New member with a question

[Louisville]

I'm new here and have only been listening to jazz extensively for a couple of years. It's good to find a forum that is dedicated to jazz lovers.

My first question for everyone is how do you feel about a singer or musician best known for another form of music dabbling in jazz? I ask because Suzy Bogguss (country singer) is about to release an album titled "Swing." I'm a big fan of Suzy and I've heard her do the material live. She does songs like "Comes Love" and "Do Nothing (Till You Hear From Me)" as well as new material. I think her voice fits the songs very well, but I freely admit I'm a bit biased. Just curious to read what you think of people coming to jazz from a different form of music. Thanks.

[Bev Stapleton]

I wondered what had happened to Suzy Bogguss. I really enjoyed her early albums (and particularly a wonderfully spare concert she did on the BBC about ten years back). Her recordings got a bit too overproduced for my taste as time went by...the curse of Nashville at work!

I'd imagine she'd do this well - she has often sung tunes associated with Western Swing...I think she was on that Asleep at the Wheel tribute to Bob Willis.

The only problem might be that she is entering a very crowded market place. Everyone who is anyone - Willie Nelson, Linda Ronstadt, Rod Stewart, Robbie Williams - have done their 'standards' album.

If she holds onto that Western Swing style she might just pull it off. I'll be interested to hear it.

[Andy D]

I recall that Robbie Williams did a pretty good job and covering some Frank Sinatra stuff, which appealed to many who would not have listen to Frank sing.

Personally I am all in favour of people covering different types of music and blending it with their own particular sound. This can lead to many interesting possibilities, for Jazz and other forms of music and it potentially opens it up to a wider audience.

Regards

Andy D.

[bubber]

This is an interesting topic. I don't mind people from other forms of music having a try at jazz, as long as they're serious about it and have a feeling for the music. As for singers with a c&w background, it's possible to think that they should have a fair chance to grab the "message", because the roots of jazz and c&w obviously have some similar references. To me Eva Cassidy is an example of a singer that probably could succeed in more than one camp.

As an example of the opposite - Kiri Te Kanawa's helpless attempt at jazz (w/Andre Previn a.o), a CD I've kept as an example illustrating that she - at least - should stick to the music she excells in.

[Fran]

There shouldn't be any hard fast rules about it. If a singer does a good job what difference does it make what their "original" genre may be. As I recall Kay Starr came from, and went back to Country. Seems June Christy started with a Western Swing band, didn't she?
And Herb Jeffries. Didn't he turn Cowboy after leaving the Duke-- I guess that was only as an actor.
What was Ella Mae Morse' origin? Texas Swing as I recall.



Keep the Blue Flame Burning

[Andy D]

Yeh I agree no hard and fast rules what works works!

I wonder how many country singers or rock singers have a 'feel' for Jazz, or a reverence for it's history?

To me it is not that important if the singer/group mixing Jazz with another genre takes it seriously. What seems to be important is does this lead to a curiosity about the history of Jazz, the beginning of an interest for it's past and future?

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

Quite a few, I expect.

Purism seems to be a worry for a certain type of fan. When you read most musicians talking about their musical loves they tend to be pretty genre-hopping.

I can't imagine that country musicians are much different.

[Alexander]

Willie Nelson did a very nice album of standards called "Stardust" (produced by Booker T. Jones of Booker T. and the MGs). It's not jazz, but it's well done. Willie has always had close ties to the Great American Songbook (many of his compositions sound like they could have come from the pen of a Cole Porter or a Richard Rodgers), and he has obvious affection for it. I don't mind genre hopping as long as it is done well and in good faith.

[Louisville]

Thanks for the replies! It's always interesting to get other views. If anyone is curious, you can hear samples of Suzy's album at http://bogguss.com/discog/albums/Swing/index.html I think she has a very good feel for the material. It's not western swing, though, even though she co-produced the album with Ray Benson of Asleep At The Wheel.

[Bev Stapleton]

Looks like fun. Most of those pieces are not the usual war horses. I tried a few of the clips and they sounded really nice. Not cluttered.

Might give this one a go.

Thanks for the alert, Louisville.

[EKE BBB]

Originally posted by bubber

As an example of the opposite - Kiri Te Kanawa's helpless attempt at jazz (w/Andre Previn a.o), a CD I've kept as an example illustrating that she - at least - should stick to the music she excells in.

Another example of a diva attempting at jazz (at least at standard repertory) is Barbara Hendricks: Tribute to George Gershwin-It´s wonderful (Angel Records). And she doesn´t sound too badly!

