MP3's

[ken51]

Anyone out there willing to swap any Mosaic Records MP3's please let me know.

[jazzypaul]

Adam...that's a loaded response. If they're out of print, it's cool, because, well, if the record companies don't want to make any money off of some music, then it's better to get it for free than to not get it at all. However, if this guy wants to nab stuff from sets that can easily be obtained with a phone call and a credit card, then he's a garden variety thief.

[Coypu]

Well, I say that you should buy the albums of your favorite artists and download the rest. If I wasn't going to buy them anyway then there is no loss. You need a fortune to buy thousands of albums anyway so if the remain with high prices they really ask for people to download more.

[jomina]

If you want to hear what is going on in the music, the dynamics timbre etc. then MP3 is absolutely not the way to go, it's pretty awful...

[jazzypaul]

Coypu's train of thought on this is scary. When it comes to pop music, it's one thing. We can only hope that the record companies hemmorage enough money on Britney Spears records and the like to reorganize the way that they do business. I hope that they realize that if they're going to allow CD's to retail for $20, that they are going to lose money. And they should! This is ridiculous, and frankly, it makes buying new music cost prohibitive.

HOWEVER!!!!

Britney Spears can afford to have an album only go double platinum because she's doing endorsements for this company, making movies for this other company, and she's able to hock calendars and posters to 35 year old single men, and she's not about to go broke. On the other hand, when you download that Kurt Rosenwinkel side, you're stealing money directly from his wallet and food directly from his plate. He's not in a position to be a poster boy, he's not making royalties off of his videos being played on MTV and he's not endorsing Pepsi. These guys are surviving, not jet-setting, and so the idea that it's okay to steal their music is the exact same idea that it's okay to go to a store and shoplift. The ends are roughly the same. Coypu, I think I should be able to go over to your house in Sweden and "share" everything that I want. So when can I come over? Or is it only fair to steal from musicians...that is...stealing from your own?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Coypu's train of thought on this is scary. When it comes to pop music, it's one thing. We can only hope that the record companies hemmorage enough money on Britney Spears records and the like to reorganize the way that they do business. I hope that they realize that if they're going to allow CD's to retail for $20, that they are going to lose money. And they should! This is ridiculous, and frankly, it makes buying new music cost prohibitive.

HOWEVER!!!!

Britney Spears can afford to have an album only go double platinum because she's doing endorsements for this company, making movies for this other company, and she's able to hock calendars and posters to 35 year old single men, and she's not about to go broke. On the other hand, when you download that Kurt Rosenwinkel side, you're stealing money directly from his wallet and food directly from his plate. He's not in a position to be a poster boy, he's not making royalties off of his videos being played on MTV and he's not endorsing Pepsi. These guys are surviving, not jet-setting, and so the idea that it's okay to steal their music is the exact same idea that it's okay to go to a store and shoplift. The ends are roughly the same. Coypu, I think I should be able to go over to your house in Sweden and "share" everything that I want. So when can I come over? Or is it only fair to steal from musicians...that is...stealing from your own?

I wasn't going to buy his album anyway nomatter what so if I copy some mp3s there is no loss for anyone, only gain for me.

He should get a job if its so horrible for him, Immolation all have fulltime jobs and they manages to put out some of the best music of all time by practicing hard on their sparetime and financing their music and touring by hard work. I support them by buying their albums since they truly deserv it. Some jazz guy I hardly know about is not going to get any cash from me until I really know that i like his work, I want to try first and once I have found out who my favorites are I buy their stuff.

If I had the cash I would buy everything original but I don't.

And if I could make unlimited amount of copys of my stuff for free then surely I would share everything with the world, I would even give you my death metal collection for free.

to conclude : Spend your hard earned cash on thoose who deserve it the most.

[jazzypaul]

to conclude : Spend your hard earned cash on thoose who deserve it the most.

Yeah, and Kurt deserves it more than any death metal band ever will.

Some jazz guy I hardly know about is not going to get any cash from me

Spoken like a true jazz fan. Crazy, I thought this was a jazz thread, where people are WILLING to spend their money on jazz guys.

