Improvising over modal tunes

[zeerust2000]

I was wondering what approaches you might use to improvising over modal tunes such as "So What". In particular, what techniques might be used when moving away from the basic tonality, whether thinking purely melodically through substitute scales and motif developement, or taking a more harmonic approach. Any thoughts?

[gennation]

Hopefully this is an endless thread.

The basics is D Dorian for Dm7 and Eb Dorian for Ebm7. Although, every other note is available as a leading tone in and out for the Dorian notes.

While it's considered Dorian modality, you will find Melodic Minor as well as Natural Minor through out the recorded tune. So, you'll find it's a great Minor Tune as well as a great Dorian tune.

There's a few real easy ways to color those chords nicely, play diatonic arp off each of the primary tones in the chord, IOW...

for D Dorian use an Fmaj7 arp (that's the diatonic chord built from Dm7's m3 note), also use an Am7 arp (that's the diatonic chord built from Dm7's 5th note).

Try the Gbmaj7 and Bbm7 for the Ebm7 chord.

Once you get the hang of this try every diatonic arp in D Dorian and Eb Dorian.

Are you familiar with Modal/Quartal chords? Those are very effective as chords, but also to stack lines in 4th's.

Also try the Tetra Chords as scales...and their Quadtonic and Quintonic relatives...(Ok, I made up the names "Quadtonic" and "Quintonic", but let me explain...)

Dm7 Terta chords/Scales:

D = D E F G
A = A B C D

Dm7 Quadtonic scales (Use the D and the A for a while before delving into the E):

D = D F G A
E = E G A B
A = A C D E

The Quintonic scales (again, try the D and A before dealing with the E):

D = D F G Ab A
E = E G A Bb B
A = A C D Eb E

Basically you can think of the Quadtonic scales as a D, E and A Minor Pentatonic scale minus the b7'b, and the Quintonic scales as a D, E, and A Blues scale minus the b7's.

Once you're getting something out of those...combine them all into ONE set of scales...

D = D E F G Ab A
E = E F G A Bb B
A = A B C D Eb E

So you now have three scales to play that cover one scale, PLUS many of the common passing tones.

I made those names up on the fly, I base them off the Tetra chords, but there are only two Tetra chords from D to D, the D and A Tetra's. Once you throw in that E it's not 100% related to Tetra anymore. But mess with those arp and scale ideas because used all together they can give you a lot of cool Modal sounds over that tune.

[EdByrne]

Harmonic Terms

1 note: Unison, Prime
2 notes: Diad
3: Trichord
4: Tetrachord
5: Pentachord
6: Hexachord
7: Heptachord
8: Octachord
9: Nonachord
10: Dectachord

So What

In approaching improvising on "So what," I'd begin with the melody, which is in the bass voice. It is comprised of the following pitch collection: D, E, F, G, A, a Pentachord. Additionally, its salient intervals (gestures) are Perfect 4ths (up and down), down a Major 3rd, and stepwise diatonic movement up a P4. Of course, it transposes up for 8 bars, which serves as a bridge.

There are also rhythmic motives that can be mined, such as the "Charleston" rhythm beginning on beat three of the response to the bass line. Develop these.

On Davis' recording, the players seem to treat it as D minor (especially the Paul chambers on doublebass, but not Bill Evans), only sans a chord progression in favor of an oscillation between two modified quartal voicings; and they pepper it with the normal chromatic non-harmonic tones (especially Adderly).

[hookedonguitar]

Wow, this seems like a fantastic forum. Apologees for the otherwise unproductive post, but I just happened upon this page when i searched google for 'improvising' 'so what'. I've listened to the John Coltrane recording for improvinspiration, but the ideas on this page are proving far far more useful. Great job!

[EdByrne]

Wow, this seems like a fantastic forum. Apologees for the otherwise unproductive post, but I just happened upon this page when i searched google for 'improvising' 'so what'. I've listened to the John Coltrane recording for improvinspiration, but the ideas on this page are proving far far more useful. Great job!

