What is the future of jazz?

[xricci]

Be sure to read AAJ's archived discussion topic: "How will jazz evolve in the next century, or will it?" at http://www.allaboutjazz.com/threads/evolve.htm.

[Coypu]

traditional jazz will most likely always have listeners but in order for jazz music to survive musically we need to drop the idea of keeping jazz in its traditional form. Fusion is the future and bringing it even further by mixing fusion with all possible genres and ideas is the way to go. It's time to move on from the traditional to the new.

[jazzpianoteach]

The future of jazz is whatever the artists make it. I for one am enjoying the wide diversity of jazz and now have three different versions of my band...a straight ahead acoustic band that I do with a great vocalist, an urbanish more hip hop jazz band that I do at Monsoon Cafe in LA, and a smooth jazz or contemporary jazz band that does music from my CD's which I do at other venues.

The LA Times raved about my fusion work back in the 90's around the time that the Smooth Jazz movement was renaming itself and trying to gain listeners. I wasn't really worried about what anyone thought at the time, I just wanted to make music and become a better musician. In all fiels of music, people create things, and the non-creators make up names for it, talk about it, love it, hate it, and do whatever else they do with it. Hats off to the people who create things and bring new music into the world.
I think that in a market as small as the overall jazz market, the same age old rules still apply to most artists...balance art with commerce only when you must. It is now possible for anyone in the world with not too much gear and not too much of a budget to record the music of their dreams...and the more the merrier. I am thinking that the variety of jazz music that will be created in the future is endless and will only be limited by the vision, resources, and talents of its creators.

[GA Russell]

I see people creating their own record companies, making their own CDs and selling them on the internet.

Jazz is a niche market, and I see the future of all niche markets to be do-it-yourself via internet word of mouth.

[Joel]

Jazz has to remain Progressive if it were to last through the ages but should not erase its past.

The "past" being traditional or straight ahead or the real meaning which to me is improvisional, should always comprise a jazz piece no matter how small the part it takes.

After all, Jazz is constantly evolving and one shouldnt pidgeon hole it into one specific category.


The second most important issue would be its listeners. That's right, You and me.
We should not be deprived of good creative music by increasing the cost of CDs.
The price of jazz CDs nowadays is just appalling and has gone out of hand.

[andreimatorin]

it's funny how u can easily associate what people say in this thread and the replies in (which ten records would u pick on a deserted island).... Coypu :)
Leaving personal preferences aside, i do believe that jazz should indeed evolve but i don't think there's any rush. After all with all the technology we have today and ways to spread music around, jazz has the potential to evolve as much in one year as it would have taken 10-15 years earlier on. I dont think we must create new styles to make things interesting, we can refine what we already have.

If we get in a hurry to evolve too quickly, at the rate new music can spread these days, there wouldn't be anything new to do soon...

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Coypu
...Fusion is the future and bringing it even further by mixing fusion with all possible genres and ideas is the way to go. It's time to move on from the traditional to the new.

Um, but fusion has been around for over 30 years.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by omar zamora
Um, but fusion has been around for over 30 years.

"and bringing it even further by mixing fusion with all possible genres"

Fusion + Death Metal is about over 10 years old and still very unexplored for example. Fredrik Thordendal took it to a new level by mixing Fusion, Jazz, Death, Experimental, Ambience etc and this was 1999, so I would say that some parts of it isn't that old.

[clifton]

The future of jazz is a surprisingly complex issue. Jazz has evolved into many styles and idioms, all of them alive and vital. Jazz will explore other ethnic musics, particularly rhythms and time signatures. Fusion will look at rock less, at hip hop beats, DJ's and electronica more. Straight ahead will focus on compositional form, breaking away from 12 and 32 bar song forms and using multiple themes, tempo changes, and odd time signatures to challenge the improviser. The issue of expanding the American jazz audience must be confronted. In America, corporate media have marginalized jazz, and in the future, access to jazz will have to be expanded, through the internet, and through organizing, even using a political model to organize listeners and attempt to increase market share. Jazz outside the U.S. will continue to flower. Most significantly, I believe the future of jazz lies with assimilating the innovations of Ornette Coleman, as Branford Marsalis, Dave Douglas, and Kenny Garrett are already doing.

[Pharaohrock]

One thing that is for sure about the future of jazz is= to continue having discussions about the future of jazz, indefinitely.

[clifton]

How's this for an idea? Congressman John Conyers is a true friend of jazz. Could we gather sufficient numbers to urge him to fight for increased funding for jazz musicians and jazz educational programs? The funding would be earmarked specifically for jazz. I realize we have a troglodyte (i.e. Republican) Congress to deal with, which means a very tough fight, but you either talk about the future of jazz (which is OK, I do it a lot), or you couple your talk with action. I vow to e-mail Mr.Conyers tomorrow. I'll let you know if anything happens.

[Pharaohrock]

More power to you, but I am going to bet there's more than a few jazz people already knocking at Mr. Conyers' door. I'd be in favor of a Jazz march on Washington instead. We could call it....
a "SWING-IN."

[clifton]

I didn't e-mail Conyers, his website is a bit of a hassle for that if you're not in his district. But so what? I called his office. The aide I spoke to was excited about jazz-specific funding. Apparently, Mr. Conyers is looking at the idea. His aide Jared (forgot last name) handles that area, so I left a message on Jared's tape. Who knows what'll happen?

[Pharaohrock]

Thanks for taking the initiative Clif. You remind us that we need to be proactive and not just wait for something to happen.

[clifton]

Sometimes I think the future of jazz looks brighter overseas, at least as far as economics are concerned. While I'm aware that CD sales are down everywhere, many foreign governments subsidize the arts, whereas, in the good ol' USA, corporate media conglomorates control what we hear, and I'm convinced they don't want us to hear jazz. The excuse is "jazz doesn't sell". But actually, jazz nurtures independence, critical thinking, intellect, rebellion, and positive emotions, hardly what corporate America wants, hardly the components of the unreflective passivity corporate America requires of consumers. But dig: In Sweden, E.S.T. outsells Britney Spears. In Japan, Jackie McLean sells like a rock star. In France, Dee Dee Bridgewater was a major star, the equivalent of an American pop "diva". I think the music itself is healthy. But the music business in America is an enemy, and the jazz community needs to find a common voice against the corporate media. Anybody ready for some dragon slaying?

[omar zamora]

I have to wonder if the situation in Europe has become less favorable, Clifton. I don't have any facts or anything, but I get a sense that jazz musicians are becoming less dependent on European festivals to make a living, and that these festivals aren't getting the subidies they used to.

It wasn't just European governments that were subsidizing jazz. The Hat labels were beneficiaries of a Swiss bank up to maybe a year or two ago. The loss of funds is noticeable in the quantity of output (and their further dependence on reissues, which isn't entirely a bad thing for those of us too young to have obtained the originals).

Also, Lacy's return to the States must have some signficance, I think.

Again, this is all idle speculation. I could be completely wrong.

