Admitting your pop soul.

[KolumBUZZ]

Maybe because I grew up in the 80s and was conditioned by saccharine pop on top 40 radio...oh hell, I really don't know why- but I have a soft spot in my heart for certain qualities of pop music. For me, (and maybe reflecting my being a musician) it's not about artists and whatever charisma they may have, or the damn words to the song, it's really about the writing and the simple, lyrical song forms. I am just a sucker for some sentimental pop songs....examples off the top of my head-- Chicago "Will you still love me?", Bryan Adams "Heaven", Toto's "Africa", Berlin's "Take my Breath Away", oh you get the idea...

I could sit here and front like I only like the more musically sophisticated shit like Sting's "Fields of Gold" or "Fragile", but I like the more obvious and cloying forms as well. There are some limits, of course, but if something projects a really convincing sentimental mood and I'm in that kind of mood, I can get with it.

I think pop is a perfectly valid form of music. I wouldn't want a world without pop music in fact. The reason pop music causes resentment is that the performers are often far less talented than the writers themselves, and also because it eats up the market at the expense of other valid music forms.

Pop writing is a skill though and I would challenge any jazz musicians out there to write a pop tune that is not completely cliche-ridden. It's not easy. I've tried- my pop tunes still come out sounding like a jazz musician trying to write for the pop idiom.


Allright now- any other musicians feel ready to confess?

[Muskrat Ramble]

I have great admiration for the people who write those hit tunes for hack performers like Britney Spears. You're right: in the pop arena, the talent clearly lies with the songwriters most of the time.

There's no shame in liking any kind of music: if it moves you, that's good enough. There's a reason millions and millions of people get attached to certain pop songs, and all composers could learn from some study of good pop tunes. Look at how weak so many jazz melodies are. Jazz would probably be significantly more popular if its players/composers spent more time focusing on catchy melodies instead of just coming up with simple "blowing tunes" all the time. The latter are fun for the musicians but alien and boring to most listeners.

Anyway, almost all I play on guitar is rock songs, including catchy, relatively simple (to play, not to write) pop-like tunes by The Cure, Weezer, Foo Fighters, etc., not just intricate heavy metal or whatever. I feel no shame for any of my music tastes, whether rock, pop, jazz, classical, opera, whatever. I even freely admit to liking the Bee Gees :) That type of music isn't normally my cup of tea, but damn if they weren't gifted pop songwriters. I really admire that.

[bombastic]

I've never heard a good britney spears song. The bee gees had some great early songs, their harmonies are good.

[Alexander]

I often find that I like a pop song in spite of myself (such as "Stacy's Mom" by Fountains of Wayne). I know that it's crap, but it's catchy, fun crap. If you find yourself liking a pop song despite the fact that you dislike pop music most of the time, that means the songwriters and producers are doing their jobs. Remember, those 3 minute pieces of fluff are *meant* to be enjoyable. After all, what's more pathetic than a pop song that *isn't* hummable and gets stuck in your head?

The flip side, though, is that all of the elements that make a pop song successful are the same as those that make it intensely annoying once you've been over-exposed to the same song. I'm already sick of "Stacy's Mom," and I think I've heard it two or three times. But the first time I heard it, I have to admit that I tapped my foot.

[jazzypaul]

Originally posted by bombastic
I've never heard a good britney spears song. The bee gees had some great early songs, their harmonies are good.

More stereotypical bullshit from Bombastic. A friend of mine at some point in her theory studies, decided she was going to pick apart some tunes by Britney, N-Sync and a few others, because she was going to tear them apart and expose them for the terrible tunes that they are. Instead, what she found were tunes with very intricate chordal structures that did things that Zeppelin, The Allmans, and a million other talented rock bands never could, not to mention, a lot of run of the mill jazz. If good is a SUBJECTIVE term, then you couldn't be more wrong, as usual. If good is an OBJECTIVE term, then that's different. But, "I've never heard a good Britney Spears song" needs to instead be "I've never heard a Britney Spears song that I've liked." As a musician, you should damn well know better.

