American vs. European jazz

[valo]

What differences, if any, do people see in the way American players interpret jazz and the way European players interpret jazz? This question could be approached philosophically and/or musically.

I would also be curious to know how the following idea about jazz could be reconciled with the fact that jazz is most certainly a global music, played by people of all ethnic backgrounds:

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Again, history comes up. Yes, jazz moved geographically. Yes, jazz fused with other styles. But the best fusions, from Jelly Roll Morton to Dave Douglas have always been done with other musics that draw from the black experience.

Is it the feeling of the black experience that is being used, or are non-American players simply interpreting black musical forms?

[lazy bird]

Althouth there are a lot of European jazz artists who play like their American colleagues, some try to create a 'Europan' jazz idiom. I prefer the second sort of mucisians. Artists like Louis Sclavis (France) , Jan Garbarek (Norway) , Michel Portal (Fance), Gianligui Trovesi (Italy) to name a few, fuse the folk music of their home country with jazz. In the sixties European mucisians like Alexander Von Schlippenbach (Germany), Peter Brötzmann (Germany), Fred Van Hove (Belgium) Evan Parker (UK) and Misha Mengelberg (The Netherlands) created a European avant garde jazz based on the music of American free jazz artists like Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor,...

[valo]

Europeans have in general brought a new perspective to jazz in a number of ways...

1) By using the folk music of their own countries (just as composers like Bartok did) they have added a new syntax to jazz. in the early twentieth century the first jazz players took a folk form (the blues, gospels) and fused it with marching band rhythms and a broader variety of instrumentation to create the first idea of jazz. A lot of the European players have gone through the same process. A great non-european example of this is Anouar Brahem, the oud player, who has made some great albums for ECM. the lyrical, haunting middle Eastern melodies go great with improvisation...

2) the european Avant-Garde did indeed take off from where Ayler, Taylor, Coltrane Braxton and others started, but they added their own twist, and in cases like the dutch trio clusone 3, added a brand of humor that the American Avant-garde has often lacked...

3) Here in finland a jazz players have described their approach as focusing more on softer moods and touch rather rhythm (check out the Swedish pianist Bobo Stenson and his trio album "Serenity" on ECM for a grea example of this...

[joesilver]

I like the European players who have been named thus far. I would add one of my favorites, Danish bassist Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen. He has not only been a sideman par excellence for a staggering array of American jazz greats (starting with Bud Powell, with whom he recorded in 1962 at age 15), but has recorded several noteworthy albums under his own name. He has beautifully assimilated the vocabulary of American jazz, but also displays a unique sensibility that is influenced by his Danish heritage.

In general, I think Europeans have an advantage in that they might not feel as much pressure to adhere to the "jazz tradition" as Americans might; they can bring a fresh, original perspective to the music — in much the same way in which West Coast music branched off in some different directions from New York jazz orthodoxy in the post-war period.

[valo]

Originally posted by joesilver
In general, I think Europeans have an advantage in that they might not feel as much pressure to adhere to the "jazz tradition" as Americans might; they can bring a fresh, original perspective to the music

Good point. the distance from the tastemakers of American jazz is vast enough that there is no constraint. Americans can be somewhat protective about jazz at times (the ones who actually care of course-and why not? It is one of America's only truly original art forms).

Furthermore, there aren't the same cultural perceptions of where jazz comes from. Europeans have typically always seen it as an "art", whereas in the States it was known as entertainment first and foremost. this could encourage more of a desire to try different things...

[Pharaohrock]

Interesting you just said that....it's a complete generalization, but I don't think a lot of Europeans really feel the need to incorporate blues into their music...the warmer-region countries are more likely to though, for whatever that's worth...does seem to be the case.

[valo]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
it's a complete generalization, but I don't think a lot of Europeans really feel the need to incorporate blues into their music...the warmer-region countries are more likely to though, for whatever that's worth.

I can't speak as much for the warmer regions, but in Scandinavia the trend seems to be towards fleshing out their own material. The melodies seem to be more abstract, but they don't always sound "out" either...

check out finnish drummer/composer Edward Vesala. You'll never hear the blues in his compositions-you are more likely to hear tangos. "Heavy Life" on Leo records is a good place to start, or "Ode to the Death of Jazz" on ECM (it would be easier to find probably..)

[joesilver]

Originally posted by valo
..."Ode to the Death of Jazz" on ECM...
Hmmm... Death... Jazz... There's no escaping it... :eek:

[GA Russell]

I liked a great deal of European jazz in the 60s. I think I like every record with Daniel Humair on it! I've also liked much of the West Coast Jazz school.

I believe that both exhibit a "white" sound, as opposed to the "black" sound of Blue Note recordings for example. Whether this is an absence of the blues, or something else, I don't know.

I've also wondered whether the musicians have the ability to play the others' school. If a baseball player has never laid down a bunt, I assume he can't.

It may be that what most think of as the "black" sound is really the "New York" sound, and of course the European and West Coast recordings were made independent of the New York scene.

[lazy bird]

Some white European jazz artist, Belgian guitarist and harmonica player Toots Thielemans f.i., play with a lot of blues feeling.

[valo]

Originally posted by GA Russell
I've also wondered whether the musicians have the ability to play the others' school. If a baseball player has never laid down a bunt, I assume he can't.

Nice logic, but in the end faulty. Maybe approach it with the idea that some players don't need to bunt (e.g. Barry Bonds) or other players are not asked to bunt, or even hit for that matter (i.e. pitchers). They don't need to because they have other skills that are equally as valuable to the group effort.

It also seems as if you are stopping just short of trotting out the time-worn stereotype that Europeans can't swing. A few listens to Django Reinhardt, Han Bennik, John Tcahai, Tomsaz Stanko-among others-is enough to put that idea to rest.

More importantly though, most Europeans (and West coasters) had/have a different conception of swing (just like everybody else does). That might to contribute to this idea of some players sounding 'white' and others 'black'. (Those lables themselves are a little misleading-some players just choose to emphasize different aspects of the music.)

I think Europeans just started from a different place when coming to jazz. By not being in the middle of the developments, they were free to pick and choose elements they wanted to, the elements that spoke to them the most.

[jazzypaul]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Earthworks yet. In listening to their music, and especially after talking with Bruford himself for an extended period of time, I realized that there's really not much down home about what he does. Instead, he intellectualized the music, almost to the extent of playing jazz with a Yes or King Crimson vibe. It's really cool to hear, a band doing odd time signatures left and right (it's a drummer's band if ever there was one) that is taking just as much from the classical world as they are from the jazz world, while seeming to make a concious decision to ignore the roots of jazz. The music that is made through those filters is absolutely mesmerizing. EST, while not so time signature heavy, seems to go about their thinking in much the same way. Either way, it makes for some fun music.

[GA Russell]

Valo, if Barry Bonds has never bunted, I assume he can't.

Don't assume I think the white sound doesn't swing. I like it!

[Big Swifty]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I'm surprised no one's mentioned Earthworks yet. In listening to their music, and especially after talking with Bruford himself for an extended period of time, I realized that there's really not much down home about what he does. Instead, he intellectualized the music, almost to the extent of playing jazz with a Yes or King Crimson vibe. It's really cool to hear, a band doing odd time signatures left and right (it's a drummer's band if ever there was one) that is taking just as much from the classical world as they are from the jazz world, while seeming to make a concious decision to ignore the roots of jazz. The music that is made through those filters is absolutely mesmerizing. EST, while not so time signature heavy, seems to go about their thinking in much the same way. Either way, it makes for some fun music.

Bill's one of my favorite musicians alltogether, and Earthworks is just great. I'm envious of you for just being able to meet him, let alone talking with him for a while!

[omar zamora]

The best European Jazz has a distinct identity. At this point, Jazz has developed so much in Europe that no one can accuse them of being copycats.

There are a lot of strands. The Euro free improvisors (like the post-SME players in Britain) have pretty much abandoned Jazz, which is not to say that they haven't taken the best aspects and learned from them, nor that they don't respect and love Jazz music. It's just that they're doing their own thing.

The Italians have done a good job at mixing Italian folk music and other sounds to create a unique and beautiful mess. Pino Minafra, Gianluigi Trovesi, Carlo Actis Dato, etc - they're all great.

And then there's the New Dutch Swing either from the ICP or the Willem Breuker Kollektief/BVHAAST. One can hear they've learned from the entire tradition of Jazz and European classical music, mixed in with a good dose of humor and fun.

Germany has a rougher take on Free Jazz, with Brotzmann, Schlippenbach, etc. Schlippenbach is also quite capable of playing in the tradition, such as with much of the Berlin Contemporary Jazz Orchestra. But he can go out when he wants to.

There's a lot more.

[valo]

GA Russell, sorry for getting a little too overzealous. I was looking to make a point and ended up getting snotty. No hard feelings?

Moving on, there has also been a strong movement to incorporate modern dance beats into jazz in Europe. Some French and Norwegian players seem to have really gone that direction recently.

Nils Petter Molvaer (Norway) takes his starting point as Miles' 70s experiments, and has since incorporated layers of electronica and some of the more aggressive jungle beats. But then he adds his wistful trumpet sound to the mix. The result can be stirring...