As for the subject of this thread - well, if I gave an opinion, that too would be idle speculation. I have no idea where the future lies. I think we all would like to predict the future based on how we interpret the present. In fact, I know a few people who believe that jazz as a creative force is an historical chapter. I don't share that view. But one future that comes to mind is where the word 'jazz' is used to represent a stagnant rehash of an earlier era with no association to aspects of the current culture. I can also see a future where the advances of the AEC, Ayler, Hemphill, Braxton, etc become the standard language, and it takes another 30 years to accept what's going on today.

There are, of course, more positive outcomes I can imagine, but I thought I'd throw these out there.

[Pharaohrock]

"I can also see a future where the advances of the AEC, Ayler, Hemphill, Braxton, etc become the standard language...."

And this would be very wishful thinking indeed. Straight-ahead and swing is the vernacular of Jazz, the popular language, and it will and always be barring some radical change in the culture. I could see avant-garde styles becoming commonplace only in the event of some kind of Depression era or wartime in which people had the will to explore things that were less overtly pleasant and more introspective .....look what the 60s and Vietnam did for the avant-garde as a case in point. Otherwise, there's no doubt in mind that straight-ahead will continue to reign supreme, if for no other reason than its accessibility relative to the avant-garde.

[groovinhigher]

If you guys are waiting for a republican controlled congress to contribute to the arts ( specifically jazz ) you will be waiting longer than the universe has existed, lol, not going to happen. As far as fusion being the future, I remember hearing that in the late 60's and early 70's, lol... You just have to follow you heart, make art with it, follow your passion, and whatever happens will happen. There is always room for something great.

[kateeba]

First of all, I don't believe anyone can fortell the future. All we can do is speculate. To ask what is the future of jazz is a very complex question because jazz is so many different things to so many different people. If there is one thing that forms a thread that means jazz to me, it is improvisation . I always look for what someone will do with a piece of music to "play" with it. Even jazz singers "play" with the notes of a melody, even if they don't scat. One could argue that swing and rhythm is also part of that thread, but I don't believe so. There are many styles of jazz that do not incorporate swing. Musicians like Cecil Taylor or Wadada Leo Smith don't usually have swing incorporated into their musics, yet they are still part of what jazz is considered. As for rhythm in general, there is also much jazz that has pieces that do not use a repetative beat and float more like classical music or have no pulse at all. But rhythm is just the spacing between notes so it really is always there in some form, in all music. Nowdays, jazz had encompased so much from other styles of musics it is sometimes hard to differenciate what is jazz and what isn't. So to look into the future, I can't see where it's center or mainstream will go, or if that will even survive at all in an economical sense, but I feel pretty confident that as people become attracted to what is already here, new things will be built off of it. It is always sad to see something you love go away or change. If you can keep on open mind and go with the flow, you may always find the essence of jazz in some music as long as there is music being played and someone around to play it. That essence is already in rock, rap, and even some country and classical. You just have to look for it.

[jazzypaul]

The future of jazz is what we make of it. Face it, at this point in time, the generation X and Y jazz musicians ARE the true punks in the music world! Let's market ourselves as such. Book shows in non-tradtional venues, play non-traditional jazz tunes, look to Zorn and Shipp for inspiration. Remember our tradition, and build on it. Remember that this music has always embraced pop music and made it something more. Remember that this music is the haven for the freaks, geeks and rejects of society. This is the music that inspired politicians in communist countries to ban it because it sounds like freedom, the music that inspired people to revolt! Use these qualities and make the best of them. Look to Brad Mehldau playing Radiohead tunes, and Paul Abella and the New Breed (ahem) playing Metallica tunes. The future of jazz is as bright as we want it to be. If we want to play Gershwin tunes to 50 year olds and people looking to be romantic, we will. But if we want to inspire people, we can do that too. The future lies in the hands of each of us who is a musician. So the question isn't really "What is the future of jazz?" as much as it is "What are you going to do to help the future of jazz?"

[ureshii19]

I think that jazz, since it id such a great and classic form of music, will continue on through the pop princesses and the boy bands....it will survive. Who do you think the next Ella is? Though she can never really be replaced, I think that Jane Monheit is amazing and that she deserves so much recognition. She's on her way up people, and I can't wait to see her at the top.

[jazzypaul]

So, Jane, how are tricks lately?

[ureshii19]

Wait no - now I am confused...I am a Jane fan, derf to you...found out about her after her second album, and what tricks are you talking about? So so lost man..

[jazzypaul]

ahhh, for a second, I thought you might have been Jane's manager or something...

[RodneyDude]

I think Coypu's idea of DeathJazz is the future of Jazz. That is such an ingenious mix of heavy and smooth it makes me excited to think about the possibilities.............

[BariMusix]

I think Coypu's idea of DeathJazz is the future of Jazz. That is such an ingenious mix of heavy and smooth it makes me excited to think about the possibilities.............
Heavy and smooth? What are you talking about? DeathJazz the future? Hmmm, not hardly.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by BariMusix
Heavy and smooth? What are you talking about? DeathJazz the future? Hmmm, not hardly.

Well you can be both heavy and smooth, it's no problem. And how do you know that DeathJazz isn't the future?

[BariMusix]

How do you know it is?

[RodneyDude]

Answer his question first. Think about it for a second. There is lots of power on DeathMetal, imagine the merger of the two. Expression and Power. Yeah that's the stuff.

[lazy bird]

Is the book 'future jazz' by Howard Mandel worth bying?

[jazzypaul]

Lazy Bird,

Yes, it most certainly is. It's a good read, Howard Mandel is a great writer. Focuses mainly on the avant-garde side of things, as well it should. I highly recommend it.

[jazzypaul]

Rodney,

You talk about the intensity and power of Death Metal, without mentioning the intensity and power of Blakey, Mingus or Coltrane. There's no power and intensity there? And I most certainly would not want to see an end to swing. There are guys bringing a lot to the table that you and Coypu are not acknowleging at all. Acknowledge the past, then talk about the future. I have seen neither of you talk about the history of the music yet, or any of its key players. Let me hear you pontificate on the greatness of what was, so I know where you're coming from with what will be. Because simply saying that Death Jazz would be the future without knowing how to get there is simply laughable.

[John]

In my opinion, it isn't possible for jazz to evolve in a way that is revolutionary to what came before it, as the styles of bebop and free jazz were. I don't think jazz can change that much now while still remaining emotional, musically interesting, and accessible.

However, each good jazz artist has his/her unique style, his/her own musical ideas, and influences from other types of music. It is always enjoyable to hear music that has a new sound, but it is futile to try to look for an artist who is creating a completely different style of jazz while keeping jazz's virtues.

To Copyu and Rodneydude, as long as "Death Metal" keeps its basic premise, which is that it is about death and hate, it has nothing to offer to jazz. The lyrics that Copyu posts, like the one about vomitting and "the gummy taste of anus" make it clear that the "musicians" who play death metal are just a bunch of middle-class suburban white kids who are looking for some attention, the one's who spent their adolescence high school smoking pot and believing that they were oppressed by society while in truth they were just failures.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by John
In my opinion, it isn't possible for jazz to evolve in a way that is revolutionary to what came before it, as the styles of bebop and free jazz were. I don't think jazz can change that much now while still remaining emotional, musically interesting, and accessible.

However, each good jazz artist has his/her unique style, his/her own musical ideas, and influences from other types of music. It is always enjoyable to hear music that has a new sound, but it is futile to try to look for an artist who is creating a completely different style of jazz while keeping jazz's virtues.

To Copyu and Rodneydude, as long as "Death Metal" keeps its basic premise, which is that it is about death and hate, it has nothing to offer to jazz. The lyrics that Copyu posts, like the one about vomitting and "the gummy taste of anus" make it clear that the "musicians" who play death metal are just a bunch of middle-class suburban white kids who are looking for some attention, the one's who spent their adolescence high school smoking pot and believing that they were oppressed by society while in truth they were just failures.

They guy who wrote thoose lyrics is a professor now and the rest of the band is one of the most sucessfull death metal bands out there. They are in no way failures but rather innovators and excellent musicians (try play along with their songs if you can...). You fail to understand the incredible width that the genre holds, here are some "hatefull" lyrics that you can think about :

Sentiment

Cosmic mother awaken us in
Thine impartial love for all
Bless us that we be free from
The sway of greed and delusion
Inspire us to build a new world
One in which famine, disease and ignorance
Will be only memories of a dismal past

Creative mother arouse us to know
That we be not lost in the sands
Open our eyes

Creative mother arouse us to know
Inspire us to build a new world
Since forever we've yearned to
Quench what's never fulfilling
Lost endeavors found in a stilled
Mind if we be willing

-------- lots of death and hate there...

I must you advice to listen to the genre before you judge it!

[jazzypaul]

Coypu, it's a jazz thread. Post the lyrics to Honeysuckle Rose before you go telling me about the lyrics to a death metal song.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Rodney,

You talk about the intensity and power of Death Metal, without mentioning the intensity and power of Blakey, Mingus or Coltrane. There's no power and intensity there? And I most certainly would not want to see an end to swing. There are guys bringing a lot to the table that you and Coypu are not acknowleging at all. Acknowledge the past, then talk about the future. I have seen neither of you talk about the history of the music yet, or any of its key players. Let me hear you pontificate on the greatness of what was, so I know where you're coming from with what will be. Because simply saying that Death Jazz would be the future without knowing how to get there is simply laughable.

Yes there is plenty of power and intensity in their music. Do doubt about it!

BUT

compared to bands like Kataklysm and Cryptopsy they look like a famous female pop singer in comparison.

I think that expanding on the ideas that Cynic had would be a good idea, incorporate more jazz drumming and more of the solo styles of coltrane, holdsworth and jarzombek. Add some walking bass to that while still remain with the fusion/death basslines they had. If you take one step at the time you can be pretty safe in what you do. I think that just denying the whole idea would be stupid, why not help out and come with rhythmical ideas since you are a drummer. If it doesn't work then ok but we won't know unless we try.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Coypu, it's a jazz thread. Post the lyrics to Honeysuckle Rose before you go telling me about the lyrics to a death metal song.

Well, I prooved to him that not all DM lyrics are about death and suffering. I would never have posted the lyrics unless he had maid that claim. You must understand me this time.

[jazzypaul]

That's fine. But it's a jazz thread. Don't mention death metal at all. Show me that you know something, ANYTHING about good ol' straight ahead jazz, PLEASE!!

[fusion_lover]

i must agree with coypu....not that i like death metal but,jazz musicians are in general persons who understand music,in its essence,not like this rock bands where the guitarrist is a guy which doesnt even know what a triplet is.but this is the mainly reason why jazzist are the most closed mind in all music styles.these rockers dont understand nutin about music(some exceptions) like nirvana.but i like nirvana!Why?i dont know,but i dont like them for the same reason that i like jaco´s music for an example....i like jaco because he wrote songs with his soul,we used to play like a "bass god".nirvana guys used to write songs drugged,and they didnt undersant nutin about music!
well what im trying to explain is that a curious fact is happening in jazz.jazzist for being the best music critics(one of the bests),only hear jazz,and dont even try to hear the music of these rock bands.we cant generalize things,and im seeign here is this.Guys keep saying that pop will bury jazz,that pop sucks etc...i agree that pop sucks but i dont keep saying that its horrible(well it is but...)i at least heard britney songs twice to say that i think its a piece of ++++,and we cant generalize nutin....some jazz bands sucks,some dont....some rock band sucks others dont.... KEEP YOUR MIND OPEN !!!!!!!!!!!

[clifton]

I was hoping the death metal discussion would stay on the death jazz thread, but since it's here, let me pose a question: wouldn't a death metal-jazz fusion basically sound like Mahavishnu with apocalyptic lyrics? As for the actual future of jazz, it is found in the continuing evolution of its many idioms.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by clifton
I was hoping the death metal discussion would stay on the death jazz thread, but since it's here, let me pose a question: wouldn't a death metal-jazz fusion basically sound like Mahavishnu with apocalyptic lyrics? As for the actual future of jazz, it is found in the continuing evolution of its many idioms.

No, the basslines in Mahavishnu is nothing like a fusion of death and jazz would bring. The music has no metal elements, so once they entered you would notice a huge differance. Go listen to some Suffocation to understand the elements of standard death metal.

[jazzypaul]

Coypu, instead of telling us to go listen to death metal, remember that you are in a jazz thread. Go listen to some jazz, being that you're not even supposed to be here.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Coypu, instead of telling us to go listen to death metal, remember that you are in a jazz thread. Go listen to some jazz, being that you're not even supposed to be here.

mmm, the day you guys stop making incorrect comments about death metal is the day I won't try to help you understand it anymore. Meanwhile I feel that if you make wrong claims about DM it is my duty so set things straight.

Now go and listen to some jazz inspired death metal like Meshuggah.

[lazy bird]

Coypu,

You can claim that death metal is more intense than jazz, but It's childish to claim that 'jazz artists are like female pop singers in comparison to progr. metal'.

[jazzypaul]

Not to mention, there's that whole issue that you're not supposed to be here, Coypu. Quit avoiding the subject, and leave.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by lazy bird
Coypu,

You can claim that death metal is more intense than jazz, but It's childish to claim that 'jazz artists are like female pop singers in comparison to progr. metal'.

Have you heard Cryptopsy, Origin, Devourment, Deranged, Disgorge? Mingus sound like relax music in comparison, but as long as we agree on that death metal has more power and intensity its all I care about. The female pop singer thing was only an example, you can disregard it if it makes you feel better.

[jazzypaul]

Coypu, when you claim that Mingus can be compared to a certain female pop singer, it says nothing about your death metal bands. What it does say however, is that you refuse to listen to jazz on its level. It proves that harmonic tension means nothing to you. It proves that the only emotion that means anything to you is blind rage. It proves that while you may look for physical stamina in the players you consider great, you give no creedence to chops in the harmonic/melodic sense of the word. It proves that you not only don't know what you're talking about, but that for all of the jazz that you've stolen, you haven't absorbed one note of it. You tout Sean Malone as some sort of monster player, but did he get there by going to jazz forums and knocking the music? No, he listened to it and absorbed it. You should do the same. Death Metal isn't more intense, you're just too dense to look beneath the surface. And that's not our fault, and it's certainly not the fault of the jazz players who make great music. It's honestly not even the fault of the death metal musicians. They're doing what they want to do, and that's cool for them. But they're not so ridiculously inane as to come onto a jazz forum and knock the music. Only a fool would do something like that. So make your choice right now Coypu -- are you the fool that talks trash without being able to tell me EXACTLY what makes the jazz seem smooth to you? Or are you the guy that's better than that? The guy that might just want to learn something, and realizes that in order to learn, you must truly listen. The choice is yours.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Coypu, when you claim that Mingus can be compared to a certain female pop singer, it says nothing about your death metal bands. What it does say however, is that you refuse to listen to jazz on its level. It proves that harmonic tension means nothing to you. It proves that the only emotion that means anything to you is blind rage. It proves that while you may look for physical stamina in the players you consider great, you give no creedence to chops in the harmonic/melodic sense of the word. It proves that you not only don't know what you're talking about, but that for all of the jazz that you've stolen, you haven't absorbed one note of it. You tout Sean Malone as some sort of monster player, but did he get there by going to jazz forums and knocking the music? No, he listened to it and absorbed it. You should do the same. Death Metal isn't more intense, you're just too dense to look beneath the surface. And that's not our fault, and it's certainly not the fault of the jazz players who make great music. It's honestly not even the fault of the death metal musicians. They're doing what they want to do, and that's cool for them. But they're not so ridiculously inane as to come onto a jazz forum and knock the music. Only a fool would do something like that. So make your choice right now Coypu -- are you the fool that talks trash without being able to tell me EXACTLY what makes the jazz seem smooth to you? Or are you the guy that's better than that? The guy that might just want to learn something, and realizes that in order to learn, you must truly listen. The choice is yours.

First, I don't say that all jazz is smooth but only that all jazz in smoother than death metal. So I'm not knocking jazz here.

So why is jazz more smooth that DM? Well, almost all jazz suffer from the problem that often 1 guy is playing his heart out while the other players in the band are just backing him up. In death metal all members are free to play out fully and this leads to that the overall music can be more intense and powerfull. Sure Coltrane may do intense solos but if the rest of the band isn't playing out then Suffocation are going to be more powerfull and intense since all members is doing their part.

Another thing is speed, fast music has a tendancy to be more intense and DM is easily the overall fastest of the two genres.

Power lies alot in sound, when you watch a movie and they want to bring a powerfull feeling they use powerfull drums and bombastic music, death metal have the all this more than jazz do, jazz drumming is very smoothe compared to the blasting death metal drumming. Also to increase power DM sometime let everyone play all at the same time single slow notes and in low tuning, this creates a very powerfull sound, Suffocation are the masters of combining this with speed to create incredible intesity and powerfill sound.

[jazzypaul]

Wow, coypu, you did a damn fine job of sidestepping that one. You HAVE knocked jazz the very second you compare it in any way shape or form to Britney Spears. So yes, you did knock it.

You also managed to dismiss the entire idea that the problems that you find with jazz music are YOUR problems and not the fault of the music. You refuse to listen to jazz on its terms. Meaning that you are the intolerant one, not us.

And remember, subtlety is key. What is subtle about blast beats? That's right, nothing.

Just because you refuse to listen to jazz objectively does not make jazz smooth, less smooth than some other form of music, or anything less than the absolute greatness that it is. It makes you less of a musician, however.

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by Coypu


Have you heard Cryptopsy, Origin, Devourment, Deranged, Disgorge? Mingus sound like relax music in comparison, but as long as we agree on that death metal has more power and intensity its all I care about. The female pop singer thing was only an example, you can disregard it if it makes you feel better.

I don't agree at all that death metal has more power and intensity! I've heard a lot of death metal (Morbid Angel, Suffocation, Cradle of Filth, Cannibal Corpse, Vader,...) and none of this music is more intense than let's say John Coltrane's Village Vanguard recordings or Ascenscion. Death metal is indeed very intense and those bands produce more decibels than acoustic jazz, but it's not more intense. I went to a lot of metal concerts and after that I was still knocked out by an Anthony Braxton performance of Ghost trance music, which in my opinion is at least intense as any death metal.

[clifton]

Coypu: You don't really hear jazz. Your intellect, heart, and soul are attuned to the stylistic parameters of death metal. The aesthetic considerations of jazz will never fit your demands. The emotional release that you, Coypu, seek in music is not essential to jazz. If death metal is preferable to you, fine, so be it. Comparing it to jazz is like comparing apples to oranges, at best. You need to learn to approach music on its own terms, not your terms. I don't listen fusion the same way I listen to bebop, and I don't listen to bebop the same way I listen to the Beatles. Aesthetics are damned difficult to discuss in concrete terms, but yours need to be reconsidered if you're going to discuss jazz honestly. As for the substance of this thread, which is the future of jazz, I still maintain that jazz has many idioms, many futures. As Dexter Gordon, whose straight-ahead credentials are impeccable, once said, "Jazz is an octopus." Jazz grabs everything it can use, whether it's funk rhythms, electronica, cumbia rhythms, or hard rock tunes (I'm thinking Alex Skolnick here), jazz will continue to use everything around it, and it will, without a doubt, be jazz.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Coypu
Power lies alot in sound, when you watch a movie and they want to bring a powerfull feeling they use powerfull drums and bombastic music...

No offense, but that statement tells me more about your own rather narrow artistic appreciation than about emotional expression in art and music.

Yes, contrary to that statement, powerful emotions can be reached without bombast, speed, or volume. It takes some maturity and patience from the listener to perceive them and be affected by them, though.

Visceral's good - I like visceral. I like the reaction I get when listening to Brotzmann or Mats Gustaffson. But the other kinds of 'powerful emotions' are good, too.

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by omar zamora


No offense, but that statement tells me more about your own rather narrow artistic appreciation than about emotional expression in art and music.

Yes, contrary to that statement, powerful emotions can be reached without bombast, speed, or volume. It takes some maturity and patience from the listener to perceive them and be affected by them, though.

Visceral's good - I like visceral. I like the reaction I get when listening to Brotzmann or Mats Gustaffson. But the other kinds of 'powerful emotions' are good, too.

I agree that powerful emotions can be reached without bombast, speed or volume. Not only jazz or metal can be powerfull. Listen to f.i. classical composer Arnold Schönberg (Pierrot Lunaire, Erwartung, ...) or rock mucisian Nick Cave (The mercy seat). Death metal ain't the most powerfull music at all!