[Muskrat Ramble]

The simple fact that those Britney Spears singles are so catchy (even when that's not the type of music I normally like--I'm more of a metalhead) and millions and millions of people love those songs speaks volumes. Her songwriters obviously have a very fine grasp of their craft. I just don't buy the common elitist argument that music has to be complex or confusing to be good and that anything that enjoys widespread popularity must necessarily suck or be shallow because those undefined "masses" like it.

Heck, like Leonard Bernstein said of the opening of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony, it's simple "child's play," but it's what you do with those simple things that separates the successful composers from the failures.

I often find that I like a pop song in spite of myself (such as "Stacy's Mom" by Fountains of Wayne). I know that it's crap, but it's catchy, fun crap. If you find yourself liking a pop song despite the fact that you dislike pop music most of the time, that means the songwriters and producers are doing their jobs. Remember, those 3 minute pieces of fluff are *meant* to be enjoyable. After all, what's more pathetic than a pop song that *isn't* hummable and gets stuck in your head?

But that begs the question: if you like it, even in spite of yourself, as you say, then why is it crap?

[Noj]

I bought Michael Jackson's THRILLER recently because I had the urge to hear "Human Nature." I've always been a big fan of OFF THE WALL too.

I like Pharrell Williams' group N.E.R.D...hip hop twinged with rock...corny lyrics, but it grooves.

Toto "Africa":mad2: Out of the clear blue sky this evil song will magically show up in my head, uninvited. Some sort of 80s MTV generation curse. A-Ha's "Take On Me" comes packaged with the same curse free of charge.:mad:

[Muskrat Ramble]

Toto "Africa" Out of the clear blue sky this evil song will magically show up in my head, uninvited. Some sort of 80s MTV generation curse. A-Ha's "Take On Me" comes packaged with the same curse free of charge.

Man, now I'll have both of those stuck in my head all day! Well, it says something for those tunes that I can remember them vividly so well years after the fact! Can't say that about many jazz melodies.

Don't forget "Heat of the Moment" by Asia! And the "Safety Dance" by Men without Hats and "Come on, Eileen" by Dexy's Midnight Runners and "She Blinded Me with Science" by Thomas Dolby and "Down Under" by Men at Work and the "Final Countdown" by Europe and "Hungry Like the Wolf" by Duran Duran :) I could go on for pages, but I'll spare you. Just remember, when you get a song stuck in your head, start singing the old McDonald's (or was it Burger King?) jingle to get rid of it: "Two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onion on a sesame-seed bun" ;)

[Noj]

Dang you Muskrat Ramble! I can't stop hearing "The Final Countdown's" cheesey synthesizer in my head. AAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHH!

Big Mac, Fillet Of Fish, Quarter Pounder, french fries, icey Coke, thick shake, sundaes, and apple pies...:laugh:

[bombastic]

I've never heard a britney spears song that i liked. I'm not going to throw away good money on such drivel. :laugh: paul, i don't care about your friends "dissertation" on the music of the partridge family!!! :confused: :rolleyes: :laugh: unlike you paul, i can admit i'm wrong, but not on this one.

[3pointdeli]

do you guys think britney spears writes her own material?

that's sad.

[bombastic]

She can barely sing the "material". she's horrible. You won't hear too much more from her.

[jazzypaul]

She gets it across. Not with the grace of Ella or the style of Sassy, but she gets it across. Of the modern teenie pop sensations, Christina Aguilera is about the only one with any talent, and that girl can sing. Probably not as well with all of that shit in her face, but she does what she does well.

As far as I know, Britney is one of many that simply sings songs that others write for her. Which isn't too far off of what Sinatra and Elvis both did.

Bombastic, I admit when I'm wrong. Here, I'm not wrong. I didn't say that Britney was an amazing singer, I didn't say that her arrangers come up with new and entirely fresh ways to present pop music. I said that the songwriters for her and many other pop acts write songs with a lot of harmonic muscle to them. Some of them do have good melodies as well. I can agree that I don't like the presentation. But, I don't like Eric Marienthal's interpretation of Work Song, either. Does that make Work Song a bad tune? Not the last time I checked.