If we really want to stir things up we should talk about another Norwegian, pianist Bugge Wesseltoft. A couple years ago there was an article in the New York Times about him, in which he talked about how jazz in the States was "a museum" and that he hadn't heard a good recording come out of America in the last twenty years!! Moreover, he calls his band "New Conception of Jazz" (nothing like a snappy, roll-off-the-tongue kind of name, huh?)

[lazy bird]

I've heard a lot of recent American jazz that is a lot better than Bugges 'New conception of jazz': Masada, Medeski Martin & Wood, Wayne Shorter's footprints live, ...

Check this Dereck Baily cd if you're interested in drum 'n bass influenced jazz:

http://www.lamediatheque.be/Mediaquest/Recherche?ACTION=Details&REFERENCE=UB0214

[liamw]

Didn't Michael Zwerin write something to the effect that sometime around 1960 all the best jazz players in the world were Belgian? Ofcourse he didn't mean it literally, but it's true that there are interesting concentrations of talent in surprising places.

In the 50s and up til a little later, though, all jazz players, in Belgium or wherever, were working with pretty much the same (Black, American) set of influences. Since then things have opened up quite a bit. It's not surprising that European players, like their mostly white counterparts of the West Coast school, would have emphasized the European harmonic aspects of the music, to the extent that they did. But I don't think it's possible to generalize. Also, many of the Eurpoean musicians in the 50s got to play quite a bit with the great American musicians of the day, who went frequently to Europe ... many lived there, after all. Bobby Jaspar (one of Zwerin's famous Belgians) not only played with JJ Johnson for awhile but was also married to the wonderful singer, Blossom Dearie. (An idea for a new thread: jazz marriages?)

[D.D.]

Bev (and others, of course), wanna jump in?

I am waiting for the forum to get a bit (more) organized (we DO need the Recommendations section) so that I could start bragging about my new Italian jazz acquisitions...

[Bev Stapleton]

Only to say, at this point, how nice it is to see so much enthusiasm and knowledge about this side of the pond.

There's never any 'versus' to my ears. There are marvellous American and marvelous musicians from Europe.

There are distinct identities in general but plenty of examples of musicians from one side whose sensibility extends to the music of the other.

Two examples: Dave Douglas is undoubtedly an American musician yet much of his music shows a great affinity for many of the styles to be found in music. And the music of the Italian drummer Tiziano Tononi who appears to be part of a group of musicians who distance themselves from the idea of using local folk music in jazz, preferring to explore the legacy of the great US black jazz of the past.

It's especially nice to see Pino Minafra's name here, a trumpeter I have a special liking for.

[Uli]

I always find the premises of these discussions a bit faulty. Overgeneralizations. That's not to say that there are different local developments with different emphasis around strong influential players or groups of players. I am really not sure that there is a "Euopean Jazz" or an "American Jazz" It maybe that's because i live in a different town than either New York or the West Coast. Chicago certainly has it's own share of difference from the East coast or the West coast and so probably has Norlins, Texas and many other places. At the same time you have a lot of echanges and playing together going on. I see it more as any other paradox of globalisation.

[Bev Stapleton]

You are right, Uli. It's too easy to generalise. I try not to use the term 'European Jazz'...I prefer jazz made in Europe.

Having said that there are broad distinctions - there is a certain flavour to a fair amount of Italian jazz or Scandanavian jazz or Scottish jazz. Not everyone has it, its hard to pin point and the 'nationality' of the music is less important than its quality.

One thing which points to the emergence of broad styles is the way that you get reactions against what is thought of as a prevailing syle within particular geographical areas.

The Tononi example is a case in point. Another good example is a Scandanavian group called Atomic who play an Ornettish free-bop style in open reaction against both the glacial style of ECM-ish Scandanavian music and the 'beat' dominated style of the Scandanavian Nu-jazz.

[bubber]

I think Bev sums it up quite nicely. Re the Scandinavian scene, however, there's also a fourth "stream", an integration of jazz and contemporary "classical" music avant garde.

You're also right about Atomic being kind of a reaction to the glacial style of ECM-ish Scandinavian music, or fiord jazz that it also has been called. During the last few years some of the young and extremely talented musicians in Norway have
proclaimed that they think it's time again to investigate the
Afro-american roots of the music. In addtion to Atomic there are groups like Urban Connection, The Core a.o. that delivers some intensily swinging music in kind of a contemporary acoustic mainstream - both pre and past Ornette.

So I guess the European scene is a very multifaceted one, and IMO that's a healthy condition.

[Bev Stapleton]

I was listening to the Atomic CD on Friday night and was strongly reminded of Jarrett's American Quartet of the 70s. The Ornettish tunes they used to do.

Should appeal to anyone who loved that band.

[hepcat1950]

This topic has always confounded me. Some comments (not only at this Jazz Bulletin Board) seem to imply that Americans got a different genetic code containing a specific jazz sequence which is missing in the genetic code of Europeans.

Even the different cultural background of Americans and Europeans doesn't seem to be a sufficient explanation of the differences between the jazz idioms of both continents.

Let's have a look at the biography of a jazz musicians I happen to be pretty familiar with: Pat Metheny.

The following quotes are taken from an interview conducted by Dr. Joe Barth for Just Jazz Guitar (http://www.justjazzguitar.com/) [highlights by hepcat]:

JB: When were you first drawn to the guitar?

PM: I come from the middle of the generation that viewed the guitar almost as an icon of some sort of youthful revolution. It began in the 50's and continued into the 60's, when I caught the wave. It was most personified through the Beatles, and I was about 7 or 8 when the Beatles began to have hit songs. They brought to my mind a consciousness concerning the guitar that wasn't there before. Even though I come from a very musical family, the guitar was considered kind of a secondary instrument. My older brother Mike, was 8 or 9 and already kind of a child prodigy on the trumpet and my mother's father was a professional trumpet player all his life. I started playing trumpet when I was about 7 under the teaching of my brother Mike, who is five years older. Our family was very serious about classical and concert band music, but we were in Lee's Summit, MO, which is in the center of the country music aesthetic. Around town there were guitars everywhere. I remember at the local barbershop there would be all these guitars hanging on the walls, and when there were no customers, they'd get played. So, my first exposure to the guitar was a combination of the Beatles, the rock and roll thing, and the country thing. My family really looked down on rock and roll, but seemed to tolerate the country music that was so popular in my town. The musicians that my family looked up to were trumpet players like Maurice André and Doc Severinsen.

...

JB: Were there any guitar players in Lee's Summit that inspired you?

PM: Not in Lee's Summit. There were just guys, like my friend's dad, who got together to play country and bluegrass music. On Friday and Saturday nights you'd find five or six guys sittin' around playing guitars, mandolins and banjos. Bill Monroe was the player these guys all looked up to. I'm sure it wasn't high-level playing, but it was what I first listened to when it came to guitar music. The Beatles movie "Hard Day's Night " came out around then and I saw it about 15 times. My friends began getting guitars for Christmas and birthdays and, of course, I wanted a guitar too. My parents' first reaction was "You will never bring a guitar into this house, " which at that stage of my life was like throwing gasoline on a fire; then I wanted a guitar even more. Finally, I convinced them that if I earned the money, their Christmas gift to me could be just the permission to use that money to buy a guitar. I had a paper route, saved my money, and got my first guitar.

JB: How old were you?

PM: I was eleven. Within a couple of weeks I learned the themes to "Peter Gunn " and "Batman. "

JB: You taught yourself?

PM: I did take a couple of lessons at the local music store. But it didn't help me because it was like "Mel Bay book 1…E, A, and D chord " kind of stuff, and all I wanted to play was Beatles songs. But, about that same time something important happened: my brother brought home a new record by Miles Davis. When I heard that record, I immediately gravitated toward it.

JB: Do you recall which album it was?

PM: Four & More. It's an album that Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams and others made with Miles. You know, you hear people say that jazz is a style of music that people need to acquire a taste for, and that love for it takes time to develop, but for me it was immediate. For this eleven-year old kid, it was like the light switch came on. It was the most exciting, fascinating, intriguing, interesting music that I had ever heard. Of course, I had no idea what they were doing. I mean, it is an extremely advanced place to "jump into the pool. " On that album they were beginning to look at a more abstract way of thinking about bebop that continued throughout the 60's with Miles' greatest quintet with Wayne Shorter.

This happened in Lee's Summit, Missouri, USA. A boy growing up in a musical family, but the trigger was a recording brought by his brother. The same could have happened in Castrop-Rauxel, Germany or Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK or Orange, France or.....

What followed was a lot of practicing, playing with bands, a short (due to his outstanding talent) attendance to the University of Miami, etc.

That's a biography which could also fit to a lot of European jazz musicians. In fact a lot of European jazz musicians (and musicians from all around the world) study at music schools in the USA.

What remains different is the musical "environment" in which the musicians grow up. That definitely has been different in the first half of the 20th century, but that has already changed with the beginning of the second half of the 20th century, and it changed dramatically with the introduction of worldwide broadcasting and again with the introduction of the internet. Bands are touring worldwide, and have fans all over the world. Some German pop bands have/had their most abiding fans in Japan. Some American jazz bands have more performances in Europe than in the US.

