Defining Jazz and Fusion

[Coypu]

Can someone give me some clear ways to decide whether a group is jazz, fusion or something else. What I want is things that can be proven with musical theory if possible and not anything based purely on opinion. Any views on this are welcome.

[jazzypaul]

Coypu, the problem with your question is that no, contrary to opinion by some on this board, you cannot define EVERYTHING with music theory, necessarily. Not in a concise way anyway. What ends up happening is that you may say that being that fusion is based on rock that the syncopation occuring in the beat of the music is now based on the bass drum, and not the ride cymbal, but that really gets you nowhere. Because now, Lou Donaldson's work in the late 60's is suddenly fusion. And it's not. By that same token, a few things from Tony Williams' Lifetime are now jazz, when they are clearly fusion. So, what defines Fusion, and differentiates it from jazz? Well, even that is a tricky question...

A lot of it, really is aesthetics and instrumentation. Fusion is largely electric. Jazz is mostly acoustic. Fusion is rock based in its rhythms and volume, Jazz is swing based and far quieter. Jazz is based on repeating forms, Fusion, coming out of rock, is far more vamp based (some of it anyway. There is some very complex fusion out there.) What it comes down to is, although Fusion is instrumental (in some people's minds, automatically making it jazz) it has far more to do with progressive rock than it does with jazz. Fusion doesn't swing, I haven't heard a lot of it that incorporates a deep feeling of the blues. Yes, there is sometimes improvisation, but it's on a different level. Jazz is far more group oriented as well. Everyone's solos build off of everyone else's ideas. Fusion, being grounded to a backbeat and ostinatos, doesn't allow for that kind of improvisation as much. Therefore, the soloist becomes far more like Steve Vai than Paul Bollenback.

I hope this at least helps a little bit...

[Coypu]

Well, it was abit vague so I'm still pretty confused. You said earlier than Tribal Tech was more prog rock than Fusion right? That just doesn't make sense according to what you just wrote.

And take the band Pestilence, they had lots of jazz influences and the only DM influnce they had left in the end was the vocals. I doubt that you would call them Fusion but they certainly have more fusion elements than DM for example.

example (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/pestilence%20-%20Personal%20Energy.mp3)

can you clear this up and explain your view on tribal tech, some of their songs are almost pure jazz.

[jazzypaul]

Actually, it defines Tribal Tech pretty clearly as fusion. I don't know what you're missing, outside of the fact that you're dying to call Tribal Tech fusion. Also, while I'm here, how can Coypu, aka Mr. "It's only good if it's technically ridiculous music" not like Zappa. It's kind of like Bill Gates saying that he doesn't like computers.

[Coypu]

I don't think that Zappa did alot of killer songs, surely he was experimental and a brilliant guy in his own way but his music didn't blow me away, I just think that it sounded abit too much like filler songs without real focus. I haven't heard all his material though so maybe I just missed the best stuff.

Hey you're the guy who says that Tribal Tech hardly is fusion so I just wanted it cleared up.

Can you tell me why pestilence isn't fusion? (or maybe they are)

[jazzypaul]

I thought I had touched on this in another thread, but I'll address it here too. Again, fusion, if we're going to address it as a sub-genre of jazz, and not rock/metal/death metal, would need to have elements that are by far and wide evident in the timeline of the african-american elements of music. Pestilence (if they fall into the same category as Meshuggah, Dillinger Escape Plan or Cynic), again, has far more to do with progressive rock (rock played from a technical point of view) than with fusion (jazz played with both heavy R&B and rock elements).

Joe's Garage had no focus? Yikes...

[Big Swifty]

Originally posted by Coypu
I don't think that Zappa did alot of killer songs, surely he was experimental and a brilliant guy in his own way but his music didn't blow me away, I just think that it sounded abit too much like filler songs without real focus. I haven't heard all his material though so maybe I just missed the best stuff.


Filler is the complete opposite of FZ's music . . . and "without real focus"? Please:rolleyes:.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I thought I had touched on this in another thread, but I'll address it here too. Again, fusion, if we're going to address it as a sub-genre of jazz, and not rock/metal/death metal, would need to have elements that are by far and wide evident in the timeline of the african-american elements of music. Pestilence (if they fall into the same category as Meshuggah, Dillinger Escape Plan or Cynic), again, has far more to do with progressive rock (rock played from a technical point of view) than with fusion (jazz played with both heavy R&B and rock elements).

Joe's Garage had no focus? Yikes...