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Lazy Bird,

Yes, it most certainly is. It's a good read, Howard Mandel is a great writer. Focuses mainly on the avant-garde side of things, as well it should. I highly recommend it.

I've ordered the book today.

[bombastic]

Not! I think that guy is as square as they come. getting a republican to dig Jazz would be like trying to get the pope to dig Jazz. It simply would not happen. Those guys like crap like celine dion i think. someone buys that dreck. i don't even think they listen to music, unless it's the marine marching band playing "hail to the #*##". that guy is not my chief. at least clinton played a little tenor, but then who does he invite to the white house, the worst possible representative of bad music, none other than kenny geek! someone, please, shoot me, now.:mad: oh well, at least he got his cock sucked in the white house. he shook up this uptight country a little bit anyway.:eek:

[3pointdeli]

i guarantee gwb only listens to contemporary country.

[jazzypaul]

Hipness has nothing to do with political affiliation. I'm a libertarian, which is like being a republican without being a fascist, and you'll be hard pressed to find a guy who's a bigger proponent of this music...

[3pointdeli]

the fact that gwb doesn't listen to jazz has nothing to do with him being unhip and everything to do with him being an idiotic asshole.

[bombastic]

that's the key paul, you are not a fascist.

[bombastic]

Take my word for it, he's unhip AND he's an asshole plus an idiot. did i leave anything out?:rolleyes:

[3pointdeli]

i didn't mean to imply that he IS hip. that would be WICKED (god, i love that word) wrong.

[omar zamora]

Supposedly....William Rehnquist's favorite album is Jimmy Lyons' "We Sneezawee".

Personally, I think that's a myth (started by a magazine as a hoax), but who knows.

[bombastic]

I don't think it's possible for a true republican to dig heavy jazz. republican jazz is an oxymoron. they simply don't "get it". am i wrong? i'm always reminded of that george will asshole,some uptight guy on television when i think of republicans. maybe conservative classical music, nothing too offensive for them. i think, elevator music, the hollyridge strings play the music of aerosmith or something like that.:confused:

[jazzypaul]

There was a guy who was a hard core republican on the Jazz Central Station forums who was a HARDCORE republican <--- I am a total idiot, and have no business trying to use the english language. That was completely stupid, and we are all dumber for having read it. I apologize profusely. Now, back to our regularly scheduled post...

that was a massive Braxton nut, and really got down with Cecil Taylor. The problem is that most republicans, especially the younger ones, are TRULY right wing. Which means little government control, interference or assistance. Which is great. However, that has absolutely nothing to do with the Republican party at this point. But most of them would still rather have the republicans, who at least think that they're about minimizing government, as opposed to the democrats who embrace beuracracy. I think they're both a bunch of fascists myself.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
There was a guy who was a hard core republican on the Jazz Central Station forums who was a HARDCORE republican that was a massive Braxton nut, and really got down with Cecil Taylor

I'm pretty sure I know who you're talking about. There are at least two people I can think of (both Jazz Corner residents now). Both are my friends, even though I'm waaay (waaaaaaay) on the other side of the political spectrum. Funny, really.

[bombastic]

i would vote for nader if he ran again. at least you're sticking to your guns. now is nader a jazz fan, probably not, he's seems about as exciting as watching paint dry, but at least he's intelligent. there's a word we haven't heard in connection with the current president and rightfully so. i think his idea of art is a velvet elvis painting. nader would get things done, but this country would not ALLOW him to be elected.

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by Adam Lozo
It steams me to no end to find Bush bashing in this web site. I'll take all of Coypu's death metal posts over a single post that puts our President down. Don't you realize that we are in a war?

To hell with you Bombastard.

I suggest to discuss jazz in this thread.

[bombastic]

Blow it out of your ass! I thought john wayne was dead and gone, pilgrim.

[bombastic]

sorry, i don't support war and i don't support killing! and i don't support the president of the united states of america. i follow my own ethics, not another human beings. isn't that the reason this democracy exists. the president is no higher up than any of us posting here. he's just another human being, and a damn arrogant one if you ask me.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Wow, coypu, you did a damn fine job of sidestepping that one. You HAVE knocked jazz the very second you compare it in any way shape or form to Britney Spears. So yes, you did knock it.

You also managed to dismiss the entire idea that the problems that you find with jazz music are YOUR problems and not the fault of the music. You refuse to listen to jazz on its terms. Meaning that you are the intolerant one, not us.

And remember, subtlety is key. What is subtle about blast beats? That's right, nothing.

Just because you refuse to listen to jazz objectively does not make jazz smooth, less smooth than some other form of music, or anything less than the absolute greatness that it is. It makes you less of a musician, however.

subtlety is not all, many elements exist in music and denying the ones in DM is foolish.

Hey man, just admit that Mingus music is smoother than Dillinger Escape plan and realise that different forms of music have different strengths. When you select music for a movie you better choose music that fits each certain scene, the same goes in life, you need good variation to cover all emotions.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by lazy bird
I don't agree at all that death metal has more power and intensity! I've heard a lot of death metal (Morbid Angel, Suffocation, Cradle of Filth, Cannibal Corpse, Vader,...) and none of this music is more intense than let's say John Coltrane's Village Vanguard recordings or Ascenscion. Death metal is indeed very intense and those bands produce more decibels than acoustic jazz, but it's not more intense. I went to a lot of metal concerts and after that I was still knocked out by an Anthony Braxton performance of Ghost trance music, which in my opinion is at least intense as any death metal.

what's your definition of intense?

[jazzypaul]

And Coypu, where is your variance? Where in the world is that Lee Morgan CD? How about some Hank Mobley? Oh that's right, it's only murder if it's killing an animal, it's only wrong to burn down a church in a country where a religion is thriving, and it's only variance if it's more death metal. Wow, coypu, you're so deep...

[Coypu]

Originally posted by clifton
Coypu: You don't really hear jazz. Your intellect, heart, and soul are attuned to the stylistic parameters of death metal. The aesthetic considerations of jazz will never fit your demands. The emotional release that you, Coypu, seek in music is not essential to jazz. If death metal is preferable to you, fine, so be it. Comparing it to jazz is like comparing apples to oranges, at best. You need to learn to approach music on its own terms, not your terms. I don't listen fusion the same way I listen to bebop, and I don't listen to bebop the same way I listen to the Beatles. Aesthetics are damned difficult to discuss in concrete terms, but yours need to be reconsidered if you're going to discuss jazz honestly. As for the substance of this thread, which is the future of jazz, I still maintain that jazz has many idioms, many futures. As Dexter Gordon, whose straight-ahead credentials are impeccable, once said, "Jazz is an octopus." Jazz grabs everything it can use, whether it's funk rhythms, electronica, cumbia rhythms, or hard rock tunes (I'm thinking Alex Skolnick here), jazz will continue to use everything around it, and it will, without a doubt, be jazz.

Your argument falls flat since I actually enjoy some jazz, I listened to a Mingus song 10min ago and I liked it alot. I do however see things for what they are, I know that Suffocation are 10 times more brutal and I know that SYL are far more aggressive and I know that Mingus is a better improviser. What you fail to do is realise that jazz isn't the best in everything. Well I agree, jazz will reach at all directions and Death Metal is next.

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by Coypu


what's your definition of intense?

Highly emotional / high in degree of human feelings

[Coypu]

Originally posted by omar zamora
No offense, but that statement tells me more about your own rather narrow artistic appreciation than about emotional expression in art and music.

Yes, contrary to that statement, powerful emotions can be reached without bombast, speed, or volume. It takes some maturity and patience from the listener to perceive them and be affected by them, though.

Visceral's good - I like visceral. I like the reaction I get when listening to Brotzmann or Mats Gustaffson. But the other kinds of 'powerful emotions' are good, too.

I was talking about power itself, the feeling of power, like Ceasar when he commands a army of thousands. If you describe that with sound you are not going to end up with jazz.

[jazzypaul]

I was talking about power itself, the feeling of power, like Ceasar when he commands a army of thousands. If you describe that with sound you are not going to end up with jazz.

Never heard ascension, have you? Don't comment on that which you don't know. Which, when it comes to jazz, is almost everything. Go out and get that Lee Morgan CD, listen to it, study it, then get back to me. For now though, you have no RIGHT to comment on jazz. Kinda like your girl Britney Spears.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by lazy bird
I agree that powerful emotions can be reached without bombast, speed or volume. Not only jazz or metal can be powerfull. Listen to f.i. classical composer Arnold Schönberg (Pierrot Lunaire, Erwartung, ...) or rock mucisian Nick Cave (The mercy seat). Death metal ain't the most powerfull music at all!

Classical and DM have alot incommon, Death Metal spawned from Jazz, Metal & Classical music, Schoenberg is amazing. Lots of classical is up there with DM (when it comes to power) so yeah, jazz is however not.

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by Coypu


I was talking about power itself, the feeling of power, like Ceasar when he commands a army of thousands. If you describe that with sound you are not going to end up with jazz.

I think we deal with a semantic problem. You approach 'power' and 'intensity' from your metal background. I think most people on this board mean 'power and depth of emotion', not power of brutality.

[bombastic]

it might help to use a subtler approach. mix it up a little. the death metal thing can get a little overbearing.

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by Coypu


Classical and DM have alot incommon, Death Metal spawned from Jazz, Metal & Classical music, Schoenberg is amazing. Lots of classical is up there with DM (when it comes to power) so yeah, jazz is however not.

I think you have proved by claiming this that you're not a real jazz fan, thus I suggest you to leave this board. I wonder what they will think of you on a classical music board.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Never heard ascension, have you? Don't comment on that which you don't know. Which, when it comes to jazz, is almost everything. Go out and get that Lee Morgan CD, listen to it, study it, then get back to me. For now though, you have no RIGHT to comment on jazz. Kinda like your girl Britney Spears.

Ascension is very freeform, it doesn't display the 'ceasar' qualities I was talking about.

[bombastic]

how many guys here have actually sat through coltranes "ascension"? it's a difficult piece of music to listen to. i've listened to both versions probably 2 or 3 times each, and it's not an easy listen.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by lazy bird
I think we deal with a semantic problem. You approach 'power' and 'intensity' from your metal background. I think most people on this board mean 'power and depth of emotion', not power of brutality.

I mean power of brutality in this case, we can discuss power and depth of emotion later if the need comes.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by lazy bird
I think you have proved by claiming this that you're not a real jazz fan, thus I suggest you to leave this board. I wonder what they will think of you on a classical music board.

I like some jazz, I'm not the largest jazz fan in the world, you can have that title if you like.

[DWBass]

:D Hey, yall think this thread will reach 20+ pages?? :D

http://www.jass.com/jazzo.html Hey Coypu, click on this link and start reading. You may learn something. You are in need of a jazz education!

http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/jazz/ Here's some more! Get to it!

http://www.robotwisdom.com/jorn/jazz.html And more. Chop Chop!!


;)

[jazzypaul]

Ascension for me was a trip. 40 minutes, and it was a lot to digest, but I couldn't bring myself to turn it off. When it was over, I was spent. I listened to it again, and I started hearing a little bit of what was going on. A few days later, I put myself through it again. I started hearing more. It IS very intense. There's no doubt there. I think the reason why it's so tough is because there is so much going on. On an intensity scale of 1-10, by the time it's cooking, it pretty much stays put at about 23. At 40 minutes though, you do need to clear your evening to listen to it. That's a lot to ask. Although, I have roadtripped with it before. And you can really scare the bejeezus out of the person next to you on an airplane with it. Hee hee hee hee hee...

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
And you can really scare the bejeezus out of the person next to you on an airplane with it. Hee hee hee hee hee...

Yeah, that's a classic. he he

When I first listened to Ascension, I was already exposed to some out stuff, like 70's Sun Ra, so it didn't come as a complete shock. It's dense and layered, and the intensity is pretty non-stop. I generally don't listen to both takes (from "The Major Works..") in one sitting, because it wears me out. I still think "Live in Japan" is more intense, but "Ascension" is killin'.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by DWBass
:D Hey, yall think this thread will reach 20+ pages?? :D

http://www.jass.com/jazzo.html Hey Coypu, click on this link and start reading. You may learn something. You are in need of a jazz education!

http://hum.lss.wisc.edu/jazz/ Here's some more! Get to it!

http://www.robotwisdom.com/jorn/jazz.html And more. Chop Chop!!

;)

I'm going to take a look, meanwhile you could read this : http://www.anus.com/hsc/ , it covers alot of the aspects of metal.

[jazzypaul]

I'm going to take a look, meanwhile you could read this : http://www.anus.com/hsc/ , it covers alot of the aspects of metal.

BUT IT'S A JAZZ THREAD!!!!! WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS???

[Pharaohrock]

what kind of dorks would call their site anus.com? God, people who are into metal are like perpetual teenagers.

[DWBass]

Originally posted by Coypu


I'm going to take a look, meanwhile you could read this : http://www.anus.com/hsc/ , it covers alot of the aspects of metal. Er...ummm, nope. I don't think so!

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
what kind of dorks would call their site anus.com? God, people who are into metal are like perpetual teenagers.

It stands for : American Nihilist Underground Society

read more here :
http://www.anus.com/anus/maniphisto.html

[jazzypaul]

Let me get this straight...

a bunch of metalheads name themselves anus. Put up a site where people can look into the history of metal. Coypu, I have figured out your frustration. You just want your anus to be probed by a jazz fan.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Let me get this straight...

a bunch of metalheads name themselves anus. Put up a site where people can look into the history of metal. Coypu, I have figured out your frustration. You just want your anus to be probed by a jazz fan.

Are you trying to start a flame war? Well, I'm not going to participate, let me know when you are done being immature.

[jazzypaul]

Well, I'm not starting a flamewar with a jazz fan, I'm starting a flamewar with someone that's not even supposed to be posting here. I'm not starting a flamewar with a person who came in here knowing nothing that wants to learn, I'm starting a flamewar with someone who knows nothing about jazz and doesn't want to know anything about jazz. I'm not starting a flamewar with someone who respects this music, I'm starting a flamewar with someone who has repeatedly called it smooth and predicted its death. I'm not even really starting a flamewar with a decent human being. I'm starting a flamewar with someone who thinks its cool to burn down churches, who thought that slavery and nazism both get too bad of a rap and has more respect for a squirrel than for his fellow human beings. If that's too much for you, then don't post on threads that I'm posting on. There are plenty of other sites to go to where you can harass people. Leave this one alone.

[champjams]

wow...i think JazzyPaul has a point. If you don't love this music and have for respect for it - as the greatest musical gift America has ever offered the world - and if you wouldn't protect it with your life if necessary...then I don't think you're qualified to discuss it on any level. BTW, read my MONK quote, because that's the truth. And don't worry, Jazz will never die - no matter how underground it has to go or anything; there will always be someone to hold the flame.

[DWBass]

Hey guys, that ignore button really works!! It really does! No more Coypu posts!! Yeah!! Well, at least to those who choose to push the button!

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by champjams
If you don't love this music and have for respect for it - as the greatest musical gift America has ever offered the world - and if you wouldn't protect it with your life if necessary...then I don't think you're qualified to discuss it on any level.

Well, now, that's going a little far. In fact, I interpret your Monk quote as exactly the opposite of what you're saying.

[jazzypaul]

The problem with the ignore button is that curiosity kills this cat. I start wondering what kind of stupid thing he said this time.

[DWBass]

Hell, at this point, who cares what he says since it's never pro jazz anyway! And I'd rather ignore him than argue any more since it's moot and falls on deaf ears! I actually think he's baiting us. Besides, any idea what a Coypu is?

[jazzypaul]

I always figured he was a rat. But a hedgehog works, I guess. Cute little death metal rodent...

[bombastic]

i haven't listened to ascension in a couple of years, but it's a piece of music you don't forget. the pharoah sanders solos are always the roughest ones to get through on the late period trane stuff. i have to be in a dark room, no one home, because if they hear you listening to it, they'll think you've lost your marbles. has anyone here heard the olatunji concert, another rough one. don't get me wrong, i like this stuff, but i have to be in a certain state of mind to really hear it. it's experimental music, and i like the wildness of the sound, but this is not driving in the car music for me. it requires close attention.

[clifton]

"Ascension" is magnificent. If "Ascension" isn't intense, then nothing is. I must admit, however, that I prefer Ornette Coleman's "Free Jazz", in which I think the musicians interact more successfully, and the intensity level is more successfully sustained. Yes it's IMHO, but I listen to "Free Jazz" a lot more often than I listen to "Ascension". And on the Ornette record, you don't have to deal with Dewey Johnson.

[bombastic]

Dynamite drum solos on Free Jazz-Blackwell and Higgins, right cliff? What is it about Colemans saxophone that i find hard to take? I have trouble listening to him. it lacks warmth.

[3pointdeli]

adam said:

"It steams me to no end to find Bush bashing in this web site. I'll take all of Coypu's death metal posts over a single post that puts our President down. Don't you realize that we are in a war?"

adam, why should we all step in line to support a president that we (and the majority of americans) *didn't vote for* (i.e. didn't WANT to be our president...and still don't) just because he's trying to start an unnecessary and misguided war that could destroy our economy for decades and take many of our lives but still not result in any kind of "win"? (i guess osama bin laden is just a footnote here, right? did we win that one? what's going on there?)

if it's so easy to get you to tow the line, and to expect everyone else to do the same, it's no wonder people ignore jazz in favor of the homogenized crap that is constantly shoved down our throats.

i apologize if you were being sarcastic.

[clifton]

bombastic: I have no idea why you can't hear Ornette. Do other musicians who experiment with intonation also leave you cold, such as Jackie McLean or (sometimes) Roy Eldridge? Just wondering. Also I'm all in favor of Bush-bashing, as anyone who knows me from other boards can attest. Bush and his minions are the leaders of a wave of corporate fascism in our nation, a wave that requires the destruction of all governmental ability to control pollution and corporate misconduct. And let's have a war or three to distract us while crony capitalists run rampant. And let corporate media shove mindless pop music in our faces, while marginalizing jazz, a music that so inspires rebellion, self-expression, and freedom that it was banned by the Nazis and the Soviets. Do I sound paranoid? Are you aware that only ten large companies own most of the media in America? Did you know that FCC Chairman Michael Powell (Colin's son) wants to repeal every regulation that prevents one company from owning all media in any city? That means, for example, that Fox News, or maybe Viacom, would be allowed to own every single newspaper, t.v. station, radio station, and ISP in your town. I am not making this up. Jazz stands for everything not Bush. It's no coincidence that President Clinton had all those jazz concerts at the White House, while Bush invites country singers. I believe we're in the political fight of our lives. I don't believe in the Bush Gang. I believe in jazz.

[champjams]

Hey guys? Umm hello? This is a JAZZ board. Since we're not going to talk about death metal anymore (hopefully, thank God) then let's not talk about politics either. I, being a Republican, would much rather carry on lively debates about Jazz instead of discussing Communists with internet access.

Monk's quote says that you can't make Jazz go anywhere, it's going and if you're involved with it then you know that, and you're going with it. Monk was directly involved with the music; he was qualifed (obviously) to discuss the future of Jazz. If someone isn't involved with it to such an extent that if affects the greater portion of their sense of life, or their life itself, then that person is not qualified to discuss where Jazz is going. I would even go so far as to say that a better portion of so-called "Jazz fans" are not qualified to seriously carry on a debate about the nature, and future of Jazz. The artists who are intimately invovled with the music are the ones who are truly able to discuss the topic. That is not to say that they KNOW where Jazz is going. But at least they might have a more informed idea.

[jazzypaul]

I would be glad to drop the idea of talking politics if the previous comment wasn't so overtly fascist. And the problem comes in is that there are jazzers of every political flavor, and while ths would be good for the scene if no one spoke and we all played, we all do speak, and there is gridlock, and the public is confused, and the idiots who are most visible get ahead. Let me explain...

The Jazz Republican: Wynton Marsalis...wishes things could go back to the way they were. Gets his money from people who see the decay of the modern scene and remember the good old days. Younger musicians look up to him because they see the parts of his message that they can relate to without seeing the big picture: that he is just as bad as the opposition.

The Jazz Democrat: Larry Coryell...idealistic in his youth, he's now tamed himself a bit to gather a wider constituency. Unfortunately, in the process of it all, he lost what made him him. In the process, he basically became just like the jazz republican, but slightly different enough to get a different group of people to follow him. But really, what are the differences in the big picture?

The Jazz Libertarian: Charles Mingus...A staunch believer in basic principles which defined this music, he still believed in the absolute freedom of expression, and as long as it didn't hurt the music, whatever you needed to say could be said.

The Jazz Green Party: Anthony Braxton...absolutely no one understands his platform, but a selct group of people enjoy his message anyway and will do whatever they can to further his message.

What I'm trying to say here, is that jazz is woven into our culture. To not include politics in a jazz discussion just seems somewhat silly to me.

Champjams...please don't become a jazz fascist. Yes, jazz musicians MAY know the music better, but anyone that has studied it and loved it has the ability to speak on it. That's kinda like saying you can only vote if you're a politician. That would suck too.

[champjams]

Resorting to name calling....just like a liberal.

Everyone has an opinion, but does that make it valid?

[clifton]

champjams: assuming that to Republicans, the term "liberal" is very derogatory, when you say "just like a liberal", are you perhaps resorting to name calling yourself? It's just something to think about.

[omar zamora]

Hmm, that's an, um, interesting interpretation, champjams.

Since, I have little interest or desire to "seriously carry on a debate about the nature, and future of Jazz", I guess it doesn't affect me. You know, being a so-called "jazz fan" and all. I'll leave those discussions to the experts - let's see how long the music lasts like that.

[jazzypaul]

Sorry champjams, but between the comment that only musicians can speak to where the music is going, knowing full well that it can't go anywhere without the support of the non-musicians who enjoy it, and knowing that you had said in another thread that those who would attempt to modernize the music would have to "answer to the masters" you DO come off as a jazz fascist. That is, someone who would stress uniformity at the cost of the individual. It's not name-calling, it's an observation. It's an observation that I would love to be proven wrong on. But you're so firmly planted on one party line that even your interpretation of that Monk quote is dead wrong. What he meant by that is that things just happen. You can't chart a course for them, you just have to let them be. I find it at least somewhat frightening that people that would want us to play nothing but standards and adhere to strict code of conduct for what is or isn't jazz would use THAT quote to back up their claims. I don't know about you, but I have a vision for what I want my jazz to say, and I am more than willing to follow the music where it takes me, not guide the music to where I want to take it.

All of this said, I don't hold that against you, I wasn't name calling. As jazz musicians and fans, we ought to spend less time worrying about semantics and more time worrying about each other. We ought to quit worrying about the state of pop music today, and instead, learn how to market ourselves to those kids who might just be a little bit more forward thinking, given half a chance to do just that. Anyone who wants to talk about this music in a positive light -- LET THEM!!! Musician or not, they're on our side! Anyone who wants to share this music with their friends, put it on a stage in an unusual place, make it something more than a cultish mystique for a small segment of the record buying audience...LET THEM! So long as what they say stays true to the heart of this music and the rich tradition of it, I say the more power to them.

[champjams]

I am a Jazz Facist - it seems to be to be quite clear that you don't even know what that is. As a Jazz Facist, I advocate for the music. The music has meaning before, and beyond, you. We have our framers, and they had their original intent. The truth never changes. It's not your music - it's the music. Just because Louis, Duke, Billie, Bird, and Monk are all dead, doesn't mean that their truth died with them. Unless of course, us Jazz Facists allow you college boy liberals to usurp what once was a great art form.

Rather than worry about how to market Jazz to people, I think we should all do what Sonny Stitt said, "Learn to play the blues first."

[jazzypaul]

Champjams...(1) I am not a liberal. As a libertarian, I represent the TRUE right...less government, more personal responsibility. Not this Republican crap where less government equals more money to spend on squelching human rights where they conflict with religious doctrine. So, don't call me a liberal again until you've studied the libertarian platform.

(2) Ever see Spike Lee's Malcolm X? At the end where the school teacher is telling her students that each one of them is Malcolm X as well? Well, jazz for me, is the same thing. For each of us that allow ourselves to become one with this music, and that is, many of the people on this board, We are jazz. This is the music of Duke, Billie, Basie, Miles, Trane, Ornette, Shepp, Rahsaan and Sun Ra, but it is MY music too. Everytime I hit the bandstand and try to make something new and inherently me, this music is me, and mine, as well. I don't discount the legacies of the greats before me, but I'll be damned if they're the last of the line, my dear.

(3) We agree on Stitt. Anyone that says anything good about Stitt cannot be all bad in my book.

(4) unless you want this music to die, marketing is key.

(5) College boy liberal types trying to usurp what once was a great artform? What, it's not a great artform today? What, doing exactly what the masters did 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70 years ago is now suddenly a bad thing? What, bringing jazz into a modern aesthetic will destroy the art? Do you realize what you're implying here, Wynton? It's scary that so many would want to make this repetoiry music for the elite! Jazz wasn't born amongst the elite, and it shouldn't move there!!! Jazz was never meant to be made a lady of! She was a prostitute, a drug addict and a populist! I hope her worst days are far behind her, but she is still one with the common man who has open ears and an open heart. And that you would dare think otherwise scares me to death, Champjams.

[champjams]

First, let me get my boots on - or rather, my waders.

Before you pronounce that Jazz is yours, you really should have a few conversations with some real Jazz musicians. This music was never about any person, it is not going to be enriched by some amount of "you" being injected into it; it's the music of people, and it's not about a way of making music - but about a way of living life, in a way that these people percieved their world. And from that, truths were extracted. No amount of contemporary anything will change any of the truths of Jazz. Your reference to Wynton, who performs at an advanced high school level, is extremely humorous. Wynton is as irrelevant as you are.

[jazzypaul]

ahhhh...Champjams, my young high school know it all...real jazz musicians? And who are you to judge? Where are your credentials? If I'm not mistaken, you're still in High School trying to make Oklahoma into a viable jazz scene before you go off to New York, where you'll be lucky to wash dishes with your holier than thou attitude. You amuse me. If that's what you're going for, it worked.

[champjams]

Like all liberals...once again you are reduced to name calling.

Jazzypaul, I want you to notice that when you start name calling you have no point to make. That's an indication of when you lose the debate.

My credentials are rather extensive, and I'm not going to be put on the spot by you.

[jazzypaul]

Considering your many shots on many outstanding players, your shots on me, and that according to your profile that you're only 18, if you've got credentials, you do need to prove yourself. Put your money where your mouth is Champ...If for no other reason than, I'll shut up if you can prove to me that you're so far along that I have nothing to gain by not engaging you.

[champjams]

My age has nothing to do with it. My ideas stand for themselves. I'm not in a spitting contest with you. If your ideas aren't strong enough to stand for themselves, too bad - mine are.

As for my credentials, they are evident when I play the Bb blues on my gig.

[jazzypaul]

mine are, and they have. If your only credentials are getting through a Bb blues, then you're gonna be standing in line a long time. There's no need for a spitting contest, you're right. I just wish you'd tame it down a little bit. Rhetoric gets us nowhere.