I just got Sean Malones new album Emergent [Archive]

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 11:27 AM

"I know what it takes to improvise basslines like thoose since I'm currently studuing just that right now. THe problem is that he just uses a smooth approach while a bassplayer like Gary Willis or Jeff Berlin would know to variate them more using more jagged intervals and arpeggios and also to use rhythmns more effectfully by not playing so straight all the time"

You do realize that using arpeggios would kill any sense of groove in the tune, right? What point is there in doing something technical if it does not serve the song? And speaking of intervallic playing, the key again, is not to play intervals because you can, but rather to play intervals that serve the soloist that A BASS PLAYER SUPPORTS! What made PC such a great bassplayer was that he so obviously had it all together and still had the taste to know when NOT to use it. All of the best music in any genre, all grooves like a mutha. Name it, rock? Led Zeppelin, The Rolling Stones, Cream, Hendrix, Phish, Steely Dan, etc. Funk? James Brown, Funkadelic, The Ohio Players, Kool & The Gang (before that fruit came in and started singing Celebration). Blues? Muddy Waters, Bo Diddley, Willie Dixon, Albert King, BB King, Robert Cray. Even in Metal, Rob Zombie, Anthrax, Slayer and old school Metallica, could all ride a great groove for all it was worth when the mood struck them. So it isn't just jazz that is "smooth." in that sense. Play for the song, not for the ego. I think I might have just tapped into Coypu's major musical flaw here.

2) so list off 10 "stolen" straight ahead classics then...

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 12:04 PM

Well dig up the song Boat Gig by Tribal Tech. Listen to Gary Willis in that song, he stay in the box all the time but his basslines still better and more varied than PC's. So when gary willis ended up with a virtous like Holdsworth it kicked more ass than Coltrane with PC.

Imagine Road Games bassline played by PC instead of Jeff Berlin... It would not be as good.

Ok, let us use Metallica as an example, Cliff Burton was pretty great despite his awful tone but compared to Roger Patterson in Atheist he just doesn't match up. Same thing here, coltrane against Holdsworth, music has evolved and you of all people should know it.

2) straight ahead classics? Like straight jazz or does any classics go? what do you mean?

Jazz

January 16th, 2003, 12:16 PM

Man I can't believe how much Sean Malone sucks. He should play more jazz. I mean he's okay (sort of) but he needs to learn from the wisdom of jazz before he can go any further in his music.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
Man I can't believe how much Sean Malone sucks. He should play more jazz. I mean he's okay (sort of) but he needs to learn from the wisdom of jazz before he can go any further in his music.

how do you motivate this exactly? What is it that you don't like?

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 12:39 PM

"Well dig up the song Boat Gig by Tribal Tech. Listen to Gary Willis in that song, he stay in the box all the time but his basslines still better and more varied than PC's. So when gary willis ended up with a virtous like Holdsworth it kicked more ass than Coltrane with PC."

Wow, you're dense. Put Gary Willis in a straight ahead situation and see what he plays. I guarantee you, he will tell you that he could not have improved upon what PC laid down.

Again, Holdsworth is a subjective matter, and more than most. Yeah, he's a master of his instrument, and yeah, from a technical standpoint, it will be at least another 40 or 50 years before anyone catches up to him. But, let's face it, Holdsworth is a rock player at heart, not a jazz player. Fusion is not jazz. Ask Herbie, or Chick or Freddie Hubbard. All artists who played fusion, and now stay as far astray of fusion as they can. I am not doubting, nor have I ever doubted the talent of Tribal Tech. They're a great band. They're just not a great jazz band.

"Same thing here, coltrane against Holdsworth, music has evolved and you of all people should know it."

And jazz has evolved too, and PC is still considered a hero on par with Pettiford, Mingus or Garrison. Feeling the need to call PC sloppy is like calling The Beatles old fashioned or like calling Monet primitive. The problem is, you want jazz to become something that it shouldn't have to stoop to. Jazz is a phenomenal music, and all of those musicians that I keep listing are all signs of that, that it is evolving, and that mutating it with a music that DOES NOT GROOVE would only bring it down. Why do you not understand that?

for your second question, straight ahead jazz classics, like...

Straight No Chaser, by Thelonious Monk

Speak No Evil, by Wayne Shorter

Haitian Fight Song, by Charles Mingus

Decision, by Sonny Rollins

Bohemia After Dark, by Cannonball Adderley

Avila and Tequila, by Hank Mobley

These are examples of straight ahead classics. Something of this caliber. Not fusion. Fusion is not jazz. If fusion is jazz, then they'd better start putting Steely Dan in the jazz section, and soon.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 01:02 PM

Well Gary Willis would play straight in a straight situation, Countdown is however a song that has plenty of room to non straight play. Same thing with Giant Steps, Giant Steps allows far more advanced bassplay without it would sound out of place. I do however know how hard it is to improvise over that song so there are only a few players who could pull it off well like Willis for example.

Well, holdsworth and Tribal Tech are not jazz bands so they can't be called good jazz bands in that view. They are however part of jazz and if you freeze them out and call them something else then we all of a sudden have a very fun position. Since if you do that then the superiority of jazz suddenly loses all value. Not even Coltrane and his crew can keep up with Holdsworth when he and his folks are in shape. So jazz Fusion is the stuff I want to mix with death metal, sorry that I said jazz before, I was wrong.

I'm serious now Paul, I honestly don't want jazz into DM, I want fusion so you where right from the start. I admit my mistake and I hope that you accept my apologies. I still haven't given up on jazz, I have been tripping on coltrane for a while now so the genre have potential. But I think that Bop is my thing, straight jazz just doesn't do it for me. Could you recomend the best of the 'sick' stuff?

I never called PC sloppy, he is not sloppy as far as I can hear. But his basslines are however not the best I have run across.

Jazz

January 16th, 2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
how do you motivate this exactly? What is it that you don't like?

I don't know it just doesn't have the same "oomph", the same drive I guess as alot of straight ahead jazz. That song Controversy for example: there was no quarter note bassline. I think that a quarter note bassline really drives a song, and I think Controversy lacked that. There were no horns, I don't think it sounded jazzy enough because of that. Alot of the notes they played didn't sound like jazz notes. I didn't think the drummer was as good as say, the drummer from the Mingus Big Band. But other than that it was okay, I have heard worse stuff.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
I don't know it just doesn't have the same "oomph", the same drive I guess as alot of straight ahead jazz. That song Controversy for example: there was no quarter note bassline. I think that a quarter note bassline really drives a song, and I think Controversy lacked that. There were no horns, I don't think it sounded jazzy enough because of that. Alot of the notes they played didn't sound like jazz notes. I didn't think the drummer was as good as say, the drummer from the Mingus Big Band. But other than that it was okay, I have heard worse stuff.

Oboy, you should here the drummer when he plays technical death metal or fusion. He is super good actually, jazz may not be his ace but he gets the job done pretty well and it's not like Coltrane had a better drummer for example.

At the middle of the song Sean plays a typical straight and smooth bass line and if you listen closely during the bass solo you will hear that he plays over another basslines that lies very low in the mix that also is a smooth line. This music is however "technical" and also written by a bassplayer so the music is very bassdriven and not typical straight jazz. I really don't think that he sucks as you put it. If he sucks then what on earth doesn't most jazzplayers do? There are maybe 10 bassplayers who are equals to Sean, but I don't think that anyone of thoose also is a chapman stick master nor master composer in classical music, fusion, death metal, rock, pop or proggressive rock/metal.

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 01:33 PM

1) why is it all about technical prowess? yes, you need technical facility, but after you get to some certain point (which I am nowhere near) it all just becomes superfluous. Kinda like Yngwie Malmsteen. As much as I want Terry Bozzio's chops, If I end up like Terry Bozzio in the process, then shit, I'll be more than happy to actually make music that sounds musical and be less proficient than him.

2) The superiority in jazz comes from its character. It comes from its paradoxes, its roots, its history and the immense amount of talent that it takes to play. There may be more technically superior players out there, but they'll never make something as stunning as a Giant Steps or an Ellington Sacred Work.

That list that I handed you before will get you started. Chomp into that list a little bit and tell me what you think.

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 01:47 PM

"and it's not like Coltrane had a better drummer for example."

Dude, just stop while you're ahead. A partial list of the drummers that Trane played with...

Elvin Jones: The drummer who figured out not just how to play polyrhythms, but rather how to play IN polyrhythms. Any drummer that knows anything, from Peter Erskine to Mitch Mitchell has studied Elvin the way that a preacher studies the Bible.

Art Taylor: If you're talking trash about the drummer on Countdown, then you're talking shit about this guy. Appeared with Trane on a good solid chunk of his work on Prestige. Considered in the same league as Philly Joe Jones and Max Roach, A.T. wasn't groundbreaking, but his work was solid. I consider him one of my heroes, not only for his work with Trane, but also for his work with Donald Byrd, on which he played some of the most understated and hard-grooving stuff that anyone has ever heard.

How dare you come in here talking about some punk-ass death metal trash, taint every thread that you can with your talk about music that has very little, if anything to do with jazz, and then come in here, and talk about the guys who made this music what it is today, that suffered for this music and toiled for this music.

3pointdeli

January 16th, 2003, 01:49 PM

"jazz may not be his ace but he gets the job done pretty well and it's not like Coltrane had a better drummer for example."

there we have it folks: the stupidest comment ever made on the internet.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
1) why is it all about technical prowess? yes, you need technical facility, but after you get to some certain point (which I am nowhere near) it all just becomes superfluous. Kinda like Yngwie Malmsteen. As much as I want Terry Bozzio's chops, If I end up like Terry Bozzio in the process, then shit, I'll be more than happy to actually make music that sounds musical and be less proficient than him.

2) The superiority in jazz comes from its character. It comes from its paradoxes, its roots, its history and the immense amount of talent that it takes to play. There may be more technically superior players out there, but they'll never make something as stunning as a Giant Steps or an Ellington Sacred Work.

That list that I handed you before will get you started. Chomp into that list a little bit and tell me what you think.

1) I actually agree with you on this one, you are perfectly correct and your examples where right on the spot.

