Melodic Minor Triads

[El Hombre]

How would you harmonize the Melodic Minor scale in terms of triads on the guitar?

If you took D Melodic Minor as an example, would you harmonize the triads in the same fashion as you would the D Major scale?

I've always harmonized them using the same constructs I would when deriving triads from the Major Scale (using root inversion as an example):

D Melodic Minor ------------------D Major
D, F, A: D min ------------------D, F#, A: D Maj
E, G, B: E min ------------------E,G, B: E min
F, A, C#: F Aug ------------------F#, A, C#: F# min
G, B, D: G Maj ------------------G, B, D: G maj
A, C#, E: A Maj ------------------A, C#, E: A maj
B, D, F: B Dim ------------------B, D, F#: B min
C#, E, G: C# Dim ------------------C#, E, G: C# Dim

The reason I ask the question is:

(1) I don't get that melodic minor "feel" when playing the triad forms created in this fashion. I use a lot of triad forms when I play or when I solo but I tend to shy away from them when it comes to Melodic Minor phrases because I generally don't think that those forms capture the melodic minor sound.

(2) I noticed that John McLaughlin has a totally different way of harmonizing the Diminished scale that totally doesn't follow this same construct of playing the root, 3rd and 5th above each note in the Diminished scale (that scale also isn't a 7 tone scale which is part of the reason why it doesn't follow that same construct).

Is there a "better" way to harmonize the Melodic Minor scale in terms of triadic forms?

[pringe]

As a piano player I like harmonizing the melodic minor scale in drop 2 fashion. I began by learning it so that my LH (the dropped note) always played one of the chord notes (1, 3, 5, 7) with the RH playing a voicing of minMAJ9 to match. Then to harmonize any other notes in the scale I simply have to adjust the LH note to maintain the interval of a 10th and use one of the four shapes I learnt.

I've explained that really badly - sorry, will try to clean it up later but no doubt someone else will give you a much better explanation of this as it's quite a common modern sound.

[EdByrne]

How would you harmonize the (Ascending) Melodic Minor scale in terms of triads on the guitar?

If you took D Melodic Minor as an example, would you harmonize the triads in the same fashion as you would the D Major scale?

I've always harmonized them using the same constructs I would when deriving triads from the Major Scale (using root inversion as an example):

D Melodic Minor ------------------D Major
D, F, A: D min ------------------D, F#, A: D Maj
E, G, B: E min ------------------E,G, B: E min
F, A, C#: F Aug ------------------F#, A, C#: F# min
G, B, D: G Maj ------------------G, B, D: G maj
A, C#, E: A Maj ------------------A, C#, E: A maj
B, D, F: B Dim ------------------B, D, F#: B min
C#, E, G: C# Dim ------------------C#, E, G: C# Dim

The reason I ask the question is:

(1) I don't get that melodic minor "feel" when playing the triad forms created in this fashion. I use a lot of triad forms when I play or when I solo but I tend to shy away from them when it comes to Melodic Minor phrases because I generally don't think that those forms capture the melodic minor sound.

(2) I noticed that John McLaughlin has a totally different way of harmonizing the Diminished scale that totally doesn't follow this same construct of playing the root, 3rd and 5th above each note in the Diminished scale (that scale also isn't a 7 tone scale which is part of the reason why it doesn't follow that same construct).

Is there a "better" way to harmonize the Melodic Minor scale in terms of triadic forms?


Hey El,

You have correctly identified the successive triads diatonic to the Melodic Minor scale. Perhaps you are put off by the fact that this scale produces two Diminished and one augmented triad (as opposed to the one resolving Diminished triad in the Major), with four out of seven chords not containing perfect fifths. These will tend to "jump" at you. Also, I presume you are plane-ing them, which is different from using them in a tonal progression, perhaps even mixed with non-diatonic chords.

With regard to the plane-ing, you could always reharmonize each successive scale member as a root, 3rd, or 5th of a (any) major or minor triad (below the lead).

Best,
Ed

[bwv1005]

(1) I don't get that melodic minor "feel" when playing the triad forms created in this fashion. I use a lot of triad forms when I play or when I solo but I tend to shy away from them when it comes to Melodic Minor phrases because I generally don't think that those forms capture the melodic minor sound.

triadic forms?