Welcome to the forum, hookedonguitar. Glad you're enjoying yourself. Stick around, please.

[engelbach]

I think the best source for learning to play on So What is not Kind of Blue, but Miles's Saturday Night at the Blackhawk.

The tune is done at almost double the original tempo, and the three soloists — Miles, Hank Mobley, and Wyn Kelly — have three similar but slightly different approaches, all of which are valid and instructive.

The similarity is that they all play it as if it's a blues. The differences are idiomatic to their instruments and personal styles. Miles is sparse and laid back. Mobley is lyrical and funky. Kelly smokes and builds to an amazing climax.

I learned a great deal listening to this track, and still go back to it for inspiration.

[SargentHall]

I think the best source for learning to play on So What is not Kind of Blue, but Miles's Saturday Night at the Blackhawk.

The tune is done at almost double the original tempo, and the three soloists — Miles, Hank Mobley, and Wyn Kelly —

I have the impression that Wynton Kelly treats the tune like a long G dominant improve - his approach sounds old school to me, compared to Evans, anyway...that's not a criticism, I like old school...

[hookedonguitar]

Welcome to the forum, hookedonguitar. Glad you're enjoying yourself. Stick around, please.

I certainly will! By the way you're discussing the music alone, I know I'll learn a lot from you all.

Oh, and I'll be sure to check out Saturday Night at the Blackhawk

[Phourtay]

I have the impression that Wynton Kelly treats the tune like a long G dominant improve - his approach sounds old school to me, compared to Evans, anyway...that's not a criticism, I like old school...

i dunno, thinking of dominants eliminate alot of work and leave the musician more room to express personal ideas rather than over thinking it. most of the time (about 90% of the time), i'm thinking of the dominant rather than worrying about every individual chord.

[engelbach]

I was wondering what approaches you might use to improvising over modal tunes such as "So What". In particular, what techniques might be used when moving away from the basic tonality, whether thinking purely melodically through substitute scales and motif developement, or taking a more harmonic approach. Any thoughts?

There are also several videos of Miles playing So What with various people, including Coltrane, at both slow and fast tempos, on YouTube.

[bossman]

I think the biggest advice that helped me for modal tunes is to shed and shed and shed stuff in 4ths. This stuff works on any kind of tune, it just sounds modern and kind of airy i guess. A lot of piano players these days voice in 4ths often so it sounds kind of cool to replicate that in your solos.

You can do stuff in 5ths, too. Similar exercises as the ones I'll describe below. A thing I find really nice to add some color is to move completely in perfect fifths, starting on the third of a plain old min7 chord that hangs out for a while (like in So What.) So like this: F C G D A E B Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F C G, and end on any of the consonant notes at the end, after the Bb. You can leap octaves to stay in the range you'd want to, but practice it over the whole horn (or axe or whatever you play.)

Playing in 4ths:
Diatonic 4ths:
on a dorian Dm7: D G C F B E A D
practice in all keys.

Perfect 4ths:
on a dorian Dm7: D C G F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A
practice in all keys.

Passing chords:
This one I really like. Try it out on an aebersold recording or with band in a box to see if you like the sound:
on a dorian Dm7: A D G [F# C# G#] G C F
practice in all keys.

You can come up with a ton of other exercises on your own, I gotta get going.

[zeerust2000]

One thing I've been playing with is to use all seven transpositions of a certain scale that include the modal tonic as one of their pitches. For example, if you use the 'altered dominant' scale derived from the ascending melodic minor (ie on D this will be D, Eflat, F, F#, Aflat, Bflat and C) then using this this scale with it's starting points on the following notes will give you all the versions of the scale that include the pitch D : D, E, F#, G#, Bflat, B, C#. Each scale can have a number of underlying chord voicings. Of course there's nothing wrong with using a scale that doesn't include your modal tonic, but this method can give you some interesting chord and scale colours. I've experimented with moving freely around these scales and chords and incorporating them into solos.