2) I don't really buy into this whole history and roots thing, the music should stand for itself in my opinon. Well Giant Steps is a song that is difficult for the sake of being difficult but it's still cool though. I do however think that new stunning things happen like the milestone Water on the brain pt.2 for example. I do however think that technicality is only one key to a larger truth, Sean Malone for example is VERY down to earth in his playing and composing. Listen to all songs on Cynic - Focus and all on the first Gordian Knot album. You can't get much more down to earth than that without playing overly simplistic. Giant Steps is however a classic just like Veil of Maya.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
"and it's not like Coltrane had a better drummer for example."

Dude, just stop while you're ahead. A partial list of the drummers that Trane played with...

Elvin Jones: The drummer who figured out not just how to play polyrhythms, but rather how to play IN polyrhythms. Any drummer that knows anything, from Peter Erskine to Mitch Mitchell has studied Elvin the way that a preacher studies the Bible.

Art Taylor: If you're talking trash about the drummer on Countdown, then you're talking shit about this guy. Appeared with Trane on a good solid chunk of his work on Prestige. Considered in the same league as Philly Joe Jones and Max Roach, A.T. wasn't groundbreaking, but his work was solid. I consider him one of my heroes, not only for his work with Trane, but also for his work with Donald Byrd, on which he played some of the most understated and hard-grooving stuff that anyone has ever heard.

How dare you come in here talking about some punk-ass death metal trash, taint every thread that you can with your talk about music that has very little, if anything to do with jazz, and then come in here, and talk about the guys who made this music what it is today, that suffered for this music and toiled for this music.

Well I was actually refering to the drummer on the Giant Steps album, I just listened to some of his later albums and the drumming where pretty good there so you guys knows what I was talking about. "Had a better drummer" refers to 1 person, "had better drummers" would had been a different story. Sorry for being abit vague in my statement.

Some guys though in prog DM are up their with their best, have you heard Morgan Ågren? He played with Zappa once actually as a guest drummer, he is very very good.

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 02:25 PM

and the drummer on most of the Giant Steps album, title track and countdown included, was Art Taylor.

Jazz

January 16th, 2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
Oboy, you should here the drummer when he plays technical death metal or fusion. He is super good actually, jazz may not be his ace but he gets the job done pretty well and it's not like Coltrane had a better drummer for example.

At the middle of the song Sean plays a typical straight and smooth bass line and if you listen closely during the bass solo you will hear that he plays over another basslines that lies very low in the mix that also is a smooth line. This music is however "technical" and also written by a bassplayer so the music is very bassdriven and not typical straight jazz. I really don't think that he sucks as you put it. If he sucks then what on earth doesn't most jazzplayers do? There are maybe 10 bassplayers who are equals to Sean, but I don't think that anyone of thoose also is a chapman stick master nor master composer in classical music, fusion, death metal, rock, pop or proggressive rock/metal.

I don't think Sean plays a good enough straight bassline. Not as good as Mingus really. I'm not trying to say that Mingus is better than him, just that he could learn how to express his music better by listening to more Mingus. I said the music was okay, its just kind of stale sounding.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
and the drummer on most of the Giant Steps album, title track and countdown included, was Art Taylor.

Do you personally think that the drumwork he did on giant steps is as good as it can get?

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 02:41 PM

"Do you personally think that the drumwork he did on giant steps is as good as it can get?"

I think that if you put Max Roach, Philly Joe, Elvin, Joe Chambers, Freddie Waits and Billy Higgins all to work on that track, they would have played similarly to what Art did. Or, better yet, I'll throw it back at you...

"what in the world would have done differently?"

Keep in mind when answering this that the tune must still swing, the drums must remain in the background and that neither shadowing the soloist or playing double bass will help this cause.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
I don't think Sean plays a good enough straight bassline. Not as good as Mingus really. I'm not trying to say that Mingus is better than him, just that he could learn how to express his music better by listening to more Mingus. I said the music was okay, its just kind of stale sounding.

Well Cortland is an early work, try listening to some Gordian Knot, the song Arsis or Grace, his bass and stick work is amazing.

Here is an Aghora song you can check out : http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/aghora%20-%20Frames.mp3

You will appreciate this guy alot more once you hear his full catalog, I have never run across who has a wider span in playing that this guy.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
"Do you personally think that the drumwork he did on giant steps is as good as it can get?"

I think that if you put Max Roach, Philly Joe, Elvin, Joe Chambers, Freddie Waits and Billy Higgins all to work on that track, they would have played similarly to what Art did. Or, better yet, I'll throw it back at you...

"what in the world would have done differently?"

Keep in mind when answering this that the tune must still swing, the drums must remain in the background and that neither shadowing the soloist or playing double bass will help this cause.

I would had put Steve Flynn on drums and done something like what he did on Unquestionable Presence.

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 02:55 PM

and I would have had Salvador Dali paint the Mona Lisa. What does that mean, there home boy?

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 03:16 PM

Steve Flynn was in Atheist, here is the whole unquestionable presense album : here (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Atheist%20-%20Unquestionable%20Presence%20%5b1991%5d/)

Mother Man is a good song to start with, I hope that cleared things up for you.

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 03:21 PM

well, my soundcard is currently down again, but unless this Flynn guy actually swings (I'll find out when I get back to a computer with a soundcard) I will laugh at you non-stop. Should I be prepared to laugh at you for all eternity coypu?

Jazz

January 16th, 2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
Well Cortland is an early work, try listening to some Gordian Knot, the song Arsis or Grace, his bass and stick work is amazing.

Here is an Aghora song you can check out : http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/...0-%20Frames.mp3

You will appreciate this guy alot more once you hear his full catalog, I have never run across who has a wider span in playing that this guy.

Well, you said in the death-jazz thread that you like to judge a player by his weakest stuff, so it wouldn't really matter what else the guy has done. This stuff is stale, and that makes him sucky. Mingus on the other hand has no weak stuff I can proudly show you any Mingus song.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
well, my soundcard is currently down again, but unless this Flynn guy actually swings (I'll find out when I get back to a computer with a soundcard) I will laugh at you non-stop. Should I be prepared to laugh at you for all eternity coypu?

He swings more than most.

Well, you said in the death-jazz thread that you like to judge a player by his weakest stuff, so it wouldn't really matter what else the guy has done. This stuff is stale, and that makes him sucky. Mingus on the other hand has no weak stuff I can proudly show you any Mingus song.

I personally like the song alot, the music is abit to jazzy for me though but the bassplaying kicks ass. His solo is excellent and his middle basslines is defiantely nice, considering that it is jazz he can't put up killer basslines all the time.

Jazz

January 16th, 2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
I personally like the song alot, the music is abit to jazzy for me though but the bassplaying kicks ass. His solo is excellent and his middle basslines is defiantely nice, considering that it is jazz he can't put up killer basslines all the time.

I don't know, it just doesn't inspire emotions in me like Mingus or Miles, or Monk. I think its okay, but if you listen to Monk you will get a much better feeling

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 05:41 PM

"He swings more than most"

What, more than most death metal drummer? Not much of a feat.

More than most non-jazz drummers? I think Ginger Baker, Jabo and John Bonham would probably want a word with you then.

More than most drummers, period?

Plese coypu, clarify your statements. I know, you're from sweden, this isn't your native tongue, but still, you'll save yourself a couple of arguments here or there anyway...

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
I don't know, it just doesn't inspire emotions in me like Mingus or Miles, or Monk. I think its okay, but if you listen to Monk you will get a much better feeling

I listened to Mood Indigo by Monk a few minutes ago and it didn't exactly blow my mind.. I know that it is taste but that song would work as elevator music but to activly listen to it just doesn't work for me. Don't take this the wrong way, I just think that it is abit too smooth and slow.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
"He swings more than most"

What, more than most death metal drummer? Not much of a feat.

More than most non-jazz drummers? I think Ginger Baker, Jabo and John Bonham would probably want a word with you then.

More than most drummers, period?

Plese coypu, clarify your statements. I know, you're from sweden, this isn't your native tongue, but still, you'll save yourself a couple of arguments here or there anyway...

he was a jazz player before atheist so I think that he swings pretty much, just listen to the guy and hear for yourself. It is pointless discussing a drummer you have never heard.

Jazz

January 16th, 2003, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
I listened to Mood Indigo by Monk a few minutes ago and it didn't exactly blow my mind.. I know that it is taste but that song would work as elevator music but to activly listen to it just doesn't work for me. Don't take this the wrong way, I just think that it is abit too smooth and slow.

Its funny I kind of thought the same thing about Controversy by Sean Malone. It DID sound pretty goofy,if you listen to it again you will know what I mean.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
Its funny I kind of thought the same thing about Controversy by Sean Malone. It DID sound pretty goofy,if you listen to it again you will know what I mean.

too smooth and too slow? Sean Malone - Controversy? Are you sure that you actually heard the song?

Jazz

January 16th, 2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
too smooth and too slow? Sean Malone - Controversy? Are you sure that you actually heard the song?

No, not too smooth/slow. Just really goofy. And VERY reminiscent of elevator music too.

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 06:13 PM

Coypu, I think you listen to other people's music intending to bash it...you know you favor more extreme music, brisker tempos, and the sort. And then, when it is time to listen to some Monk, you go for the Ellington ballad. Of course you're not going to like it. Do yourself a favor and when you go back and you listen to Evidence by Thelonious, make a comment based on that. And if that's smooth, you're deaf.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Coypu, I think you listen to other people's music intending to bash it...you know you favor more extreme music, brisker tempos, and the sort. And then, when it is time to listen to some Monk, you go for the Ellington ballad. Of course you're not going to like it. Do yourself a favor and when you go back and you listen to Evidence by Thelonious, make a comment based on that. And if that's smooth, you're deaf.

I download what I can find and then I comment it, maybe I just hit the bad apples all the time? I will do my best to find that song by Thelonious but it's hard to find jazz.

And I like some jazz, as think coltrane is excellent as a solo player for example. He have my fullest respect!

No, not too smooth/slow. Just really goofy. And VERY reminiscent of elevator music too.

