzypaul]

you're right, I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but I also don't want to have death metal shoved down my throat when I want to talk about jazz. I don't want every thread to have some allusion to the greatness of death metal when I come to this forum to read what other people think about JAZZ. Not even fusion, which is only peripherally related to jazz, and really hasn't even been a source for musical advancement in about what 20 years? Especially considering the advancements that are fascinating that are going on right now in the music. Matthew Shipp's playing, Happy Apple's merging of punk aesthetics and jazz playing, MMW's work not only with turntables, but also in furthering the idea of avant-garde groove music. Kenny Garrett's constant pushing of the music in tons of different directions. As a guitarist/bassist interested in atonal and dissonent music how can you show your face here without having heard Derek Bailey, or even Metheny, Scofield and Frisell's more daring work? No, it's not death metal, and no, it won't sound like death metal. But if you're looking for death metal, you're in the wrong place. Now, onto your comments...

"Lots of death metal is very hard to digest, this has nothing to do with being superior to jazz it just is that way."

Considering your comments on Mingus, Trane and Ben Webster, Jazz would be rather hard to digest as well. Instead of trying to make me digest death metal, spend some time digesting jazz.

"Sweep picking is a tecnique that all good guitar players master and I don't see why you complain about it. Surely some guitarplayers over use it but you can expect everyone to be perfect. Jazz have their rotten apples too."

Tapping is also a technique used by many virtuosos. It also sounds like crap. My complaint comes from the fact that although some guitarists may overuse it, they all seem to be metal guitarists that get famous, and therefore, I end up having to hear. Yes, jazz has their rotten apples. I don't listen to them, and I certainly wouldn't put their MP3's up for everyone to hear.

"Thinking in modes is something that many greats don't like to do : Holdsworth, Gary Willis etc. Sure they know how they work but they aren't exactly obsessed with them. Gary Willis even hate scales..."

Holdsworth doesn't play modes? Are you nuts? As much as his tone usually drives me up a wall, I've listened to his work with Tony Williams in the second edition of Lifetime, and Holdsworth was all about playing modally enriched lines.

"You can complain about drummers all you like but you can't find one jazz drummer who can play along with Origin."

Ever stop to think that not one of those drummers could hop on a kit and truly make a band swing either? They'd either play too hard and kill the groove, or try playing the spangalang as straight up triplets, or they would sound like most other rock drummers who try to play jazz: completely mechanic. The next time you're at a death metal show, ask the drummer to swing for a few bars. Then compare that to Philly Joe or Art Taylor. Or to put it this way, this is a legendary story amongst the drummers who take craft seriously. At a drumming convention in Europe, in the strangest segue of all time, Dave Lombardo and Max Roach were on the same bill on one of the nights. Max sees Dave and his huge kit. The crowd is rightfully amazed by Dave's skill, technique and power. Max, however, is put off by the fact that Dave needs 16 drums to do what Ginger Baker could do with 6 drums, Max could do with 5 or Philly Joe could do with 4. So Max comes out with JUST HIS HI-HAT, and blows Lombardo off the stage. He plays with force, speed, technique, power, dynamics and sets the place on fire with JUST HIS HI-HAT. Instead of having me show you what jazz drummer could play death metal, show me what death metal drummer could play a complete show with just his hi-hats.

"I get that jazz is about subtelty but what if you want some force sometimes, then you have to turn to fusion or even further."

If you don't hear force in Coltrane, Derek Bailey, Joe Lovano, Charles Mingus' 60's work, Eric Dolphy, Archie Shepp or Kenny Garrett, then you're simply not listening.

"Don't turn this into a flame war with silly comments about role playing games and black t-shirts, it doesn't bring anything good in anyway."

So it's okay for you to slam the music that I love deeply in a place that I consider a respite where I can learn from my fellow jazz fans, it's okay for you to tell me that a bunch of guys who play music that has painted the world of metal into a stylistic corner for the last 15 years are "more supreme" than jazz players, it's okay for you to say that bands that play nothing but stylistic cliches have more going for them than music that has changed the way that people think, act and react to things around them. No, it's not. I take that personally. Mingus, Blakey, Trane, Eddie Harris, Wayne Shorter, Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock...these guys are the soundtrack to my life, the inspiration for my playing, my writing, my view on the world. And you have the gall to tell me that some screaming maniac with his amp on 11 is better in any way shape or form? How dare you?! If you don't want personal attacks, don't make them. When you knock jazz, as far as I'm concerned, it's personal. Not to mention, you may have whined about the mullet and the dungeons and dragons quip, but you didn't deny it...