Think of some European musicians who made parts of their careers in the US. German clarinetist Rolf Kühn had been a member of Benny Goodman's band from 1958-1960, and he led the band for two years during Goodman's absence. He had been the solo clarinetist of the Tommy DorseyOrchestra successing Buddy DeFranco. Austrian pianist Joe Zawinul [R.I.P.] came to the USA at the end of the '50s, and played with Dinah Washington and Julian "Cannonball" Adderley, before he joined Miles Davis to help to create some of the best albums of Miles' expanded work. Then he co-led one of the most successful bands of all time with Wayne Shorter for 16 years: Weather Report. An Austrian composing standards like "Mercy, Mery, Mercy", "Walk Tall", "Birdland", and - not to forget - "In A Silent Way".

I bet a lot of jazz enthusiasts would be pretty helpless :shrug: when asked in a blindfold test to tell whether it's been some American or European musician.

[1/2 Baked, Not Fried]

Some comments (not only at this Jazz Bulletin Board) seem to imply that Americans got a different genetic code containing a specific jazz sequence which is missing in the genetic code of Europeans.

They're right. All my life, I've had a natural, inexplicable aptitude for war drums. Then, I discovered the dirly little family secret: turns out, I'm 1/64th Cherokee! :secret

Seriously Hep, I think you're right on the money. Musical heritage is what matters, not ancestral heritage. Anyone who says Joe Lovano can't swing, or Keith Jarret can't play a convincing blues, is nuts. Moreover, if anyone can tell one's ancestry by virtue of their playing, well, they've got better ears than me!

[papsrus]

Jazz itself seems like a music that is built to absorb local or regional influences. This may help explain the differences in the music among various countries or regions.

It's wonderful that jazz, or creative music, is able to reflect these regional differences. If there is one thing that jazz has been consistently over the years, it is a music that is constantly changing, seeking new influences and testing new territory.

[Jazzclub]

This one, as they say, will run and run!

To start with, every jazz history book I have read over more than 40 years says, in essence, that European music was one of the core components that led to the emergence of jazz in the early 20th century. So the French influence in New Orleans, Jelly Roll Morton's "Spanish tinge" and so on were in there at the start.

That doesn't make jazz any less American. In the 1930s, nearly all European musicians who played jazz had to learn it from records, and most of them had to earn a living playing in dance bands where the "hot" arrangements were only part of the repertoire and real improvisation was non-existent. A handful of musicians started to get the idea, but were still, in effect, copying the Americans.

Perhaps the only exception to this was the Quintet of the Hot Club of France, with its strings-only sound and the unique genius of Django Reinhardt. The presence of Coleman Hawkins and Benny Carter in Europe in the mid-late 1930s was a real inspiration to many European musicians. Yet the 1937 Paris sessions with Hawkins, Carter, Reinhardt, Alix Combelle et al show both how far European music had come and how far it had to go. As an aside, I still find these tracks delightful. Anyone who hasn't heard them should rectify the omission NOW.

Then came the war, when most of continental Europe didn't have legal access to jazz. Then came bebop, and European musicians working on the Atlantic liners just to get to New York and hear the new sound for themselves. (And in parallel, both in Europe and America, was a movement that looked back to earlier styles, sometimes with a lot of public success.)

Yet somehow (IMHO), European jazz was still looking to emulate American jazz. But during the 50s, things started to change. European musicians emerged who had clearly listened to everything new coming out of the US, but who had a full grasp of the idiom and a high level of technique to mix it with the Americans on an equal basis (and in some cases to do it by working in America).

To name a few (with something of a Brit bias - sorry!), musicians like John Dankworth, Ronnie Scott, Tubby Hayes, Rolf Ericson, Jimmy Deuchar and Lars Gullin all possessed the technique and the knowledge, and they started to produce work which didn't always sound quite so American, without being in any way "academic" or omitting any reference to the blues.

At the same time, some highly successful American musicians were actively and consciously incorporating European elements into their work, for example Dave Brubeck, and John Lewis with the MJQ.

By the early 1960s, I would suggest that some distinctively European sounds were starting to emerge, and by the mid 1960s the process was well developed.

An unscientific list would include (some Brit bias again), 1964's Lola by Zbigniew Namyslowski, who sounded a bit like Jackie McLean but somehow didn't, 1965's Under Milk Wood by Stan Tracey, Zoller, Koller, Solal (1965) which got five stars in Down Beat and Dusk Fire (1966) by the Rendell-Carr Quintet.

Since that time, I think that American and European jazz has developed on parallel (and frequently intermingling) routes. I do not believe that European jazz has needed an inferiority complex in the last forty years. While many European musicians are happy to work in an "American" idiom, many more have absorbed European influences to a greater or lesser extent, often not consciously, and often from the work of older generations of European players. Every European jazz musician has listened to lots of American jazz, although I'm sure the reverse is not true, and in that sense, all European jazz is still partly "American".

The same is true, incidentally, of most European jazz listeners. We all have access to American recordings, and to home-grown material from our own countries. But it's much more difficult to keep track of what is happening in the country next door, the EU and the internet notwithstanding.

And American listeners need to beware of the idea that all European jazz is represented by the handful of international labels like ECM and Hat. There's an enormous spectrum of music out there if only we could get our hands on it.

I have just realised how long this post is getting, so I will finish with a highly personal recommendation or three:


Emil Viklicky (Czech Republic) incorporates Moravian folk influences. A recent example is Cookin' in Bonn (2004)
Colin Steele - The Journey Home (2003) - Scottish!
Finally, compare the (rather obscure) Drifting Feather (1971) by Polish band Paradox with John Zorn's News for Lulu (1988). Hmmm.......

[Bev Stapleton]

I'd agree that you'd be hard pushed in a blindfold test to identify whether certain players were European or American.

However, there are two differences that you can hear, though they don't apply to all musicians:

1. A certain zest, frision, urban angstiness that can give US jazz an extra degree of sharpness - something I notice more in live performance than in recordings. European jazz is marginally more reflective (though it's not hard to find exceptions from either side of the pond).

2. The context of composition - you'll find European musicians much more likely to avoid bluesy scales, often replacing them with contexts relating to local folk or classical musics (again the exceptions are not hard to find...lots of European players love a good blues). I don't think anyone would mistake the Colin Steele record mentioned above or a Gianluigi Trovesi or a Mike Westbrook record for an American record.

[Tom K]

Well said, Jazzclub and Bev. True, it's a bit Brit-biased, but nonetheless corresponds with my own experience.

Bev, (me being German-speaking) I love that word creation, angstiness!

[Balicat]

I've always been impressed by the number of truly great European jazz bass players there have been over the years. NHOP, George Mraz, P. Danielsson, Miroslav to name just four. I don't know. Perhaps it is the classical study of the intstrument when they were very young (i.e. gaining the technique first) before they moved into jazz and began absorbing the lessons of Mingus, Brown, La Faro, et al.

There are no doubt some very good European jazz musicians that play other instruments. But to my ears, the great ones are the bass players.

And really the simple yet defining question here is "can he or she swing"?

[Bev Stapleton]

Bev, (me being German-speaking) I love that word creation, angstiness!

I think I might have just invented it!

[Jazzclub]

Straight off the top of my head, four more excellent bassists:

Dave Holland (can we really count him as a Brit these days?)
Dave Green
Pierre Michelot
Frantisek Uhlir

But this list could get very long as we all add our personal favourites. I think it's arguable that one of the major developments in Jazz since the 60s (but certainly not the only one) has been the spread of bass virtuosity in jazz and the bass being accorded a more equal role in many bands, particularly piano trios of course.

[Beauty's servant]

Try as I might, I still can't enjoy the European style jazz or "white" sounding jazz as the poster "GA Russel" poster put it. Even the Bill Evans trio, though American, had a European style sound with light swing that I don't really enjoy much.

It's not really about lack of swing, because I absolutely *love* the chamber music Third Stream eforts of Mingus, Dolphy, Ron Carter etc. It's soemthing else about European style jazz that doesnt really do it for me.

[Jason Palmer]

Prospective jazz musicians from around the world come to the states to learn to play this music we call jazz. I've been hosting a jam session here in Boston every week for about 8 years now and throughout the years, I've met young promising musician from every corner of this earth. When I ask many of them why they come here, they reply that they want to "learn from the source" or something to that effect. I think that here in the states is where the "innovating" is still taking place for the most part. I only know of a few players that have moved to Europe to study jazz so it seems to me that for jazz, America is still the focus point where the music is concerned. When I play in Europe I always make a point to go out to jam session and check out what the local deem the "best" players in the area. To this day I haven't been blown away by anyone's playing (with the exception of Eric Violemans, trumpeter in the Netherlands).



With music in mind,

Jason Palmer

[papsrus]

Prospective jazz musicians from around the world come to the states to learn to play this music we call jazz. I've been hosting a jam session here in Boston every week for about 8 years now and throughout the years, I've met young promising musician from every corner of this earth. When I ask many of them why they come here, they reply that they want to "learn from the source" or something to that effect. I think that here in the states is where the "innovating" is still taking place for the most part. I only know of a few players that have moved to Europe to study jazz so it seems to me that for jazz, America is still the focus point where the music is concerned. When I play in Europe I always make a point to go out to jam session and check out what the local deem the "best" players in the area. To this day I haven't been blown away by anyone's playing (with the exception of Eric Violemans, trumpeter in the Netherlands).



