How would you describe swing?

[jazzypaul]

Alright, jazzers, back to a happy topic, on the happiest of subjects...what is swing, to you? What swings, and what doesn't, and give examples...

for me, swing is a sense of forward motion or propulsion. It's not just a drummer thing, it takes an entire rhythm section to make something swing good and hard.

something that swings: Milestones, by Miles Davis

something that doesn't swing: the new jane monheit record.

[Big Swifty]

Swings: Stolen Moments.

Doesn't Swing: Nothing in particular comes to mind right now.


Something that makes it swing for me is staying on the back of the beat. Not for more up tempo tunes, but on ballads it works well.

[Jazz]

To me, swing feels like relaxed energy. Even at intense speeds, I love the way it can feel super-energized but laid back at the same time!! I still don't understand how they do that.

[clifton]

Jazzypaul: I agree with your definition, but I would add this: "based on the rhythmic tension created by three against two". Arguably, you could use the word "clave" here, but then you're not talking in lay terminology any more. Nobody ever swung harder than Charlie Parker IMHO.

[Jazz]

Really clifton?? What makes you say that (about Charlie Parker)? The hardest I've ever felt swing was either listening to Gerry Mulligan, or Carmen Mcrae.

[Jazz]

I should add, I wasn't trying to argue with you clifton, I was just wondering if I was missing something in C.P.'s music (which I probably am). I know that my ear is not sophisticated enough to really catch what people like Parker, Coltrane, and Monk were doing in their recordings (although my ear IS alot better than it used to be).

[jazzypaul]

Clifton noted..."I agree with your definition, but I would add this: "based on the rhythmic tension created by three against two". "

This applies, to an extent, but what about non-jazz music that still swings? Stevie Wonder's music definitely swings in its own sweet way, but it's the syncopation that makes it swing, not the 3 against 2 factor. I think there are other examples of that as well, even in the jazz world. the feel might not be swing, but the end result most certainly is.

[Jazz]

I think that swing has the most to do with a steadily implied hemiola, so if a song strongly implies hemiola (not an actual hemiola, but implied) maybe you could consider it to "swing", but just not a "jazz swing"?

[Jazz]

Also, it seems like there is a difference between swinging an eighth note, and the feeling of energy you speak of. Alot of musicians swing eighth notes, but it seems like musicians who REALLY swing hard imply hemiola's with their dynamic accent patterns.

[jazzypaul]

Yeah, I'll agree with that.

[BariMusix]

Swing,
Well the way I see swing in a Jazz setting, i.e. Straight Ahead is in it's simplist form 3 against 2. That syncopation is always in the back of my mind when I'm blowing through tunes in this setting. Even when the drummer is banging away some hehe 'extreme' (sorry I couldn't resist) polyrhythms or even implying another meter, that 3 against 2 is still ticking away. That is how I swing.
Swing also seems forgiving for the beginner and flexible for the adavanced. In the 3 against 2, the second 2 of 2 can be pushed forward, or pushed back to suit your need. An expanded view of swing could be what Jazz posted:
I think that swing has the most to do with a steadily implied hemiola, so if a song strongly implies hemiola (not an actual hemiola, but implied) maybe you could consider it to "swing", but just not a "jazz swing"?
That is indeed an interesting way of seeing swing. That is definitely how latin swings when every instrument adds it's particular polyrhythm to the group. I guess that would be like playing different patterns on different parts of the drum set too. (Wow, who ever said that playing Jazz isn't technically demanding is one soda short a six pack)
I agree with Jazz on dynamics too. They play an important part in giving the swing forward motion or energy as JazzyPaul described so well.
I think there is such a thing as a groove too. Stevie grooves like no other. I was really into Stevie in my funk Tower of Power stage (Pre Mulligan stage hehe.) Superstition grooves like a madman, oh I can hear it in my head now.
JazzyPaul, what you call Stevie swinging I call grooving. I think you are justified in calling what Stevie does swing as it seems to be the popular term for Grooving freakin hard like bowling monkeys! Lol, ignore the bowling monkeys Tower of Power flashback. Well speaking of Stevie, I found a recording of Virtuoso Joe Pass covering "Sunshine of My Life." Wow, talk about amazing, just one guy playing, but it sounds like three! I also found a recording of Carmen McRae covering it as well. If you are interested in em let me know.
Sorry for the Stevie tangent. It's JazzyPaul's fault. :cool: (Just kidding)
Anyway those are some thoughts of mine on swing.

[jazzypaul]

At the risk of turning this into the Stevie Wonder thread, lemme just say this...