[3pointdeli]

coypu, i like your posts. i think they're funny. but that limb you're out on is getting thinner and thinner.

i hope it doesn't snap.

sincerely,
3pointdeli

[3pointdeli]

maybe we ought to steer the death metal discussion back to the death metal thread. it seems to be spreading unnecessarily.

just a suggestion.

thanks.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
you're right, I don't want to turn this into a flame war, but I also don't want to have death metal shoved down my throat when I want to talk about jazz. I don't want every thread to have some allusion to the greatness of death metal when I come to this forum to read what other people think about JAZZ. Not even fusion, which is only peripherally related to jazz, and really hasn't even been a source for musical advancement in about what 20 years? Especially considering the advancements that are fascinating that are going on right now in the music. Matthew Shipp's playing, Happy Apple's merging of punk aesthetics and jazz playing, MMW's work not only with turntables, but also in furthering the idea of avant-garde groove music. Kenny Garrett's constant pushing of the music in tons of different directions. As a guitarist/bassist interested in atonal and dissonent music how can you show your face here without having heard Derek Bailey, or even Metheny, Scofield and Frisell's more daring work? No, it's not death metal, and no, it won't sound like death metal. But if you're looking for death metal, you're in the wrong place. Now, onto your comments...

"Lots of death metal is very hard to digest, this has nothing to do with being superior to jazz it just is that way."

Considering your comments on Mingus, Trane and Ben Webster, Jazz would be rather hard to digest as well. Instead of trying to make me digest death metal, spend some time digesting jazz.

"Sweep picking is a tecnique that all good guitar players master and I don't see why you complain about it. Surely some guitarplayers over use it but you can expect everyone to be perfect. Jazz have their rotten apples too."

Tapping is also a technique used by many virtuosos. It also sounds like crap. My complaint comes from the fact that although some guitarists may overuse it, they all seem to be metal guitarists that get famous, and therefore, I end up having to hear. Yes, jazz has their rotten apples. I don't listen to them, and I certainly wouldn't put their MP3's up for everyone to hear.

"Thinking in modes is something that many greats don't like to do : Holdsworth, Gary Willis etc. Sure they know how they work but they aren't exactly obsessed with them. Gary Willis even hate scales..."

Holdsworth doesn't play modes? Are you nuts? As much as his tone usually drives me up a wall, I've listened to his work with Tony Williams in the second edition of Lifetime, and Holdsworth was all about playing modally enriched lines.

"You can complain about drummers all you like but you can't find one jazz drummer who can play along with Origin."

Ever stop to think that not one of those drummers could hop on a kit and truly make a band swing either? They'd either play too hard and kill the groove, or try playing the spangalang as straight up triplets, or they would sound like most other rock drummers who try to play jazz: completely mechanic. The next time you're at a death metal show, ask the drummer to swing for a few bars. Then compare that to Philly Joe or Art Taylor. Or to put it this way, this is a legendary story amongst the drummers who take craft seriously. At a drumming convention in Europe, in the strangest segue of all time, Dave Lombardo and Max Roach were on the same bill on one of the nights. Max sees Dave and his huge kit. The crowd is rightfully amazed by Dave's skill, technique and power. Max, however, is put off by the fact that Dave needs 16 drums to do what Ginger Baker could do with 6 drums, Max could do with 5 or Philly Joe could do with 4. So Max comes out with JUST HIS HI-HAT, and blows Lombardo off the stage. He plays with force, speed, technique, power, dynamics and sets the place on fire with JUST HIS HI-HAT. Instead of having me show you what jazz drummer could play death metal, show me what death metal drummer could play a complete show with just his hi-hats.

"I get that jazz is about subtelty but what if you want some force sometimes, then you have to turn to fusion or even further."

If you don't hear force in Coltrane, Derek Bailey, Joe Lovano, Charles Mingus' 60's work, Eric Dolphy, Archie Shepp or Kenny Garrett, then you're simply not listening.

"Don't turn this into a flame war with silly comments about role playing games and black t-shirts, it doesn't bring anything good in anyway."

So it's okay for you to slam the music that I love deeply in a place that I consider a respite where I can learn from my fellow jazz fans, it's okay for you to tell me that a bunch of guys who play music that has painted the world of metal into a stylistic corner for the last 15 years are "more supreme" than jazz players, it's okay for you to say that bands that play nothing but stylistic cliches have more going for them than music that has changed the way that people think, act and react to things around them. No, it's not. I take that personally. Mingus, Blakey, Trane, Eddie Harris, Wayne Shorter, Bill Evans, Herbie Hancock...these guys are the soundtrack to my life, the inspiration for my playing, my writing, my view on the world. And you have the gall to tell me that some screaming maniac with his amp on 11 is better in any way shape or form? How dare you?! If you don't want personal attacks, don't make them. When you knock jazz, as far as I'm concerned, it's personal. Not to mention, you may have whined about the mullet and the dungeons and dragons quip, but you didn't deny it...

okay here is your big chance : I want you to recomend me some jazz and not some lame stuff but the extremest and the best that you know of. I will download all that I can get hold of. Ok? Name indivudual songs if possible.