The reason you don't get the "feel" may have to do with the distribution of triads in melodic minor, which makes it more ambiguous than the major scale. It has two major, two minor, two diminished, and one augmented triad. That means that six of the seven triads you play (all except the augmented) fail to provide enough context to define the scale when played in isolation. However, anything containing the augmented triad will immediately define the sound of that particular scale, because the augmented triad can only belong to one scale. This depends on what the harmony is, and what you wish to convey, of course...
for example, the song called "volcano" on this page is built entirely on A melodic minor, with E in the bass.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=46181188

mo

[El Hombre]

Also, I presume you are plane-ing them, which is different from using them in a tonal progression, perhaps even mixed with non-diatonic chords.

With regard to the plane-ing, you could always reharmonize each successive scale member as a root, 3rd, or 5th of a (any) major or minor triad (below the lead).

Best,
Ed

When you say 'plane-ing' do you mean playing all notes in the form at once as opposed to playing the notes individually? If that is what you mean then 'yes' this is how I'm playing them.

Could you explain in more detail how you would go about reharmonizing as you describe above? Are you talking about reharmonizing from using root inversions (root in base, 3rd, 5th on top) to 1st or 2nd inversions (e.g., 1st inversion being 3rd in base, 5th, and root on top; 2nd inversion being 5th in base, Root, and 3rd on top)

[EdByrne]

When you say 'plane-ing' do you mean playing all notes in the form at once as opposed to playing the notes individually? If that is what you mean then 'yes' this is how I'm playing them.

Could you explain in more detail how you would go about reharmonizing as you describe above? Are you talking about reharmonizing from using root inversions (root in base, 3rd, 5th on top) to 1st or 2nd inversions (e.g., 1st inversion being 3rd in base, 5th, and root on top; 2nd inversion being 5th in base, Root, and 3rd on top)
What I meant was, are you starting by playing the i (triad), then ii, then bIII+, etc? Planeing is when you run a harmony up or down in similar or parallel motion.

What I am saying is if you don't need the phrase to be diatonic to the melodic minor, you could play the Melodic minor scale as the lead notes, 3rds or (P)5ths harmonized by major or minor chords to avoid the + and o triads.

For example: D (lead)/Dm; E/Em; F/F; G/G; A/A; B/Bm; C#/C#m; D/Dm// This could be done by starting over and making the D lead the chordal 3rd, and the 3rd time make it the 5th.

This would supply a Melodic minor lead line without the + & o triads.

Of course many other possibilities are available when you put this into a progression (which the above is not) peppered with other functional non-diatonic chords.

[gennation]

There's a couple of basic movements or patterns you can use to get you started. Once you get a grasp on them they are useful but also good to help you build more into them.

Here's a chordal idea out of the Ab Jazz Minor over the G7...


Dm7 Dm9 G7 Cmaj7

E----------|------------4--|--3--|-----|
B---6---5--|---4--8--6--4--|--5--|-----|
G---5---5--|---4--8--6--4--|--4--|-----|
D---3---3--|---5--8--6--3--|--5--|-----|
A---5---5--|---------------|-----|-----|
E----------|---------------|-----|-----|

1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1


After you learn some three string chord grips on different sets of three strings you can start spliting things up a bit to include notes from different sets of grips at once. Kind of helps open up the voicings a little more.

[gennation]

How would you harmonize the Melodic Minor scale in terms of triads on the guitar?

If you took D Melodic Minor as an example, would you harmonize the triads in the same fashion as you would the D Major scale?

I've always harmonized them using the same constructs I would when deriving triads from the Major Scale (using root inversion as an example):

D Melodic Minor ------------------D Major
D, F, A: D min ------------------D, F#, A: D Maj
E, G, B: E min ------------------E,G, B: E min
F, A, C#: F Aug ------------------F#, A, C#: F# min
G, B, D: G Maj ------------------G, B, D: G maj
A, C#, E: A Maj ------------------A, C#, E: A maj
B, D, F: B Dim ------------------B, D, F#: B min
C#, E, G: C# Dim ------------------C#, E, G: C# Dim

The reason I ask the question is:

(1) I don't get that melodic minor "feel" when playing the triad forms created in this fashion. I use a lot of triad forms when I play or when I solo but I tend to shy away from them when it comes to Melodic Minor phrases because I generally don't think that those forms capture the melodic minor sound.