1) Swing, to me is the ultimate groove. It is the most elastic groove, it is the most delicate groove, while the same time the most powerful groove. Just think, both the Birth of the Cool sessions AND Remember at Rockafeller at Attica swung! Talk about extreme! Just think, Benny Goodman playing Sing Sing Sing and Ellington playing Diminuendo and Crescendo in Blue were so powerful that they started riots! Not by telling people to break stuff, like Limp Bisquick, or by messing with people's heads, like The Doors, but by simply grooving so hard that it drove people out of their minds!!! Damn! And when you think about how crazy people get hearing Stevie, or James Brown or P-Funk, you gotta put them in the same league. Man, I get excited just talking about this stuff.

2) I will gladly be the cause of any positive rants or tangents about the following causes: Stevie Wonder, Steely Dan, James Brown, P-Funk, Cream, Hendrix, Grateful Dead, Phish or even (ducks) weezer.

3) Toss me any jazz covers of Stevie stuff at anytime. That music works so well as jazz, and it only goes to prove what a great player and writer the man truly is. If you want to groove like a madman, check out Pat Martino and Charlie Hunter's version of Too High. Too Hot is more like it...

[BariMusix]

Swing, to me is the ultimate groove. It is the most elastic groove, it is the most delicate groove, while the same time the most powerful groove.

Agreed, this was the first thing that hooked it's claws into my side and pulled me in.

I will gladly be the cause of any positive rants or tangents about the following causes: Stevie Wonder, Steely Dan, James Brown, P-Funk, Cream, Hendrix, Grateful Dead, Phish or even (ducks) weezer.

Can't say I'm too familiar with Steely Dan, Cream, or Phish, but from what you've showed me in your threads I'll take your word on it. Give me some names of stuff I can download, I'm interested in checking those guys out.
As for Stevie Wonder, James Brown, P-Funk, Hendrix, Greatful Dead, and yes Weezer (no need to duck cause I like them too.)
I'm with you. I really dig early Tower of Power stuff too, w/ David Garibaldi.

Toss me any jazz covers of Stevie stuff at anytime. That music works so well as jazz, and it only goes to prove what a great player and writer the man truly is. If you want to groove like a madman, check out Pat Martino and Charlie Hunter's version of Too High. Too Hot is more like it...

Sure man I'll do that, maybe you could drop me your email in a PM. I had an opprotunity to see Charlie Hunter about 10 years ago at a local jazz festival. At the time I wasn't a big jazzer, being back in my Tower of Power phrase, so I didn't get very much out of the experiance. He was still impressive visually even if my ear couldn't catch everything going on. Lay me down some Pat Martino titles I look forward to expanding my library. Kewl man. Thanks for the input.:D

[Jazz]

You guys rule.

I am barely getting out of my stage of rhythmic idiocy. I'm starting to be able to feel swing in my mind, body, and emotions now, so I'm really happy.

I wish I could say that the intense groove of jazz hooked me, but it was really the beautiful melodies that attracted me. Composing musically valid melodies on the spot just blew me away. It still does, but now I'm understanding the rhythmic side of it better.

[jazzypaul]

From the mind of BariMusix...

"Can't say I'm too familiar with Steely Dan, Cream, or Phish, but from what you've showed me in your threads I'll take your word on it. Give me some names of stuff I can download, I'm interested in checking those guys out.
As for Stevie Wonder, James Brown, P-Funk, Hendrix, Greatful Dead, and yes Weezer (no need to duck cause I like them too.)
I'm with you. I really dig early Tower of Power stuff too, w/ David Garibaldi."

(in best Homer Simpson imitation possible at this late hour...) ooooh, Garibaldi....yeah, he's the man. Quite possibly one of the most underrated drummers out there. Everyone knows who he is, but really knows not much about him. The cat can play some serious music.

Steely Dan: they are truly the closest that rock ever came to assimilating a fusion thing, but they were so subtle about it that the average pop fan went"wow, these guys are different!" but the jazz guys all went, "yeah, you go boys!" I don't know one jazz fan that dislikes them. some personal favorites of mine are FM, Black Friday, Dirty Work, Do It Again, Kid Charlamagne, Babylon Sisters, Aja and Josie.

Cream: If Hendrix was jazz-rock, then Cream is Blues rock. They, much like Hendrix, were highly improvisational, and their music, at its best, is some pretty heady stuff. Clapton's solos are the stuff of legend, Jack Bruce is your average psychotic, meglomaniac bass player and Ginger Baker is the reason I took up drums in the first place. Check these out...Spoonful, Crossroads, Badge, Tales of Ulysses, I'm So Glad, I feel Free, Anyone for Tennis or Cat's Squirel. Cat's Squirrel must have some sort of significance that I don't know about; Jethro Tull put it on their first album too.