The jazz I have heard sofar even extremely advanced stuff like Holdsworth have been pretty easy for me to get into. I found it much harder to get into Gorguts & Cynic for example. Especially gorguts since in the beginning that music really is impossible for the brain to cope with, gorguts music can evacuate any part in less then 20 seconds. Not even Coltranes music could claim such a thing!

I understand that drummers who have played swing their whole life will be better at it than DM drummers. But what you fail to realise is that a DM drummer who played DM all his life does it better than a jazz drummer!

Holdsworth himself said modes are very limiting, he can ofcourse play exactly anything he wants and if he thought modes was the way to go at that time then sure why not. But according to himself he doesn't use modes alot in his solo work.

I hear force in thoose but not as much as in some DM.

I have long hair and play Drakar o Demoner which is a swedish version and I enjoy it alot. Unfortunately I only play at x-mas when I meet my old friends so it doesn't happen regular any more. You shoudl try it sometime, it involves alot of improvisation. I usually wear a black t-shirt too...

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
coypu, i like your posts. i think they're funny. but that limb you're out on is getting thinner and thinner.

i hope it doesn't snap.

sincerely,
3pointdeli

Well yours already snapped when you discussed a bands drummer that you never heard but I'm throwing you a lifeline here so take it : ------------- (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/origin-01-larvae_of_the_lie.mp3)

maybe we ought to steer the death metal discussion back to the death metal thread. it seems to be spreading unnecessarily.

just a suggestion.

thanks.

Well I wanted to talk about bass but jazzy paul was the one who went offtopic. I don't mind though, I think that threads should be allowed to live their own life. If you want to discuss bass again then pickup where we left and I will join you.

[jazzypaul]

"I understand that drummers who have played swing their whole life will be better at it than DM drummers. But what you fail to realise is that a DM drummer who played DM all his life does it better than a jazz drummer!"

Do you? Somewhere, you made the absolutely wrong comment that Countdown by Trane could be handled better by a Death Metal drummer. No, not at all. Countdown works because it is a tour de force that still contains that sense of rhythmic diversity, it swings like a mutha, and it just cooks. Give that to a death metal drummer, and those horrible sounding kick drums will ruin it. The fact that they play far too hard and too loud would destroy any sense of interplay.

Part two of this becomes as well...If Max Roach can play with as much fire and bravado on his hi-hats as Dave Lombardo can on an entire kit, don't you think that drummers of that caliber would adapt quickly to a larger set-up and just tear the place apart? Are you telling me that you honestly think that Billy Kilson or Brian Blade couldn't learn those tricks and learn how to tune their drums to sound like shit and then destroy their death metal counterparts? If you think not, you have never heard Billy Kilson, and should simply be ashamed of yourself. To be on a jazz thread knocking jazz without knowing it initmately is something to be entirely ashamed of.

Strangely enough, Coypu, you and I come from roughly similar backgrounds...I grew up listening to thrash and speed metal, for the most part, and I loved Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, MOD, SOD, Testament, Slayer, Exodus and Savatage. As a matter of fact, I still love most of those bands. But, when I was 14, I picked up this book called Stairway to Hell...the 500 greatest metal albums of all time. The first edition listed Miles Davis' Bitches Brew as #25. Subsequent editions have replaced Bitches Brew with Jack Johnson, which is an even better choice, by the way. It was after I read that that I went out and bought Bitches Brew,and my head was turned around. 13 years later, I love jazz, metal, hip hop, old school R&B, Funk and hell, even bluegrass. But just as you have said that the jazz fans need to take their blinders off, you need to take yours off too. Listen for more than volume and speed. Try listening for those stray notes that make your head jerk. Try listening for building intensity. Try listening for ebbs and flows. It's all there.

Start off with these...

Mingus...So Long Eric from Mingus at Town Hall

Blakey...Free for All from Free For All

Trane...Ascension

John Zorn...Spillane

Naked City...Naked City

There's obviously much more to listen to out there, but considering that the combined total listening time of those 5 cuts is well over 2 hours, that should be enough to keep you going for a while. Enjoy them.

[Coypu]

ok, I'll bring comments once I have had some time to listen to it.

