Fusion

[fusion_lover]

Hey im surprised when i was checkin´ out the last threads,and i saw that most guys dont like fusion!well this is a matter of taste,but,its a fact that jaco have reinvented the eletric bass and jazz,and he deserve some credit(in my opinion a LOT of credits)!!!Marcus Miller is also a VERY good bassist...i think i enjoy fusion because i play bass but its not,because in one fusion cd u will find funk,fusion,(in live albuns crowd wenting mad hahah just kiding)im just trying to defend my postion,but i think when u listen to fusion u just close ur eyes and let it go!!!!


listen to songs like these above and u will change ur mind:
-Portrait Of Tracy(Jaco)
-Continuum(Jaco)
-Everglades(Scott)
-Moons(Marcus)
-Panther(Marcus)

-Lucy and Linus(i know this is not fusion but i putted here just to introduce this song to everybody in the planet,because its GREATTTTTTTTTTTT)

[Coypu]

Welcome, you are perfectly correct that there aren't alot of fusion fans here on this forum but there are still a few who likes it here.

Being a bassplayer I am a Jaco fan aswell so it is always fun to see that there are more who appreciate his work.

some fusion / prog metal I like :

Mahavishnu Orchestra
Tribal Tech
Allan Holdsworth

Gordian Knot
Spastic Ink
Fredrik Thordendal

[Joel]

fusion_lover, welcome to the board.

How about Pat Metheny's Bright Size Life?
Jaco plays bass in that "well fused" album of straight ahead,contemporary and fusion jazz.

How about World Fusion?, I recently acquired Joe Zawinul's Faces & Places and its one great album.

I bought my first Tribal Tech album today, Rocket Science. Holdsworth get's my vote too.

My favorite Marcus Miller album is Live and More, uninhibited and always slamming.

-----

Coypu, is Michael Manring used to be (or still is?) a Windham Hill artist? or is that a different person youre referring to?

[lilolee]

That Mike Manring is one and the same as on Windham. If you check out his web site www.manthing.com you'll see he has moved on (ahem) from there.

The McGill/Manring/Stevens CD Controlled by Radar is a must get.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Joel
Coypu, is Michael Manring used to be (or still is?) a Windham Hill artist? or is that a different person youre referring to?

I'm not sure, I don't know alot about Manring except for some solo songs and his work with Attention Deficit so I have no idea. I checked their site though and he was not listed there so it seems unlikely.

[lilolee]

As I said same Mike Manring. Check out his stuff with Michael Hedges which has some great acoustic guitar playing.

Lee

[3pointdeli]

i like fusion. i'm not a big fan of weather report (my favorite stuff of theirs has jaco on DRUMS!) i like pretty much everything j. mclaughlin was involved in up through shakti (after that i tend to lose interest...things get way too polished for my tastes.) billy cobham's "spectrum" is a killer (yes, i know, jm isn't on that one.) tony williams lifetime...incredible. there are tons more that i like from the early fusion era...up to say 1975 or so.

you're right, there are some folks who have stated that they don't care for fusion, or that it isn't jazz (i don't care to argue that one, because it's not important to me either way.) i'll bet there are more fusion fans here than it seems like.

[omar zamora]

Even though Miles' electric period is some of my favorite music, I'm not a big fan of fusion in general. In fact, I wouldn't even call Miles' work from IASW to Agharta fusion.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I like some of the work by Miles' disciples: Mwandishi, Headhunters, the first two RTF albums, the original Mahavishnu lineup, Lifetime, and Weather Report. My favorite WR is the early stuff, where Zawinul and Shorter attempt to extend the aesthetic they first developed with Miles IASW and Bitches Brew. I like some of the later stuff, especially Heavy Weather, but I begin to lose interest after that.

Outside of that stuff, my interest varies. It's not that I dislike it all - it's that a lot of what I've heard leaves me indifferent, and a good portion of it I just do not like.

At its worse, it can lead to the same excessiveness and bloatedness that the worst prog rock has. Fusion musicians seem to obsess over 'chops' and showing off, and most of the fusion I've heard sounds like jam sessions. I'm sure it's not all like that, though.