Phish: If you mixed The Dead and Talking Heads in a blender, and then sat the mess down with a couple of theory books, Phish is what you would have. Their improvisation style is far closer to jazz than the Dead's was, and at their most brilliant moments, can rock the house and blow your mind at the same time. Try these on for size...You Enjoy Myself, David Bowie, Free, Billy Breathes, Tweezer and Stash. And for a damn good laugh, try Harpua, Fee, Contact or Icculus.

our main man Jazz had the following to say...

"I wish I could say that the intense groove of jazz hooked me, but it was really the beautiful melodies that attracted me. Composing musically valid melodies on the spot just blew me away. It still does, but now I'm understanding the rhythmic side of it better."

No worries man. We all get into jazz in our own ways. For me, it was because Bitches Brew was mentioned in a book of great heavy metal albums, and Spanish Key grabbed the same part of me that early Metallica did. Does that make Miles intense, extreme or in touch with his darker emotions? I dunno. But anyway, yeah, for the first couple of years, I couldn't listen to jazz that wasn't either as out there as Bitches Brew or as bombastic (this is where my love for Mingus came in. I actually made a mix tape with Haitian Fight Song and Milk by SOD side by side...lol). I thought Bill Evans was a pussy! But I came around. And I'm glad I did. I was missing out on some damn fine music. It all comes to you with time and listening. So just sit back and enjoy the ride. And don't consider it rhythmic idiocy. You're not a drummer. It took me quite some time to figure out that I should take up piano so I knew what I was hearing on the bandstand harmonically. Hope that was a fine enough pep rally for ya there...:cool:

[clifton]

Jazzypaul: Your taste in "pop" music is excellent, particularly regarding Stevie Wonder and Steely Dan. Let's inform the board that Wayne Shorter has recorded with Steely Dan ("Aja", which is essentially a jazz piece, IMHO), and Chris Potter has both recorded and toured with Steely Dan. And I would include The Police among superior "pop" groups. However, I don't think there is real swing in your examples, for the most part. As Jazz has said, swing implies forward motion, often accomplished by playing slightly behind the beat. Non-jazz is usually played right on top of the beat. Jazz fusion retains the back-beat but pushes the straight eighth note feel a little, or moves the pocket around. I think drummers Jack DeJohnette, Mike Clark, Brian Blade, and Clarence Penn are excellent examples of inflecting rock and funk beats with swing. Regarding Bird : first, his playing has an urgency and conviction that struck me in a very deep, personal way. Second, if you really listen to Bird's accents, you will hear swing at its most sophisticated and intense. Bird would accent unpredictably, between the beat, behind the beat, creating incredible patterns of tension and release. BTW Eric Dolphy is the only musician I can think of who swung while playing in front of the beat. Also keep in mind I'm not trying to flame anybody, it's just an attempt at informed opinion.

[jazzypaul]

However, I don't think there is real swing in your examples, for the most part. As Jazz has said, swing implies forward motion, often accomplished by playing slightly behind the beat. Non-jazz is usually played right on top of the beat. Jazz fusion retains the back-beat but pushes the straight eighth note feel a little, or moves the pocket around. I think drummers Jack DeJohnette, Mike Clark, Brian Blade, and Clarence Penn are excellent examples of inflecting rock and funk beats with swing.

Well, the whole thing about forward motion (which was mine actually, I only get picky because it's one of three truly smart things that I've said in my life) that I found kind of weird when I thought about it, is that the flaw in the theory is that you have to throw Stevie and JB and P-Funk in there too then, because there is definitely a forward motion to what they do. When I first shared this with someone, they said "hell yeah, Stevie swings!" and I said, "yeah, I guess you're right!." Of course, it's not a jazz swing, but it is a sense of forward motion. Along the same lines of Miles' take on Freedom Jazz Dance. Not one pattern of quarter note, dotted eighth note, eighth note is played in those 7 minutes, but damned if it doesn't swing. And it swings alright, it swings like a mutha.

Of all of the things in the world to argue about, I'm gonna not argue too extensively on this one. I think Clifton might have more playing years under his belt than me, and therefore more experience, and I will defer to the people that know this music more than I do at any time.