No, you don't get bass solos in elevator music, nor do you hear anything like the start of the song. I think that you just are saying this to get some sort of revenge? I must add that i never meant to bash the song, it just was slow and soft, if people enjoy that then all is good. I just don't-

Giant Steps

January 16th, 2003, 06:22 PM

Guys, we've got to let this one die. It screamed, "Look at me! I'm a little brat and I want attention!" from the start. We have over 11 pages of this in another thread, lets keep it there. No need to fight the battle on two fronts.

-GS-

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by Giant Steps
Guys, we've got to let this one die. It screamed, "Look at me! I'm a little brat and I want attention!" from the start. We have over 11 pages of this in another thread, lets keep it there. No need to fight the battle on two fronts.

-GS-

Don't blame me, I created this thread to recomend some good jazz fusion but you guys seem to take anything out of standard jazz as a death threat :rolleyes:

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 06:53 PM

"Don't blame me, I created this thread to recomend some good jazz fusion but you guys seem to take anything out of standard jazz as a death threat "

No, it's not that. And honestly, I think if anyone else had come in here and recommended this great fusion artist, we might have given it a fair shake. But instead, it comes from this guy who has talked about how great death metal is, how much better death metal is than jazz and whenever his jazz credentials are questioned, he only mentions two bands, that aren't even really jazz: Tribal Tech and Holdsworth.

I don't think you understand how insulting all of this is. This is a board, probably made up mostly of musicians, and in some cases, musicians who have researched this music to degrees that would make Wynton and Ken Burns blush. For you to come in here and talk about the weakness of bass players who we consider to be idols isn't light conversational fare.

Dizzy Gillespie was right "People died for this music! You don't get no more serious than that."

If you want equal treatment in here, you want us to respect your suggestions, get on track with us. Go out and buy some jazz. To hell with this Death Metal crap. Go out and buy some jazz.

Coypu

January 16th, 2003, 07:03 PM

Your mentality is a good example of things that are wrong in this world. People who assume things before they know it. "Oh, all black people steal, all jews masturbate to photos of banks, all people who like DM doesn't like anything else". I give you guys a fair chance, I have downloaded over 200 jazz songs since I came here, I have spent many hours listening to jazz, and I have searched for as much jazz as I can find. I do my best but all the time I get the approach of people who talk shit about bands they never have heard, many of you just assume that Burzums music isn't good eventhough you never have heard it. Burzum is also a black metal band but how many of you would notice the differance? If I told you guys that Spastic Ink was death metal then you would beleive me (most of you), I do my best but you guys don't even try.

jazzypaul

January 16th, 2003, 07:05 PM

Okay, so what are those jazz songs?

Jazz

January 16th, 2003, 08:17 PM

[i]Originally posted by Coypu[i]
Your mentality is a good example of things that are wrong in this world. People who assume things before they know it. "Oh, all black people steal, all jews masturbate to photos of banks, all people who like DM doesn't like anything else". I give you guys a fair chance, I have downloaded over 200 jazz songs since I came here, I have spent many hours listening to jazz, and I have searched for as much jazz as I can find. I do my best but all the time I get the approach of people who talk shit about bands they never have heard, many of you just assume that Burzums music isn't good eventhough you never have heard it. Burzum is also a black metal band but how many of you would notice the differance? If I told you guys that Spastic Ink was death metal then you would beleive me (most of you), I do my best but you guys don't even try.

Oh don't start whining now. Is it doing your best to pretty much tell us the music we love sucks compared to the music you love? No one was doing that to you in that other thread until you kept pushing it and pushing it.

If you want to influence us, you are going to have to respect our opinions a little more instead of just arguing with us about everything.

And no, I was not merely getting back at you but that Sean Malone song DOES sound like elevator music. Does that make it any less freaking valid? ALOT of the music I like sounds like it could be played in an elevator, what does that have to do with anything? That was the point I was trying to make. Now argue with me.

DWBass

January 16th, 2003, 09:11 PM

"I have downloaded over 200 jazz songs since I came here, I have spent many hours listening to jazz, and I have searched for as much jazz as I can find."

For a person who is 'new' to jazz, for some it is an aquired taste and for others, they get it right away. Your 200 songs downloaded in no way compares to what many of us here who have been listening and loving jazz since the 60's (assuming no one is older than that here). I'm no expert on Straight Ahead, Bebop or Classic Jazz so I'll leave that argument to those who do. I'm more in tune with Contemporary Jazz and Jazz Fusion (yes there is such a thing). I will just reiterate what the majority here is saying to you. This is a jazz BBS where discussions about jazz are to take place. I'm sure we all appreciate your love for DM but you have to ease up with the comparisons. Your expertise is in DM, not jazz! So, why argue or provide counterpoint on a subject where you are a novice to jazz. I have a request....do you know anyone who is in any of your favorite DM bands who would like to join this discussion or provide some insight into their world. A real actual member you could invite? I wonder if his/her views would be the same as yours?!

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Okay, so what are those jazz songs?

John Coltrane - Interstellar Space - 03 Venus
John Coltrane - Jupiter
John Coltrane - Mars
John Coltrane - Leo
John Coltrane - Jupiter Variation
John Coltrane - Blue Train
John Coltrane - Trinkle Tinkle
John Coltrane - Hot House (Jam Session)
John Coltrane - While My Lady Sleeps
John Coltrane - Bittersweet
John Coltrane - Trane's Blues
John Coltrane - We Love To Boogie
John Coltrane - Good Groove
John Coltrane - Thru For The Night
John Coltrane - The Inch Worm
John Coltrane - Miles' Mode
John Coltrane - Soul Eyes
John Coltrane - Big Nick
John Coltrane - Tunji
John Coltrane - Out of this world
John Coltrane - Up 'Gainst The Wall
John Coltrane - Double Clutching
John Coltrane - Just Friends
John Coltrane - Like Someone In Love
John Coltrane - Shifting Down
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 4-04 - India (D)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 4-02 - Greensleeves (C)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 2-02 - Chasin' Another Trane (B)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 1-06 - Naima (A)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 1-01 - India (A)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 2-01 - Brasilia (A)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 4-03 - Miles' Mode (C)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 1-04 - Spiritual (A).mp3
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 2-04 - Spiritual (B).mp3
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 4-01 - India (C)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 3-01 - Chasin' The Trane (B).mp3
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 1-05 - Miles' Mode (A).mp3
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 1-03 - Impressions (A).mp3
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 3-06 - Impressions (C).mp3
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 3-05 - Naima (C)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 4-05 - Spiritual (D)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 3-03 - Impressions (B)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 2-03 - India (B)
John Coltrane - Greensleeves (B)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 1-02 - Chasin' The Trane (A)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 2-05 - Softly As In A Morning Sunrise (B)
John Coltrane - Complete 1961 Village Vanguard - 3-04 - Spiritual (C)
John Coltrane - Syeeda's Song Flute (alternate
John Coltrane - Cousin Mary
John Coltrane - Countdown
John Coltrane - Mr. P.C.
John Coltrane - Naima
John Coltrane - Giant Steps (alternate take)
John Coltrane - Countdown (alternate take)
John Coltrane - Spiral
John Coltrane - Giant Steps
John Coltrane - Syeeda's Song Flute
John Coltrane - Cousin Mary (alternate take)
John Coltrane - Naima (alternate take)
John Coltrane - A Love Supreme, Part II -- Resolution
John Coltrane - A Love Supreme, Part I -- Acknowledgement
John Coltrane - A Love Supreme, Part IV -- Psalm
John Coltrane - A Love Supreme, Part III -- Pursuance
John Coltrane - Blue valse
John Coltrane - Impressions ( 2nd versione )
John Coltrane - Naima
John Coltrane - Impressions
John Coltrane - Afro blue
John Coltrane - I Love You
John Coltrane - I Hear A Rhapsody
John Coltrane - Lush Life
John Coltrane - Like Someone In Love
John Coltrane - Trane's Slo Blues
John Coltrane - My Favorite Things, Part 2
John Coltrane - My Favorite Things
John Coltrane - Everytime We Say Goodbye
John Coltrane - But Not For Me
John Coltrane - My Favorite Things - 05 - My Favorite Things, Part 1.mp3
John Coltrane - Summertime
01.Sun Ship.mp3
03.Amen.mp3
John Coltrane - Attaining
Thelonious Monk - Straight, No Chaser - (Blue Note - 1951)
John Coltrane - Dearly Beloved
Miles Davis & John Coltrane - Autumn Leaves
Thelonious Monk - Mood indigo
Miles Davis & John Coltrane - Live in New York (4)
John Zorn - Kavana
John Coltrane - Ascent
Charles Mingus - Mingus Ah Um - 05 - Open Letter To Duke
Unknown Artist - Swing Jazz - Big Band - Buddy
Cannonball Adderly - Toy - with Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Art Blakey, Charles Mingus
Charles Mingus - Goodbye Pork Pie Hat
Charles Mingus - Meditation For Moses
Buddy Rich Big Band - 08 - Milestones
Charles Mingus - Pedal Point Blues
Charles Mingus- EpitaphD2-01-MonkBunkAndViceVersa
John Coltrane - Archie Shepp - Skag
02 - John Coltrane - Naima
John Coltrane - John Coltrane - One Down, One Up
John Coltrane - Archie Shepp - Call Me By My Rightful Name
John Coltrane - Archie Shepp - Le Matin Des Noire
John Coltrane - Archie Shepp - Gingerbread, Gingerbread Boy
John Coltrane - Archie Shepp - Rufus
John Coltrane - John Coltrane - My Favorite Things
JOHN COLTRANE-MR. P.C
JOHN COLTRANE-BODY AND SOUL
JOHN COLTRANE-MILES MODE
JOHN COLTRANE-MY FAVOURITE THINGS
Miles Davis - Move
Miles Davis - Jeru
Miles Davis - Moon Dreams
Miles Davis - Venus De Milo
Miles Davis - Budo
Miles Davis - Deception
Miles Davis - Godchild
Miles Davis - Boplicity
Miles Davis - Rocker
Miles Davis - Israel
Miles Davis - Rouge
Miles Davis - Darn That Dream
05 - Miles Runs The Voodoo Down
Miles Davis - Bitches Brew
Miles Davis - Spanish Key
Miles Davis - Feio
Miles Davis - - Pharaoh's Dance
Miles Davis - Sanctuary
04 - John McLaughlin
11 - Louis Armstrong - Skokiaan.mp3
18 - Louis Armstrong - When it's sleepy time down south.mp3
10 - Louis Armstrong - Gone fishin.mp3
13 - Louis Armstrong - The dummy song.mp3
14 - Louis Armstrong - Chloe.mp3
12 - Louis Armstrong - La vie en rose.mp3
03 - Louis Armstrong - Sittin in the sun.mp3
16 - Louis Armstrong - When you're smiling.mp3
17 - Louis Armstrong - Blueberry hill.mp3
05 - Louis Armstrong - A kiss to build a dream on.mp3
09 - Louis Armstrong - I get ideas.mp3
06 - Louis Armstrong - It takes 2 to tango.mp3
08 - Louis Armstrong - Kiss of fire.mp3
15 - Louis Armstrong - I still get jealous.mp3
07 - Louis Armstrong - That lucky old sun.mp3
02 - Louis Armstrong - Hello Dolly.mp3
04 - Louis Armstrong - Mack the Knife.mp3
01 - Louis Armstrong - What a Wonderful World.mp3

