V7(alt) lines/ideas.

[Giant Steps]

There are many ways to approach a V7(alt) chord and people seem to find interesting and unique ways of doing it. A few of my favorites are the obvious diminished on the altered tones approach, the half step below the IIm7 approach, and the minor third above the IIm7 approach. I like to work with minor arpeggios.

Our highschool jazz band is playing "Salt Peanuts" and being the only one who can hack through changes, I got stuck with the solo. After practicing over the changes, I realized that at that tempo of 300+bpm I tend to play the solo too similarly each time, especially on the V7(alt) chords. So, ideas that are easy to internalize (and visualize on guitar for my fellow git-fiddlers) would be helpful.


BTW: We're also playing Blue Train and Ornithology by Coltrane and Parker who are my two favorite horn players. So who does my band director give both the solos to? The girl that doesn't know what a maj7 arpeggio is who told me she thinks Kenny G. is better than Coltrane. Errggg...

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[Jazz]

V7ALT's are pretty hard to play over, but you have to remember that you can think of them any way you want while you are soloing.

The scale over a Db7(ALT) would be the diminished whole tone scale right? Thats: Db D E F G A Cb right? If you start from G, you get an enharmonic G dominant-lydian scale! so you could tonicize G over the Db if you wanted, thats called the tritone substitution.

If you already know what a tritone sub is ignore this, I don't mean to sound condescending!

-Try this: Play a G dominant 13th chord rooted on the 5th string, 10th fret. The fret numbers should be this, from lowest to highest pitch: 2nd finger 10th fret (A string), first finger 9th fret (D string), 3rd finger 10th fret (G string), 3rd finger (barred) 10th fret (B string), 4th finger 12th fret (high E string). Now take off your second finger. If you could reach Db on the low E string it would be a Db7(ALT) ! Pretty cool eh? That shows that there isn't much difference between a Db7(ALT) and a G13

The easiest approach I have heard of is to think in chord tones. Find all the unusual or special notes of a chord and emphasize them: a dominant ALT chord has a b9, #9, #11, and a #5. Under no circumstances play the 13th, or the natural 9th (although Parker said you could play anything over anything, as a learning aproach there are always avoid tones.) Also, those chord tones will want to resolve somewhere, either in that measure, or somewhere in the next chord.

That's about all the wisdom I have to offer, I hope it helps a little bit!

[edited a mistake so people don't have to know I'm an idiot! :o ]

[Jazz]

I also noticed with the minor arpeggio a half step below the IIm7 would get you the 13th of the Altered Dominant (Bb in the case of a Db7(ALT) ) which I was told to avoid by various teachers. You would also get the MAJOR 7th instead of the dominant 7th of the altered dominant (C natural).

With the minor arpeggio a minor third above the IIm7 you would get the natural 11th of the Altered Dominant (Gb/F# in Db7(ALT) ) which is DEFINITELY an avoid tone. One interesting thing about this approach is that the 4th of the Cb (a m3 above IIm7 in Db) ends up being the blue note or b3 of the D7(ALT). Also the 13th of the Cb min arpeggio would be the natural 5th of the Db, and that is also another definite avoid tone.

Oh and a II chord to an altered dominant ends up being a IIm7b5 if you take it straight out of the altered dominant itself. So if you wanted to imply a II chord inside an altered dominant harmony, you could play (lets stick in Db) Ab locrian (natural minor, b2 b5) and then switch to Db diminished whole-tone, all over the Db7(ALT) chord.

If I missed anything or made a mistake please correct me, I should know all of this by now.

I hope any of this made sense, I'm looking at it now and it looks pretty confusing. If this is stuff you already knew, I apologize, and if its confusing then feel free to ask questions.

I think I broke my head.

[Giant Steps]

The half step below the IIm7 yields a dom7 with a #4, 13, and b9 sound. The minor third above the IIm7 yields a G+7sus4b9. You do have to be careful to stay away from the 13 in the half-step-below approach and the natural 4 in the minor-3rd-above approach, however, if you play them on the weak beats as passing tones they're actually pretty effective. The other thing I like about the minor-3rd-above approach is that it's suprisingly contrary to the movement of the cadence. I'm also starting to look at the overtone dominant scale for non-altered V7s.

I do know what tritone subbing is but this post wasn't meant entirely for me. Thanks for your reply, though!

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[Jazz]

Ohhhhh.

I thought you were doing a minor arpeggio with a half step below IIm7 as the root. (playing a G minor arpeggio over a Db ALT). I'm still not sure what you mean though, if you take a half step below IIm7 as the root, and using all the notes of the Db ALT, you'll get a G dominant-lydian right? But no b9, in relation to G as the root.

Notice that a half step below IIm7 for any dominant chord is a tritone away from the root. That's why a G13 is called a tritone substitution for Db7(ALT)

[Giant Steps]

Originally posted by Jazz
Ohhhhh.

I thought you were doing a minor arpeggio with a half step below IIm7 as the root. (playing a G minor arpeggio over a Db ALT). I'm still not sure what you mean though, if you take a half step below IIm7 as the root, and using all the notes of the Db ALT, you'll get a G dominant-lydian right? But no b9, in relation to G as the root.

Notice that a half step below IIm7 for any dominant chord is a tritone away from the root. That's why a G13 is called a tritone substitution for Db7(ALT)

I'll give you an example of what I mean:

Half-step-below approach
Progression:
Dm7...G7alt...Cmaj7
m7 arp subs:
Dm7...Dbm7...Am7

Minor3rd-above approach
Progression:
Dm7...G7alt...Cmaj7
m7 arp subs:
Dm7...Fm7.....Am7

The only reason I like these is because they're incredibly simple to think about when the tempo's going by extremely fast and because I know my minor shapes really well. They are shortcuts and I wouldn't use them ALL the time.

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[Jazz]

I've never seen that idea before, I'll try it out one day and see how it sounds.

For a different approach, try playing Db lydian-dominant over the G7alt. Try and tonicize Db as the root of the scale, and see if your ear finds it agreeable..

[Giant Steps]

Originally posted by Jazz
I've never seen that idea before, I'll try it out one day and see how it sounds.

For a different approach, try playing Db lydian-dominant over the G7alt. Try and tonicize Db as the root of the scale, and see if your ear finds it agreeable..

I'll play around with that!

When you try those ideas I posted, keep in mind that they're there for their ease of use. They don't sound amazing by any means, but they work! :)

Good Cheese,
-GS-