I agree with you about both Dolphy and Bird. As much as I love Bird though, and I really do, I still gotta stick with Cannonball for my choice of hardest swingin' cat, excluding drummers, of course. We all swing. :cool:

[bombastic]

Sorry, Dude, it's just my opinion, this is a jazz page. why bring up phish and the noodling grateful dead. i'm grateful that they are dead! why did phish have to go and revive that goofy mentality? the cult band thing just seems so silly, it's more like a star trek fan club than being about music the way they worship these idiots. that's my take on it. jazz is about music, not fan clubs and smoking doobies dude. jazz is great music you don't have to be tripping on l.s.d. to break the bloody boredom and tedium of mindless noodling. i'm playing around with you a little bit, but honestly, i can't stand the mentality behind that music!:o

[jazzypaul]

Man, have you LISTENED to their music? Yeah, the Dead noodled, but they also made some great music. By the time I got into them (I'm 27, saw my first Dead show when I was 12) they were well past their prime, but there were still great musicial moments to be heard, to be sure. Not to mention, their musical conception (from the mid 70's on, anyway) was based on the harmolodic theory. The Other One, Eyes of the World, and other tunes are all relatively jazzy, and are nice listens no matter what. Phish, if you've listened, you will realize, take a jazz tack in their improvisations. Yes, there are idiots who make the immediate comparison between jam bands and drugs. I am not one of them. Yes, this is a jazz thread, and someone asked about Phish, and I was more than happy to share.

[clifton]

Jazzypaul: I think we just hear time and rhythm a bit differently. I come from a bebop background and I've also played fusion, funk, and rock. But the differences in accenting are very subtle and I think we hear rhythm a little differently. No argument, actually, and I'm with you on the improvising rock bands. Also long live James Brown, who was also a big influence on Miles Davis' fusion music.

[Jazz]

Jazzypaul, you can obviously hear some connection in the way some rock/pop "grooves" and the way jazz "swings". I bet you could be one person who makes fusion that's actually VALIDLY called "jazz fusion"...

[jazzypaul]

Thank you, that is amongst the nicest things that anyone has ever said to me...

[bombastic]

I certainly can't tell someone what to like, it goes without saying. i have heard the dead (i grew up in the '60's for christs sake!), i kind of liked their little hits (truckin',uncle johns band) but i can't stand that long, rambling concert music, to me it's just plain tedious.(i'd rather watch paint dry). phish i have heard and it is simply not my cup of tea, and, again, i can't relate to that mentality, turning it into a cutesy little following of worshipers. do you understand what i mean? and if anyone were, god forbid, to start some cult, at least be original, don't steal a dead boring groups audience! :o of course, have a little sense of humor about this, it's just my small opinion anyway. if you enjoy that music, cool.:cool: with so much good jazz to listen to, why would i spend money on a phish c.d.? i'd be embarrassed to be seen with it!:(

[Jazz]

Getting back to the topic...

I'm sitting here listening to a slow soft swing of J.J. Johnson, and all I can say is that the jazz swing is so delicate. Its driving and energetic, but if you don't do it JUST so, it will fall apart, you'll lose it. There's something about that, that is great. The powerful things in this world don't HAVE to be big huge rumbling freight trains, they can be small, but concentrated, like a laser. Jets of water, if it is concentrated enough, can cut through steel, yet water is the ultimate symbol of flexibility, fitting into any container. Yeah its late, and I'm rambling.

[BariMusix]

I'm sitting here listening to a slow soft swing of J.J. Johnson, and all I can say is that the jazz swing is so delicate. Its driving and energetic, but if you don't do it JUST so, it will fall apart, you'll lose it. There's something about that, that is great. The powerful things in this world don't HAVE to be big huge rumbling freight trains, they can be small, but concentrated, like a laser. Jets of water, if it is concentrated enough, can cut through steel, yet water is the ultimate symbol of flexibility, fitting into any container. Yeah its late, and I'm rambling

I agree with what you are saying about swing being flexible. Swing can be delicate like the J.J. you are listening to, or it can be driving like Mingus. That is the beauty of it. That's why jazz can convey many different feeling, emotions, and thoughts. Jazz is flexible. Swing is flexible. Swing can be like the floodgates of the hoover dam opening, rushing water forcing it's way out, Or it can be like a beam of sunlight, highly concentrated but soft, warm. Jazz is indeed beautiful and because it id flexible it has the potenial to hang around for a very long time.

[jazzypaul]

Yeah, isn't it cool that both Waltz for Debbie by Bill Evans and Ascension by John Coltrane swing? It is the coolest groove in the universe. Which is what makes jazz the coolest music in the universe.

[Jazz]

My point is that even the Mingus or Coltrane swing is delicate. Its so precise, if you don't do it just right it will fall apart and sound horrible. I think that jazz is one of the few art forms in this world that show delicate ideas as powerful ones.

[jazzypaul]

and sadly enough, that's why it's lost on so many people these days...