(2) I noticed that John McLaughlin has a totally different way of harmonizing the Diminished scale that totally doesn't follow this same construct of playing the root, 3rd and 5th above each note in the Diminished scale (that scale also isn't a 7 tone scale which is part of the reason why it doesn't follow that same construct).

Is there a "better" way to harmonize the Melodic Minor scale in terms of triadic forms?


Yes, you can use the same chord building/harmonizing/diatonic style harmony with the Jazz Minor that you can do with the Major scale...primarily because it also has 7 notes...so everyother note is in the range of a R, some type of 3rd, some type of 5th, and some type of 7th, etc...

But I think the Jazz Minor scale come alive more when you don't look at things as closed traids or closed scale patterns. It really comes alive when you just ramdomly grab notes. A good way to pratice this, and get out of your normal habits, is you play notes that are a couple of strings apart form each other. It'll definitely make it sound less "scaley", and more "out".

Regardless of how Mclaughlin does it, the Melodic Minor scale and the Diminished scales are two different things. A good way to see how he looka at the Diminished scale is to just LOOK at the pattern...



E|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|
G|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|
D|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|
A|-----|-----|-----|-----|
E|-----|-----|-----|-----|

Look at the patterns...

Major triad...

E|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
G|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
A|-----|-----|-----|-----|
E|-----|-----|-----|-----|

Another Major triad...

E|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
G|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|-----|-----|--o--|-----|
A|-----|-----|-----|-----|
E|-----|-----|-----|-----|

Those two patterns played back to back, then moved up three fret and played again are pretty much the moves Mclaughlin does in Phenomenon: Compulsion off the Electric Guitarist album as well as him revisiting it again on his latest album Industrial Zen, on track 6, Song for Dali Lama.

You can also see these patterns too...

a Minor triad...

E|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B|-----|-----|--o--|-----|
G|-----|-----|-----|--o--|
D|-----|-----|-----|--o--|
A|-----|-----|-----|-----|
E|-----|-----|-----|-----|

A 7th triad...

E|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
G|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
A|-----|-----|-----|-----|

Similar to a dom13 chord...

E|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B|-----|-----|--o--|-----|
G|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
A|-----|-----|-----|-----|

Similar to a maj7 voicing or a dom9 voicing...

E|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B|-----|-----|--o--|-----|
G|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|-----|-----|--o--|-----|
A|-----|-----|-----|-----|
E|-----|-----|-----|-----|

Here's a dom7 voicing...

E|-----|-----|-----|-----|
B|-----|-----|-----|--o--|
G|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|-----|-----|-----|--o--|
A|-----|-----|-----|-----|
E|-----|-----|-----|-----|



There's a lot of John in those patterns. Once you realize them over Dominant chords, or just straight Diminished chords, a whole other level of use opens up.

Have fun!

[El Hombre]

What I meant was, are you starting by playing the i (triad), then ii, then bIII+, etc? Planeing is when you run a harmony up or down in similar or parallel motion.

What I'm doing fits your definition of planeing.


What I am saying is if you don't need the phrase to be diatonic to the melodic minor, you could play the Melodic minor scale as the lead notes, 3rds or (P)5ths harmonized by major or minor chords to avoid the + and o triads.

For example: D (lead)/Dm; E/Em; F/F; G/G; A/A; B/Bm; C#/C#m; D/Dm// This could be done by starting over and making the D lead the chordal 3rd, and the 3rd time make it the 5th.

This would supply a Melodic minor lead line without the + & o triads..


Actually, I like the augmented and diminished triad sounds. Those triadic forms are more true to the melodic minor scale sound than the major and minor forms when you run a phrase that is diatonic to the melodic minor scale.

I guess my beef with the melodic minor triads is that if you play them in succession, a portion of that run doesn't sound indicative of the melodic minor scale. Using the D melodic minor example, I think it is because the Em, GMaj, and AMaj really don't capture their true melodic minor qualities of those chords without their chord extensions.