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:02 AM

02-charlie parker-what is this thing called love.-aaf.mp3
04-charlie parker-funky blues-aaf.mp3
01-charlie parker-jam blues-aaf.mp3
03-charlie parker-ballad medley-aaf.mp3
06-charlie parker-okiedoke-aaf.mp3
03-charlie parker-no noise - parts i and ii-aaf.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) April in Paris.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) Cheek to Cheek.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) Isn't This a Lovely Day.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) Star Fell on Alabama.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) Tenderly.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) The Nearness of You.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) Moonlight in Vermont.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) Can't We Be Friends.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) They Can't Take That Away.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) Under a Blanket of Blue.mp3
(Ella Fitzgerald & Louie Armstrong) A Foggy Day.mp3
05-john scofield-i brake for monster booty-0mni.mp3
06-john scofield-unknown-0mni.mp3
01-john scofield-acid heat-0mni.mp3
02-john scofield-snap crackle-0mni.mp3
03-john scofield-boozer-0mni.mp3
04-john scofield-unknown-0mni.mp3
Louis Armstrong -134- King of the Zulus-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -108- All the Wrongs You've Done to Me-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -114- See See Rider-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -130- Georgia Grind-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -136- Snag it-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -132- Muskrat Ramble-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -128- Heebie Jeebies-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -116- Reckless Blues-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -135- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -109- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -123- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -127- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -111- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -115- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -124- Gut Bucket Blues-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -122- New Orleans Function-Flee as a-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -120- Trouble in Mind-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -129- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -106- High Society-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -126- Cornet Chop Suey-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -113- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -117- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -131- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -104- Canal Street Blues-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -101- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -105- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -110- Everybody Loves My Baby-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -118- Court House Blues-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -102- Dipper Mouth Blues-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -137- Frog-i-more Rag-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -119- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -133- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -103- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -107- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -121- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -112- Mandy Make up Your Mind-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -125- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -206- Gully Low Blues-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -224- Some of These Days-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -215- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -219- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -233- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -228- Song of the Islands-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -203- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -207- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -221- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -231- Introduction Dear Old Southland-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -210- Hotter Than That-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -202- Wild Man Blues-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -216- Basin Street Blues-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -214- My Monday Date-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -235- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -212- Two Deuces-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -236- (Null)-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -222- Mahogany Hall Stomp-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -205- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -230- I Can't Believe That You're-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -209- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -223- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -227- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -211- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -204- Potato Head Blues-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -208- Struttin With Some Barbecue-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -232- Exactly Like You-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -234- (Null)-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -225- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -229- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -213- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -217- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -220- I Can't Give You Anything But-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -201- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -226- When You're Smiling-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -218- Knockin a Jug-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -320- That's My Home-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -308- You Rascal You-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -326- My Monday Date-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -314- Them There Eyes-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -313- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -317- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -301- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -324- On the Sunny Side of the Street-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -302- If I Could Be With You-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -310- When It's Sleep Time Down South-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong - body and soul
Louis Armstrong -315- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -319- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -303- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -307- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -321- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -312- I Surrender Dear-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -305- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -309- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -323- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -318- Georgia on My Mind-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -311- Introduction-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -316- Up a Lazy River-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -306- Memories of You-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -322- Hobo You Can't Ride This Train-ms jazz.mp3
Louis Armstrong -325- Conclusion-ms jazz.mp3
01-miles davis-move-ftd.mp3
02-miles davis-jeru-ftd.mp3
03-miles davis-moon dreams-ftd.mp3
04-miles davis-venus de milo-ftd.mp3
05-miles davis-budo-ftd.mp3
06-miles davis-deception-ftd.mp3
07-miles davis-godchild-ftd.mp3
Miles Davis - Boplicity
Miles Davis - Rocker
Miles Davis - Israel
Miles Davis - Rouge
Miles Davis - Darn That Dream
Stan Getz & Joco Gilberto Feat - O Grande Amor
Stan Getz & Joco Gilberto Feat - So Danco Amor
Stan Getz & Joco Gilberto Feat - The Girl From Ipanema
Stan Getz & Joco Gilberto Feat - Desafinado
Stan Getz & Joco Gilberto Feat - Doralice
Stan Getz & Joco Gilberto Feat - Para Machucar Meu Coracao
Stan Getz & Joco Gilberto Feat - Vivo Sohando
Stan Getz & Joco Gilberto Feat - Corcovado
Stan Getz & Chet Baker - Just Friends
Stan Getz & Chet Baker - Dear Old Stockholm
Stan Getz & Chet Baker - Airegin
Stan Getz & Chet Baker - Introduction
03-Stan Getz & Chet Baker-Stella By Starlight.mp3
06-Stan Getz & Chet Baker-Milestones.mp3
08-Stan Getz & Chet Baker-Line For Lyons.mp3
05-Stan Getz & Chet Baker-My Funny Valentine.mp3
Thelonius Monk - Rythm-a-ning.MP3
Thelonius Monk - Well you needn´t.MP3
Thelonius Monk - Sweet and lovely.MP3
Thelonius Monk - Straight, no chaser.MP3
Thelonius Monk - I´m getting sentimental over you.MP3
Thelonius Monk - Body and soul.MP3
Thelonius Monk - Epistrophy.MP3
Thelonius Monk And Sonny Rollins - Friday the 13tth.MP3
Thelonius Monk And Sonny Rollins - Nutty.MP3
Thelonius Monk And Sonny Rollins - The way you look tonight .MP3
Thelonius Monk And Sonny Rollins - I want to be happy.MP3
Thelonius Monk And Sonny Rollins - Work.MP3

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by Jazz
Oh don't start whining now. Is it doing your best to pretty much tell us the music we love sucks compared to the music you love? No one was doing that to you in that other thread until you kept pushing it and pushing it.

If you want to influence us, you are going to have to respect our opinions a little more instead of just arguing with us about everything.

And no, I was not merely getting back at you but that Sean Malone song DOES sound like elevator music. Does that make it any less freaking valid? ALOT of the music I like sounds like it could be played in an elevator, what does that have to do with anything? That was the point I was trying to make. Now argue with me.

Hey man, if you like elevator music that that's fine and dandy. I mostly like Cortland for the basswork so it's not a problem.

For a person who is 'new' to jazz, for some it is an aquired taste and for others, they get it right away. Your 200 songs downloaded in no way compares to what many of us here who have been listening and loving jazz since the 60's (assuming no one is older than that here). I'm no expert on Straight Ahead, Bebop or Classic Jazz so I'll leave that argument to those who do. I'm more in tune with Contemporary Jazz and Jazz Fusion (yes there is such a thing). I will just reiterate what the majority here is saying to you. This is a jazz BBS where discussions about jazz are to take place. I'm sure we all appreciate your love for DM but you have to ease up with the comparisons. Your expertise is in DM, not jazz! So, why argue or provide counterpoint on a subject where you are a novice to jazz. I have a request....do you know anyone who is in any of your favorite DM bands who would like to join this discussion or provide some insight into their world. A real actual member you could invite? I wonder if his/her views would be the same as yours?!

I might be able to invite Steve DiGiorio if you guys ever bash his bassplaying. But he is pretty much the only one I know who post much on the internet. I may not be an expert on jazz but you guys are even worse on death metal and that have never stopped you to bash bands that you have neven even heard... And the avrage person have heard ALOT jazz during their lives from movies, tv programs, radio etc. Death Metal is something that most people never hear at all so I can safly say that I know more about jazz than you guys know about DM.

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 10:01 AM

"I may not be an expert on jazz but you guys are even worse on death metal and that have never stopped you to bash bands that you have neven even heard... And the avrage person have heard ALOT jazz during their lives from movies, tv programs, radio etc. Death Metal is something that most people never hear at all so I can safly say that I know more about jazz than you guys know about DM."

The picture becomes astonishingly clear...Coypu was the scrawny little putz with the long hair and the buddy holly glasses in high school. Coypu was abused by all of the other kids, taunted for his swedish accent and his constant playing of dungeons and dragons. So, he'd go home at night and listen to death metal. Lots of it. He found music that was at home with his anger, with his despair, with his lack of understanding over slavery, and with his yearning to have someone who burns down churches as a hero. And now that he's being picked upon again, we get the whiny kid in the buddy holly glasses and the black t-shirt who is the victim again.