[Jazz]

Yeah, pop culture seems to be simplified versions of artistic media. Television shows instead of theatre, minute-and-a-half pop songs with 2 themes in the whole song (one for the verse and one for the chorus) instead of involved musical development, cartoons and comic books instead of paintings...

Its kind of like fast food for your brain.

[BariMusix]

My point is that even the Mingus or Coltrane swing is delicate. Its so precise, if you don't do it just right it will fall apart and sound horrible. I think that jazz is one of the few art forms in this world that show delicate ideas as powerful ones.
To make sure we're clear on this point let me elaborate what I was saying a little more. I said that swing is flexible. You can manipulate it closer to the dotted eight sixteen or closer to the third triplet. There is room for flexibility. However there comes a point where sloppy playing, i.e. no steady beat or pulse, or stiff playing ect destroys that 'delicate sense' of swing. At that point everything falls apart. I guess my ear has developed to the point where I can hear the difference between Mingus swinging on Moanin and J.J. on Lament. I should realize that people are still trying to develop their ears after listening to all that 2 min pop crap. Please don't feel llike I'm trying to put myself over as I have a lot to learn yet (We should never stop learning) and I feel humble when you guys post things that I have yet to think about. Thanks for you opinions, ideas, and discoveries.

[Jazz]

Actually I guess what I was referring to was the consistency of the swing relative to the precedent that the player has set for whatever mood he wants in the particular song. Even if he is in the correct rhythmic area, if he isn't consistent about what he is doing, it won't swing and the song will fall apart. It will just be mediocre and not great.

Anyways, I prefer to think of that particular thing as being a delicate balance, one note out of place with the feel that the musicians have laid out will mess up the whole phrase.

[BariMusix]

Anyways, I prefer to think of that particular thing as being a delicate balance, one note out of place with the feel that the musicians have laid out will mess up the whole phrase.
Ok, that was a point that I has thought I had responed to but I see that I didn't. Maybe that was in another thread. Anyway, yes, the consistancysloppy playing, i.e. no steady beat or pulse, or stiff playing ect destroys that 'delicate sense' of swing.
This music is a percise music, no doubt. There are no effects to hide behind and you have to cover your own butt so to speak.
I guess what I was saying was that there is room for flexibility, but only for those who know what they are doing. Even if he is in the correct rhythmic area, if he isn't consistent about what he is doing, it won't swing and the song will fall apart. This sounds like another type of music we have been discussiong. I would rather not not mention what genre to save face, but you are right.
Playing this music is not for those who think they can just jump in with out listening, practicing, or studying, and I respect all of those who have spent long hours trying to perfect this art.

[Jazz]

All great points Bari!

I guess I should also clarify that what I am saying applies both to the placement of the swung eighth note (if the player is moving around inconsistently inside of the space between triplet and 16th note shuffles) but also to his melodic rhythmic phrasing (the ways he developes the melody rhythmically speaking: displacement of notes, augmentation, diminution, composition of related rhythmic ideas, and pretty much all of the things you mentioned in another thread. If those things are not also consistent with the "feel" of a song, it will fall apart.

[BariMusix]

I guess I should also clarify that what I am saying applies both to the placement of the swung eighth note (if the player is moving around inconsistently inside of the space between triplet and 16th note shuffles) but also to his melodic rhythmic phrasing (the ways he developes the melody rhythmically speaking: displacement of notes, augmentation, diminution, composition of related rhythmic ideas, and pretty much all of the things you mentioned in another thread. If those things are not also consistent with the "feel" of a song, it will fall apart.
Agreed. If you can't keep a swing well it ain't got that swing. Hehehe

[Brock]

Take the 'A' train when performed by Duke Ellington really swings i think.

As a drummer when i really when drive the band and swing hard its all about being really confident in your part i think. If you dont think your in charge and know your stuff 100% then it really shows to me. A good back beat on snare usally heaps. Its all manipulation on the beat and where to push and pu;ll the time and where abouts on the beat you wanna play.

[jazzypaul]

backbeat? On a swing tune? Ummm, okay. If it gets you gigs, I guess. Never worked for me though...

[Brock]

on 2 and 4? maybe i said the wrong thing. I dunno it just seems to drive the band for me. Im sorta new to all this though so if theres confusion its more likely to be me wrong.

[clifton]

This thread has progressed very well. There's little more I could add except to re-emphasize the importance of playing a little behind the beat, and for instrumentalists, I think you'll swing more if you vary your accents so you mix things up among dotted eighth/sixteenth patterns and triplet patterns. BTW Art Blakey played backbeats and made them swing. Check out "Moanin'", "Hammerhead", "Tell It Like It Is", etc. On the other hand, not many other drummers could have pulled it off.