I brought up the John McLaughlin Diminished scale harmony example just because it seemed to be such a radical departure from the (Root, 3rd, 5th) construction. I guess I should have posted the example. Here it is:

John McLaughlin on one of his instructional videos harmonizes a Whole Diminished scale like this (I'll use D whole diminished as an example):

(D,E,Bb), (E,F,B), (F,G,Db), (G,Ab,D), (Ab,Bb,E), (Bb,B,F), (B,Db,G), (Db,D,Ab)

Granted, I wouldn't characterize these as "triads" since they aren't triads but these forms when played on the guitar really function similar to the Major scale triadic forms.

This construct also works in large part because the whole diminished scale is an 8-tone, not 7-tone scale. Those harmonizations just flat out nail the whole diminished sound when you use them in a line. I guess I was wondering if there was some non-conventional construct that also provided a better 3 tone harmonization for the melodic minor scale.

Thanks for all of your input so far.

[EdByrne]

What I'm doing fits your definition of planeing.





Actually, I like the augmented and diminished triad sounds. Those triadic forms are more true to the melodic minor scale sound than the major and minor forms when you run a phrase that is diatonic to the melodic minor scale.

I guess my beef with the melodic minor triads is that if you play them in succession, a portion of that run doesn't sound indicative of the melodic minor scale. Using the D melodic minor example, I think it is because the Em, GMaj, and AMaj really don't capture their true melodic minor qualities of those chords without their chord extensions.

I brought up the John McLaughlin Diminished scale harmony example just because it seemed to be such a radical departure from the (Root, 3rd, 5th) construction. I guess I should have posted the example. Here it is:

John McLaughlin on one of his instructional videos harmonizes a Whole Diminished scale like this (I'll use D whole diminished as an example):

(D,E,Bb), (E,F,B), (F,G,Db), (G,Ab,D), (Ab,Bb,E), (Bb,B,F), (B,Db,G), (Db,D,Ab)

Granted, I wouldn't characterize these as "triads" since they aren't triads but these forms when played on the guitar really function similar to the Major scale triadic forms.

This construct also works in large part because the whole diminished scale is an 8-tone, not 7-tone scale. Those harmonizations just flat out nail the whole diminished sound when you use them in a line. I guess I was wondering if there was some non-conventional construct that also provided a better 3 tone harmonization for the melodic minor scale.

Thanks for all of your input so far.

El,

It was difficult to get your meaning from your initial description. They are indeed not triads but trichords (3-note pitch collections) in the form of harmony (since they sound 3 notes at a time). Since you like the example above, why not adapt it to the D Melodic minor (whole or half step between the bottom two voices, P4 or +4 between the top two voices--all diatonic to the D Melodic minor)?

D, E, A; E, F, B; F, G, C#; G, A, D; A, B, F; B, C#, G; C#, D, A; D, E, A

Ed

[El Hombre]

Ed,

I'm at work right now but when I go home, I'm going to play around with the trichords you have listed. Thanks for your input. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I couldn't think of how to create something similar with the Melodic Minor. I think I got hung up on the fact that the Diminished scale example involves an 8 tone scale and for some reason I wasn't making the same connection with the Melodic Minor. Anyhow, thanks again.

[EdByrne]

Ed,

I'm at work right now but when I go home, I'm going to play around with the trichords you have listed. Thanks for your input. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I couldn't think of how to create something similar with the Melodic Minor. I think I got hung up on the fact that the Diminished scale example involves an 8 tone scale and for some reason I wasn't making the same connection with the Melodic Minor. Anyhow, thanks again.

You may find that it is what you're looking for, since it (each voicing) has the same basic interval structure: 1 or 1/2 step; 4th (P or +), only it's diatonic to D Melodic minor rather than the diminished. Good luck. Let me know how it works.

[El Hombre]

You may find that it is what you're looking for, since it (each voicing) has the same basic interval structure: 1 or 1/2 step; 4th (P or +), only it's diatonic to D Melodic minor rather than the diminished. Good luck. Let me know how it works.

The voicings sound more reminiscent to quartal harmonies than they do the melodic minor. They are nice voicings and I see your point about not necessarily using the triads to harmonize the melodic minor scale. I started using quartal voicings quite a bit and I'll probably incorporate some of these voicings with them.

[MattPhish]

great discussion guys

I like it...I forgot about this place