[Scottone]

...and as well as she may have done with Gershwin (which is, after all, Broadway/Hollywood musical stuff), Barbara Hendricks was a crashing failure performing Ellington, with Monty Alexander's trio - live at a festival; can't remember which.
Not many operatic singers are able to sufficiently relax their delivery and phrasing to approximate a genuine jazz feeling.

Bear in mind, though: there is a difference between singing from the Great American Songbook and singing jazz. Willie Nelson, Linda Ronstadt, Carly Simon et al. sang standards; not one of them even attempted to sing jazz. Except for Willie, they all were a tad too self-conscious, too detached from what they were singing (and singing about) to be fully engaging as jazz singers. More like dressing up in Mom's evening gown and makeup...

Being a jazz singer is more than singing with a big band or '40s-style arrangements (go back and listen to Ringo Starr with the Duke Ellington Orchestra, ca. 1972, no less!) I don't accept the guilt-by-association premise: I sing a song Billie Holiday sang; I sing with jazz musicians; ergo, I'm singing jazz.

There's gotta be more to it than that...

[Tenorman]

When someone has been classically trained, then spent a lot of their career singing, or playing classics, I believe that the transistion to Jazz will be quite difficult. Classical musicians are trained to follow the music to the dot. To suggest to them they should take a rest for a couple of beats for effect while the band plays on, must come as a total anathema.

Also, I may be totally wrong here, but I always get the impression that classical singers are projecting someone else's feelings, whereas in Jazz and Blues they need to project their own.

Jazz or not Jazz singers (Aye there's the rub). My own method which cannot be applied very often, for obvious reasons is to find out what the singer does with a second take. If he/she changes the song then that goes a long way towards calling the output Jazz. That is the reason I expect any band or singer doing a live version of a studio recording, to give me a different version.

[Scottone]

Interesting you mention that second-take idea, Tenorman, because I was amused by an article in DownBeat, I believe, covering the Male Vocal Summit a while back. It was a brainstorm of Kurt Elling's, featuring himself, Kevin Mahogany, Jon Hendricks and Kurt's mentor/idol, Mark Murphy.
The writer was in attendance at a rehearsal for the show, and noted that 1) there was quite a bit of planning that went into how things were sung- not exactly the free-wheeling all-star jams of olde; 2) many of the arrangements ideas came from Kurt's MD, Laurence Hobgood, and 3) the final decisions, in moments of dissent, were made by Kurt.
Not especially democratic: could this be just a 'leader for a day' thing, or could it be that, by controlling the flow, he can guarantee that he'll stay in the running with (2, at least) superior performers?
I do like a lot of what KE has done since he stopped picking up Murphy's mail, but I have always felt that while his scatting was engaging, his phrasing in the main body of the song was a little too pat.
I always got a giggle out of claims by fans & writers that his various rants and spoken intros and poetry performances were spontaneous. It always sounds self-conscious and stage-y to me.
Still, he and JD Walter are the only males on big labels doing anything remotely original.
And you're right: I'd really enjoy hearing second takes from their albums.

It's sad that the major companies have begun to treat jazz singers like pop artists, and the jazzers are taking it lying down, for the most part.
A friend of mine had worked with Kevin Mahogany in the early days, before and while he was on enja. He was like a horn in the band, I'm told, soloing and ad-libbing intros and codas, really blending in with the players.
When Warner picked him up, all that stopped: every hiccup was arranged and rehearsed.

Even Diana Krall- love her or hate her- was really reaching for stuff, vocally and pianistically, on her first session with Ray Brown. Then, like Nat Cole, Ella and others before her, Krall toned it way down to sell to the general, not-necessarily-jazz public.
No telling what she'd be like if she was on some tiny Scandinavian label...

We may never hear the likes of a Sarah Vaughan again- a woman so blissfully creative, producers during her Columbia years wouldn't allow her to rehearse with the band, for fear she'd "go too far" with her flights of fancy!
Coming back to the classical/jazz thing, Sass used whatever tonal color suited her mood at the time, and her operatic voice placement was glorious. Then she'd slip off into her little-girl playfulness, her throbbing lower register, or a knowing Sassy-ness- all the while swinging, running the changes and rhythmically recasting the melody like no one else before or since.

All the rough, jagged or uneven edges are being smoothed out for the music video, 3.2-second-attention-span culture we've become. Instrumental jazz may still be music of the moment, but the labels seem to believe the listeners want something different (more? less?) from their vocalists.