Crazy...

[GA Russell]

I've never downloaded an mp3, but when I was in college more than thirty years ago I swapped cassette copies of records with friends.

Here are the scenarios as I see them:


1) I'm sorry that I failed to purchase the Mosaic Thad Jones/Mel Lewis box. Very little of that box is available today on CD.

Is it stealing for me to obtain a copy of what I cannot buy?


2) Coypu has only two radio stations in Sweden. One plays only Kenny G, The Carpenters and Abba. The other plays only death metal. Coypu comes to the conclusion that he is a death metal fan, but he might be interested in hearing more jazz. Coypu reads on the internet that there are a number of starving jazz artists who are pretty good, including Kurt Rosenwinkel. Coypu budgets $20 per month to buying jazz CDs, and he has already spent this month's budget on Mose Allison and Mark Murphy.

Is it stealing for Coypu to obtain a copy of something he has no intention to buy in order to hear something by the artist?


What say you, members of the jury?

[jazzypaul]

GA: I've come out and said before that it's not stealing to download something that the record companies don't want to make money off of. In the case of say, the Sam Rivers Mosaic box (which just went out of print), I'm sure that Sam, you and I are really only hoping at this point to have that music be heard. So, let's make sure it gets heard. And if Blue Note realizes that there is an opportunity to make money, they may just put it back in print. We can only hope. But, yeah, in the meantime, you gotta do what you gotta do. But that's a far different situation than burning the music of a living artist whose work is in print. That guy worked in the studio, worked on the bandstand and worked -- that's right -- WORKED. And to take the fruits of that work without paying for it...that's stealing.

As for the idea of downloading to try something...maybe. But if you like it and download the rest of the album instead of buying it, then you're an asshole.

[Coypu]

Ok, you still haven't understood anything but ok here is an example:

Kid can only afford to buy 5 albums per year. He spends his cash on 5 artists he like. Now he can either just listen to the 5 records or download more music. He chooses to download mp3's so that he can enjoy more music.

SO

Do you want the poor kid to only listen to 5 albums for a whole year?

[jazzypaul]

If a kid can only afford 5 CD's in a year, he is in either (1) major debt or (2) working for pennies. 5 CD's is $100, cheaper if you can go to a mom and pop store where they sell CD's for significantly less than Tower, Sam Goody or Borders. Not to mention the internet (which you obviously use) makes things even cheaper. If that kid really is in a situation where they only have $100 per year for entertainment, they really should go out and get another job instead of sitting on the internet all day. And no matter what, as a musician, that kid has a duty to all of the people that may ever hear him to be as well rounded as possible. Something that is not happening if all they hear is that Thelonious Monk is smooth. Because at that point, they're not listening to the music. But then again Coypu, you don't listen to anything. People tell you to leave, you stay. People tell you to listen to jazz, you put it on in the background. People ask you not to knock slavery, you knock it even more. It's the story of your life Coypu. You're completely amoral. Which makes sense. Someone who has no sense of morals couldn't possibly see what's wrong with stealing.

[Coypu]

$20.000 is what I would have to spend if I bought all the music I have. I don't have that cash, sad as it is. I study, I work hard to afford it so buying music for $20.000 is not something I can afford.

So downloading music is the only choice left.

You shouldn't preach moral since you kill animals for pleasure.

[3pointdeli]

i refuse to pay more than $13 for a cd (there are some, but very few, exceptions). $15+ is too much for anyone to pay, especially since the artists only gets a tiny fraction.

also,

most people are, in fact, in serious debt. it's also a pretty crappy time to be looking for a better job.

and,

coypu is talking about kids, not adults with jobs. kids earn money by mowing lawns and washing cars. or they get allowances. either way, that isn't enough money to buy a bunch of cds and maintain any kind of decent social life (which IS more important than getting screwed in the *** by the record industry.)

make cds $10 and the problem is solved. if the record companies don't want to consider this then they're going to (already, actually) have serious problems.