Face it coypu, we're allowed to know less about death metal than you. IT'S A JAZZ BBS. It would be different if I walked onto a death metal site and started talking about how much more badass Bill Evans is than Immolation, but that isn't what's going on here. You're coming on here, not asking questions about jazz, not trying to glean knowledge from people that know this music intimately (and shit, we come from similar backgrounds, I came from Thrash and Speed Metal, I am sure we would have similar entry points!), you just came in here and immediately started talking smack. You tell us that jazz needs to combine forces with jazz -- not fusion mind you -- and expect us to nod our heads and say, "okay!" No, not going to happen. You seeing that that will get you nowhere, tell us that Death Metal is superior to jazz. Also not a way to garner friends at a jazz site. Rock fans might agree with you. Pop fans will go "eww, look at the greasy hair!" and go back to their N*SYNC posters. Jazz fans will argue till they are blue in the face over this one, as they have every right to. You complain that this is a death-jazz thread, but that's a misnomer. If there's little to no improvisation, no use of the flat 5th and no feeling of the blues, it's just not jazz, no matter how complicated it is. It's like me trying to start a thread about twinkies with no preservatives, Politicians without personal agendas or swingin' Kenny G solos. All fallacies. And therefore, it's not a death thread at all, it's a thread meant to bait us jazz fans. Because after all, after a day of getting beaten up at school and having those Buddy Holly glasses broken, baiting some jazz fans sounds like a grand idea.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 10:57 AM

You guys entered the discussion with set beleifs, you are so convinced that you think that you don't even need to hear DM at all to have an opinion about it. You just assume that just because the genre have names like Death, Gorguts, etc it must be bad. What you fail to realise is that DM have taken some things to their extreme and have no match in any genre, especially not jazz.

What you fail to realise that your precious genre get outdone by Fusion, Classical music, Death Metal, Black Metal and even pop on occation. Hell, even Eminem is better than some jazz and that says alot. The world is full of wonderfull music and all genres have something that they are best at. Fusion did the right thing, it evolved with the help of Rock and Metal. Look at Tribal Tech for example, a brilliant and innovative band. Jaco advanced bassplaying to a new level and then Cynic came and took things even further by evolving fusion by combining it with DM. Why let Cynic, Tribal Tech and Holdsworth dominate? Why not evolve and create something new and lets see what happens?

ps- I never wore glasses nor was I picked on in school. Here is Sweden people are alot more open minded and tolerant than in america, even religion have lost all power here so move here the next time the metal heads beat you up and you will be accepted as you are.

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 11:08 AM

When death metal swings as hard as Miles' 50's and 60's quintets, we'll talk. None of those bands are dominating over jazz, they're barely known also rans in the jazz world. Yes, they have chops, but they don't swing. I listen to jazz because I love to groove. Swingin' is the most powerful groove there is.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 11:19 AM

here is some grooving examples from Seans site from his, death, fusion & jazz projects :
http://www.seanmalone.net/Samples/index.htm

Groove exists in many forms of music, you might like swing but it is just one of many 'methods' to create a nice groove.

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 01:11 PM

The major flaw in what you're saying here is coypu, is that jazz should take some other music's form of groove and make it jazz's groove. What you fail to realize is that music is defined, at its core, by its groove. This is why Samba and Bossa Nova, while essentially intertwined, are considered two different types of music. But, jazz swings, R&B swaggers, Blue shuffles, Rock plods along, Funk grooves, etc, etc, etc. They're all different grooves, and yes, at their best moments, they all swing, but that's what makes jazz special, is that it has the mightiest of all grooves. The swing. That's why I doubly appreciate it when I hear something that genuinely swings in a music outside of jazz. When the Levee Breaks by Zeppelin is a great example of this. It's the heaviest tune of all time, hands down. But it swings like a mutha. Death Metal doesn't swing, and I dont want it touching my jazz.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
The major flaw in what you're saying here is coypu, is that jazz should take some other music's form of groove and make it jazz's groove. What you fail to realize is that music is defined, at its core, by its groove. This is why Samba and Bossa Nova, while essentially intertwined, are considered two different types of music. But, jazz swings, R&B swaggers, Blue shuffles, Rock plods along, Funk grooves, etc, etc, etc. They're all different grooves, and yes, at their best moments, they all swing, but that's what makes jazz special, is that it has the mightiest of all grooves. The swing. That's why I doubly appreciate it when I hear something that genuinely swings in a music outside of jazz. When the Levee Breaks by Zeppelin is a great example of this. It's the heaviest tune of all time, hands down. But it swings like a mutha. Death Metal doesn't swing, and I dont want it touching my jazz.

So you only like music that swings? I thought you where a Eminem fan??

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
So you only like music that swings? I thought you where a Eminem fan??

That is such a B.S. argument Coypu and you know it. And so does everybody else. That is so blatantly NOT what Jazzypaul said that you have laid your intentions bare before this whole board.

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 01:25 PM

Thanks, jazz. But, since he asked, I'll take it...

"So you only like music that swings? I thought you where a Eminem fan??"

Once again, proving your rhythmic and theoretical ignorance, you forget that if you sit down and listen to the asymetrical lines, the 3 against 2's and 6 against 4 patterns that Eminem uses, that, yes, while the beats don't swing, at his best moments, his raps certainly do.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Thanks, jazz. But, since he asked, I'll take it...

"So you only like music that swings? I thought you where a Eminem fan??"

Once again, proving your rhythmic and theoretical ignorance, you forget that if you sit down and listen to the asymetrical lines, the 3 against 2's and 6 against 4 patterns that Eminem uses, that, yes, while the beats don't swing, at his best moments, his raps certainly do.

Explain with music theory why his rap swing.

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 01:36 PM

well, going completely on theory here (oooh, I love getting to use my "I'm a drummer and I know more than you" chops...), here goes...

take any uptempo eminem song, and he'll do it every time, almost.

1) use of the displaced eigth note gives his a raps a sense of "jump" to them, giving propulsion to the next note.

2) use of dotted eighth notes allows for polyrhythms to happen, and polyrhythms are at the heart of all swing

3) syncopation: the big word that everyone was looking for -- the difference between Em, Jay-Z, and almost everything else out there is syncopation. Syncopation is what makes jazz swing and what makes blues shuffle. And Em syncopates like it's going out of style.

Good enough?

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
well, going completely on theory here (oooh, I love getting to use my "I'm a drummer and I know more than you" chops...), here goes...

take any uptempo eminem song, and he'll do it every time, almost.

1) use of the displaced eigth note gives his a raps a sense of "jump" to them, giving propulsion to the next note.

2) use of dotted eighth notes allows for polyrhythms to happen, and polyrhythms are at the heart of all swing

3) syncopation: the big word that everyone was looking for -- the difference between Em, Jay-Z, and almost everything else out there is syncopation. Syncopation is what makes jazz swing and what makes blues shuffle. And Em syncopates like it's going out of style.

Good enough?

Ok but doens't Meshuggah fill theese criterias too?

Spastic Ink for example use dotted eight notes and syncopation etc. Listen to this song : suspended on all fours (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Spastik%20Ink%20-%20Ink%20Complete%20(1997)/spastic%20ink%20-%20suspended%20on%20all%20fours.mp3) does this swing?

give me honest answers, I'm trying to understand the swing theory so give me straight answer of why or why not.

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 02:13 PM

Ever try to make a drum machine swing? It's impossible, and it's hilarious to try. You can put in the proper syncopations, the right dotted eighth notes, you can displace everything properly, and it still won't. The Swing is an elusive mistress. Technically speaking, When The Levee Breaks shouldn't swing, and yet does. Technically speaking, Kenton should have swung more, and didn't. The fun thing about swing is that it has everything to do the character of the music and not too terribly much to do with technicality. Yes, there are theoretic things which need to happen in order for something to swing, but it's also all about the feel of it. This is why Jimmy Cobb, who is not a great drummer by any stretch of the imagination, could do one thing well, and I mean, VERY WELL: he simply figured out the secret to swinging, and swung lighter and tastier than a whole helluva lot of cats who had more chops in their middle fingers than he had in his whole body. Messhugah and Spastik Ink just don't have it. It's not there. It's technically precise music and all, but it doesn't swing.

So, Paul, why does Eminem swing then? Well, if you notice, he's not a "heavy" rapper like a Chuck D. He raps, he doesn't scream, his delivery is lightning fast and it's just a hair ahead of the beat. Therefore, when he "lands" on one, he's just ahead of, driving the beat, which, in being static, ends up giving the entire tune a sense of anticipation. Which in turn, makes things swing.

DWBass

January 17th, 2003, 02:17 PM

In Rapper terms, it's called flow! If you ain't got it, you can't rap.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Ever try to make a drum machine swing? It's impossible, and it's hilarious to try. You can put in the proper syncopations, the right dotted eighth notes, you can displace everything properly, and it still won't. The Swing is an elusive mistress. Technically speaking, When The Levee Breaks shouldn't swing, and yet does. Technically speaking, Kenton should have swung more, and didn't. The fun thing about swing is that it has everything to do the character of the music and not too terribly much to do with technicality. Yes, there are theoretic things which need to happen in order for something to swing, but it's also all about the feel of it. This is why Jimmy Cobb, who is not a great drummer by any stretch of the imagination, could do one thing well, and I mean, VERY WELL: he simply figured out the secret to swinging, and swung lighter and tastier than a whole helluva lot of cats who had more chops in their middle fingers than he had in his whole body. Messhugah and Spastik Ink just don't have it. It's not there. It's technically precise music and all, but it doesn't swing.

So, Paul, why does Eminem swing then? Well, if you notice, he's not a "heavy" rapper like a Chuck D. He raps, he doesn't scream, his delivery is lightning fast and it's just a hair ahead of the beat. Therefore, when he "lands" on one, he's just ahead of, driving the beat, which, in being static, ends up giving the entire tune a sense of anticipation. Which in turn, makes things swing.

So it is all down to opinion then?

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 02:28 PM

Holy cow!

Okay here is what rhythmic energy is

There is a rhythmic gray area in between 240 beats and 241 beats. That gray area has an infinite amount of points in it.

So to add energy the drummer will play at 240.05 or 240.10 beats per minute WHILE THE REST OF THE BAND PLAYS at exactly 240 beats per minute. Do you know how hard it is for the band not to follow the drummer and speed up? It takes an internal sense of time like a metronome. And don't say that your deathmetal bands can do it, at least not Necrophages cause that guy drops the beat in a RECORDED song, where he had time to work in a STUDIO. Jazz musicians do that kind of thing live.

So that is not swing, but it IS rhythmic energy.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
Holy cow!

Okay here is what rhythmic energy is

There is a rhythmic gray area in between 240 beats and 241 beats. That gray area has an infinite amount of points in it.

