The Social Effect of Studying Jazz

[Giant Steps]

In a few other topics there's talk about popular music, its current sad state, the way people eat it up, and the idea that its not so bad to be a rather exclusive group of Jazz loving people. I'm interested in what happens to people socially when they decide to study jazz from a fan's point of view, and most importantly, from a devoted musician's point of view.

When I started to get truly serious about being a jazz musician I know that I, personally, started to feel alienated from my friends and culture. It seemed that jazz and music had become a fundamental part of my being, and that by not understanding it one couldn't fully understand me. It almost feels like the only people I can talk to, and feel like they have any clue what's really going through my head, are musicians. Any other people feel like this?

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[Coypu]

I know the feeling, I have been into extreme music as long as I can remember and it changed my view on almost everything. Being a musician too it is necessary to sacrifice alot your time with friends in order to practice so all things things contribute. I can't even go near a party that plays rap music and I have a hard time respecting people who only listenes to easy going pop music or rock. But it's better than have a few good friends than a lots of bad ones so all is good. And it's always good fun to expose other people to the music I love and to see people slowly be converted into the right way.

[bombastic]

My mother referred to my tenor saxophone today as a trombone. does that answer your question? most folks want to numb their minds to the pablum spoon fed to them by the likes of kenny rogers and barry manilow- what can you do? this is the insane asylum we're living in- medication time, mr. mc murphy.:eek: :confused: :o :( Mr. Coltrane was a Rare Bird.......:cool:

[bombastic]

what's the story with this morbid death metal stuff, man? lighten up,- i'm just fooling around a little bit, but what's behind the death metal obsession? just curious- that poems kinda weird, man-

[Pharaohrock]

Giant Steps, a lot of what your friends perceive is going to be dictated by how confident and secure you seem in your own decision to be a jazz musician and study that music. If you radiate coolness and confidence, people are naturally going to gravitate to you no matter if they have a bias against jazz or not......that's just how human psychology works. whereas, if you exhibit insecurity and you act like you're sensitive to their opinions about the matter, they're going to feast on that and refuel their own bias against jazz, because if for no better reason- one's own insecurity can be a self-fulfilling prophecy in the eyes of others.

If this advice doesn't work, then just get some new friends. Serious. I'm not in favor of submitting people to a jazz-loving litmus test, but if your friends aren't supportive of you in your endeavors by principle, that's another thing entirely. The true test of friends is whether they can support and encourage you in the thing that they might never choose to do themselves......I have a friend who became a Marine for example. Great guy but because of my political orientation to the world, I have trouble supporting people going into the bloody business of warfare. Do I give him a hard time though?? Hell no. I offer my full support to him personally. You won't catch me dead at a rally for the military, but I feel I owe it to him to support him after all he's done for me...

[Coypu]

Originally posted by bombastic
what's the story with this morbid death metal stuff, man? lighten up,- i'm just fooling around a little bit, but what's behind the death metal obsession? just curious- that poems kinda weird, man-

I just beleive that you should try to embrace more than just happy stuff. Most of us fear death and I do to but I try to get in touch with my fears and inner emotions and not just ignoring them. Everything has a part in life and by ignoring this you ignore a part of yourself. I think that most people are capable of killing, torture and similar things. It all depends on situation so by thinking about theese things you can understand yourself better and also become more harmonic. You should try it too.

[jazzypaul]

Actually, coypu, you're on a jazz forum, so before you go telling people to listen to death metal, have something positive to say about jazz. Actually, pages worth of stuff to be said about jazz -- not fusion -- but jazz.

[Coypu]

I don't really see why we have to catagorize jazz and fusion differently. it's not like one's a chicken and one's a cow. It's more like one is New York Strip and the other one is Porterhouse. Both cow, and both better than the taco-bell meat known as smooth jazz.

[bombastic]

Thanks for your cordial response coypu- i didn't mean to call you insane, i was just concerned about that dreadful poem-just playing a little- stay cool. "chewing vomit into a paste"! yeeeecccch!!! i'm all for art, but there are aesthetics to consider even in gothic imagery-poetics. maybe not, ginsberg got pretty perverse- what do i know? just a thought- i agree about getting in touch with your fear and dark side. keep jazzing-

[Giant Steps]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
Giant Steps, a lot of what your friends perceive is going to be dictated by how confident and secure you seem in your own decision to be a jazz musician and study that music. If you radiate coolness and confidence, people are naturally going to gravitate to you no matter if they have a bias against jazz or not......that's just how human psychology works. whereas, if you exhibit insecurity and you act like you're sensitive to their opinions about the matter, they're going to feast on that and refuel their own bias against jazz, because if for no better reason- one's own insecurity can be a self-fulfilling prophecy in the eyes of others.