[jazzypaul]

Originally posted by bombastic
She can barely sing the "material". she's horrible. You won't hear too much more from her.
Never underestimate the potency of bullshit in small doses...

[Noj]

Britney's videos are great on mute. J-Lo and Beyonce's too.;)

[bombastic]

I don't even like looking at britney spears. she reminds me of bad music. the only thing i could watch her in is a porno movie. she looks like a barbie doll porno actress. no singing allowed!!!

[Noj]

Tone it down dude! Ladies frequent the board too...

[PiousBionicus]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
A friend of mine at some point in her theory studies, decided she was going to pick apart some tunes by Britney, N-Sync and a few others, because she was going to tear them apart and expose them for the terrible tunes that they are. Instead, what she found were tunes with very intricate chordal structures that did things that Zeppelin, The Allmans, and a million other talented rock bands never could, not to mention, a lot of run of the mill jazz. If good is a SUBJECTIVE term, then you couldn't be more wrong, as usual. If good is an OBJECTIVE term, then that's different. But, "I've never heard a good Britney Spears song" needs to instead be "I've never heard a Britney Spears song that I've liked." As a musician, you should damn well know better.

You may be right about the songs being a lot more intricate and well written than people give them credit for, but I feel that has very little to do with it. It is largely due to the artists image and not the actual songs. For example, if the writer of Britney's music were to release it as their own song, would it become so popular? I don't think it would. Obviously this isn't always the case, but I would say the majority of popular music has absolutely nothing to do with musical talent or the intricate chord structures of the song.

[jazzypaul]

right, but this thread is about quality pop music. And if it is well written, then it is quality stuff, right? People are so quick to confuse the artist or the style with the talent.

[KolumBUZZ]

Eric Marienthal is a fucking badass.

[Quatermass]

I'm going to shock people and admit that I don't think Robbie Williams is that bad even his attempt at swing was listenable.

Ohh I don't think Britney's that particulary attractive. Considering the rubbish that is cropping up in the charts it seems no surprise that at work all the young people are putting Elvis records on in the duke box.

[PiousBionicus]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
right, but this thread is about quality pop music. And if it is well written, then it is quality stuff, right? People are so quick to confuse the artist or the style with the talent.

"Admitting your pop soul." This thread is not just about "quality pop music", it's about just pop music in general and whether anyone here likes it.

[jazzypaul]

Well, I can't speak for Kolum-Pharaoh-Buzz-Rock ;) on this one, but there is certainly a bit of humility and awe in his post. He understands both the importance and the need for pop music. Which IS something important, n'est pas? Remember, hearing Britney makes Lee Morgan just that much more impressive.

As for your claim that it's all about the selling and not about the product, you're partially right. You're right, Britney is not the best singer on the planet. But, the songwriting IS top notch, and let's not forget, the guys (and gals) playing behind her in the studio aren't exactly chopped liver. These studio cats can play shit backwards, forwards and side to side with an ease that most of us will only wish we ever had. Now, it is true that if you put a 300 lb. woman with the most amazing voice you've ever heard up on that stage, the tune wouldn't sell. But look at what you're selling to...pop music isn't just music, it's a lifestyle.

[PiousBionicus]

You're quite right, I agree. Je suis d'accord.

[clifton]

I'll wager everybody has a "pop soul" as far as the music we grew up with is concerned. I grew up in the late '50's, early '60s, started college in '67. And I love doo-wop music, and Fats Domino, and "Blue Moon", by the Marcels, and "Revolver", and "Whos Next", and "Anthem Of The Sun". And as I got oldet, I found I was not enjoying pop music from subsequent generations too much. There are exceptions, such as Springsteen, Radiohead, Michael Franti, to name a few, but I think it's inevitable, even natural, that you will connect with the pop music of your generation.