So to add energy the drummer will play at 240.05 or 240.10 beats per minute WHILE THE REST OF THE BAND PLAYS at exactly 240 beats per minute. Do you know how hard it is for the band not to follow the drummer and speed up? It takes an internal sense of time like a metronome. And don't say that your deathmetal bands can do it, at least not Necrophages cause that guy drops the beat in a RECORDED song, where he had time to work in a STUDIO. Jazz musicians do that kind of thing live.

So that is not swing, but it IS rhythmic energy.

So you swing when you play in similar but different tempos?

Where exactly does he drop the beat?

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 02:36 PM

Not at all. It's a thing of "when I feel it, when I hear it, I know it."

Listen to Milestones by Miles Davis from the album Milestones. If you don't hear swing in that, you're a lost cause.

By the way, to show you that this isn't a singular opinion thing, I'm going to post a new thread: What does swing entail? And you'll see that most people will just generally give you the same answer voiced 50 different ways.

The thing is, you wanted a theoretical response. You can't apply one totally to it. You can mention the technical aspects that are required to swing, but you can't mention the intangible character of the swing.

My best answer for it has always been this, although it is entirely too far reaching: forward motion. Close your eyes, lose yourself in the music. You should be able to feel your ass move forward. The only problem then, is that you must say that Stevie Wonder, James Brown, and P-Funk all swing, which, in that case, they do.

The other interesting aspect is that it is largely something that applies to black music. Blues has its own version of swing, the blues shuffle. Funk swings, old school R&B swings, gospel music swings. Rock, for the most part, doesn't, but when it does, strangely enough, you'll find that those drummers listened to black drummers for inspiration. In my group of musicians, if something doesn't swing, it sounds white (they're all white except for me, the half latino/half algerian). What can I say, Death Metal sounds as white as a wedding gown at a KKK rally.

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
So you swing when you play in similar but different tempos?

Where exactly does he drop the beat?

About the swinging, sort of but not really. What happens is this: Their is also a ryhthmic gray area between a triplet shuffle and a sixteenth note shuffle. Sing both to yourself alternately. In between those two rhythmic areas is where swing lives. A jazz musician will pick (through intuition) his favorite place in that gray area, or the place that is appropriate for the style and place his second eighths notes in the same place.

So in the ride pattern of a drummer, his skips are placed exactly the same place each time (in between the triplet shuffle and 16th note shuffle), and his quarter notes are just SLIGHTLY faster than the rest of his band, not just faster though, faster VERY consistently so it doesn't sound like a sloppy mistake.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 02:41 PM

Interesting but what you are saying is that it is up to the listener to hear it. I can't b explained with theory. Same with me when I say that Death Metal has the darkest music, I can't explain it with theory but I can feel it just like you feel swing in jazz.

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 02:41 PM

Oh yeah, he drops the beat where I said he did in the other thread at 0:20 right after the break. You argued with me, so my friend has a computer program that slows things down to half their speed, keeping the same pitches, so we did that to make sure. The drum machine comes in at exactly the right time but he comes in early.

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 02:43 PM

"Interesting but what you are saying is that it is up to the listener to hear it. I can't b explained with theory. Same with me when I say that Death Metal has the darkest music, I can't explain it with theory but I can feel it just like you feel swing in jazz."

No that's not what I'm saying, plus I explained it to you with theory so how could I explain it to you with theory if it can't be explained with theory???

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
About the swinging, sort of but not really. What happens is this: Their is also a ryhthmic gray area between a triplet shuffle and a sixteenth note shuffle. Sing both to yourself alternately. In between those two rhythmic areas is where swing lives. A jazz musician will pick (through intuition) his favorite place in that gray area, or the place that is appropriate for the style and place his second eighths notes in the same place.

So in the ride pattern of a drummer, his skips are placed exactly the same place each time (in between the triplet shuffle and 16th note shuffle), and his quarter notes are just SLIGHTLY faster than the rest of his band, not just faster though, faster VERY consistently so it doesn't sound like a sloppy mistake.

So swing is to play abit off in rhythmns and to do so by something like .05 bpm? Most people have a hard time just sitting down and tap 240bpm and then tap 241bpm and notice the differance and you say that you can time this down to .05?

JazzyPaul AKA masterdrummer, can you separate 240bpm from 240.05bpm when you play?

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
Oh yeah, he drops the beat where I said he did in the other thread at 0:20 right after the break. You argued with me, so my friend has a computer program that slows things down to half their speed, keeping the same pitches, so we did that to make sure. The drum machine comes in at exactly the right time but he comes in early.

at : 0:22 you mean? Well i have program like that too called Transcribe and I can clearly hear the guitar commin in exactly at the same time so you are incorrect.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
"Interesting but what you are saying is that it is up to the listener to hear it. I can't b explained with theory. Same with me when I say that Death Metal has the darkest music, I can't explain it with theory but I can feel it just like you feel swing in jazz."

No that's not what I'm saying, plus I explained it to you with theory so how could I explain it to you with theory if it can't be explained with theory???

But jazzypaul can't explain it with theory and he is a drummer. Maybe he can shed some light on your theory?

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 02:51 PM

"So swing is to play abit off in rhythmns and to do so by something like .05 bpm? Most people have a hard time just sitting down and tap 240bpm and then tap 241bpm and notice the differance and you say that you can time this down to .05?

JazzyPaul AKA masterdrummer, can you separate 240bpm from 240.05bpm when you play?"

Yes, Coypu, that is my point about jazz musicians and why they are so amazing. Because with their INTUITION they CAN tell the difference at those speeds. I can't speak for jazzypaul, but I'm just a student, so I know that I am not even close to that kind of instinct, but I will be.

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 02:51 PM

Coypu tries to be a smart ass...

"JazzyPaul AKA masterdrummer, can you separate 240bpm from 240.05bpm when you play?"

It's honestly an instinctual thing. Elvin Jones and Billy Higgins played just behind the beat, every time (so, using the example on the board, about 239.05bpm). It's an internal clock thing, and we as jazz drummers work for our entire lives to get our internal clocks just right. But again, no drum teacher I've ever had, no theory teacher I've ever had has ever broken down the swing this much. Strangely enough, the best explanation of the swing I have ever gotten was from Charlie Braugham, who is a teacher/top notch player here in Chicago...the key to swinging is to be almost too much...almost too fast, almost too loud, almost too inventive.

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 02:52 PM

"at : 0:22 you mean? Well i have program like that too called Transcribe and I can clearly hear the guitar commin in exactly at the same time so you are incorrect."

I'm sorry dude, I listened to it like 20 times, and I'm certain. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 03:00 PM

I'm sorry, this is not my "theory" it is the reality of what is happening.

Here is an excerpt from the book Jazz Theory Resources, by Bert Ligon, Vol 1, Houston Publishing, copyright 2001, p11.

"Some research has been done using a computer system to time the relationship between the first and second notes in the improvisations of artists like Oscar Peterson, Sonny Stitt, John Coltrane, Miles Davis and many others. The results were tabulated and the average ration was in the neighborhood of 58:42."

What that means is that Miles was dividing the beat consistently into 100 equal parts, then playing his long eighth note for 52 equal divisions out of that 100, and playing his short eighth note for 42 equal divisions out of 100. AND it was CONSISTENT. AND he did it with his instinct. Take 120 bpm and try to count 100 times in between the beat. That's what miles was playing

* "ration" should be "ratio"

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:04 PM

so if I program a drumachine to play off like that then it would swing?

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
"at : 0:22 you mean? Well i have program like that too called Transcribe and I can clearly hear the guitar commin in exactly at the same time so you are incorrect."

I'm sorry dude, I listened to it like 20 times, and I'm certain. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

I'm gonna post a soundclip tomorrow to proove it. sorry.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Coypu tries to be a smart ass...

"JazzyPaul AKA masterdrummer, can you separate 240bpm from 240.05bpm when you play?"

It's honestly an instinctual thing. Elvin Jones and Billy Higgins played just behind the beat, every time (so, using the example on the board, about 239.05bpm). It's an internal clock thing, and we as jazz drummers work for our entire lives to get our internal clocks just right. But again, no drum teacher I've ever had, no theory teacher I've ever had has ever broken down the swing this much. Strangely enough, the best explanation of the swing I have ever gotten was from Charlie Braugham, who is a teacher/top notch player here in Chicago...the key to swinging is to be almost too much...almost too fast, almost too loud, almost too inventive.

Cool, all musicians have an internal clock but I didn't know about this though. Very interesting.

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
so if I program a drumachine to play off like that then it would swing?

I don't rightly know, although it would be an interesting experiment.

Originally posted by Coypu
I'm gonna post a soundclip tomorrow to proove it. sorry.

Okay, don't be sorry for me though. You're just going to prove yourself wrong. Both my friend and I listened to seperately and came to the same conclusion. But if everyone on this board disagrees with me I will have to eat my words.

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 03:08 PM

Coypu tries to outsmart the jazzers...

"so if I program a drumachine to play off like that then it would swing?"

No, not at all. But have fun trying. Like I said, trying to get a drum machine to swing is amongst the most hilarious things that you can do. It's a night full of family fun for the whole block.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Coypu tries to outsmart the jazzers...

"so if I program a drumachine to play off like that then it would swing?"

No, not at all. But have fun trying. Like I said, trying to get a drum machine to swing is amongst the most hilarious things that you can do. It's a night full of family fun for the whole block.

Ok so we are back again at something we can't define.

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 03:18 PM

Coypu, can you program dynamics into a drum machine? This is a real question because I don't know about drum machines

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
I don't rightly know, although it would be an interesting experiment.

Okay, don't be sorry for me though. You're just going to prove yourself wrong. Both my friend and I listened to seperately and came to the same conclusion. But if everyone on this board disagrees with me I will have to eat my words.

What about the bass? Do you think that it is off too or on the spot? It could be that you think that the guitar is off because the bass drowns it out?