[jazzypaul]

Yep, I kill animals for pleasure. More importantly, I kill animals so that I can eat, survive and live a happy life. What's worse, the guy that does what comes naturally as an omnivore, or the guy who cheerleads a man who murders other humans and burns down churches, therefore crippling segments of society?

Talk all you want about how I kill animals for pleasure, I, for one, have no choice in the matter. So, I kill animals. Oh well. If you only have a set amount of money to spend on music, then spend that music wisely. Step out of your boundaries. Once again, I have the Messhugah disc. Where's your Lee Morgan CD? You want us to devour death metal, but you won't support jazz? That's hypocritical. That's thievery. And as a musician, that's heresy. But, from what I can gather, that's Coypu.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Yep, I kill animals for pleasure. More importantly, I kill animals so that I can eat, survive and live a happy life. What's worse, the guy that does what comes naturally as an omnivore, or the guy who cheerleads a man who murders other humans and burns down churches, therefore crippling segments of society?

Talk all you want about how I kill animals for pleasure, I, for one, have no choice in the matter. So, I kill animals. Oh well. If you only have a set amount of money to spend on music, then spend that music wisely. Step out of your boundaries. Once again, I have the Messhugah disc. Where's your Lee Morgan CD? You want us to devour death metal, but you won't support jazz? That's hypocritical. That's thievery. And as a musician, that's heresy. But, from what I can gather, that's Coypu.

You could live a normal life not killing animals so you have no excuse.

Killing people lies in the human nature, it has happened before and it will happen again. Killing animals of any kind is bad so you are throwing rocks in a glass house.

Burning churches isn't that bad, christianity is dead here in scandinavia so its no loss.

I own Mahavishnu records and Fredrik Thordendal so I do my part for jazz/fusion.

[jazzypaul]

1) As mentioned before, I have enough food allergies to basically not be able to lead a normal life. It sucks, and yeah, I tried being a vegetarian, and it left me so tired and drained that it was not worth it.

2) It's okay to kill humans out of rage and not okay to kill animals for food, clothing and survival? Wow, coypu, what color is the sky in your world, anyway?

3) As long as one person went to that church, it was most certainly NOT okay to burn it down.

4) Fusion is a sub-genre of music that may or may not be jazz. Especially Mahavishnu, and the music that you've put up that is supposedly fusion. Where is the jazz element in it? Just because it's instrumental, it's jazz? No, it's not. So, once again, where's the Lee Morgan CD? Because I have the Dillinger Escape Plan's first 3 CD's. I've done my part. You're too close-minded to do yours.

[Coypu]

1. tough luck, go to a dietist, they can probably help you

2. no both are wrong

3. well maybe they got a life instead when the church burned down, who knows.

4. well dillinger escape plan is as much DM as Mahavishnu is jazz, both are great bands though.

[jazzypaul]

Glad to see you are so tolerant of others' beliefs. The same way you are about others music. I hope comments like those bring pride upon your family name, because they certainly do nothing flattering for you.

[GA Russell]

Guys, please take the personal analyses to the Glory of Death Jazz thread.

Paul, whatever the morality of downloading mp3s is, it does seem to me that the type of music has no relevance.

There's a link to yesterday's Los Angeles Times, in which Janis Ian discusses downloading mp3s. I can't find it now, but I'll try again later.

It does seem to me that if one is going to download a defunct Mosaic box, one ought to at the same timepurchase a current one!

[jazzypaul]

I don't think it's a question of genre, although I would like to see a good chunk of pop musicians go broke and have to sell their instruments. I do think, however, that if a record company either (1) refuses to keep something in print or (2) refuses to get decent distribution (yes, owner of Criss-Cross, I am speaking to you), then the stuff should be available SOMEHOW. I would much rather see the entire Atlantic, Blue Note and Chess catalogs in print, and at some point, maybe they will be. But for now, they're not, and if someone wants to hear Animation by Tim Hagans, they should be able to.

[GA Russell]

Here's the Janis Ian column. Interesting stuff!