[lilolee]

Of course what I find most disappointing with Fusion is highlighted by most of what has been said above. Most of the Fusion we are saying is good is fron the '70's.

A sad state of affairs some 30 years later. OK we'll wheel out Tribal Tech, and Coypu will mention Gordians Knot (which I must thank him for and am in the process of getting hold of).

So I think our task is to come up with some contempory bands. Manring/McGill/Stevens and Hellborg/Lane/Stevens spring to mind. There must be others we are missing out on.

[3pointdeli]

wasn't it hellborg/lane/sipe (not stevens)? not trying to nitpick, but i've got to make sure the home-town guy (jeff sipe, aka apt. q-258) gets his credit. it could very well be another album i'm thinking of.

i enjoyed the part of the bozzio/levin/stevens cd i heard. maybe some of you might like that. that's probably more prog than fusion though.

[lilolee]

Oh my poor brain. You are correct of course. All these 3 name bans do me in.:confused:

I like the drumming of Bozzio. So complain about him being mechanical, just like Bruford, but I like the term precision.

Mick Karn made a couple of good albums with Bozzio and David Torn, PolyTown and another (brain fails again)

Lee

[Coypu]

Since Fusion boarders to prog rock/metal I'm going to name a few bands that are hard to put in specific genres but still are well worth mentioning. Check them out if possible :

Cosmosquad - sample (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/cosmosquad%20-%20Epapo%20Funk.mp3)
Aghora - sample (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/aghora%20-%20Kali_Yuga.mp3)
Dysrhythmia - sample (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/dysrhythmia%20-%20Four,%20Five,%20Six%20Minutes%20Late.mp3)
Mattias IA Eklund - sample (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/01%20-%20MATTIAS%20-IA-%20EKLUNDH%20-%20Apparatus.mp3)
Spastic Ink - sample (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/spastic%20ink%20-%20the%20mad%20data%20race.mp3)
Watchtower - sample (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/watchtower%20-%20the%20fall%20of%20reason.mp3)
Solitary speaking of theoretical confinement - sample (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/18.mp3)
Spiral Architect - sample (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/Spiral%20Architect%20-%20A%20Sceptics%20Universe%20-%2005%20-%20Insect.mp3)
Darkhall - sample (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/dark_hall_-_The_Pharaoh_and_the_Nomad.mp3)

[3pointdeli]

the only reason i knew that one was because of jeff sipe being a fellow atlantan. there is definitely no shortage of "three name" groups.

i'm not a huge bozzio fan, but it's not because he's mechanical, it's because i haven't heard a lot of his stuff (other than his zappa period.). i am a big fan of bruford though. maybe he is mechanical, but it works for the groups he's played with (yes, king crimson, etc.) when i want to hear loose playing i listen to philly joe jones and not king crimson. i can't relate to people who only enjoy one way of playing.

[lazy bird]

In my opinion jazz has always been an eclectic music form, thus I would call fusion a sort of jazz. I like fusion, but prefer the timbre of acoustic jazz. It's a matter of taste.

I don't agree that most good fusion is from the 70's. How about John Zorn's Naked City, Medeski Martin & Wood, ... ?

[fusion_lover]

i love tribal tech but the bass solos were such a new thing in an age which the bass was just a little part(VERY little) of the music,they brought this GREAT instrument to the spotlights,the sound of the bass in the jazz is something like a partner of the piano,and this is the great deal,i admire STU HAMM as much as i admire Jaco,thaths i cant figure out why most of this forum members dont like fusion.

[jazzypaul]

Personally, I think Bruford's jazz playing is exciting because it has edge, and it has edges. No, it's not as loose as a Philly Joe or a Billy Higgins (God Bless You, Billy), but it has its own distinct thing. As for Bozzio, he was Zappa's Tony Williams, Hendrix's Mitch Mitchell or Trane's Elvin Jones. Those two were just like peas and carrots, Jenny. Bozzio's work outside of the realm of Zappa always dissapointed me, especially his solo stuff. It doesn't feel musical, and it very rarely feels like its complementing anything. Just me though, and I'm wrong often.