[omar zamora]

Coypu,

Peter Kowald was German bassist. He died a couple of months ago. He was a stalwart of the European avant garde jazz and free improv scenes, especially of those artists that were associated with the FMP label. He started in the 60's, I believe, with the Global Unity Orchestra and on Peter Brotzmann's first album "For Adolphe Sax" (FMP, but recently reissued on Atavistic). Under his own name, the album 'Was Da Ist' seems to get the most praise, though I haven't heard it.

Mark Dresser is an American bassist, probably most famous for his work on Anthony Braxton's quartet from the 80's/early 90's. But he's recorded some amazing music on his own. I'm not a musician, but I've read that his mastery of extended bass technique is second to none. Except maybe...

Joelle Leandre, who is known mostly in improv and avant garde circles. Her and Dresser might be my single favorite bassists.

William Parker is a stalwart of the NYC scene, mostly centered around labels like AUM Fidelity. He's probably appeared in more recordings than any other avant garde musician I can think of. His best work, imo, is when teamed up with drummer Hamid Drake. But he's played with just about everyone.

Dominic Duval is another American mostly associated with the CIMP and Leo labels (he's just about in every CIMP release). My favorite work by him is CT/Pyramid String Quartet and also his work with Ivo Perelman on the Leo label.

All of the above play almost exclusively upright - though in some cases they're electrified.

Sorry, I don't know where you could find mp3s, though you might be able to find some here http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/

[Coypu]

I only found stuff on Peter Kowald, his bassplaying was however wild and very amazing. It was easy to see his passion for music in his playing. I rarely see or listen to double bass so it was nice to get in touch with again (I used to play it). I do however think that when you play fast fingerplay on double bass the sound it creates just doesn't match to bass when it comes to speed and cleanless so it seems abit of a waste of talent when guys like this play fast stuff. But still very nice.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Coypu
II do however think that when you play fast fingerplay on double bass the sound it creates just doesn't match to bass when it comes to speed and cleanless so it seems abit of a waste of talent when guys like this play fast stuff. But still very nice.

For the kind of music these guys play, I can't imagine using an electric bass. The sound just doesn't fit well in most cases - though there are exceptions. I dunno what 'fast fingerplay' means (sorry, not a musician), but these guys (and gal) have mastered their instrument and gotten a lot out of it. Also, they play a lot of arco. Most of these guys have also been documented extensively in solo settings

I know you like loud and fast, so you might want to check out the aforementioned "For Adolphe Sax".

Other guys that come to mind: Dave Holland, Charles Mingus, Henri Texier, Kent Kessler, Sirone, Simon H. Fell, and the aforementioned Guy, Rogers, Helias, and Lindberg.

For more descriptions, just go to www.allmusic.com

[Coypu]

Originally posted by omar zamora
For the kind of music these guys play, I can't imagine using an electric bass. The sound just doesn't fit well in most cases - though there are exceptions. I dunno what 'fast fingerplay' means (sorry, not a musician), but these guys (and gal) have mastered their instrument and gotten a lot out of it. Also, they play a lot of arco. Most of these guys have also been documented extensively in solo settings

I know you like loud and fast, so you might want to check out the aforementioned "For Adolphe Sax".

Other guys that come to mind: Dave Holland, Charles Mingus, Henri Texier, Kent Kessler, Sirone, Simon H. Fell, and the aforementioned Guy, Rogers, Helias, and Lindberg.

For more descriptions, just go to www.allmusic.com

Well they are masters and I guess double bass works better for some music, it's all good as long as the bassplayer is creative. I'll check out theese guys as soon as I can, I actually just listened to Dave Holland 10 min ago and it was pretty neat stuff.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
"I understand that drummers who have played swing their whole life will be better at it than DM drummers. But what you fail to realise is that a DM drummer who played DM all his life does it better than a jazz drummer!"

Do you? Somewhere, you made the absolutely wrong comment that Countdown by Trane could be handled better by a Death Metal drummer. No, not at all. Countdown works because it is a tour de force that still contains that sense of rhythmic diversity, it swings like a mutha, and it just cooks. Give that to a death metal drummer, and those horrible sounding kick drums will ruin it. The fact that they play far too hard and too loud would destroy any sense of interplay.

Part two of this becomes as well...If Max Roach can play with as much fire and bravado on his hi-hats as Dave Lombardo can on an entire kit, don't you think that drummers of that caliber would adapt quickly to a larger set-up and just tear the place apart? Are you telling me that you honestly think that Billy Kilson or Brian Blade couldn't learn those tricks and learn how to tune their drums to sound like shit and then destroy their death metal counterparts? If you think not, you have never heard Billy Kilson, and should simply be ashamed of yourself. To be on a jazz thread knocking jazz without knowing it initmately is something to be entirely ashamed of.