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/suncommentary/la-oe-ian2feb02,0,2630989.story?coll=la%2Dheadlines%2Dsu ncomment

[3pointdeli]

thanks for that link, ga. unfortunately you have to register before you can read it. i haven't read it, but my understanding is that janis ian is very pro-music on the internet. she says her sales went UP 300% once she made her music available on the web.

[ma³goœka]

For the first time I agree with Coypu. I buy my favourite artist's cds and the whole rest I have to download (I'm listening to mp3 at the moment). You can call it stealing, everything is simplier for those living in USA. But I live in western Europe and there are no other sources of jazz music. Even if I could afford for more cds (I can't and jazzypaul, I won't get another job becouse there is no other job here), jazz is so unpopular in Poland that it's hardly possible to buy any good cd. You can say that I'm overstating and complaining about everything, but the truth is that mp3s are for many people the only way to listen jazz.

sorry for mistakes - I don't speak english very well

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by ma³goœka
For the first time I agree with Coypu. I buy my favourite artist's cds and the whole rest I have to download (I'm listening to mp3 at the moment). You can call it stealing, everything is simplier for those living in USA. But I live in western Europe and there are no other sources of jazz music. Even if I could afford for more cds (I can't and jazzypaul, I won't get another job becouse there is no other job here), jazz is so unpopular in Poland that it's hardly possible to buy any good cd. You can say that I'm overstating and complaining about everything, but the truth is that mp3s are for many people the only way to listen jazz.

sorry for mistakes - I don't speak english very well

I don't agree.

I live in Western Europe and must admit that's quite easy to buy most jazz cd's. If you can't buy them in your local cd-shop, you can't buy them at the internet on for instance www.amazon.com

Maybe you should take a lood at the site of the 'Polish Jazz Network'.
http://www.polishjazz.com/

[lilolee]

The thing is that what do you do if a record/cd is out of print? I've spent ages trying to track down certain cd's, when they have parts appeared on kazaa etc. I'm not going to ignore them, I'm going to download them. I'm not a fan of MP3 soundwise, but at least I can listen to it.

I don't feel I'm robbing the artist, as far as I'm concerned the label should keep it active so I can buy it. The day that all labels allow you to buy over the net is the day I long for.

[3pointdeli]

if something is out of print and you find it on the net you should take it. don't apologize to anyone and don't regret it. it sucks to be an artists whose work is out of print, but maybe if an out of print album gets a lot of hits on the internet the artist can bring that to the attention of the label and get it back on the shelves.

if something is out of print, downloading it is the best thing you can possibly do.

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
if something is out of print and you find it on the net you should take it. don't apologize to anyone and don't regret it. it sucks to be an artists whose work is out of print, but maybe if an out of print album gets a lot of hits on the internet the artist can bring that to the attention of the label and get it back on the shelves.

if something is out of print, downloading it is the best thing you can possibly do.

I agree on that.

[DWBass]

I prefer to have the real thing but if something is out of print and no plans for it to be back in print, I'm downloading it if it is available. I don't see anything wrong or unethical with this scenario. This is why artists need to keep their publishing rights. This way, they keep the masters and can print up copies when the need arises and they continue earning throughout their lifetime!! I'm an artist with no grand dilusions of ever becoming rich through my music and would prefer someone to download it then for it never to be heard.

[jazzypaul]

I dunno, man. I have issues with the whole thing. Part of me says that I'd rather have my music heard for free than not at all. Another part, however, says that it's still stealing, no matter how broke you are. I dunno. The kindhearted musician in me wants to say do what you gotta do, it's no worse than taping it from the library (and it's not -- they're both essentially wrong), but the money hungry guy in me that manages my band would want to crush your computer into tiny little bits for stealing from me. I guess the best way to put it is this: If you're going to steal the music, you better damn well be worth it. The Andrei Matorin CD better be the best CD of the year when it comes out... ;)

[jazzypaul]

Jazz violinist? You know of the incredible, talented, literate and funny as hell, Johnny Frigo?

[andreimatorin]

i guess i'm embarrassed to say i don't know about him...

[3pointdeli]

adam, it surprisesd me to hear you, a proud republican and fan of bill o'reilly, making pro-library comments and pretending not to know why companies want to hold on to copywrights.

are you sure you're republican?