With music in mind,

Jason Palmer

That's surprising, given that there are so many great European jazz musicians. Maybe as a musician you have somewhat of a different point of view (more technical?) than I do as a listener.
But ... :shrug:

[Jason Palmer]

Well I've spent over half of my life in this music full time, studying, performing, teaching, and feeling it. I actually have a degree in jazz performance, whatever that means. I'm 35,000 USD in debt because of it;-( As much time as I've spent listening to various musicians play in x number of styles, I think it's safe to say that my definition of great is somewhat different than yours and that's okay. When I listen to someone play, the first 3 things that pop out to my ears is their sound, time, and ideas. I wouldn't call it more technical, maybe analytical is the word that you're looking for. Some of the greatest instrumental technicians don't turn out to be the best musician, especially when "jazz" and improvisation is concerned.

With music in mind,

Jason Palmer

[bubber]

Jason, I don't think you'll meet many of the best European jazz musicians just going to jam sessions. And I believe that if you ask fellow US-musicians
like Ken Vandermark, Chick Corea, Pat Metheny, Bill Frisell, Joshua Redman a.o. who has been working with some of the best European musicians on several occasions, they'll tell you that you don't know the scene well enough.

As for Redman, last year he was artist in Residence at Molde Jazz Festival. He worked with Trondheim Jazz Orchestra and a trio with Arild Andersen and Bugge Wesseltoft, and he was amazed at the standard of jazzmusicianship he encountered.

[midnightcreeper]

I agree that you can't judge a jazz scene by jam sessions. I know in New York there are several jam sessions running where you get some well known players, but this isn't true of London. In London we don't currently have many jam sessions and none where any really good professional players hang out - they are usually students. You need to go to gigs to hear the talented players in the city.

[Vlad_J]

Labeling jazz is not very useful, and I've often seen silly discussions regarding European vs. American.
You can't label anything as just European, weither its cuisine, lifestyle, literature, and especially not Jazz.
There maybe similarites in the musical atmosphere among, lets say Scadinavian artists, but then go down south to Italy and hear how Enrico Rava swings like the best of them. And that's just among the ECM label. Then you have American artists like Dave Douglas who on some albums sound like they just came from a town called Dragacevo in Serbia.

One thing is for certain about European jazz. We often recognize our great artists only after they've succeded in the U.S., or worked with famous Americans.

[NewJazz4Mike]

I don't like generalizations (including that one), but one characterizing sound of much of the Eurojazz that I hear lately is a melancholy sound. I sensed it for a while now, but only recently started to notice the pervasiveness of it among European artists. Nearly all of the recent European jazz that I hear has a rather sad and melancholy tone to it. Just my perception maybe, but that contrasts to the bluesiness of American jazz.

Of course, when I say European - I'm talking in the stylistic sense and not the geographical sense. Figured I'd get that out there before someone points out Dave Holland, or the fact that Keith Jarrett and Charles Lloyd are on a notoriously infamous Eurojazz label. :)

[Jazzclub]

Vlad - I thought that Dragacevo was the Balkan equivalent of "Dragsville" (in other words something very boring). but it's a real place and it looks like they have a lot of fun! (see link below)

http://eng.viaggiareibalcani.net/?q=node/64

Mike - of course some European Musicians have a "melancholy sound". But so do some Americans. But precious few of us Euro types would be listening to live jazz at all if the music we listened to locally wasn't energetic and exciting - we would just be sitting at home listening to our American records and wondering why our own musicians couldn't do it.

Have you been listening live, or just on record, and to a range of styles or labels? Are you prepared to be controversial and quote a few examples?

[Bev Stapleton]

Labeling jazz is not very useful, and I've often seen silly discussions regarding European vs. American.
You can't label anything as just European, weither its cuisine, lifestyle, literature, and especially not Jazz.
There maybe similarites in the musical atmosphere among, lets say Scadinavian artists, but then go down south to Italy and hear how Enrico Rava swings like the best of them. And that's just among the ECM label. Then you have American artists like Dave Douglas who on some albums sound like they just came from a town called Dragacevo in Serbia.

One thing is for certain about European jazz. We often recognize our great artists only after they've succeded in the U.S., or worked with famous Americans.

This is absolutely true. The cultural variety within Europe is immense. Yes, there's cultural diversity in the States too, but the various groups who moved there have generally taken on a common 'American' set of values and approaches that have created much greater unity.

Despite all the wonderful work at European co-operation of the last 60 years, the difference between places as close as Belgium and Germany, Scotland and England are considerable.

Until the 60s jazz in Europe took most of its leads from the US. A significant number of European jazz musicians since the 60s have been looking for ways to differentiate themselves from US jazz (which should not be confused with rejecting it) and one approach (though not the only) is to tap into local cultures.

*******

I think the perception that European jazz is 'melancholy' says more about the sort of European jazz that gets marketed in the States (particularly on ECM) than about the nature of jazz from Europe. If I was looking for one country where sheer joy is communicated through jazz it would be Italy.

I think the main problem many US listeners have with non-US jazz is that, in attempting to do something different, the musicians will often quite deliberately put aside elements which are central to much US jazz - the blues, 4/4 swing elements, some of the conventions of tune structure. That can give the impression of a music that is less emotional, less highly charged etc - but I think that's an illusion. Exactly the same qualities are there in jazz from Europe but achieved in different ways.

It's hard to be moved or excited by a play in Finnish if you don't speak Finnish. I think the difficulties some US listeners have with European jazz stem from the fact that they are so immersed in the richness of their own musical language that they find it difficult to translate different ones. And jazz is so tied up with American cultural identity that it must be hard to accept that it has been taken up and run with in the rest of the world (we still have people in Britain who'll maintain that even though we get thrashed regularly by cricket teams from Australia, South Africa, the West Indies etc, those colonials aren't playing real cricket!)

As stated before, the 'versus' is an irrelevance. I get immense pleasure from current jazz emerging from the US and elsewhere in the world. Every attempt to try and prove that one is superior to the other or one is the new dawn whilst the other is yesterday is just based on chauvinism. The world is rich in jazz from all over - celebrate the diversity.

It's very unfortunate that one of the most publicised views on jazz in Europe related to US jazz is Stuart Nicholson's 'jazz has changed address' polemic - just a chauvinistic theory which he then selects his facts to fit.

[NewJazz4Mike]

Vlad - I thought that Dragacevo was the Balkan equivalent of "Dragsville" (in other words something very boring). but it's a real place and it looks like they have a lot of fun! (see link below)

http://eng.viaggiareibalcani.net/?q=node/64

Mike - of course some European Musicians have a "melancholy sound". But so do some Americans. But precious few of us Euro types would be listening to live jazz at all if the music we listened to locally wasn't energetic and exciting - we would just be sitting at home listening to our American records and wondering why our own musicians couldn't do it.

Have you been listening live, or just on record, and to a range of styles or labels? Are you prepared to be controversial and quote a few examples?

I hear a ton of live American jazz, but aside from Dave Holland, John McLaughlin (don't ask)... I can't recall hearing many European artists in concert.... wait, I just recalled hearing the Belmondo Brothers a few years back at the Montreal Jazz Festival (don't ask!). So I'm basing my feelings entirely on what I've heard on recordings - albums that probably have beter than average popularity. Examples: Tomas Stanko, Bobo Stenson, Stefano Bollani, Stefano Battaglia, EST, Etc, etc... I don't believe I've heard a "happy" note from any of them. Enrico Rava is someone who I enjoy listening to, but even he is more often subdued and textural than swinging and exuberant.

EDIT: DUH! here I am writing on European jazz and my lack of live experience with it, and it completely slipped my mind that I'll be going to hear Martial Solal this weekend at the Village Vanguard! Solal is melancholy, but that's only one facet of his extremely diverse repertoire. He can do it all. I've seen him before, and he certainly transcends boundaries or styles. His Vanguard gig is being billed as an 80th Birthday celebration, btw.... and I wouldn't want to miss it.

Edit #2: I have a friend in South Africa who is very well versed in both American jazz and European jazz, and he's sent me many CDs over the years - artists who I've never otherwise heard of here in the US... Serge Forte, Jacques Mahieux, The aforementioned Belmondos, Rosario Guiliani, a lot of Louis Sclavis, Richard Galliano... and really a lot more whose names escape me just now. Just to point out that I'm not TOTALLY in the dark about European jazz, even beyond ECM.

[burning dog]

England have been giving the West Indies a good thrashing for the entire decade. England have been the 2nd ranked test team for about 4 years. South Africa are a pretty mediocre teast side as well. With one day cricket it's the fans from the Indian sub continent who take it more seriously than test cricket, and the other nations less than test cricket (not just England), even the Aussies, who are No 1 in both.

[Bev Stapleton]

England have been giving the West Indies a good thrashing for the entire decade. England have been the 2nd ranked test team for about 4 years. South Africa are a pretty mediocre teast side as well. With one day cricket it's the fans from the Indian sub continent who take it more seriously than test cricket, and the other nations less than test cricket (not just England), even the Aussies, who are No 1 in both.

O.K. bad example...I know nothing about sport.

Rugby?...no, we seem to be doing OK there...

Football?...always seems to be lots of hand wringing there about England's performance in internationals.