[Saundra Hummer]

The first CD I bought was Fats Domino. then Dinah Washington, then Louie and Ella, Fats Domino is still a favorite, and I used to get given a hard time by Frank Rosolino, Clark, Stan. and some of the other guys for liking Fats, and some of the other R&B's stars. We would all laugh about it. Especially Frank, Stan, and Clark, They couldn't believe that some jazz men with all of their talent were struggling, and Elvis was making it. Shoot me now, but I never did like his music, Heartbreak Hotel. I admit that I enjoyed that one, but after that, not a one.

They found it amazing that people that knew and played as well as they all did would not be able to sell as many records as some of the R&B's people who could barely pick out a tune on a guitar or sax. Then there were the cornball songs that sold up in stratisphere, like "How Much Is that Doggie in the Window." Teased me about maybe liking that one. Of course they probably could have, sold a lot more had they sold out completlly and gone down that road.

I do like some pop songs, and lots of other types of music as well, but I always come back to jazz and R&B's. Two of my favorites along with Classical Guitar, Flaminco (Gypsy Music), and odds and ends of this and that. I don't think I have a pop soul, like some, because other genre's interest me more, hold my interest longer. Pop is slick in it's presentation, and the videos are entertaining, cute and sexy and all that, but it just doesn't hold my attention.

[zaragemca]

well some of you forget that many times the out come of a song is related to the producers-team(this with experience of being there),the 'team'(all the majors Label have one in the house) could get a poem(which don't even has melody) and make a gold out of it,or as happenned also many times with songs and movies too, that by the time they finished you will not recognize the originals.Berry(Motown Record),was the pioneer of that concept back in the 50's

[DWBass]

Originally posted by bombastic
She can barely sing the "material". she's horrible. You won't hear too much more from her. Oh, she'll be around for a minute! Janet Jackson can't sing a lick either and look at where she is (although she does have a hand in her songwriting). Britney puts on a good show (as does Janet) and has a great live band (as does Janet), has a great body/sex appeal (as does Janet) and that's all that matters to the teeny boppers these days!

[DWBass]

Originally posted by bombastic
I don't even like looking at britney spears. she reminds me of bad music. the only thing i could watch her in is a porno movie. she looks like a barbie doll porno actress. no singing allowed!!! somethings gotta be wrong with ya then! She's great to look at! I agree she can't sing but she sure looks good!

[Quatermass]

I'm with Bombastic she's very average looking (not quite porno Barbie doll to me, but that's because i rarely look at porn), but it's all subjective. Viewers of the Box music channel (it's on at work) seem very keen on the Toxic video.

[Smudge]

I am lucky in that I don't really discriminate between styles. There is good and bad everywhere. I am not just a fan of jazz, but of funk, reggae and just about anything I can hear. It's all good. I don't like hearing computers play music though. I honestly think most of the computer pop released these days is actually dreadful. No feel, no soul.
As for Brittany's tunes being intricate? I'm sorry, no I must disagree. A good band should be able to cover one of those from scratch in about 5 minutes. Counter melodies are a basic ingredient in arranged music. .
I think that one of the main reasons people buy this music in such huge quantities is because of marketing. It is hard to avoid Eminem, Brittany etc when they are splashed across magazine covers, TV, radio and the like constantly. I watched part of a video hits type program earlier and it was like opening a fashion magazine. All the artists featured were beautiful, wearing bikinis or lingere, and dancing sexily. This is what sells the music. Not the music. One clip even had a woman lying on her back dressed in black lace underwear while babies fell from the sky and landed on her breasts! I honestly think that most people these days listen to music with their eyes.

[Mixolydian]

Originally posted by Smudge
I honestly think that most people these days listen to music with their eyes.
Pretty much. I see a lot of hip-hop (pretty much all, in fact) as image music. As someone said, it's the lifestyle, the image, the music is just like the backdrop.