[3pointdeli]

sorry for all my typos today. my messages are probably hard to read. i'll try harder.

[andreimatorin]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
sorry for all my typos today. my messages are probably hard to read. i'll try harder.

that's why u can edit posts ;)

[jazzypaul]

Andrei, don't be embarrased to not know Johnny Frigo. But do know for sure that your education is not complete without him.

[ma³goœka]

sorry, I meant that I live in EASTERN Europe, I said I don't speak English well and still do silly mistakes :( There's a little differene between Poland and Belgium and the fact that there are some goods polish jazz pages doesn't mean that everything is ok. Believe me, it isn't easy to listen jazz for everyone. That's why MP3s are so good idea

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by ma³goœka
sorry, I meant that I live in EASTERN Europe, I said I don't speak English well and still do silly mistakes :( There's a little differene between Poland and Belgium and the fact that there are some goods polish jazz pages doesn't mean that everything is ok. Believe me, it isn't easy to listen jazz for everyone. That's why MP3s are so good idea

You don't have to apologize for your English. English ain't my mother tongue too. I hope that most people on this forum don't get annoyed too much by 'bad' english.
I agree that there's a difference between Eastern and Western Europe and I understand that a lot of people in Poland don't earn a lot of money, but I would be surprised if people in Poland can't order cd's from the internet.

I can understand that people who can't afford cd's, listen to MP3. But some people on this forum claim that they dowload more then 10 albums a day.

[3pointdeli]

cds aren't worth their purchase price. drop the prices. that's the only answer.

i mean that in all seriousness.

[jazzypaul]

truest statement I've read all day.

[andreimatorin]

what percentage do the jazz artists usually get from cd sales? how much goes to the record company and how much goes to the artist?

[DWBass]

My things is...................If something is not available to buy or be bought and it is available for sharing on the internet, should I just choose not to have it?? I don't think so! I always buy jazz cd's as they are rare and in low resources on the internet anyway. Pretty much all the Pop stuff inundates the internet, in my experience. Don't get me wrong, I don't sit at my computer downloading all day long but I will grab an occasional tune here and there for learning purposes for whatever band I'm in.

[3pointdeli]

i bet jazz artists get the same percentage as (or less than) pop artists. most pop artists probably get around $2 per cd. that leaves approx. $10 to the label once the retailer takes their cut, which is probably $3-$4.

sorry i don't know for sure, but i've seen these numbers thrown around and they seem disgracefully believeable to me.

i'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has first hand knowledge or experience in this area and actually knows the numbers.

[DWBass]

Depending on the size of the advance or the amount of money dished out for advertising and studio time, I think it's way less than that per (espescially for a first album deal).

[3pointdeli]

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/0203/07special_ian.html

this is the link to an editorial by janis ian, a singer/songwriter. concerning music on the internet. it was posted here previously (at a different website address) but i was unable to access it. if anyone else was interested in reading it, but wasn't able to, here it is again.

[lazy bird]

How expensive are jazz cd's where you live?

cd-price in Belgium:

midprice cd: 10 - 12 euro
other cd's: 18 - 20 euro

some prices from www.proxis.be (Belgian internet shop)

Miles Davis / Kind of blue / Columbia / 10.36 euro
Horace Silver / Blowin' the blues away / Blue note / 11.86 euro
Wayne Shorter / Footprints live / Verve / 20.24 euro
Keith Jarrett / Köln concert / ECM / 20.24 euro

[GA Russell]

Jazzypaul,

I wanted to let you know that I am not familiar with Kurt Rosenwinkle's work; but the BMG Record Club is selling his The Next Step album for $2.99 (plus $2.79 shipping), so on the strength of your recommendation I ordered it.

If you're wrong, I'm out $5.78!!! LOL

[jazzypaul]

If you're disappointed, I'll buy it off of you for $6.00, a profit for you of $0.22. And then I'll have one for the house and one for the car. Thing is, there's no way you'll be disappointed. One of the more brilliant jazz albums of the last 10 years, easily.