Ah, tennis! We invented that one too, I think. Though, now I come to think of it, I can't recall a single English person claiming that only English people play real tennis (apart from Tim H's mum!)!

[Bev Stapleton]

Stefano Bollani

Interesting case. I wonder what you've heard. I've been disappointed by Bollani's records on ECM - his solo disc is very gloomy.

In concert the man is hilarious - irreverent, self-deprecating, extrovert, fun. You don't get that clowning on disc but I'd say his European releases give a much broader picture of what he's about.

Enrico Pieranunzi has nothing in common with the glowering stereotype of European jazz. The sheer zest and imagination on his last two live albums make the Jarrett trio sound positively suicidal!

[burning dog]

...

Football?...always seems to be lots of hand wringing there about England's performance in internationals.

)!


With Football, we always have "the best side since 1970", or something, according to the press (even the qualities) when it's clear to anyone over a certain age we haven't, and we are going to struggle. In fact British football was historically far more insular, there was complete shock when Hungary beat Enlgand at Wembley in the 50's. England were beaten by the Aussies at cricket, in England, in 1882, hence "The Ashes". The real division in English cricket was class, because historically Amatuers and Professionals played in the same teams/leagues, unlike Soccer and Rugby (they even had different changing rooms!).

[Vlad_J]

@Jazzclub
Dragacevo is the trumpet capital of Eastern Europe and it's famous for it's festival which gathers some of the greatest trumpet virtuosos in gypsy music today. This type of gypsy music does not fall into the jazz category in the same way as Djangos did, but it is still very interesting.


@NewJazz4Mike and @Bev_Stapleton

The only recent Rava album I found to be slow and melancholic was Tati and for that I blamed Paul Motian (not that there is anything wrong with that, I mean ... a thousand pardons Mr.Motian...)
But there are two excelent live CD's recently released on the French Label Bleu which feature Rava live with the quintet and in duo that I highly recommend:
Montreal Diary B - Enrico Rava/Stefano Bollani
Montreal Diary A - Enrico Rava Play Miles Davis

I enjoyed Bollani's solo album. He reminds a lot more of Paul Bley than Keith Jarret.
I also find Stefano Bollani and Stefano Battaglia to be worlds apart.
But one thing that surprised me was when I read that John Abercrombie is American. For the longest time I was convinced that he was a Scottish. Maybe part of it had to do with the moustache, but his sound has always been in the spirit of cutting edge ECM guitaristry.

[Bev Stapleton]

Montreal Diary B - Enrico Rava/Stefano Bollani
Montreal Diary A - Enrico Rava Play Miles Davis

Agree! Two wonderful discs, especially the Quintet.

I saw Rava a couple of years back and, despite nursing a broken leg, the music grinned from ear to ear.

[Jazzylisp]

As stated before, the 'versus' is an irrelevance. I get immense pleasure from current jazz emerging from the US and elsewhere in the world. Every attempt to try and prove that one is superior to the other or one is the new dawn whilst the other is yesterday is just based on chauvinism. The world is rich in jazz from all over - celebrate the diversity.
Very insightful post, Bev. Your "lost in translation" theory is very sound I think.

As a fan of jazz and other music from countless different countries, I'm always interested in hearing a regional and/or cultural interpretation of a particular music more than getting hung up on which was more legitimate or superior.

[hepcat1950]

I'm just back from an extra short tour (two concerts) accompaniyng bassist Joe Fonda from New York City, pianist Bruno Angelini from Paris, France, and drummer Ramón López from Spain, who lives in Paris for more than twenty years now. Their first recording Silent Cascade (http://www.joefonda.digitalspace.net/cd-kcd-5170.html) (recorded 2005) had been totally impovised. Their second recording which will be recorded today during a live session in a studio in Paris, France will be based on short themes written by the participating musicians, but again improvised in it's most parts. We didn't address this topic in our conversations, but I'm pretty sure they'd scratch their heads reading this thread. This American vs. European thing hasn't been in each musician's mind for a second. The only topic they were discussing during the rehearsals was music. Whether it had been written by a drummer born in the very south of Spain and living in Paris, France, or by a French pianist with strong connections to Germany, or a NY born bassist, located in NYC, and trouring Europe on a regular basis, playing with musicians from Belgium, Canada, China, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Turkey - nobody cares.
I just listen to an album of the Billy Hart Trio recorded live in Murnau, Germany, on occasion of a tour of this trio with German saxophonist Johannes Enders (http://www.johannes-enders.com/index.php) (ts & ss) and German bassist Martin Zenker. ["Billy Hart Trio: route f", released in 2006 by enja]. I listen to some music, and I either like what I hear or I don't. Whether the drummer had been born in Greenland or South Africa or New Orleans is of minor importance to me.
That might be an interesting topic when one starts to thoroughly analyze the music. But that's not the way I'm appoaching any kind of music. And I'm pretty sure it's not a topic for most musicians playing with musicians from other countries.

[papsrus]

I'm just back from an extra short tour (two concerts) accompaniyng bassist Joe Fonda from New York City, pianist Bruno Angelini from Paris, France, and drummer Ramón López from Spain, who lives in Paris for more than twenty years now. Their first recording Silent Cascade (http://www.joefonda.digitalspace.net/cd-kcd-5170.html) (recorded 2005) had been totally impovised. Their second recording which will be recorded today during a live session in a studio in Paris, France will be based on short themes written by the participating musicians, but again improvised in it's most parts. We didn't address this topic in our conversations, but I'm pretty sure they'd scratch their heads reading this thread. This American vs. European thing hasn't been in each musician's mind for a second. The only topic they were discussing during the rehearsals was music. Whether it had been written by a drummer born in the very south of Spain and living in Paris, France, or by a French pianist with strong connections to Germany, or a NY born bassist, located in NYC, and trouring Europe on a regular basis, playing with musicians from Belgium, Canada, China, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Turkey - nobody cares.
I just listen to an album of the Billy Hart Trio recorded live in Murnau, Germany, on occasion of a tour of this trio with German saxophonist Johannes Enders (http://www.johannes-enders.com/index.php) (ts & ss) and German bassist Martin Zenker. ["Billy Hart Trio: route f", released in 2006 by enja]. I listen to some music, and I either like what I hear or I don't. Whether the drummer had been born in Greenland or South Africa or New Orleans is of minor importance to me.
That might be an interesting topic when one starts to thoroughly analyze the music. But that's not the way I'm appoaching any kind of music. And I'm pretty sure it's not a topic for most musicians playing with musicians from other countries.

I think you are absolutely right here. Musicians seek out the influences that interest them, wherever they are from.

I was listening to a band that I've really been digging lately -- Phil Woods and his European Rhythm Machine -- and all I hear is great music. These guys can get in the fast lane and swing like mad!

[Bev Stapleton]

Just noticed this new release:

http://www.danstern.co.uk/main%20area/Resources/tracesimagesmall2.gif

[NewJazz4Mike]

Some of us may be comparing apples and oranges here. From my perspective, "European" jazz and "American" jazz means more than the nationalities of the artists. The terms are more defined by the stylistic hallmarks. Of course there are many examples of albums that mix and match European and American artists, and/or influences. That said, if those albums make a fair approximation of American jazz - then that's what they're playing, afaic - American Jazz. "European" jazz to me means a style of (mostly melancholy), blues-eschewing swing-sanitized improvised sonic textures with an emphasis away from speed and technique, and more towards tonal ambiance. This, I admit, is a generalization, and is bound to rub some people the wrong way, but the fact is, any of us could cite at least dozens of examples where my description is accurate to every detail! Someone early in the thread - Bev maybe - may have hit the nail on the head when he said that music of that sort more represents the type of Eurojazz marketed in the US. That may be so, but the market influence is undeniable - and therein lies the rub.

OK, here's where Bev can tell me about the grey areas, about how a tomato might be considered a vegetable even though it's really a fruit, etc:

[DraperiesOfNight]

I geuss from the standpoint of a 17 year it would be hard to say anything about American, or European jazz. Probly because I was not alive when it was maturing on both sides of the ocean. All I have to go by is the records in wich both talents are showcased. What I will say is from a "world" standpoint, jazz nowadays is dull. You know every so often there is one album that will really catch my eye, and make me say "This cat is smokin". But as a major whole, no one is really pushing that many boundaries anymore. On both sides of the continent, or anywhere that matter. And not only that cats anymore just dont have feeling. Yes, they can play, they know more theory then anyone. But as for the actual heart and soul of the actual piece they are trying to recreate, or write. It sounds dull, just plain dull. People nowadays want everything so technical that it draws away from the overall emotion of the piece. I use to be caught up in this thought that I needed to make music that a "musician" would look at it and say wow, that guy just blew my mind. That however is not what I shouldve been doing. I shouldve been writing from my heart. What my soul felt. If it came out technical, then so be it. If not, I know it was still how I felt inside. So, yes, American and European jazz is great. Black and white jazz is great. But what about soul jazz? There is none anymore. Thats why jazz is a rotting corpse.

[papsrus]

I geuss from the standpoint of a 17 year it would be hard to say anything about American, or European jazz. Probly because I was not alive when it was maturing on both sides of the ocean. All I have to go by is the records in wich both talents are showcased. What I will say is from a "world" standpoint, jazz nowadays is dull. You know every so often there is one album that will really catch my eye, and make me say "This cat is smokin". But as a major whole, no one is really pushing that many boundaries anymore. On both sides of the continent, or anywhere that matter. And not only that cats anymore just dont have feeling. Yes, they can play, they know more theory then anyone. But as for the actual heart and soul of the actual piece they are trying to recreate, or write. It sounds dull, just plain dull. People nowadays want everything so technical that it draws away from the overall emotion of the piece. I use to be caught up in this thought that I needed to make music that a "musician" would look at it and say wow, that guy just blew my mind. That however is not what I shouldve been doing. I shouldve been writing from my heart. What my soul felt. If it came out technical, then so be it. If not, I know it was still how I felt inside. So, yes, American and European jazz is great. Black and white jazz is great. But what about soul jazz? There is none anymore. Thats why jazz is a rotting corpse.

Hmm. I would encourage you to look deeper. What sort of music moves you? There's plenty of vibrant, exciting and experimental jazz out there. I guess it's all subjective, but I'd disagree completely that there's no heart and soul in jazz today. Quite the contrary.

[Tenorman]

Continuing from that.

Boundaries are being pushed in small clubs, and on self-issued CDs. Remember that the big record companies are set up to be risk-averse as are the major record stores, so you are going to have to look in to the "underground" suppliers to get anything that pushes the boundaries. The thing is that when someone starts to break through the boundaries, they leave a lot of people at the fence looking on wistfully as they disappear off into the distance

[DraperiesOfNight]

Alright, so I want you all to take no offense to this. What Im about to say may sound rude, to allot of people. But I dont want it to come off as such, cus I love you cats. But yall are old, where is the voice for my generation? Brad Meldauh? Pat Metheney? No, those guys are just as old as most 30 year old cats in this forum. I hear the same old crap over and over again. You wanna know why there been no new standards? That because no one has set the gap between you and us. Your jazz should be dead and burried by now, but yet its not. I hang onto that jazz like a monkey on a cupcake cus nowadays nobody makes anything new that burries that wich came before. You know first there louies armstrong, and then there was Miles Davis. Who the hell is gonna be here for me? No one, no yet. Its because the cats who play now aint got soul like the forefathers, and so it doesnt seep down into the younger generation. Not to mention our teachers dont want to admit there old and there music isnt goin anywhere. I geuss what Im trying to say is what set the Beatles apart from Elvis? The Beatles finally killed off Elvis by making better music then him. We need a Beatles...Jazz doesnt need another John Abercrombie, John Scolfied, Miles Davis, Wynton Marsalis, or John Coltrane. Jazz needs a name that will finally say, you know Goodbye John Abercrombie, this is the birth of the new cool, so fuck off. Thats what Im trying to say.

[burning dog]

http://www.televisionheaven.co.uk/magicroundabout2.jpg
Time for Bed!

[papsrus]

Alright, so I want you all to take no offense to this. What Im about to say may sound rude, to allot of people. But I dont want it to come off as such, cus I love you cats. But yall are old, where is the voice for my generation? Brad Meldauh? Pat Metheney?

The Bad Plus
Taylor Ho Bynum
Cuong Vu
Tanya Kalmanovich
Ned Rothenberg
Rob Reddy
Loren Stillman
Jenny Scheinmann
Tin Hat Trio
Michael Attias
Omer Avital
Scott Amendola
Drew Gress
Hiromi
Andy Laster

.... you get the idea. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I think all of these are pretty young, not that age has anything to do with the music, but ...
All create exciting and forward-looking music.

Anyways, investigate some of these. Maybe you'll hear something you like.

[Egbert Souse]

Who the hell is gonna be here for me? No one, no yet. Its because the cats who play now aint got soul like the forefathers, and so it doesnt seep down into the younger generation. Not to mention our teachers dont want to admit there old and there music isnt goin anywhere.

It's a little scary sometimes but when you get right down to it, the only person you can really count on is yourself.

[DraperiesOfNight]

Hey thanks for all yall who posted back to me. Sorry to all those who didnt cus I might have offended you. But I geuss to me the doom of jazz in impending. I geuss it just makes me mad. But maybe yall are right, I should just dig deeper. Age really doesnt have anything to do with it. I geuss what Im trying to say is there is no impacting my generation on jazz. No major figure you know, I mean yea I geuss Norah Jones has this little jazzy tinged stuff. But stuff coming out now scares kids away, they hear Kenny G and run. Or maybe they hear something like Miles Davis's Kind of Blue and dig it, but thats as far as it goes. I dont know if that makes sense, I probly dont make any sense.

[Jay Norem]

Alright, so I want you all to take no offense to this. What Im about to say may sound rude, to allot of people. But I dont want it to come off as such, cus I love you cats. But yall are old, where is the voice for my generation? Brad Meldauh? Pat Metheney? No, those guys are just as old as most 30 year old cats in this forum. I hear the same old crap over and over again. You wanna know why there been no new standards? That because no one has set the gap between you and us. Your jazz should be dead and burried by now, but yet its not. I hang onto that jazz like a monkey on a cupcake cus nowadays nobody makes anything new that burries that wich came before. You know first there louies armstrong, and then there was Miles Davis. Who the hell is gonna be here for me? No one, no yet. Its because the cats who play now aint got soul like the forefathers, and so it doesnt seep down into the younger generation. Not to mention our teachers dont want to admit there old and there music isnt goin anywhere. I geuss what Im trying to say is what set the Beatles apart from Elvis? The Beatles finally killed off Elvis by making better music then him. We need a Beatles...Jazz doesnt need another John Abercrombie, John Scolfied, Miles Davis, Wynton Marsalis, or John Coltrane. Jazz needs a name that will finally say, you know Goodbye John Abercrombie, this is the birth of the new cool, so fuck off. Thats what Im trying to say.

If you want that then you're in the wrong business. There's no "killing off" the previous masters in this music.
Why wait for the guy that will finally say "Goodbye John Abercrombie?" That's your job. You do it.
What do you care about your generation? Really now. Aren't you YOU? If there are no innovations that are taking place in jazz as you see it, then whose fault is that? Go ahead, make something up, DO something, out of your own mind. But dismissing those who came before you and being age discriminatory is absolutely counter-productive. Right now I'm hanging out with a drummer who's at least 60 years old and he kicks my ass.
Make the music you want to make man. If, that is, you can. And if you can't, then who's to blame? Certainly not Louis Armstrong, John Coltrane or John Abercrombie.
You said that we need a Beatles. Well, YOU be the Beatles. What's stopping you?

[Bev Stapleton]

"European" jazz to me means a style of (mostly melancholy), blues-eschewing swing-sanitized improvised sonic textures with an emphasis away from speed and technique, and more towards tonal ambiance. This, I admit, is a generalization, and is bound to rub some people the wrong way, but the fact is, any of us could cite at least dozens of examples where my description is accurate to every detail!

But isn't that like me saying that American jazz is all blokes in suits trying to relive the Blue Note, hard bop glory days. It would be easy to cite dozens of examples...but only by being highly selective. Your characterisation of Euro-jazz is equally selective, based on what appears to be being marketed in the States.

OK, here's where Bev can tell me about the grey areas, about how a tomato might be considered a vegetable even though it's really a fruit, etc

As you well know, that sort of labelling doesn't interest me. But if you want to hear some jazz from Europe that does not fit the Euro-jazz stereotype use some of your e-music credit on:

Partisans - Max (a loose-limbed, energetic jazz-rock with none of the arthritic tendencies that have long afflicted fusion from both sides of the Atlantic)
Enrico Pieranunzi's two live albums from Paris and Japan - makes you realise just how little the Jarrett trio, for all its musical excellence, has changed over the years.

And you really need to hear Atomic who deliberately disassociate themselves from 'fjord-jazz'.

I have to say that in my live concert going - which tends to be European bands because they tour more regularly here - 'fjord jazz' is more the exception than the rule.

[Jay Norem]

"European Jazz." When I lived in England I heard a good many jazz bands and it all sounded like...jazz. I mean it was jazz, just like you hear in New York or anywhere.
I am, of course, aware of this ECM thing, but that's not so different from what some cats in the U.S. have done, not that I like it all that much.
Why can't it all just be jazz? I mean if you think the Bad Plus is jazz, then oh never mind.
Actually I think the Bad Plus isn't...bad.
Also, when I lived in England I played with some guys who could play the hell out of the blues, like they owned it.
The funny thing about Europe is that they know a lot more about our shit than a lot of US think we do.

[Tom K]

Now here's somebody who has a fair view of things. Congratulations, Jay Norem; you're my man (if you are, indeed ... male).

And, BTW, why is it always a question of American versus European? What about Asian, Australian, African, Antarctic jazz? It's a global way of making music, isn't it?

[NewJazz4Mike]

Now here's somebody who has a fair view of things. Congratulations, Jay Norem; you're my man (if you are, indeed ... male).

And, BTW, why is it always a question of American versus European? What about Asian, Australian, African, Antarctic jazz? It's a global way of making music, isn't it?

Well, there IS Latin jazz - an extremely viable force in contemporary jazz. Latin jazz succeeds through influencing and enhancing traditional jazz, rather than trying to dispose of it or transcend it. That's a huge difference.