If you were to take away the softcore porn on most of these image music tracks, pretty much all you would hear are badboy rappers singing about their money, cars, women, houses, then inbetween sexy girls waving their booty and hanging their cleavage, singing "I want some mooooorrrrreeeeee!"

On one especially generic (though I wont say bad) example of this, I saw all of the above in the one scene :laugh:

Maybe we should market Jazz like that... if it works for one, will it work for another. A definite beat, an easy to remember melody, and lots of attractive girls, who would sell themselves to anything. I'd buy it :D

[Tenorman]

Been done already -- check out 60s Jazz LP covers.

It is still being done. A couple of years ago I was waiting in a queue to pay for my armful of discs when the guy in front of me said to the assistant that he was looking for the CD of "that blonde jazz bird with the legs" Without so much as a smile cracking his features the guy behind the counter handed him the latest Diana Krall album.

Sex sells. Us Jazz sophisticates like to think that we are a bit more subtle about it~pimp:

[Saundra Hummer]

Maybe it is naive of me, but I don't remember a big concerted effort to market jazz. It depended on word of mouth, and the popularity of an album with the college kids to make it as a decent seller.

The music marketed itself, while pop and hip hop promoters bombard us with marketing techniques that leaves General Motors and General Mills in the dust. Great for them, great for their current best sellers, but they seem to have done some real damage to music, filling the airwaves with some godawful sounding stuff, to the point that this is all the younger people of today know, too much cookie cutter music. So much of it all sounds so much alike that it is boring in the extreme, (how many cheer leader dance moves do we have to be subjected to?) so no wonder they have to rely on glitzy videos, which I must admit, some are fun to see. Get old pretty fast though, and some are just so much the same that they are boring in the extreme, but to the young kids, they are exciting and daring, and just what they are looking for.

The albums that seemed to really sell well for their covers were Dave Brubecks album with Susie Parker in her red strapless dress, June Christi with her beautiful blond looks, and Julie Londons album which was a turn on for every red blooded male, and you would hear them talking about those three albums as being ones that turned them onto jazz, all because of the covers. Sex does sell, but we're so bombarded with it today, that they are forgetting the music.

I'm not saying that all jazz is good, as it sure isn't, and often times on the radio you have to listen to a lot that just hurts your senses before something worthwhile comes along, but it is there and it is enjoyable when you get a chance to hear it. Same with pop and hip hop I am sure, but for the most part, as far as I am concerned, there is very little that I would consider enjoyable.

The t.v. show Peter Gunn typified how the jazz scene cool permeated certain walks of life, This is how people in the jazz scene were looked upon, cool in the extreme, of course there were your jazz snobs that thought it was all about them and not the music. Still some of those around today.

[Smudge]

Originally posted by Saundra Hummer
This is how people in the jazz scene were looked upon, cool in the extreme, of course there were your jazz snobs that thought it was all about them and not the music. Still some of those around today.

He he, the Jazz Police. :D

[JazzRules]

Maybe because I grew up in the 80s and was conditioned by saccharine pop on top 40 radio..


Allright now- any other musicians feel ready to confess?



"saccharine pop" sure beats metal, grunge, or (c)rap "music" in my book.

Hey I admit it. I always be of the type that plays the "pretty notes" as a result.

The Moronette Colemans of the world aren't like to get any gigs playing on Michael Jackson recordings.......... ;)

I grew up on Santana, Allman Bros, ELP, YES, Moody Blues, 70s Jeff Beck, Brian Auger's Oblivion Express, along with Wes Montgomery, Miles, Freddie Hubbard, George Benson, Dexter Gordon. I wuz one of the first on my block to start listening to Metheny, Lee Ritenour, Larry Carlton, Mahavishnu, Brecker Bros and the like.

[edrowland]

S'funny. My band put together a rap/hiphop version of Summertime during our last rehearsal. It it was .... damn it was good.