If this advice doesn't work, then just get some new friends. Serious. I'm not in favor of submitting people to a jazz-loving litmus test, but if your friends aren't supportive of you in your endeavors by principle, that's another thing entirely. The true test of friends is whether they can support and encourage you in the thing that they might never choose to do themselves......I have a friend who became a Marine for example. Great guy but because of my political orientation to the world, I have trouble supporting people going into the bloody business of warfare. Do I give him a hard time though?? Hell no. I offer my full support to him personally. You won't catch me dead at a rally for the military, but I feel I owe it to him to support him after all he's done for me...

I'm very secure about loving jazz and very confident in my other beliefs and my friends are very supportive of me. That wasn't really my point. I was getting at how one can never seem to truly understand me unless they understand what I devote most of my time, energy, and thought to. I've noticed this with other musicians to some degree as well. It's not that I can't make any friends, but a friend that hasn't experienced complete devotion to music can't know me on a deeper level. I don't know, maybe it's all crap! :)

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[Pharaohrock]

I feel you man. That's not easy. Generally speaking the only people who really understand musicians are other musicians...some would say that all artists are kindred souls, but I've had trouble relating to visual artists..they seem to almost use a different part of the brain than musicians do.

For me though the issue is more finding a woman who can hang with my obsession for music....I would love to meet a musician chickie who wants to have musical as well as other varieties of intercourse with me...it ain't easy but I'm gonna find her....we'll shed all the time, make babies together and we can name them Milton for Milton Nascimento, Flora for Flora Purim, Roy for Roy Haynes and "Carlos Jimi" who will just be a complete badass. of course her input will be welcome also... ;p lol.


On that note....any music chicks out there or is this a complete sausage fest ? ....

[bombastic]

one of my favorites, since i was in high school back in 74. the first album i got by him was that one on a&m. i also love flora purim, saw her live with airto in l.a. over 10 years ago at a small club- she did some nascimento songs-they were great. how is her latest disc? the one with" my ship "on it- santanas another guy i like, although i'm not crazy about his recent multi-artist trip.

[Amanda]

Why are jazzy girls few and far between? Maybe that's a new thread question.

(Although there are some nice girlies on my jazzy groups site, address below!)

I'm a newbie to jazz, been learning jazz piano for about 18 months and loving every minute of it. However, apart from DYLJ, I don't know anyone else who loves jazz. My family, friends and work colleagues (I listen to jazz all day long at work) all think I've lost the plot! I get endless sarcastic remarks at work but I don't care - they don't know what they're missing. :cool:

And trying to get find someone to go to a gig with me is like looking for hen's teeth. Once I've persuaded someone to go they whinge all the way there and all the way back!!!! Does anyone else have this problem?

[bombastic]

Great to hear from a woman who's interested in Jazz. I've made a post over at The Jazz Times Website on that very subject. So, you are a pianist? How old are you? I'm a studying tenor saxophonist living down in southwest florida. I've been playing for 2 years so i'm just beginning to get to the good stuff at this point. It takes time and patience to become a competent musician, and there's no rush, so have fun! remember, Rome wasn't built in a day. My teacher told me, Practice makes Better. Remember that. Not Perfect. Practice makes Better. There is no such thing as perfect,so drop that idea, and it will make practicing much easier and alot more fun. Go at your pace, not someone elses. this makes learning music much more rewarding, not a task. who are your favorite jazz musicians? coltrane happens to be my inspiration on my instrument. keep listening intently to this music and don't be concerned about what others think. jazz and other great music is for radical thinkers with open minds-keep your mind wide open- this is what will keep you young throughout your life. jazz lives.

[jazzypaul]

Bombastic, it's a different situation for you though. You've been playing tenor for 2 years and you're probably in your late 40's if not early 50's. It's a hobby for you. For myself and probably a few others on this board, it was "become professional" since day 1. For me, it wasn't practice makes better, take things at your own pace or remember this is supposed to be fun. Instead, I got, what do you mean you only put in 2 hours a day? It all comes down to intent.

[bombastic]

hey paul, i checked out your website and like the jackie mc lean quote. i saw him 2 years ago in l.a. and the guy still cooks. only 2 hours a day? sometimes i'll do 3 if i can. i'm an avid fan of the tenor, and i figure if there's no fun in it, why the hell am i doing it? the other main reason is communication through music. making money has nothing to do with it for me, just as going to church for some folks has nothing to do with making money. music is spiritual fulfillment in my life. i played a little guitar in high school, and have always been a jazz and music lover as far back as i can remember, jazz grabbing me at about age 14. i'm 45 years old now. jazz for me is not a hobby, it's a spiritual interest, as is all music for me. why try to attain perfection when it's just a human concept? just do the best you can on your instrument, and the more you practice, the better you'll get, that's the simple advice i was giving amanda, who sounds like a younger music student to me. the worst thing in the world is a severe teacher, don't you agree- i remember loathing those pedants as a student, and they turned me off to the idea of education, which only after i left high school i learned to appreciate on my own by educating myself by reading, writing, listening and now for the first time playing, not because someone else wants me to do it, but because i love music. jazz lives.