As I mentioned before, these labels are not so much for geographic identification. The difference exists in a broad style, a movement, an ethic, a philosophy, a concept. The concept of "European jazz" often strikes me as anti-American.... not in the political sense, but with a degree of purposeful avoidance of American influences (swing, blues, etc.). All fine and good - it makes sense that an artist would employ his own cultural influences, and often the results are fantastic. Where I get cranky about it is when I hear Euro style jazz (particularly the ECM style) being described as the future of jazz, or the newest trend in jazz, or as a great new innovative direction in jazz, when critics and the few jazz periodicals focus nearly half of their reviews on music that is actually antithetical to jazz and treat it as though it is jazz, or when I go into a Borders or Barnes and Noble and can't find a CD by Charles Tolliver or Chris Potter, but find the bins packed with ECM titles (what they lack in jazz quality, they more than make up for in marketing and distribution). Sorry... I'm getting cranky again.

[Vlad_J]

. But yall are old, where is the voice for my generation? Brad Meldauh? Pat Metheney? No, those guys are just as old as most 30 year old cats in this forum.

I think you'll notice in time that jazz musicians require a bit more work to become acomblished musicians than pop, punk and rock performers. There are some talented wunderkinds and a few record company attempts to sell a new jazz star (Jamie something?) but you'll still find many fifty year-olds in Downbeats rising star category.
In two weeks I'm going to see Ornette who still rocks at seventy something. Can't say that for most rock musicians.

[papsrus]

... I mean if you think the Bad Plus is jazz, then oh never mind.
Actually I think the Bad Plus isn't...bad.

I suppose that's the old debate again, but the fellow wanted "new" music, so ... it's definitely that. There's another band, actually, that the drummer for the Bad Plus (who, btw, is amazing) Dave King plays in called "Happy Apple."

I haven't heard them but they're getting some love in the latest issue of JazzTimes. A sort of free jazz/punk/indie rock hybrid.

Hey Jay, you might want to pick up this month's JazzTimes. The issue is devoted to drummers. Roy Haynes on the cover.

[Bev Stapleton]

As I mentioned before, these labels are not so much for geographic identification. The difference exists in a broad style, a movement, an ethic, a philosophy, a concept. The concept of "European jazz" often strikes me as anti-American.... not in the political sense, but with a degree of purposeful avoidance of American influences (swing, blues, etc.). All fine and good - it makes sense that an artist would employ his own cultural influences, and often the results are fantastic. Where I get cranky about it is when I hear Euro style jazz (particularly the ECM style) being described as the future of jazz, or the newest trend in jazz, or as a great new innovative direction in jazz, when critics and the few jazz periodicals focus nearly half of their reviews on music that is actually antithetical to jazz and treat it as though it is jazz, or when I go into a Borders or Barnes and Noble and can't find a CD by Charles Tolliver or Chris Potter, but find the bins packed with ECM titles (what they lack in jazz quality, they more than make up for in marketing and distribution). Sorry... I'm getting cranky again.

I agree with you - and share your annoyance - about jazz from Europe being promoted as the next big thing. I think that too is a marketing angle. I don't sense anything but love and respect for US jazz from most European musicians and listeners and no desire to claim superiority, just an equal hearing.

Tom is right to point out that there is more to this than America and Europe. The only other area I've heard a significant amount of jazz from is Australia where there are great things happening.

Until quite recently it's been hard for US listeners to appreciate the range of non-US jazz, largely due to limited domestic release and high import prices. The internet/download revolution is rapidly changing that.

[NewJazz4Mike]

Well then, we have a common hurdle to overcome. I'd suggest that those European jazz artists who are creating legitimate and authentic jazz, who are honing technique adequate to the task of performing great jazz, who are creating imaginitive, adventurous, genre pushing arrangements, respecting tradition while evolving the artform, and developing unique personal voices - those admirable artists have a formidable task ahead of them even BEFORE gaining an equal hearing, acknowledgement, acceptance or acclaim - First they must overcome the ECM style blurring of the term jazz, and the market force that places ECM titles in the bins and on the review pages out of proportion to their jazz relevance, quality, or authenticity.... in that respect, deserving European artists are no different from deserving American artists.

I agree with you - and share your annoyance - about jazz from Europe being promoted as the next big thing. I think that too is a marketing angle. I don't sense anything but love and respect for US jazz from most European musicians and listeners and no desire to claim superiority, just an equal hearing.

Tom is right to point out that there is more to this than America and Europe. The only other area I've heard a significant amount of jazz from is Australia where there are great things happening.

Until quite recently it's been hard for US listeners to appreciate the range of non-US jazz, largely due to limited domestic release and high import prices. The internet/download revolution is rapidly changing that.

[DraperiesOfNight]

I think you'll notice in time that jazz musicians require a bit more work to become acomblished musicians than pop, punk and rock performers. There are some talented wunderkinds and a few record company attempts to sell a new jazz star (Jamie something?) but you'll still find many fifty year-olds in Downbeats rising star category.
In two weeks I'm going to see Ornette who still rocks at seventy something. Can't say that for most rock musicians.

Not downplayin that fact at all bro. Your right, there are allot of cats that swing till my ankles break. What Im tryin to say is, as a seventeen year old kid who would honestly catch my eye out of the millions of swinging cats that are out there. Sure there are afew, also no saying I want mainstream stuff. I geuss what Im trying to say is, I would want a leader in the new jazz. Or show me the way to go. I am not a leader of man, I choose to fallow. Many of you probly wouldnt have dug jazz if you hadnt have heard the main jazz cat of your time. 2008, where is the main jazz cat, who will lead us. Jakeweiser, you the man. Lead us bro, I have to chuckle to myself on that one.

[Bev Stapleton]

Well, I'd say the ECM performers are also deserving; just not representative of the breadth of jazz outside of the USA. A worthy part, not the whole picture.

I'm sure it's a great thrill for non-US musicians to play and be recognised in the birthland of jazz. But I don't think getting approval from the USA is high on their agenda...a nice bonus, but...

If listeners in the birthland of jazz are not prepared to listen, I'm sure most European musicians will shrug their shoulders and continue to make their livings in the places they always have. The European audience seems to have a growing appetite for non-US musicians alongside their traditional preference for US players.

If the US jazz community chooses an isolationist, inward looking future, then the main people who will lose out are members of the US jazz community.

But I hope that's not the case. I detect a growing curiosity from the States about jazz from beyond its native shores, certainly from many posters here.

[blind-blake]

Count me in among the American lovers of European jazz. Although I've heard great jazz from across Europe (and from all the jazz eras), I have a particular soft spot for the English players of the 50s and 60s. Tubby Hayes, Stan Tracey, Joe Harriott, the Blue Notes (OK, not technically English, but made it big in Britain), Ronnie Scott, Jimmy Deuchar - these guys can stand beside the best hardbop/mainstream that the US has produced. I'm also a huge Martial Solal fan, and I also saw him at the Village Vanguard last week. What an incredible player. You go Europeans!

[papsrus]

Well, I'd say the ECM performers are also deserving; just not representative of the breadth of jazz outside of the USA. A worthy part, not the whole picture.

I'm sure it's a great thrill for non-US musicians to play and be recognised in the birthland of jazz. But I don't think getting approval from the USA is high on their agenda...a nice bonus, but...

If listeners in the birthland of jazz are not prepared to listen, I'm sure most European musicians will shrug their shoulders and continue to make their livings in the places they always have. The European audience seems to have a growing appetite for non-US musicians alongside their traditional preference for US players.

If the US jazz community chooses an isolationist, inward looking future, then the main people who will lose out are members of the US jazz community.

But I hope that's not the case. I detect a growing curiosity from the States about jazz from beyond its native shores, certainly from many posters here.

Yes. And ... American jazz musicians have for quite some time been going to Europe regularly to perform because, frankly, there are more paying gigs there. I have often read about American musicians who travel off to Paris, London, Italy, Germany, etc., each year to tour and scratch together a little money because that money simply isn't forthcoming here. (This brings government subsidies of the arts into the discussion, but nonetheless ...)

I find it difficult to fathom that these musicians would not soak in some European influences while touring there regularly, playing with European musicians, exploring the scenes there, etc.

You might even argue that because of this situation, Europe has a stronger influence on the music now than ever. Dave Douglas was cited as one example.

But it's all a happy stew as far as I'm concerned. American purists are in danger of being left behind as the music evolves. (Wynton, anyone?)

[Bev Stapleton]

Heard the one about the Englishman, the Irishman (well, he lives there) and the American woman...

http://www.shumtoh.org/bbs/data/albums/odyssey.jpg

Just listened to this. Hard to imagine a more open, distinctive, innovative example of contemporary jazz.

Makes the 'versus' quite irrelevant.

[Jay Norem]

I think it's time I got hip to some of this stuff. So here's my thing: I primarily listen to hard-bop kind of stuff, not that I'm stuck in the past but that term comes the closest to decribing in a general way the sound I like. Also I don't care much for electric instruments, and the whole ECM thing doesn't do it for me either.
So who can recomend some European jazz CDs that generally fall into that broad category? The more original compostitions the better.
Sorry if this has been asked before. I'm sure that it has.

[NewJazz4Mike]

I agree with you - and share your annoyance - about jazz from Europe being promoted as the next big thing. I think that too is a marketing angle. I don't sense anything but love and respect for US jazz from most European musicians and listeners and no desire to claim superiority, just an equal hearing.