Pestilence really mixes it all up, I guess I will leave them undefined for now. One guy called them Space Ambient Death Jazz Rock, so it's hard to say.

I get the fusion now pretty well now so I think I got it.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Joe's Garage had no focus? Yikes...

Well it's a cathy song but even Mr Bungle put it to shame. But oh well, it's has some focus so okay.

Filler is the complete opposite of FZ's music . . . and "without real focus"? Please.

Well Zappas songs doesn't really blow my mind, they are interesting but never seem to really to killer songs. Only odd and while good abit unmemorable in the end.

[Big Swifty]

Originally posted by Coypu


Well it's a cathy song but even Mr Bungle put it to shame. But oh well, it's has some focus so okay.



Well Zappas songs doesn't really blow my mind, they are interesting but never seem to really to killer songs. Only odd and while good abit unmemorable in the end.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about the ALBUM, but of course you wouldn't know that, because you never take the time to listen to a full one unless it's one of your favorite bands.

[jazzypaul]

I was indeed speaking of the entire album. What's the tune that's in 19/16 again? You can't play a tune like that without being intensely precise. Oh wait, I forgot. It's not extreme enough. What was I thinking?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I was indeed speaking of the entire album. What's the tune that's in 19/16 again? You can't play a tune like that without being intensely precise. Oh wait, I forgot. It's not extreme enough. What was I thinking?

well spastic ink had a 1/64 measure so beat that if you can...

[jazzypaul]

a 1/64 meter tune would just mean 1 64th note per measure. Which, at that point, can't even be musical. So, instead of beating it, I'll just not listen to it.

[Coypu]

the song have measures in 4/4 too so it is still a real song, and it is damn good too.

[jazzypaul]

The question is, if a tune is in 1/64 or 4/4, why try to compare it to Zappa, when the Zappa tune is obviously more complex? If you're going to be the theory guy, be the theory guy that knows theory. If you're going to be the "extreme music" guy that knows extreme music guy, know its plusses and its limitations. But if you're going to post on a jazz board, post about jazz.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
The question is, if a tune is in 1/64 or 4/4, why try to compare it to Zappa, when the Zappa tune is obviously more complex? If you're going to be the theory guy, be the theory guy that knows theory. If you're going to be the "extreme music" guy that knows extreme music guy, know its plusses and its limitations. But if you're going to post on a jazz board, post about jazz.

His music is often refered to as Fusion and Ron himself was pretty happy with that definition so his stuff belongs here just as much as Zappa or Coltrane.

Well, Zappas music sound simple compared to most of Ron Jarzombeks works, you mentioned that you wanted intensly precise stuff so you could expect to have Ron Jarzombek as an example comming. You asked for it my dear friend.

Now go and listen to his stuff so you know what you are up against : http://www.spasticink.com/cds.html

[jazzypaul]

I just listened to as much as I could from the sound samples. What does this have to do with jazz, at all? Where's the blues feeling? Where's the groove? Yeah, it's complex (I never asked for complex, just shocked at how inconsistant you are), but complex without a groove and without a hummable melody (sorry, not hummable at all. By comparison, even Trane's SOLO in Giant Steps is hummable) is barely even music. It's chops for chops sake, which is not the point of jazz. So, again, what does this have to do with jazz?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I just listened to as much as I could from the sound samples. What does this have to do with jazz, at all? Where's the blues feeling? Where's the groove? Yeah, it's complex (I never asked for complex, just shocked at how inconsistant you are), but complex without a groove and without a hummable melody (sorry, not hummable at all. By comparison, even Trane's SOLO in Giant Steps is hummable) is barely even music. It's chops for chops sake, which is not the point of jazz. So, again, what does this have to do with jazz?

Lots of this guys stuff is hummable, but some is not. Some of his work is fusion and the reason I brought him up was since you brought up Zappa and time signatures so I thought that I would show you the good stuff. You should be happy.

[jazzypaul]

I didn't hear one hummable melody on four albums worth of samples. Technically precise is only worthwhile if it makes MUSIC out of it. There's no music there. Just chops. It's not jazz, it has nothing to do with jazz whatsoever.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I didn't hear one hummable melody on four albums worth of samples. Technically precise is only worthwhile if it makes MUSIC out of it. There's no music there. Just chops. It's not jazz, it has nothing to do with jazz whatsoever.

Here is some hummable songs :

Yum Yum Tree (http://www.spasticink.com/28.mp3)
Snuff (http://www.spasticink.com/18.mp3) Melodramatic Chromatic (http://www.spasticink.com/06.mp3)