Strangely enough, Coypu, you and I come from roughly similar backgrounds...I grew up listening to thrash and speed metal, for the most part, and I loved Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, MOD, SOD, Testament, Slayer, Exodus and Savatage. As a matter of fact, I still love most of those bands. But, when I was 14, I picked up this book called Stairway to Hell...the 500 greatest metal albums of all time. The first edition listed Miles Davis' Bitches Brew as #25. Subsequent editions have replaced Bitches Brew with Jack Johnson, which is an even better choice, by the way. It was after I read that that I went out and bought Bitches Brew,and my head was turned around. 13 years later, I love jazz, metal, hip hop, old school R&B, Funk and hell, even bluegrass. But just as you have said that the jazz fans need to take their blinders off, you need to take yours off too. Listen for more than volume and speed. Try listening for those stray notes that make your head jerk. Try listening for building intensity. Try listening for ebbs and flows. It's all there.

Start off with these...

Mingus...So Long Eric from Mingus at Town Hall

Blakey...Free for All from Free For All

Trane...Ascension

John Zorn...Spillane

Naked City...Naked City

There's obviously much more to listen to out there, but considering that the combined total listening time of those 5 cuts is well over 2 hours, that should be enough to keep you going for a while. Enjoy them.


I have a hard time to find mp3's, do you by any chance have this stuff in mp3 form that you could send?

I just got 13 coltrane albums though so that bit is covered for now.

[jazzypaul]

I'm sorry, I don't. I do have ethical qualms with downloading music that is readily available and in print. That's just me though. And as far as John Zorn and Naked City (another Zorn project) trust me, it's out there. Zorn fans are largely fetishists. Of course, considering how much trash you've talked about acoustic jazz (and the Britney Spears/Charles Mingus remark) you OWE these estates a small bit of cash anyway. Download the metal bands instead. It's the least you can do.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I'm sorry, I don't. I do have ethical qualms with downloading music that is readily available and in print. That's just me though. And as far as John Zorn and Naked City (another Zorn project) trust me, it's out there. Zorn fans are largely fetishists. Of course, considering how much trash you've talked about acoustic jazz (and the Britney Spears/Charles Mingus remark) you OWE these estates a small bit of cash anyway. Download the metal bands instead. It's the least you can do.

I only buy the cd's of my favorite artists. If I had bought all the albums that I have downloaded I would live on the street in a paper box as a house. I have to pay the rent unfortunately.

[mother of invention]

A great bass player who plays both acoustic and electric is Alex Blake who has worked with Dizzy, Manhattan Transfer, Randy Weston, Billy Cobham,Mc Coy Tyner and many others.

[Karl]

Wow, a thread about bass players :)

Well, I'm a bass player, you know? (Some of you guys are, too, right?)

I've heard you complainig about deathmetal & jazz and speed and jazz and whatever. And, personally it isn't like i could tell you a hundred jazz players (drummers and elec-bass players) that can play as fast as these hardcore-metal freaks do, it's like i could tell you no decent jazz player that could not (including myself).

I'm wonderin why no one has mentioned jaco already. No slapping, ever, not even on the fretted, but groovy, all the time and though not keeping it down to earth in any way.
I've heard some tunes with Vic Wooten and Steve Bailey playing together. Technically impressing (getting less impressing the more of it i am able to play myself, but when i first heard it it did impress me). Musically ... well, jazz and not bad jazz but nothing special, IMO. But performed on electric bass, that might be something special.

I'm just wondering what in your opinion makes a good electric bass player in jazz. Its not playing fast (then I'd be a good player already) and before you can truely groove you shouldnt call yourself a bass player. But what is the thing that makes the difference (consider backing & soloing)?

[lone_wolf]

The lengthy argument about death metal vs. jazz actually predates the server crash, and I don't want to revive that myself, but this thread is as good a place as any to discuss bassists in general.

Victor Wooten is very effective with Bela Fleck on the Live at the Quick DVD; his solo version of Amazing Grace is pretty amazing.

Apparently, he also runs a bass workshop/nature camp.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005YUNL.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg http://www.victorwooten.com/basscamp/2002/2002Gallery/wed/P0004849.jpg

Victor seems to know what makes a good jazz electric bass player, it's certainly true that it's not just about playing fast. It's about playing fast, at the right moments, without losing the groove.

[six string]

Have any of these posters heard of Charlie Haden? Here's a man with technique. What about Dave Holland? I suppose I'm old, but I don't need a 200bpm solo to impress me. Show me some melody, show me some tone, show me some thought beyond what I've been practicising for the last two weeks.
To be honest, I haven't heard all of the people mentioned in this thread, but the ones that I have heard (live) i.e. David Bromberg, leave me cold. 200, 300, 400 bpm, whatever. Say something with your instrument besides "I've been playing the same thing over and over for the last six months and I want to share it with you."

[Grub]

I'm disappointed to see that some posts here have gone down the route of 'who's the fastest' as if that's all that matters. you get enough of that on several guitar forums out there.

someone here reckoned Les Claypool wasnt that original and took his ideas of better players. as a bass player of several summers myself I reckon Claypool's to be one of the most inventive players to come along since Clarke and Pastorius. for jaw droppingness it's gotta be Bill Dickins. just check out his solos on the live 'Snap crackle and pop' with Neil Zaza and Bobby Rock.

toppermost of all time in my book is Larry Graham who was out there before Jaco and Stan. much respect is also due to Louis Johnson.

[Karl]

What makes a good bass player, my opinion:

- standing over it, technically (also meaning: not having to play fast all the time to prove he can)

- when backing, ability to stay in back while not drifting away into boredom or becoming less involved. I often see bass players that play their groovy lines as they are and that's it, no ideas, no involvement. That's not the right way, neither is trying to be the star of the night as bassist

- when soloing there should be no need to play fast to keep it interesting, phrasing and articulation should be as if he played a horn. This does not mean absolutely avoiding to play fast lines, if it fits the expression you want to make then its the right thing

Playing calm and melodic lines in back and in front is something only few bass players recognise as high level playing, but thats what makes it good, in my opinion.
If you people said there were bass players like Gary Willis hating scales I don't believe it. No one can be a good jazz bass player without using scalar lines and additions. Tonics and Triads dont always give a complete sound ... and if you want to play fast (staying in the groove, of course), where would you take the notes from then? I want to see someone playing only triads at 300 bpm on a double bass. (besides it would sound ridiculous done like this throughout)

Add and discuss that. I'd love that thing to be discussed :)

[DWBass]

I'm disappointed to see that some posts here have gone down the route of 'who's the fastest' as if that's all that matters. you get enough of that on several guitar forums out there.

Someone here reckoned Les Claypool wasnt that original and took his ideas of better players.That would be me! I personally do not find Les Claypool to be original nor innovative. Just another really good bassist. My beef with Les is regarding his use of the solo bass song 'The Awakening'! He's got quite a lot of kids/aspiring bassists thinking that he wrote the song. He needs to make it clear that he's doing a cover of a tune written and performed by "The Reddings"(Dexter Redding). Coypu was the guy who felt speed made a bassist and that Death Metal was the end all to great music. We had several all out battles and arguments before he was banned! I'm a bassist of 30+ years and he was a kid of 22 or 23 with no working knowledge of music outside Death Metal yet chose to put down Jazz in favor of Death Metal. It hit a sore spot with many folks here and if you get a chance, do a search and read those threads. Very interesting to say the least. I'm not proud of my involvement in those threads but I just could not stay silent.

[lone_wolf]

To be honest, I haven't heard all of the people mentioned in this thread, but the ones that I have heard (live) i.e. David Bromberg, leave me cold. 200, 300, 400 bpm, whatever. Say something with your instrument besides "I've been playing the same thing over and over for the last six months and I want to share it with you."

You must be thinking of Brian Bromberg, Dave's younger brother. Dave himself is a fine guitar player, though not in the jazz genre. He has played drums competently in a jazz setting, backing up his brother, but he doesn't play bass. Dave actually now runs a violin shop in Wilmington, DE, restoring and selling rare, high-quality instruments.

I agree that fast playing should not be over-emphasized. Too much fast playing is like a run-on sentence; your meaning is reduced to gibberish. However, great players play fast when it counts. It's really not that hard to play fast; what's challenging is restraining the urge and knowing when it's hip to add the flash. A quick flurry of notes in the right place is more effective than sledgehammering through a song. Unless you're playing death metal, of course.

[3pointdeli]

My beef with Les is regarding his use of the solo bass song 'The Awakening'! He's got quite a lot of kids/aspiring bassists thinking that he wrote the song. He needs to make it clear that he's doing a cover of a tune written and performed by "The Reddings"(Dexter Redding).

primus has put out two cds of cover songs (maybe more...i stopped paying attention long ago). i don't think people assume he wrote everything he plays. certainly his fans don't. it's well known that they do lots of cover songs. and why should he have to make such a disclaimer when it is common practice for jazz musicians to play standards (and more obscure cover tunes)without "making it clear" who wrote them?

[Sam]

Dave Bromberg . . . is a fine guitar player, though not in the jazz genre. He has played drums competently in a jazz setting, backing up his brother, but he doesn't play bass. Dave actually now runs a violin shop in Wilmington, DE, restoring and selling rare, high-quality instruments.

I always assumed that the guitarist/raconteur/luthier and avant-garde-drummer-who-sometimes-plays-with-Brian were two different people with similar names.

[lone_wolf]

I always assumed that the guitarist/raconteur/luthier and avant-garde-drummer-who-sometimes-plays-with-Brian were two different people with similar names.

No other Dave Bromberg comes up in the All Music Guide or Google, but who knows? I'd head down to his shop myself to ask him, since it's only about 10 minutes away from me, but from his tour schedule, it looks like he's out West until mid-September, when he has a show scheduled at the Grand Opera House in Wilmington.

[Grub]

A distinction should be made between great (technical)bass playing and great basslines. There's a lot of technically excellent playing to be found on a lot of jazz, metal, fusion and funk toons but much of of what is being done is not that memorable. Think about the most memorable classic basslines and more often than not they're relatively simple e.g 'Peaches' (Stranglers), 'Money' (Pink Floyd), 'The chain' (Fleetwood Mac), 'Ball of confusion' (Temptations). If I were a pro bass player I'd much rather be remembered as the guy who wrote and played classic but quite simple basslines that everyone knows than someone like Victor Wootten or Bill Dickins who most people have never heard of. :dill:

[Karl]

Well, "writing" basslines is not it, one must be over and over inventing them, to fit the day and the second.

Miles once said, asked to play the Kind of Blue-Sessions live again: "That music is gone, it's over. This music is never going to happen again." Thats how Miles thought, and played: the only think that stays is the continuum of time, jazz is only relevant with when its played. And I dont only talk of periods, years or what, i mean listen to his solos, nothing is going to happen twice. he might play exactly the same notes with exactly the same rhytmisation but that doesnt make it be the same as the first one. That's an important deal if you want to understand philosophy of jazz music. And this philosophy makes me never write down a bassline, unless its part of the melody but even then i use to change it, to bend it to fit the second i play it in.

When writing pieces with my quartet we use to get ~2 mins of 'arranged' part onto one line. So it has to be different every day, and that makes it great music, great fun.

[DWBass]

primus has put out two cds of cover songs (maybe more...i stopped paying attention long ago). i don't think people assume he wrote everything he plays. certainly his fans don't. it's well known that they do lots of cover songs. and why should he have to make such a disclaimer when it is common practice for jazz musicians to play standards (and more obscure cover tunes)without "making it clear" who wrote them?Well let me clarify. I frequent several bass related forums and every kid who mentions that song truly has no idea that Les didn't write it!! In fact when I tell them the truth, they're really suprised by the info! I just don't like the fact that that tune, which he used to do as a featured solo at concerts, never gets credited to the 'real' writers. In any case, it's neither here nor there. Bottom line is, Les does nothing for me musically and he plays a really ugly Carl Thompson bass! :)

[jeffreyburr]

One of my favorites, and possibly the most underappreciated bassist in jazz: Israel Crosby!!! Of Ahmad Jamal trio fame. He got away from root-five-root-five and instead made lines Bach woulda dug, melodic in their own right you know. Yay.

[Karl]

Well, root - fifth - root - fifth ... that was looong ago :)
but good and harmonically strong even 8ths-lines are something seen not to often, but souncing very good.
Esbjörn Svensson has something like that on "Strange Place for Snow", a piece called: "When God Created the Coffeebreak" starts with a bass/pno unis. line that is really reminding on Bach. And that piece is grooving like hell :D

[NewJazz4Mike]

Is this thread serious? :confused2 If we're talking jazz bassists, we should start with some of the best that are playing these days. The state of the bass seems as exciting today as ever. Want to get excited... go to a live show, watch and listen to the mgic of Scott Colley, Peter Washington, or Ben Allison. Three rather diverse, very imaginative, highly skilled players. This is the real state of the jazz bass. Some of the names in this thread... sheesh! Oh, and of course, Dave Holland, but he's been so excellent for so many years now, that it's almost boring and unnecessary to mention him. :lol:

[joesilver]

I'm curious about whatever happened to Jeff Andrews, the bassist who played brilliantly in the '80s with Michael Brecker, Mike Stern, and Vital Information. I saw him perform at the now-defunct Visiones in New York in an unusual two-bass quartet with Harvie Swartz (now known as Harvie S.), and a trombonist and drummer, neither of whose names can I now recall. Andrews had loads of technique, as well as taste, harmonic knowledge, good tone, and a great jazz feel.

I felt at the time that this was a player who had the potential to bring long-overdue legitimacy and respectibility to the electric bass in (for lack of a better term) "straight ahead" jazz. And then he apparently disappeared from the music scene. Anyone know what, if anything, Jeff Andrews is up to these days?

[DWBass]

I'm curious about whatever happened to Jeff Andrews, the bassist who played brilliantly in the '80s with Michael Brecker, Mike Stern, and Vital Information. I saw him perform at the now-defunct Visiones in New York in an unusual two-bass quartet with Harvie Swartz (now known as Harvie S.), and a trombonist and drummer, neither of whose names can I now recall. Andrews had loads of technique, as well as taste, harmonic knowledge, good tone, and a great jazz feel.

I felt at the time that this was a player who had the potential to bring long-overdue legitimacy and respectibility to the electric bass in (for lack of a better term) "straight ahead" jazz. And then he apparently disappeared from the music scene. Anyone know what, if anything, Jeff Andrews is up to these days?I guess he got tired of being on the road. A lot of cats get to that stage where they just don't want to travel all the time and just want to settle on a good local gig and make a decent living. He's definitely one of the best bassists I've heard. Very tasteful playing. I akin his style to Nathan East. They both play exactly what is needed without the need to overplay and show off their virtuosity!

[six string]

This thread got buried some how and I missed it to respond to my mistake about the Brombergs. Yes, it was Brian and not David that I was speaking about (of course). I saw him with Gonzalo Rubalcaba and Tony Williams many years ago at Yoshi's. I was pretty exhausted mentally after that show.
I had never heard of Brian prior to that show, so I didn't go in with any preconceived ideas about him, but I found his solos to be boring but full of technique.

[lone_wolf]

It's pretty hard to stand-out between Gonzalo R. and Tony Williams. Scott Yanow of AMG was pretty complimentary of Brian's playing, but I guess his style's not for every taste. What does Scott know about jazz anyway? :)

Biography by Scott Yanow

A very versatile acoustic and electric bassist capable of playing straight-ahead jazz, funk, and fusion, Brian Bromberg is also one of the few bassists to master the tapping technique made famous by Stanley Jordan, sometimes sounding like three bassists at once during his often-thunderous solos. Although he was a drummer at the age of 13, the folowing year Bromberg started classical lessons on bass. He developed quickly and by the time he was 19, he was part of Stan Getz's group. Bromberg has been a valuable sidemen with many bands since including those led by Horace Silver, Monty Alexander, Dizzy Gillespie, Richie Cole, Lee Ritenour, Dave Grusin, and Freddie Hubbard. He recorded his first album as a leader in 1986 (A New Day for the Blackhawk label) and has since led sessions for Intima and Nova; unfortunately, all of those record companies have since gone out of business. Brian Bromberg into the next century remained one of the most underrated bassists in jazz.

I like It's About Time (the Acoustic Project), probably his best recorded set, with multi-talented brother Dave on drums.

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd600/d698/d69887a9jfh.jpg

[six string]

Ah, that's what it was. The tapping thing is what made him sound so busy and "thunderous." It sounded like his strings were really close to the neck too. Is that necessary for the tapping technique? Don't get me wrong. I didn't hate the show, but it was a very busy one and something I've decided I don't really enjoy anymore. I was so relieved when Gonzalo kept cool during the Nocturne tour with Charlie Haden and played beautiful understated piano. There were people in the audience who were obviously waiting for him to blast off, but he didn't. Now Charlie Haden, that's a bass player for my taste these days.

[lone_wolf]

I agree with you, six-string. The tapping technique is often more visually impressive than musically satisfying. I listen to a lot more Charlie Haden myself these days. He's a more mature player, of course, and as a bandleader, he's seems more attuned to the overall musicality of the end product rather than in showing off his own chops.

"Haunted Heart" is one set I haven't tired of after repeated listening.

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd800/d835/d83559wy6c7.jpg

[DWBass]

I agree with you, six-string. The tapping technique is often more visually impressive than musically satisfying.I totally disagree with this statement (If it was meant as a blanket statement in regards to all bassists who play in this style).

Maybe it's more a personal choice for you that the style does nothing for you. There are quite a lot of very tasteful players out there utilizing the 'tapping' technique and making beautiful music (Victor Wooten for one). I do agree though that some players do use it as flash and make non musical noise so to speak! Brian Bromberg's 'Jaco' cd and his acoustic work are terrific. The bassists of today are so virtuostic and technically out of this world that some forget how to make real music.