Super-Fast Bop

[Slant]

Does anyone know of any classic bop recordings (say 40's through 60's) that are on par with the speed of the Clifford Brown and Max Roach stuff? I'm really interested in how they came to be as fast as they were, and were able to keep up the stanima (350 and up on some tunes!!). I'd like to compare and analyize with other super-fast tracks if anyone knows of any.

Thanks!

[EdByrne]

Does anyone know of any classic bop recordings (say 40's through 60's) that are on par with the speed of the Clifford Brown and Max Roach stuff? I'm really interested in how they came to be as fast as they were, and were able to keep up the stanima (350 and up on some tunes!!). I'd like to compare and analyize with other super-fast tracks if anyone knows of any.

Thanks!

I'll let others answer your question regarding recordings, but allow me to offer this:

Playing at Up Tempos

Learning to play at fast tempos mostly has to do with doing so regularly and getting used to it. Most important, though, is your knowing through doing it the kinds of ideas and phrases that work at up tempos (with a metronome). It is also necessary to devise strategies in order to be effective, such as withholding your forces by playing fewer notes--and placing them at first more on the beat, and then gradually building towards a climax. If I came out with eighth-note lines right away on the trombone in such situations, for example, I'd have nowhere to go.

This is one reason that I practice everything at many different tempos, since a given idea will not work as well at different tempos, and therefore many ideas will need to either be re-worked or replaced in order for those phrases and rhythms to be effective at fast tempos.

An even more direct way than the arpeggios, et al, perhaps, is to just doggedly run repeated choruses of lines on a specific tune; and then periodically move the metronome up one notch at a time. This may seem tedious and redundant, but much of the learning process is in learning your own licks, since the faster the tempo, the more you have to connect entire phrases each to the next, rather than thinking from note to note. Moreover, I find that once I've done this kind of thing thoroughly to one tune, the skills gained in this manner carry over into the next tune.

I've been working on 16th note lines on a specific tune of mine that I already knew well, since I've created some vocabulary that is new to me in this context. I've been singing and playing eight different related lines on this tune for several months now--in the manner in which I describe above. It takes patience, but I know from my own prior experience that this process will pay off for me in this circumstance, as it always has in the past, since it will be easier to apply this vocabulary to the next tune.

Success at fast tempo playing often comes from pacing: knowing how to withhold your forces, gradually building towards a climax. I often begin by playing around the melody in sustained notes placed mostly on the beat. Density, activity and volume, and rhythmic complexity will generally increase as I build towards a climax about 2/3s of the way through.

[Jakeweiser]

Some of that Freddie Hubbard/Woody Shaw stuff is unrelentingly burning

[EdByrne]

Coltrane's "Countdown"

[Jakeweiser]

I'd also state that (while this isn't an sort of shock to anyone really) that the tempo of Brown and Roch wasn't nearly as important of the Intensity that they played those tempos at.

I think that is the charm of Clifford is that he feared no tempo, and he utilized what ever tempo they played to show the intensity of his jazz feel.

Once you get up to those up tempo things, anything past 280 (which is where the swing feel straightens out almost even) it is the conviction and drive/forward motion that makes it work. Thus I think 300 and 350 are the same to me... if played with passion and intensity :D

Just my view

[Egbert Souse]

1. Everything that Ed said.

2. Read about Clifford, be how he was and do what he did.

Good luck and i feel your challenge...i'm the lamest at tempos.

[Egbert Souse]

I'd also state that (while this isn't an sort of shock to anyone really) that the tempo of Brown and Roch wasn't nearly as important of the Intensity that they played those tempos at.

I think that is the charm of Clifford is that he feared no tempo, and he utilized what ever tempo they played to show the intensity of his jazz feel.



3. What Jake said...don't forget it's supposed to be music and expression and all that.

[jazzbluescat]

Parker and Gillespie did Salt Peanuts at an ungodly speed occasionally.

[Marcello]

http://www.dustygroove.com/images/products/m/mcpher_char_quintetli_101b.jpg

[Tenorman]

Tubby Hayes -- check out the enormous thread on this BB

Also a very recent release by one of the correspondents on this Board --

Introducing Simon Spillett -- This is a 2007 recording done very much in the style of the 50s and 60s Bop -- Ask Simon -- If any one knows - he does

[BolivarBaLues]

I played some really fast tempos in a sort of punkish/hard rock novelty act I played in years ago. I was in my early 20s then; I marvel at the stamina and wonder if I could pull it off these days. One of the most important things I've learned about playing fast is to resist the urge to tense up. Relax. It's so much easier to execute fast lines cleanly if your wrist is relaxed (I'm a guitarist) and you're not gritting your teeth and clenching every muscle in your body.

I find really slow tempos just as difficult to pull of.

[Phourtay]

they were able to play that fast cause they took it really slow at first. i know my response sounds alittle formulaic in design, but really that's how they did it. if you take the lines and phrases and slow them down until they are very comfortable for you and you can practically play them without thinking too much about them or the fingering, positions, or whatever you need to do to make it come out, speed up your metronome just a couple of clicks at a time until you get it down. mind you, it takes awhile to really achieve the "burning" status. it's alot of work on it, then forget it, then revisit, then forget, then you'll get there. it's a process i've been working on for a little under a year; i take all my be-bop transcriptions (most of stitt and rollins), slow them down until they're comfortable, play them a few times over, let it settle, do it again, then attempt to speed them up slowly. it won't happen overnight but nothing worth having does...

[ChrisLNZ]

yeah man, a lot of Charlie Parker's live stuff is very fast, i'm pretty sure he does Koko at at least 360, maybe quicker. Even scarier, however, is a CD i just borrowed from my uni library called Clifford Brown Live at the Bee Hive - Cherokee clocked at 410bpm! it sort of fluctuates quite a lot from about 390-410 i think, really quite ridiculous, Max's hats going crazy throughout. I really like the fast bird stuff, his lines are so strong anyway and when he plays them fast it almost accents there quality somehow! anyway enjoy your search for amazing music

[jazzbluescat]

I don't know how Joey DeFrancesco keep 325+ bpm up there on the B3 [Cherokee,THE AUTHORIZED BOOTLET cd]...damn. George Coleman ain't making the tempo, he sounds good but he's slacking it. :)

[Shawn]

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf600/f627/f62740qttnr.jpg

Max Roach + 4. This is fire breathing material, particularly the bonus track "It Don't Mean A Thing" which is so fast it comes off like the 1950's version of speed metal.

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drc300/c372/c37239v0249.jpg

The Hub of Hubbard. This is another fiery album, the version of Just One Of Those Things is so insanely fast I couldn't help but laugh the first time I heard it. (that's a compliment)