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 03:19 PM

Plus I gave you a quote from one of the best jazz theory books out there, AND THEY USED A COMPUTER FOR THEIR ANALYSIS. So don't act like you can't define swing.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
Coypu, can you program dynamics into a drum machine? This is a real question because I don't know about drum machines

hmm, the ones I have seen can play notes different hard and so but I haven't seen any that can go down to xxx.xxx bpm speeds but this is really JazzyPauls area. I am pretty clueless when it comes to drummachines.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
Plus I gave you a quote from one of the best jazz theory books out there, AND THEY USED A COMPUTER FOR THEIR ANALYSIS. So don't act like you can't define swing.

So why can't a drum machine swing then?

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 03:24 PM

Maybe it could if it could go down to xxx.xx bpm eh? I told you I don't know about drum machines. It would take a long time programming dynamics into the machine too, because swing is just as much about the hard and soft hit placement as it is about those rhythmic gray areas.

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
What about the bass? Do you think that it is off too or on the spot? It could be that you think that the guitar is off because the bass drowns it out?

Okay for the sake of objectivity, I will listen to it again and again to make sure that's not what is happening.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
Maybe it could if it could go down to xxx.xx bpm eh? I told you I don't know about drum machines. It would take a long time programming dynamics into the machine too, because swing is just as much about the hard and soft hit placement as it is about those rhythmic gray areas.

I have been thinking about why no one makes a drum machine that automatically adds small variations to how hard it hits and how exact it plays to create a more realistic sound. Pretty much like a sloppiness factor where 0 is perfect and 100 is very off. It should be pretty easy to do really with a drumprogram and just adding some random elements set by the sloppiness factor. I'm gonna ask my brother on this, he knows programing better than me. But sure maybe it could swing, but if that is the case then it would be possible to make death metal swing and therefor the combinaiton of jazz death might work really well. That would be cool.

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 04:00 PM

The problem is that computers work on binary code. 1's and 0's. The human brain is far more complex than any computer. This is why all of the coolest hip hop producers sample drum beats and loop them as opposed to using drum machines. Yes, that loop keeps the time perfect, but it also allows for the human element to be there. Some things can't be completely explained. And no, your nasty-assed brand of chocolate is coming nowhere near my silky smooth peanut butter, no matter how many drum machines there are in the world.

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Coypu
but if that is the case then it would be possible to make death metal swing and therefor the combinaiton of jazz death might work really well. That would be cool.

Sure man if that's what floats your boat. Why don't you just get real drummers to swing it out for deathmetal? All they would have to do is study jazz "intensively" for 3 or 4 years to be able to pull it off. Are your death-jazz musicians that dedicated?

Anyways man, I'm going to hold you to that promise to post that song on this site (the slowed down version) for everybody to hear it. I will remind you every day if I have to.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
Sure man if that's what floats your boat. Why don't you just get real drummers to swing it out for deathmetal? All they would have to do is study jazz "intensively" for 3 or 4 years to be able to pull it off. Are your death-jazz musicians that dedicated?

Anyways man, I'm going to hold you to that promise to post that song on this site (the slowed down version) for everybody to hear it. I will remind you every day if I have to.

Some are, Flo Mounier of Cryptopsy have practiced 8 hours per day for over 10 years as an example.

Steve Flynn of Atheist was a jazz drummer and his drumming is killer in Atheist :
sample (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Atheist%20-%20Unquestionable%20Presence%20%5b1991%5d/Atheist%20-%20Mother%20Man.mp3) , Atheist is also Death-jazz (or death-fusion) so that is what I want more of.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
The problem is that computers work on binary code. 1's and 0's. The human brain is far more complex than any computer. This is why all of the coolest hip hop producers sample drum beats and loop them as opposed to using drum machines. Yes, that loop keeps the time perfect, but it also allows for the human element to be there. Some things can't be completely explained. And no, your nasty-assed brand of chocolate is coming nowhere near my silky smooth peanut butter, no matter how many drum machines there are in the world.

As a drummer you are ofcourse against drum machines but drumachines can defiantely be improved from how they are today. I know lots of people who though the drum machine in Necrophagist was a human for example. So if we wait 10 years then things might be different, maybe even drum machines will learn to swing. If we have the 'math' for it then in theory a drum machine could swing just as much as a human.

Jazz

January 17th, 2003, 04:27 PM

I could only hear a small snippet, because of my speaker, but it didn't sound like he was swinging. If he is already an accomplished jazz drummer why do you think he doesn't add the swing element?

Also the snippet I heard sounded like regular metal.

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Jazz
I could only hear a small snippet, because of my speaker, but it didn't sound like he was swinging. If he is already an accomplished jazz drummer why do you think he doesn't add the swing element?

Also the snippet I heard sounded like regular metal.

Ok, the drumming in that song is not regular metal drumming, Atheist disliked the standard drumming and did their own thing. Get the whole song and give it a real listen. Maybe he does swing? I can't tell but if you get the whole song maybe you can?

Coypu

January 17th, 2003, 04:33 PM

on the subject of drummachines : from and interview with Ron Jarzombek.

Bobby is with Riot again. Who is better, he or a computer?

Brilliant question! Let's see... Well, Bobby's timing is impeccable, maybe just a notch below a computer. Writing songs with Bobby was great, but it had a few drawbacks that you don't have with a computer. A computer won't argue with you over the arrangement of a song, but if you want feedback, it doesn't give you shit. A computer will play a part exactly as you write it, but it can't write anything on its own... kind of like a few musicians I know. A computer won't change a part because it wants to and it doesn't fit the song. Kind of like... anyways.
The major drag about writing drum parts on computer is that I have to input every single note with a mouse, the duration, velocity, and try to achieve a good feel. It's a bite in the ass. I'm trying to make the drum parts sound as realistic as possible. With Bobby, I just said "Give me a 9/8 normal time groove with accents on the 2 and a half, and the 5", and it was like...presto, a fuckin' killer beat. Just what I was looking for. I wrote some of the drum parts for "Ink Complete" on drum machine, and then gave Bobby what I wrote, and he spiced it up, and did what he wanted with it, and 95% of the time, it was what I was looking for. I'm spending quite a bit of time on the drum parts, and am doing great, but I'm not knocking myself out because Bobby might come around and get with the program. And then there is always a possibility that I'll get a call or email from Terry Bozzio or Bill Bruford and they'll want to play on "Ink Compatible" for free (HAHAHAHAHAAAA!).

pretty fun to get some insight into what he thinks of drummachines considering that he likes organization, structure and discipline.

jazzypaul

January 17th, 2003, 11:42 PM

Coypu, on the subject of drum machines...

"As a drummer you are ofcourse against drum machines but drumachines can defiantely be improved from how they are today. I know lots of people who though the drum machine in Necrophagist was a human for example. So if we wait 10 years then things might be different, maybe even drum machines will learn to swing. If we have the 'math' for it then in theory a drum machine could swing just as much as a human."

No, as a drummer, I support the use of drum machines. They are a great educational tool. For young drummers just starting out on drumset, they are fantastic. When I teach students, once I've gotten them past basic rudiments and hand drills, when it's on to the kit, they play along with Public Enemy. Why? Because those drum machines keep perfect time, and while they're not swing-y drumbeats, they are syncopated to death. Which brings in the funk, which makes it far easier to teach jazz concepts if we get to that point. As a musician, I think there are some forms of music which do well with drum machines. Hip-Hop for one, given its focus on the vocals, would only lose the main focus of the music by incorporating a live rhythm section. As much as I love Tha Roots, let's face it, they are rather unfocused, because they are split between being a world class funk act and being a world class hip-hop act. That split makes them an also ran in a climate in hip hop where for the first time, we are seeing a rather large amount of quality music coming from that community. Jazz, however, NEEDS human interaction. No matter what you do with a drum machine, you can't program it to spontaneously kick with a soloists idea, to change up the groove, or to do many of the things which make jazz, well, jazz.

Coypu, there are two things about you which offend me on a very basic level:

1) I could care less which you think is better, Death Metal or jazz. But I do care when you tell me that your boys are better than guys who revolutionized our music, or you tell me that music that I consider sacred is smooth, bland or comparable to Britney Spears. If you knew the entire history of jazz, and you were a graduate level theory student, and you could prove that point to me on both a theoretical level and on a level of pure musicality (replace the growling with singing, take out the distortion and phase shifting and tune the drums to actual notes), then I could get with it. But just telling me that death metal is more intense, extreme or technically superior doesn't cut it. And it offends me. Deeply.

2) You keep trying to inject jazz with things that will only bring it down. Jazz will not improve by not swinging. Jazz will not improve by taking out an element of interaction. Jazz will not improve by turning the amps up to 11. John Scofield and David Fiuczynski have convinced me of the coolness of distortion pedals in jazz, but certainly not to the degree that they are used in death metal where they take away the character of the instrument and the player. Yes, I admit, I have some very controversial ideas for how I want to keep jazz growing, but those ideas keep jazz as an artform intact and allow jazz to move forward with a new generation. You want to change jazz into something unrecognizable, and I cannot agree with that. The fact that you would want to change the music that ALL of modern music has been built on also offends me, deeply.

When the death metal guys can play acoustically and when the death metal guys learn how to swing, then you can come back to me. Until then, you have death metal, and I have jazz. I don't want the two mixing. At all.

Oh yeah, by the way...go out and buy some jazz. I do not care how many drum machines or interviews about them you have. You very obviously need more jazz in your collection.

Coypu

January 18th, 2003, 05:01 AM

"1) I could care less which you think is better, Death Metal or jazz. But I do care when you tell me that your boys are better than guys who revolutionized our music, or you tell me that music that I consider sacred is smooth, bland or comparable to Britney Spears. If you knew the entire history of jazz, and you were a graduate level theory student, and you could prove that point to me on both a theoretical level and on a level of pure musicality (replace the growling with singing, take out the distortion and phase shifting and tune the drums to actual notes), then I could get with it. But just telling me that death metal is more intense, extreme or technically superior doesn't cut it. And it offends me. Deeply."

Look inte the dictionary on extreme and intense and you'll see that death metal has more of it.

Technical superior may be incorrect but Fusion holds that title over both genres so we both have to face it.

"When the death metal guys can play acoustically and when the death metal guys learn how to swing, then you can come back to me. Until then, you have death metal, and I have jazz. I don't want the two mixing. At all."