Bev, Your last post misrepresented my POV entirely. I replied precisely to what you said above, about European musicians wanting an equal listen. Without any defensiveness on your part, and without the accusations of American isolationism, you'd see that my post replied directly to that, pointing out that to gain any acceptance here, or "an equal listen" as you called it, it would be necessary to overcome the largely ECM impression here of European jazz. You've said exactly the same in different words, in various parts of your other posts. So to that you come back and say, "We dont really care if you like us there, we can get along without you, and btw, you're inward-looking and isolationist." Huh???

[NewJazz4Mike]

You might even argue that because of this situation, Europe has a stronger influence on the music now than ever. Dave Douglas was cited as one example.



Dave Douglas certainly does have that European melancholy tone down pat. He's a fine trumpet player, and I thrill to a lot of his performances, and yes - he's got a very European sound. I was going to mention that myself before.

[hepcat1950]

Well then, we have a common hurdle to overcome. I'd suggest that those European jazz artists who are creating legitimate and authentic jazz, who are honing technique adequate to the task of performing great jazz, who are creating imaginitive, adventurous, genre pushing arrangements, respecting tradition while evolving the artform, and developing unique personal voices - those admirable artists have a formidable task ahead of them even BEFORE gaining an equal hearing, acknowledgement, acceptance or acclaim - First they must overcome the ECM style blurring of the term jazz, and the market force that places ECM titles in the bins and on the review pages out of proportion to their jazz relevance, quality, or authenticity.... in that respect, deserving European artists are no different from deserving American artists.

The alphapetical lists on ECM's website count 1,768 musicians/bands who recorded for this label. Almost exactly 33% (thirty-three per cent) of the musicians/bands in those lists are American. You remember - we're talking about a German label. Read the list of those American musicians who recorded for ECM at the bottom of this post. For me this list is quite impressive.

Quite some of those American musicians have long lasting connections to this label. I wonder if any American jazz musician is compelled to stick to ECM. Pat Metheny is one example to prove the contrary. Others seem to feel quite comfortable with ECM: Keith Jarrett, John Abercrombie, Ralph Towner, Charles Lloyd, Carla Bley, Paul Motian, etc.

... the market force that places ECM titles in the bins and on the review pages out of proportion to their jazz relevance, quality, or authenticity ...

I can remember times when the German (European) market was dominated by American majors for decades. Now you want to blame ECM for doing a good job :confused2

What's about Blue Note - still praised as one of the best jazz labels ever? Founded and run by immigrants from Germany. Aren't you afraid they pushed the wrong musicians, and fudged the history of jazz?

American jazz musicians who record[ed] for ECM:
Abraham Laboriel, Adam Nussbaum, Alex Cline, Alphonse Mouzon, American Composers Orchestra, Andrew Cyrille, Annette Peacock, Anthony Braxton, Antonio Hart, Art Ensemble of Chicago, Art Lande, Arthur Blythe, Arto Lindsay, Baikida Carroll, Barre Phillips, Barry Altschul, Beaver Harris, Ben Monder, Bennie Maupin, Benny Bailey, Bill Connors, Bill Douglass, Bill Frisell, Billy Drummond, Billy Elgart, Billy Hart, Billy Higgins, Billy Kilson, Bob Degen, Bob Malach, Bob Mintzer, Bob Moses, Bob Stewart, Bobby Naughton, Brad Mehldau, Bruce Ditmas, Buster Williams, Carla Bley, Carlos Ward, Cassandra Wilson, Cecil Tayor, Charles Brackeen, Charles Eubanks, Charles Lloyd, Charles Sullivan, Charlie Haden, Charlie Mariano, Chick Corea, Chico Freeman, Chris Cheek, Chris Potter, Chris Woods, Clarence Becton, Collin Walcott, Corey Wilkes, Craig Harris, Craig Taborn, Dan Gottlieb, Dan Wall, Dave Bargeron, David Darling, David Izenzon, David Liebman, David Moss, David Murray, David Samuels, David Taylor, David Torn, Dennis Mackrel, Denny Zeitlin, Dewey Redman, Don Alias, Don Cherry, Don Preston, Earl McIntyre, Ed Blackwell, Ed Schuller, Ed Thigpen, Eliot Zigmund, Eric Gale, Eric Person, Erik Friedlander, Famoudou Don Moye, Frank Colón, Fred Frith, Fred Williams, Frederick Waits, Gary Burton, Gary Peacock, Gary Smulyan, Gary Valente, Gene Jackson, Gene Perla, George Adams, George Lewis, Gerald Cleaver, Geri Allen, Glen Moore, Glen Velez, Hadley Caliman, Hal Russell, Hamiet Bluiett, Herbie Hancock, Hiram Bullock, Howard Johnson, Jack DeJohnette, Jaco Pastorius, Jamaaladeen Tacuma, James Newton, Jaribu Shahid, Jay Clayton, Jeanne Lee, Jeff Williams, Jerome Harris, Jerry Granelli, Jim Odgren, Jim Pepper, Jim Pugh, Jimmy Giuffre, Jimmy Knepper, Jimmy Lyons, Joe Daley, Joe Farrell, Joe Lovano, Joe Maneri, Joe Morris, Joey Baron, John Abercrombie, John Cage, John Clark, John Marshall, John Scofield, Jon Hassell, Joseph Jarman, Josh Roseman, Julian Priester, Kamau Eric Gravatt, Karen Mantler, Keith Jarrett, Kenny Kirkland, Kevin Eubanks, Larry Coryell, Larry Goldings, Larry Grenadier, Larry Willis, Lee Konitz, Leroy Jenkins, Lester Bowie, Lew Soloff, Lew Tabackin, Lyle Mays, Lynn Vartan, Mal Waldron, Marc Johnson, Marilyn Crispell, Marion Brown, Mark Egan, Mark Feldman, Mark Helias, Mark Isham, Marvin Smitty Smith, Mat Maneri, Matthew Shipp, Michael Brecker, Michael Cain, Michael Mantler, Mick Goodrick, Mike Stern, Mulgrew Miller, Ndugu Leon Chancler, Ned Rothenberg, Nels Cline, Nyimbo Henry Franklin, Pat Metheny, Paul McCandless, Paul Motian, Paul Wertico, Perry Robinson, Peter Erskine, Peter Warren, Pharoah Sanders, Phillip Wilson, Ralph Alessi, Ralph Peterson, Ralph Towner, Randy Brecker, Raoul Björkenheim, Richard Beirach, Richard Tee, Robby Ameen, Robert Dick, Robert Hurst, Robin Eubanks, Ron McClure, Roscoe Mitchell, Roswell Rudd, Roy Haynes, Rufus Reid, Sam Brown, Sam Rivers, Sheila Jordan, Steve Cardenas, Steve Coleman, Steve Dobrogosz, Steve Gadd, Steve Gorn, Steve Hunt, Steve Kuhn, Steve Lacy, Steve Lake, Steve Reich, Steve Rodby, Steve Slagle, Steve Swallow, Steve Turre, Steve Wilson, Steven Bernstein, Stu Martin, Sue Evans, The American Brass Quintet, Tim Berne, Tom Harrell, Tom Rainey, Tom van der Geld, Tony Levin, Tony Malaby, Tony Scott, Tony Williams, Victor Lewis, Vince Mendoza, Vincent Chancey, Wadada Leo Smith, and William Parker.

[Bev Stapleton]

Bev, Your last post misrepresented my POV entirely. I replied precisely to what you said above, about European musicians wanting an equal listen. Without any defensiveness on your part, and without the accusations of American isolationism, you'd see that my post replied directly to that, pointing out that to gain any acceptance here, or "an equal listen" as you called it, it would be necessary to overcome the largely ECM impression here of European jazz. You've said exactly the same in different words, in various parts of your other posts. So to that you come back and say, "We dont really care if you like us there, we can get along without you, and btw, you're inward-looking and isolationist." Huh???

Well, sorry if I misrepresented you Mike but I lost your praise for European musicians in your continued swipe at ECM; in fact I mistakenly assumed you meant this:

I'd suggest that those European jazz artists who are creating legitimate and authentic jazz, who are honing technique adequate to the task of performing great jazz, who are creating imaginitive, adventurous, genre pushing arrangements, respecting tradition while evolving the artform, and developing unique personal voices...

sceptically.

My point remains that jazz musicians across the world are here to stay and have long been performing on a level with those from the States; they'll continue to make music however it suits them and some of that will be in a style associated with ECM.

Performing in that style does not render them less 'deserving', though it will make them of less interest to many listeners.

How successfully other non-US flavours of jazz penetrate the US market will partly depend on other companies/musicians finding ways to get their music noticed; but it will also depend on the curiosity of US jazz fans.

As I said before, I see plenty of evidence of that and the net is allowing that curiosity increasingly to be satisfied. My experience with Australian jazz is similar - it has virtually no market presence in the UK. As far as I know Australian companies don't release here. But I got curious from reading comments here and from a couple of magazine articles.

I think much the same will happen with US jazz taste - it will probably be too expensive for record companies or musicians to bombard the States in the way that rock groups used to. Much more likely that interest will spread by word of mouth (or index finger) over the net.