[bombastic]

i appreciate that you respect him as a musician. i was making light hearted humor about the guy as a celebrity. i'll refrain from these remarks in future posts. keep jazzin'.

[Amanda]

One of my favourite pianists is David Newton. I also quite like Thelonius Monk and Oscar Peterson!!!!




BTW I'm 33 (& married!)

[bombastic]

I somehow got the impression that you were a teenager! in the long run it doesn't make that much difference, as the jazz guitarist pat martino once wrote to me in an e-mail, "we're all beginners". the advice works well for me and i figured i'd pass it on to a fellow musician. i tried to get to the website you listed. i am on aol, and was unable to get to it with the info provided.jazz fans are rare, and female jazz fans and musicians are even more rare. maybe that's a good idea , jazz fans dating club, and i ain't talkin' about no kenny g. smooth rubbish here, i'm speaking about Real Jazz! Keep practicing and keep posting here, and tell your Jazz Girlfriends to get over here fast! Jazz Lives! We Need Babes! Intelligent Ones! No britney spears fans, please. Mainstream culture is littered with those airheads.

[Amanda]

I'm a teenager at heart! Even more so, now I've got into jazz. It's almost like a whole new world has opened up and I don't know where to start first!

[clifton]

Amanda: I'm also married, for the most part happily. So I'm wondering if your love of jazz has affected your marriage. I'm 53, been married 21 years, have 2 children. The 19 year old likes jazz. The 11 year old loves jazz, plays alto quite well for his age, and saw Dave Douglas with me at the Village Vanguard and we both loved it. My wife likes jazz, but her taste is very conservative and if I listen to Ornette, Trane, Ware, etc., I listen either alone or with my younger son. (The oldest is away at college). I'd hardly say jazz comes between us but we don't really have a common interest there, at least not in the intensity of feeling about the music. In a way, it helps that I'm disabled and can't work, I can do most of my listening while she's at work. For those married people, I'm curious if jazz is a factor, positive or otherwise, with your spouse and/or your children.

[Dr. B]

Originally posted by clifton
My wife likes jazz, but her taste is very conservative and if I listen to Ornette, Trane, Ware, etc., I listen either alone or with my younger son. (The oldest is away at college). I'd hardly say jazz comes between us but we don't really have a common interest there, at least not in the intensity of feeling about the music. In a way, it helps that I'm disabled and can't work, I can do most of my listening while she's at work. For those married people, I'm curious if jazz is a factor, positive or otherwise, with your spouse and/or your children.

Well, I'm 65, married 44 years this summer, with three children: My son (41) is a surgeon who plays jazz and blues for his and his community's enjoyment; my elder daughter (39) teaches school and listens to nothing but jazz on her commutes; and my younger daughter (34) lives in London and is very eclectic in her tastes, enjoying jazz but not listening to it all that much.

My wife was professionally trained on piano, voice and oboe, and I'd describe her tolerance of jazz in words similar to those you use regarding yours. She goes to conservative straight-ahead concerts with me (I go to sports events and classical concerts with her), and I'd say she enjoys the excitement of a good live performance, but she dislikes honky, bleating saxes, and she has little toleration for emotion as an alternative to musicianship. Yes, like you, I listen to jazz music in my car and mostly, by myself...

Bob

[Pharaohrock]

I've met cats whose girlfriends or wives hated jazz in principle......damn that's a drag. People who act like it's an imposition for them to have to come out to a show.....one guy introduced his wife and said "she really doesn't want to be here, but that's okay." What a drag. One more reason to start the music singles club I could make a fortune off of. lol.

[jazzypaul]

My last long term girlfriend was like that. Bad enough that she didn't like jazz, but she REALLY didn't like what we were trying to put down. To the point that after she left after the second set, regulars came up to me and were like, "what was up with her?" It was bad enough that it finally broke up the relationship when she told me it was either gigs or her. The choice was easy.

[clifton]

Maybe I'm not in such bad shape after all. At least my wife digs Bird and Diz.

[Pharaohrock]

JP, yeah that's some drama. Sorry to hear.....though it reminds me of a similar (yet funny) story an organist i studied with told me; he said his wife gave him an ultimatum.....that he could either choose her or the new B-3 he'd been salivating over. She'd had it with his habit of spending their money on new gear and decided to take a stand. Guess WHAT was still standing and ready to roar?? lol.

I digress now for a really corny joke this same cat told me....(keep in mind he's of the lounge generation.....he played organ in Italian chophouses for years...) Here it goes:

Why are women like pianos?

- Because when they're not UPRIGHT, they're GRAND!



(Apologies to the women in the house who may be offended by this. I throw it out there though because it's generational commentary as much as anything else....)

[3pointdeli]

my wife likes eric dolphy. other than that i never know if she's going to like what i'm listening to. she's made positive comments about monk, but seemed to dislike coltrane. she seems to prefer the less aggressive things...like chico hamilton's "original ellington suite", or brubeck's "time out."

[Dr. B]

Originally posted by clifton
Maybe I'm not in such bad shape after all. At least my wife digs Bird and Diz.

I guess I'd say that my wife very much appreciates and respects Bird and Diz from a historical perspective. She has seen Diz live on several occasions and enjoyed his wit and energy. She'd probably just as soon not have to listen to either of them.

Bob

[champjams]

On Death Metal :

To quote from the recent film, Gladiator, "Death smiles at all men, and all they can do is smile back."


BIRD LIVES

[jazzypaul]

All you do is quote. Do you ever have an original thought? Just wondering...

[champjams]

coming from you jazzpaul, that challenge has intense meaning.

[jazzypaul]

whatever I say should have intense meaning to you my dear.

[champjams]

I'm not your dear. I don't know what you think a "dear" is, but I'm not your dear.

[jazzypaul]

in all honesty, you're not much of anything, far as I can tell.

[champjams]

resorted to name calling....don't forget what that means! :)

[jazzypaul]

it means that you annoy me to no end, for the most part.

[bombastic]

Gladiator was a piece of shit film.

[clifton]

My family gave me Dave Holland's "What Goes Around" and Matthew Shipp's "Equilibrium" for Valentine's Day. My 11-year old youngest son, who also likes Holland, said, "I think you'll love this present." I'm a happy man.

[Oleo]

So much tension... :)

[jazzypaul]

I thank Clifton for the following things...

1) A post made up of more than one syllable sentences.

2) A post made up of more than one sentence.

3) Actually saying something that makes me happy to associate with other jazz fans as of late.

[andreimatorin]

jazzypaul, just let champjams be alright? you're the one who's always inciting stuff... if he wants to use quotes let him be. if you dont want to read his quotes, ignore him! You're acting incredibly childish...

[valo]

AHEM!-(coughs loudly in a quiet room in order to gain everyone's attention, hoping to get back to the subject)

I guess I should count myself among the luckyones as far as jazz and my marriage goes...

The first date my wife and I went on was to a Cecil Taylor concert. I guess I had enough belief in her that she would hear the meaning in his music, rather than just think Iam some freak...

How do you guys with less tolerant significant others try to educate them in order to make them understand/appreciate more extreme forms of music?

[clifton]

Jazzypaul: Thanks for the props. When you and I and PRock discuss jazz, we may disagree, but we've got deep knowledge, respect for the music, intellect, and civility. As for you-know-who, and the other you-know-who, the trick is to hold your fire and not be baited. Anyone who disses jazz or one of the jazz idioms isn't making a reasoned argument. He or she is making an ideological statement. "Metal is more intense than jazz" or "Dave Douglas is irrelevant" is musical ideology. But there is hope for the champ. An 18-year-old who loves bebop, especially an Okie 18-year-old, is still a good thing. I'd rather try to find common ground with chamj, see if that works. JP, keep your band going, that's what's important. Downside: disability prevents me from visiting Chicago, meeting Vonski, sitting in with your band, wherein we could play a B-flat blues. At any tempo. Or a Monk tune, or "Impressions" at mm=300 if you want. Oh well. Now as to valo: I have some common ground with my wife. I'll take that and not try to convert her her to anything beyond Duke or Diz. As for my kids, we always had music on, jazz, rock 'n' roll, classical, Broadway, about 65% jazz, I guess. The kids would hear it, dig it, ask what it was. We never proselytized. Exposure did the trick. For my wife, too, she just couldn't get beyond bop or "Kind Of Blue".

[JamesJazz]

When I started to listen to jazz, in 1968, it was after I'd heard Sun Ra.
I went out the next day and bought two Sun Ra records. I ended up moving from rock fully into jazz.
I started to carry my favorite jazz records around with me. I'd play them for anybody, anytime. At the drop of a hat. I noticed friends were avoiding me, at least I wasn't getting many party invites any more.
The predictable happened: I ended up with friends who were heavily into jazz.
That transition took place over thirty years ago. And all of my friends, many of whom I first met 'back then', are heavily into jazz, either as musicians, writers or promoters.
Life is good.

[andreimatorin]

Jazz hasn't really had any negative social effect on me... My friends are fascinated that i play it. And girls like it... Only drawback, is not being able to go out sometimes cause ur practicing, but the way i see it is that you have ur choices in life. If i choose to practice it's cause i'd rather do that, so it's not really a drawback, i'm doing what i want to.