Many death metal played can play acoustically, try this gorguts song : Dormant Misery (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Gorguts%20-%20Dormant%20misery.mp3)

or listen to Reflections by Gordian Knot.

or this : grace (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/Gordian%20Knot-%20grace%20(live)%20(5).mp3)

Coypu

January 18th, 2003, 05:07 AM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
2) You keep trying to inject jazz with things that will only bring it down. Jazz will not improve by not swinging. Jazz will not improve by taking out an element of interaction. Jazz will not improve by turning the amps up to 11. John Scofield and David Fiuczynski have convinced me of the coolness of distortion pedals in jazz, but certainly not to the degree that they are used in death metal where they take away the character of the instrument and the player. Yes, I admit, I have some very controversial ideas for how I want to keep jazz growing, but those ideas keep jazz as an artform intact and allow jazz to move forward with a new generation. You want to change jazz into something unrecognizable, and I cannot agree with that. The fact that you would want to change the music that ALL of modern music has been built on also offends me, deeply.

Hmm, not all DM players use tons of distortion and many players have unique character. If coltrane had Gary Willis and Steve Flynn & Glenn Gould during the Giant Steps time then the music would improve alot! Varied basslines and drumming along with masterfull piano play, all equals to Coltrane himself, no weak links anywhere. Why not go for the best possible?

jazzypaul

January 18th, 2003, 10:20 AM

Wow, Coypu has to be the only guy out there who would go into somebody's house, insult their home, that person's wife, that person's dog and that person's kids, and still expect to be thought of as an alright guy. I get done telling you how offensive you are, after quite a few other people have done the same thing, and then you go and you do it again!!! This is indicative of you, your music and your lifestyle! Why would we want any of it anywhere near jazz? Look at all of our posts in any thread where you have not been. There is happiness and joy and smiling and comraderie. And there are the threads where you have posted, and the mood is completely different. What are you trying to do? Because it's obvious that this isn't even about converting anyone. You've seen that you probablywon't do it. So, what's your alterior motive? It's not jazz, it's not (truly) fusion. So what is it?

Coypu

January 18th, 2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Wow, Coypu has to be the only guy out there who would go into somebody's house, insult their home, that person's wife, that person's dog and that person's kids, and still expect to be thought of as an alright guy. I get done telling you how offensive you are, after quite a few other people have done the same thing, and then you go and you do it again!!! This is indicative of you, your music and your lifestyle! Why would we want any of it anywhere near jazz? Look at all of our posts in any thread where you have not been. There is happiness and joy and smiling and comraderie. And there are the threads where you have posted, and the mood is completely different. What are you trying to do? Because it's obvious that this isn't even about converting anyone. You've seen that you probablywon't do it. So, what's your alterior motive? It's not jazz, it's not (truly) fusion. So what is it?

I beleive that what I do is good. I'm trying to spread new ideas about things most people would never encuonter if it wasn't for me. I understand that there is some controversy in my ideas but the easy way often the wrong one so sometimes you need to take some shit for the greater good. I don't want to convert anyone here, just make sure that you reach understanding about some genres outside straight jazz. If you guys gave it a try then I'm sure that you could like some of it. We are pretty much alike, jazz, fusion, death metal, black metal, progressive music in general share the same mentality. We should join our forces instead of fighting each other. Peace you know! We will be stronger in unity.

jazzypaul

January 18th, 2003, 10:57 AM

Who was fighting before you got here? I was checking out some progressive death metal on my own, well before you got here. Nothing will be gained by music that is diametrically opposed, though. The very things that make jazz special aren't in metal, and for the most part, aren't even in fusion. If you wanna hold hands across america for starving musicians, then fine, I'd be unified with you in that. But not in this. And I believe I speak for everyone on this board when I say that. leave it alone. We don't want to be fused with the power of death metal. And, no, we don't need to take shit for the common good. We need to be able and come in here and have a decent time discussing the music that we love, not the music that we don't like. Is that so hard to understand?

Coypu

January 18th, 2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Who was fighting before you got here? I was checking out some progressive death metal on my own, well before you got here. Nothing will be gained by music that is diametrically opposed, though. The very things that make jazz special aren't in metal, and for the most part, aren't even in fusion. If you wanna hold hands across america for starving musicians, then fine, I'd be unified with you in that. But not in this. And I believe I speak for everyone on this board when I say that. leave it alone. We don't want to be fused with the power of death metal. And, no, we don't need to take shit for the common good. We need to be able and come in here and have a decent time discussing the music that we love, not the music that we don't like. Is that so hard to understand?

You're other threads aren't exactly exploding with discussion so you jump on my threads and attack my music as much as you can. Like this thread which is about a progressive jazz fusion group. I didn't start this thing in here, it was YOU guys who did it so don't blame me.

jazzypaul

January 18th, 2003, 11:27 AM

No, coypu, you started it. You want us to not jump in here and start defending our space, then put "Strictly fusion" on the title of your threads, and we'll leave you alone, I promise. But fusion isn't jazz, and this is ALL ABOUT JAZZ DOT COM. You want to see a happy discussion in here, check out the over-rated thread or the describing swing thread. They're all mutual admiration societies, and it's great. We disagree, but its fun disagreement because no one's telling anyone else that a bunch of stoned out heshers can play better music than jazz! You're offensive, in the worst ways. If you want to learn more about jazz, you're in the right place. But if you just want to keep shoving fusion and or death metal down our throats, you most definitely are not. I don't want to put you on ignore coypu, but you're giving me no other choice. Either back off, and talk about jazz and try to learn something, or do us all a favor and leave.

Coypu

January 18th, 2003, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
No, coypu, you started it. You want us to not jump in here and start defending our space, then put "Strictly fusion" on the title of your threads, and we'll leave you alone, I promise. But fusion isn't jazz, and this is ALL ABOUT JAZZ DOT COM. You want to see a happy discussion in here, check out the over-rated thread or the describing swing thread. They're all mutual admiration societies, and it's great. We disagree, but its fun disagreement because no one's telling anyone else that a bunch of stoned out heshers can play better music than jazz! You're offensive, in the worst ways. If you want to learn more about jazz, you're in the right place. But if you just want to keep shoving fusion and or death metal down our throats, you most definitely are not. I don't want to put you on ignore coypu, but you're giving me no other choice. Either back off, and talk about jazz and try to learn something, or do us all a favor and leave.

Hmm, I must put a label on my threads or I will be attacked nomatter what the content is? Wow, thanks, I will keep that in mind the next time.

To say this again, this thread was about Fusion and acording to the poll something like 40%? was into fusion so I think that fusion belongs in this forum.

jazzypaul

January 18th, 2003, 02:42 PM

well, even if you simply talked about fusion, even that would be fine, but instead, it's metal this and black metal that. I think all of the people who post here on a regular basis have requested that you back off. And instead of backing off, you turn around and tell us that fusion is better than jazz and that death metal is better than jazz. But look around, Coypu! It's a jazz thread! Damn, if I knew that I had an entire community of people hating on me, I'd stop what I was doing! What are you doing?

Coypu

January 18th, 2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
well, even if you simply talked about fusion, even that would be fine, but instead, it's metal this and black metal that. I think all of the people who post here on a regular basis have requested that you back off. And instead of backing off, you turn around and tell us that fusion is better than jazz and that death metal is better than jazz. But look around, Coypu! It's a jazz thread! Damn, if I knew that I had an entire community of people hating on me, I'd stop what I was doing! What are you doing?

I am a person who never hate people, nomatter race, taste, attitude or whatever. I like to discuss with people and that is a great way to learn. By diggin deep into your own and others beleifs you can discover things about yourself and others. I have learned alot by theese very hard discussions and I am more humble and have more knowledge than a week ago. You guys must learn to appreciate things and look at the bright side of things. Hopefully some of you have learned a thing or too about DM and Fusion. If I had stay in the standard topics I would had learned alot less than I did now so what happened was for the better good.

And as always, I said that jazz was better AND worse than Fusion & DM, jazz owns when it comes to walking basslines and DM owns when it comes to blastbeats and growling. No genre is superior to another on the whole. Please drop that once and for all now!

jazzypaul

January 18th, 2003, 04:45 PM

No coypu, I will not drop the thought that a bunch of heshers can play music better than I. EVER. Neither will a bunch of other people in this forum. You do not understand that you are attacking sacred ground, and you also do not get that there are other ways to let people know that you want to learn without trashing our artform. But no, you want eerie atmosphere? It's there in Sun Ra's music, and certainly all over the place in free-jazz. You want aggression, and Mingus was too tame? check out Coltrane in Seattle, or Coltrane in Tokyo. It's there. You want basslines that do not groove within the context of swing? It won't be there, but it wouldn't serve the music either, so shut the hell up about it. There are things that death metal does differently than jazz. That does not automatically make the death metal players better at those traits. Once again Coypu, I request that you go check out the forums that you are not on, and look how much happier the conversation is. You are a buzzkill. Please understand this.

Coypu

January 18th, 2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by jazzypaul
No coypu, I will not drop the thought that a bunch of heshers can play music better than I. EVER. Neither will a bunch of other people in this forum. You do not understand that you are attacking sacred ground, and you also do not get that there are other ways to let people know that you want to learn without trashing our artform. But no, you want eerie atmosphere? It's there in Sun Ra's music, and certainly all over the place in free-jazz. You want aggression, and Mingus was too tame? check out Coltrane in Seattle, or Coltrane in Tokyo. It's there. You want basslines that do not groove within the context of swing? It won't be there, but it wouldn't serve the music either, so shut the hell up about it. There are things that death metal does differently than jazz. That does not automatically make the death metal players better at those traits. Once again Coypu, I request that you go check out the forums that you are not on, and look how much happier the conversation is. You are a buzzkill. Please understand this.

it takes two to tango...

"No coypu, I will not drop the thought that a bunch of heshers can play music better than I. EVER. "

Ok, this can easily be solved. Record some diffcult death metal to proove that you can do it better. If you do the Fredrik Thordendal Medley I will back off, ok?

Here is the video of the thing to make things easier for you :

Medley (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Morgan%20%c5gren%20&%20Fredrik%20Thordendal%20-%20Sol%20Niger%20Within%20Medley%20(from%20TRUM).m peg)