I'm just so sick of that tune. We had played it one time too many, off a really bad chart, so I put my foot down, and said that I would *never* play that damned tune again. Never. It really is a sucky tune. For some reason, our bass player really likes it. Everytime he gets a turn to call a tune, he calls Summertime. So our sax player said: "if you want to do something different, play it as a rap tune". So we did. And it was... damn it was good! I'm still speechless. (Yes. I know we weren't the first to do that tune as a rap tune. But it was GOOD! Really). And I had no idea that our sax player could rap. He's a big white guy, about 42 years old, works days in a government job. But he can rap. Badly. It was bad rap, but it was really good jazz.

Bad music transcends all boundaries in music. It's not just limited to rap. Like it or not, Muzak was jazz. Bad jazz; but it was jazz. Jazz has a lot of making up to do for that one. Ditto for smooooth jazz, which is equally an abomination. At least you can dance to bad rap. You can't dance to bad jazz. :tongue2:

Rap. Yeah. It's a stretch. But I've actually seen some of the local jam bands in ottawa do some interesting rap/jazz hybrids (late miles davis tunes, with not only a rapper, but also a pair of turntablists). It's doable.

And hip-hop and electronica go together with jazz like roquefort and a good vintage port.

St. Germain (any CD). Either of the Verve Remixed albums. Sure it's been heaviliy sliced and diced; but it is not only jazz, but good jazz. What makes it jazz? There are actually some pretty good solos sliced up in there in places. And most of the tunes speak with the vocabulary and idiom of classic jazz. It's just that the instrumentation is a little different, and the way the improvisation is done is a little different from the way it might happen in nightclub. Although.... I did see an incredible performance in montreal a couple of years ago by a band (whose name sadly has escaped me) that was doing seriously good live electronica/jazz fusion with rap included. Personel: drummer, guitar, bass, laptop-iste, and vocals.

And, I have to tell you. Hip-hop drumming is .. I may give up swinging altogether, in favor of playing with a hip-hop beat. (Did I tell you that our hip-hop version of Summertime was bitchin'? I can't remember. But it was good).

BTW, jazz has been so well marketted that we hardly even recognize it as being marketted. Norman Granz (agent and promoter of just about every recognizable name in late 50s and 60s jazz) was the man who figured out how to market jazz. The next time you go to a jazz concert at a major auditorium instead of a dance hall or a jazz bar, you can thank Norman Granz for single-handedly inventing the genre. Of course Norman Granz was an incredibly classy guy. So all of his marketting was tasteful too.

Tony Bennet. Frank Sinatra. Ella Fitzgerald (one of Norman Granz' superstars). Dina Krall. Kenny G. Winton Marsallis. All great talents in their own way, and all marketted to hell and back. And they're all jazz musicians, whether we want them or not. (Yes, Virginia, Tony Bennet is a jazz musician. If you don't beleive me, check out who the guys in his bands are: all top-notch jazz musicians). Maybe Frankie isn't a jazz musician. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Phil Kelly]

A few random musings on pop music:

I've mentioned on other threads here that I am a big fan of 70s/80s R&B /Funk/ Soul / Quiet Storm/Modern Gospel /what-have you:

Bring on the Stuff, Tof P, EW&F, Spinners, Luther Vandross, Patti Austin, BeBe and CeCe Winans, ..all that kind of stuff!.. LUUUUUV it!

Especially the stuff with actual live rhythm players on it ..although I'll also admit a liking for some of the electroid stuff as well: Scritti Polliti, Brian Eno, Radiohead, etc ...

a couple passing comments on composing catchy pop tunes: they're not neccessarily to my taste, but after many years in the ad jingle business, I know how hard writing anything with a decent effective "hook " can be , melodically and harmonically ..it can become very easy to "out hip" yourself doing this kind of stuff ..

BTW: Some of the most intelligent lyrics of the past several years have been coming out of the singer/songwriters in Nashville, IMO ..and wheter or not you care for the style in general, those folks know how to structure pop songs as well as anyone..

I'm done rambling now ..off the soapbox! :soapbox:

Back to Wayne Shorter ...


:thewave: