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View Full Version : Wynton Marsalis entry in Grove dictionary(hypothetical)


Pharaohrock
January 13th, 2003, 05:27 PM
Okay, a Wynton thread is too obvious but at the same time, I think this is a stimulating idea- how Wynton will be noted in the Grove dictionary of Jazz 50 years from now. Some of this seems quite reasonable, but be forewarned there are some really pointed barbs also....btw this is from the site www.birdlives.com, by Steve Hahn.

Marsalis, Wynton

Fiery and controversial trumpeter/leader who borrowed liberally from earlier styles; educator; personality of late 20th and early 21st century. Came to attention as a member of one of Art Blakey’s last bands where he garnered as much attention for his wardrobe as for his playing. Became flagship artist for revived Columbia Jazz label from 1982 on with small group recordings that sold relatively well and introduced a host of smartly dressed young acolytes who were soon to be given their own recording contracts. From his 20s on Marsalis was represented by the media as a spokesman for a new generation of players and freely courted controversy with his opinions on the state of jazz and the value of specific practitioners. His elevated profile led to radio and television program hosting opportunities and ultimately, to the musical directorship of the Lincoln Center Jazz programs. Marsalis founded the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra as a vehicle for jazz repertory and toured extensively with studied performances of music by such masters as Ellington and Monk. The orchestra was staffed principally with Marsalis’ young associates who were criticized for their inexperience and lack of personality. Marsalis grudgingly added some older players over time but, aside from the warm embrace of university concert producers counting on his "name brand," never found much acceptance among the critical establishment.

Ironically, given his successful record with the Columbia label, Marsalis is credited with bankrupting its jazz division with his ambitious "Swinging into the 21st Century" recording project which released 8 compact discs on a monthly schedule leading up to the year 2000. Stocks of unsold compact discs were so huge that copies of "Big Train" could be found in retail cut-out bins over ten years after its release. In order to save face, Columbia parent Sony announced that it would henceforth "concentrate on documenting the wealth of creative Japanese jazz musicians who are advancing this international art form." While other members of the Marsalis family returned to piano bar gigs in their native New Orleans, Wynton continued to maintain a national presence of sorts. In his later career, still musical director of Lincoln Center, Marsalis instituted a new philosophy of repertory performance, declaring "We’ve got to get this music out of the musty concert halls and out into the fresh sea air." To that end, the Permanent Floating Jazz Festival of 2034 through 2048 featured the LCJO in note-perfect recreations of nearly forgotten mid-century (20th) players like Peanuts Hucko and Eddie Condon and spawned multiple road companies to take advantage of the proliferating cruise line business.

As a composer, Marsalis’ efforts were mostly derivative of his idols - Duke Ellington in the jazz realm and Igor Stravinsky in the classical. Early in his career much was made of Marsalis’ facility in both musical worlds and the novelty of a young African-American man playing the Haydn Concerto one night and hot jazz the next was the foundation of a clever marketing campaign. His later music for various dance companies was essentially motivated by arts funders eager to capture the elusive "crossover" audience and consisted of a pastiche of pseudo-Americana and jazz influences. The fact that neither niche cared for the music of the other diluted its impact, but among mass audiences whose interest in either music was casual, Marsalis was esteemed as a musician who could do it all.

Throughout his long career, self-appointed cultural commentator Stanley Crouch played Boswell to Marsalis’ Samuel Johnson, divining his motives, attacking his critics and incessantly promoting his reputation. Crouch, fittingly, succumbed to a fatal stroke in 2007 upon the announcement that trumpeter Dave Douglas, a musician he disdained, had been given a Pulitzer Prize. One mystery that Marsalis took to the grave was the source of his unaccountably raspy voice and the pronounced New Orleans accent that none of his family shared. Whether this was an affectation adopted (did Crouch have a role here?) to buttress his public image as a musician who sprang from the same roots as Louis Armstrong we can never know.

So what’s missing from this assessment? Stylist, innovator, founder of a new movement, singular sound on his instrument? None of these qualities are likely to be cited by future critics. Marsalis will not be known as the Dizzy Gillespie, the Miles Davis, or the Freddie Hubbard of his generation. Far from "most gifted" and "most sophisticated musician of his generation," he will be remembered as an educator, a popularizer, a figurehead for the cause of jazz, which is no mean accomplishment. If anything, Wynton Marsalis will be known as the Billy Taylor of his generation.
Marsalis, Wynton

bombastic
January 13th, 2003, 10:19 PM
but i respect his musicianship. anyone who can play a trumpet that well deserves respect. his music is usually painfully populist from what i understand, although someone told me his vanguard box set is good listening.....billy taylor i've got nothing against, god bless a guy who can bring jazz to more humans.:cool:

Pharaohrock
January 14th, 2003, 09:34 PM
Wynton has great command over the trumpet. Command is and having a big bag of tricks is very different from being able to express yourself musically in a "great" way though. For example, I've never heard him play anything resembling a "classic" solo. His better solos come across as too damned methodical and preconceived for my tastes. Part of me actually wonders if Wynton rehearses some of his solos in advance.

jazzypaul
January 16th, 2003, 11:54 AM
Pharoarock, check out Wynton's solo on Sister Cheryl on his first record. I can hum that entire solo to you. It's a high water mark in his career, and it doesn't really seem methodical at all. He just starts with a variation on the melody and lets if all fly from there. For sheer emotive response, Branford destroys him on soprano a couple of minutes later, but that Wynton solo IS beautiful.

Jazz
January 16th, 2003, 05:36 PM
I'm going to step out on a limb here, because I actually haven't listened to a ton of Wynton but..

I think he's pretty good. I don't understand exactly why people criticize his music, I do know that his views on jazz are somewhat controversial. It seems like people are mostly angry at him for not trying to move the genre forward, but he's more of a storyteller. He understands all the old styles to a t, and he's virtuosic at them from what I've heard. It is my opinion that no jazz musician can move the style forward without mastering both hot jazz and straight ahead first, and people like Wynton would be where people would learn the foundation of jazz.

Pharaohrock
January 16th, 2003, 08:37 PM
Yes, I can admit I actually enjoy some of Wynton's solos that came early in his career. That was when he was coming out of Freddie and Miles and there was some COHESION in what he was doing. What happened since then? Well, he tried to conquer jazz history, and any voice he had got diffused all over the place. Add to that that he was, as you suggest, never much of an emotive player, and you've got a human sampling machine of a trumpet player.

Jazz
January 16th, 2003, 09:18 PM
I don't mean to sound like a complete dope, but what's emotive mean?

Pharaohrock
January 16th, 2003, 09:52 PM
being able to express emotion, lending an emotional quality to-

Jazz
January 16th, 2003, 10:06 PM
aaaahhh! Thanks!

Well, my opinion is that Wynton can express emotion pretty well, from the stuff I've heard. But I think I agree I wouldn't cite him as a key figure in the development of jazz. I would call him a key player though...

markvi
January 17th, 2003, 07:54 AM
i watched wynton at an essentially ellington workshop for music educators work with a high school jazz band. he is an incredibly good educator. he got things out of that band i didn't think were possible in only about 45 minutes of instruction. also he is at least keeping jazz alive at lincoln center, the most important cultural institution in the united states. that's more than can be said for carnegie hall and any other serious music venue outside of the jazz world that i know of. i don't care for his compositions, his playing is occassionally pretty good, but he is still in there keeping jazz alive whether people like the style he cultivates or not. keeping all forms of jazz alive is important and wynton is keeping it in the forefront at lincoln center.

3pointdeli
January 17th, 2003, 08:46 AM
i'm not trying to be argumentative here, but...

"he is at least keeping jazz alive at lincoln center"

people say this a lot. i think it's more accurate to say that what he's doing is trying to turn the past (or the things he likes about the past) into the present. i don't think he's keeping jazz alive any more than the louvre is keeping leonardo da vinci alive.

he does seem to have a way of getting what he wants out of people. i wouldn't equate that with being a good educator. good leader? perhaps, but he would never encourage anyone to think outside of his agenda and blaze their own trail in music.

on a related note, did you hear that coca-cola has donated $10 million to jazz at lincoln center and will be opening a club called "dizzy's club coca cola"? so crass. one more reason to be ashamed to be an atlantan.

Pharaohrock
January 17th, 2003, 01:19 PM
no, wynton's a good educator. i've seen him in action- it's not simply leadership like a coach giving a pep talk....he's a genuinely effective communicator of musical ideas. although i seldom any of his music in my home, i would definitely welcome his educational video series on music for my children (someday.)

i agree with 3ptdeli that W. is keeping jazz alive only insofar as it is a repertory music, but would make a distinction that jazz is still a "living" repertory music. people just shouldn't get the idea that duke ellington's suites are what jazz means in the 21st century. but does Jazz@lincoln center really try to promote itself as a progressive institution anyway??

3pointdeli
January 17th, 2003, 01:36 PM
i attended one of wynton's lectures several years ago and i've seen him on tv numerous times (both as a performer and as an educator.) i'll say this about him: he is good at making exciting things from the past sound exciting. for instance, his commentary during the monk segment from the ken burns jazz film was right on the money. he has charisma, no doubt. however, i have yet to see him do what i think all good educators do: cultivate your talents and skills and then set you free to make your own way in the world. this is something that art blakey did so incredibly well (look at the list of alumni from the jazz messengers...it's mind boggling), but i don't feel like wynton has done that. wynton has dropped his anchor in traditional jazz and all the education he offers is for the purpose of keeping jazz where it once was, not for moving it forward. i've always been taught that jazz is a progressive music, therefore i feel like wynton (or wynford, haha) is doing for jazz what your average symphony does for classical: keeps it frozen in time.

Pharaohrock
January 17th, 2003, 02:01 PM
careful man, i think paul is a branford fan and paul is a cool guy. this site has been very peacable and i'd like to see it stay that way.

i take your point though about wynton educating people how to remain in the past more than how to find your own voice. i think the sad thing is that wynton may not actually see a "future" with jazz anyway. he made some very bizarre statements about how he thought soloing was going to die off and this would be a perfectly appropriate development. what is jazz then? chamber music with horns and a stand-up bass? i wouldn't be surprised if in all of wynton's musical conservatism he is, after all, deeply pessimistic about the future. of course that may just be my bias fueling wild speculation...

3pointdeli
January 17th, 2003, 02:11 PM
"careful man, i think paul is a branford fan and paul is a cool guy. this site has been very peacable and i'd like to see it stay that way."

my post was in no way meant to be inflammatory or to start an argument (i didn't think i even mentioned branford, by the way.) if we were only allowed to agree with each other, then this bbs would be worthless. i respect all your opinions, but i insist on being able to state my own.

please don't think i'm trying to do anything more than participate in the discussion.

Pharaohrock
January 17th, 2003, 02:28 PM
maybe i took it too literally. "wynford"appears to be an implication that you think both of them are pretty much interchangeable, with the same basic traits and views. and we ALL know that Branford is supposed to be the progressive one right? lol. actually, i love the way people have tried to create this brotherly drama between them like the good twin and the evil twin...lol. it warrants coverage in the globe if you ask me.

3pointdeli
January 17th, 2003, 02:30 PM
i said "wynford" because i saw that someone said that earlier and i thought it was a humorous error. no harm intended.

i'm out of here for the weekend...enjoy your MLK day! PEACE!