[3pointdeli]

bruford kicks ass on the "earthworks" dvd ("footloose in nyc")

i'm not a huge fan of bill bruford's earthworks (something about the saxophonist's tone turns me off...not that he isn't a good player), but this dvd has some exciting playing...and a close up look at brufords latest unorthodox set-up in action.

you can probably get the dvd cheap off of amazon.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by lazy bird
I don't agree that most good fusion is from the 70's. How about John Zorn's Naked City, Medeski Martin & Wood, ... ?

Although I can see why one would associate NC and MMW with Fusion, it really doesn't sound right to me. I guess I'm associating 'Fusion' (with a capital F) with a relatively specific area of music, but I see your point.

In that case, I'd include Last Exit as well.

[clifton]

I recommend what I would call "the new fusion", where jazz musicians fuse with electronica and DJ aesthetics. This includes MMW and John Scofield but I think Tim Hagans/Bob Belden "ReAnimation Live" and Matthew Shipp's experiments are more interesting and provocative. David S. Ware's "Corridors And Parallels" is a must-have, a brilliant, ground breaking album in which Shipp's synth work (and rhythm programs) are beautifully integrated into Ware's essentially acoustic music. Don't miss it.

[lazy bird]

I have the Tim Hagans / animation - imagination cd and I must admit this cd has more 'balls' than most dance-jazz-fusion like Saint Germain, etc...

[DWBass]

Originally posted by lazy bird
I have the Tim Hagans / animation - imagination cd and I must admit this cd has more 'balls' than most dance-jazz-fusion like Saint Germain, etc... I don't know what St. German is....but it ain't fusion!! I can't even classify his work!

[jherschmann]

Well, I'm new to this forum as I have just discovered this site! But I feel I am in the right place here. Being a huge jaz fan I feel I should add a few words here, especially as I also dig fusion a lot and I like to ignite a controverse discussion every now and then!

It is always interesting when jazz and fusion people get into a discussion about what is jazz and what isn't or why they don't like fusion! I personally believe in that saying that there is just good and bad music, and it doesn't matter whether it is in any particular style or not. The important thing is to be open minded enough to embrace different styles of music. Most great artists have done this.

As for myself, when I seriously started collecting music more than twenty years ago it wasn't jazz related at all! Actually, I started buying a lot of music from Funk and Soul bands because I could relate to the dance aspect of that music. The next step in the early eighties took me to fusion of the day (Sanborn, Scott, Brecker Brothers, Khan, etc.). Over the years I worked my way back in time to discover the classics of fusion (Weather Report, Return To Forever, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Headhunters, etc.) from the 70s. Then I got more and more hooked on the classic Blue Note albums from the 60's and 50's and via them discovered many Jazz gems from various labels and eras.

Well, to cut a long story short up to this day I continue to discover great music be it the great early big bands from the 30s and 40s, Be bop, Hard Bop, Cool, West Coast, Jazzrock, Fusion and in recent years increasingly Latin and Brazilian music! One of my favourite music styles is still fusion, though!

But I listen to anything from Prez, Hawk, Bean, Bird, Dizzy, Miles, Art, Monk, Trane, Mingus to name just a few of my favourites, who, of course, are all masters of their art to fusionites like Tribal Tech, Mike Stern, Bob Berg, Victor Wooten, Dennis Chambers, Uzeb, Yellowjackets or Casiopea! Add folks like Tito Puente, Poncho Sanchez, Johnny Pacheco, Fania All Stars or Eddie Palmieri from the Latin Quarter or Carlinhos Brown, Djavan, Ivan Lins, Paulinho DaCosta, Azymuth or Antonio Carlos Jobim from Brazil and you get the idea!

All of those mentioned and many more I consider masters of their art and they to me symbolize what great and good music is all about.

So...

Jazz?
Fusion?
Funk?
Latin?
Brazilian?
<Substitute your favourite style her>?

Yes, as long as it is good!

Comments?

[omar zamora]

Clifton,

Ware's "Corridors.." is indeed a great album. It really revitalized the group after playing it so safe on the previous Columbia effort.


And Shipp is doing some interesting work. It's not only his own albums, but his work with Thirsty Ear's Blue Series has yielded some very good genre-blurring work. From last year alone there was his album (which I haven't heard), Mat Maneri's "Sustain" which is just amazing, Spring Heeled Jack's "Amassed" (follow-up to "Masses"), and DJ Spooky's "Optometry" (mixed results, imo).

The Maneri is closer to the 'traditional' Fusion aesthetic, though it has quite a few surprises. But the other ones are all harder to classify, and fall within the "new fusion" that you mentioned.

[DWBass]

Originally posted by jherschmann
Well, I'm new to this forum as I have just discovered this site! But I feel I am in the right place here. Being a huge jaz fan I feel I should add a few words here, especially as I also dig fusion a lot and I like to ignite a controverse discussion every now and then!

It is always interesting when jazz and fusion people get into a discussion about what is jazz and what isn't or why they don't like fusion! I personally believe in that saying that there is just good and bad music, and it doesn't matter whether it is in any particular style or not. The important thing is to be open minded enough to embrace different styles of music. Most great artists have done this.

As for myself, when I seriously started collecting music more than twenty years ago it wasn't jazz related at all! Actually, I started buying a lot of music from Funk and Soul bands because I could relate to the dance aspect of that music. The next step in the early eighties took me to fusion of the day (Sanborn, Scott, Brecker Brothers, Khan, etc.). Over the years I worked my way back in time to discover the classics of fusion (Weather Report, Return To Forever, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Headhunters, etc.) from the 70s. Then I got more and more hooked on the classic Blue Note albums from the 60's and 50's and via them discovered many Jazz gems from various labels and eras.

Well, to cut a long story short up to this day I continue to discover great music be it the great early big bands from the 30s and 40s, Be bop, Hard Bop, Cool, West Coast, Jazzrock, Fusion and in recent years increasingly Latin and Brazilian music! One of my favourite music styles is still fusion, though!

But I listen to anything from Prez, Hawk, Bean, Bird, Dizzy, Miles, Art, Monk, Trane, Mingus to name just a few of my favourites, who, of course, are all masters of their art to fusionites like Tribal Tech, Mike Stern, Bob Berg, Victor Wooten, Dennis Chambers, Uzeb, Yellowjackets or Casiopea! Add folks like Tito Puente, Poncho Sanchez, Johnny Pacheco, Fania All Stars or Eddie Palmieri from the Latin Quarter or Carlinhos Brown, Djavan, Ivan Lins, Paulinho DaCosta, Azymuth or Antonio Carlos Jobim from Brazil and you get the idea!

All of those mentioned and many more I consider masters of their art and they to me symbolize what great and good music is all about.

So...

Jazz?
Fusion?
Funk?
Latin?
Brazilian?
<Substitute your favourite style her>?

Yes, as long as it is good!

Comments? Yeah!! My thoughts exactly!!

[Coypu]

Yeah keeping an open mind towards different styles and genres is very important. If only more people realised this then the world would be a far better place.

[jazzypaul]

this coming from a guy that calls Monk "smooth" and compares Mingus to Britney Spears...

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
this coming from a guy that calls Monk "smooth" and compares Mingus to Britney Spears...

Well the music was smooth so why not call it by its name?

And the comparison was the level of intensity if I remember correctly, britney spears do have some songs with power and intensity like Oops I did it again so I don't think that the comparison was unfair. Mingus do however had alot more talent and skill that britney though.

[3pointdeli]

must we go down this road AGAIN?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
must we go down this road AGAIN?

I'm done, I just explained my view on jazzypauls post.

To continue with the thread I will recomend a band called Darkhall which is a Fusion group that have a very nice style that incorporates egyptian elements as well as more regular fusion.

Credits: Flute - Flamp Sorvari,
Bass & Keyboards - Steve Di Giorgio,
Drums - Chris Dugan,
Guitar & Shaker - Ken Schultz...

Music Written By Steve Di Giorgio, Performed By Dark Hall

Here is a sample song : The pharao and the nomad (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/dark_hall_-_The_Pharaoh_and_the_Nomad.mp3)