Jazz Piano Comping

[Slant]

This is a question for the experienced pianists on the forum.

I'm wondering if there is a "general" approach to comping that's followed by most pianists as they are learning the art? In other words, if I were to go to a good piano teacher tomorrow and ask him/her to "teach me to comp," what sort of response would I get? Would there be consistency from teacher to teacher, or is this a technique that really does vary widely? I'm basically wondering what the essential elements of comping are...

Thanks!

[Jakeweiser]

I'm not a piano player but I am a comping instrumentalist and these are universal concepts.

I would say there are two categories

Technical
- Good Musical Time
- Good Metronomic Time
- Good Voicings
- Good Dynamic control

Practical
- Playing sensitively and listening to the soloist
- Realize that different instruments require different mind sets for soloists. You probably won't comp for a Tenor saxophonist the same way you comp for a Vocalist or Bassist.
- Having ears enough to be able to react appropriately to a soloist in a given situation. Example, if you hear someone going out, what do you do? That's a question that can have many answers. You should have a good command of common substitutions that you will hear. Especially in terms of Blues and Rhythm Changes and as many variations on them that you can learn.



All to often when learning about Comping do young musicians come away with spending far to much time learning voicings that are hip or whatever you want to call them. In reality it should be as much a role of Initiation and Reaction as well as voicings etc. Voicings are a finite thing, you can learn so many chord voicings and they remain the same every time you play them. However, your intention when playing them must be dictated by the soloist. Do you react by copying him after a line, or do you finish that line, if he gives you space do you feed him an idea and initiate the direction of the solo for him/her. You are composing as a comper as well, and you should be composing the tune you are playing. Remember, you're still improvising. Only now you are doing so in a secondary role. In a role to make someone else sound good. To make them comfortable.

The last time I asked a teacher about comping he told me these sorts of things. Then again, I have the privilage of a master teacher. The teacher before told me the answers were in the library with records. If you listen to great comping pianists and study their style you will see it rub off.

I would highly recommend that you go and get Wes Montgomery's Smokin' at the Half note and listen to Wynton Kelley as he comps on that album. It's possibly one of the most swinging bands ever.

[EdByrne]

This is a question for the experienced pianists on the forum.

I'm wondering if there is a "general" approach to comping that's followed by most pianists as they are learning the art? In other words, if I were to go to a good piano teacher tomorrow and ask him/her to "teach me to comp," what sort of response would I get? Would there be consistency from teacher to teacher, or is this a technique that really does vary widely? I'm basically wondering what the essential elements of comping are...

Thanks!

Slant:

My best guess is that most teachers will primarily address the voicings and their related scales, because it is easy to teach.

What I address primarily (at first), however, is the rhythms. Each rhythmic style has its own comping rhythms. I always play the music of the drums; I view all improvisations as drum solos first. A good teacher can show you these--from the most basic on up. Also important is to study recordings of each style of comping. Pick a few examples to start with and clap the rhythmic patterns the pianist or guitarist is playing (or "play" them on your coffee table). I like to start with Red Garland's comps with Miles Davis' band.

For example, in swing feel play short "pecks" off of beats 2 and 4. This acts as a catalyst for forward motion against the bassist's quarter note line.

[Egbert Souse]

Recently, I went to hear a group that a piano player friend whom I consider a masterful accompanist/comper was playing with. I made a minidisk recording of the performance (with permission, of course) but was too close to the piano and it far predominated the mix. While the recording was not a good representation of the group, I can't stop listening to it because his comping is so magical. There are a lot of piano players I love to listen to but don't particularly like to play with and playing with this guy is like having your picture taken by one of those "glamour photographers".

It may help to make similar live recordings (with permission, of course). I'm sure it's a great help to listen to commercially available recordings and trying to zero in on what the piano player is doing but I've never been able to hear the little subtleties like I can on this otherwise unacceptible recording.

I am a saxophone player who has spent enough time at the piano that I have a fairly good knowledge of changes and voicings but not enough time to overcome the feeling that I'm on foreign soil when at the piano. I also love to play tenor with chordless trios and have tried on occasion (say, when another horn player sits in) to do some comping. Regardless how many voicings I may know and no matter how hard it's swinging, the instant my fingers hit the keys, all swinging comes to a screeching halt.

SO...
other than some common sense rules (don't double the bass if there's a bass player, don't play the melody, etc.), i know it's not ALL about voicings and I suspect that Ed is onto something.
I commend you highly for giving it some thought; it's a skill that horn players will love you forever for.

[Phil Kelly]

Everything Jake and Ed said is ( as usual) spot on information.

The only thing I might add is the concept of using
"space" ..Ed alluded to this with the idea of "pecks" on the up of 2 and 4 ..and both mentioned two excellent bebop compers ( Wynton Kelly and Red Garland ). Space allows the energy generated by the bass and drums to come through.

Ballads ( and vocal accompanying in general ) require some differing approaches due to the fact that in this context, the sustained chords and inventive voicings become more useful at the slower tempos. The "trick" here is to learn NOT to lead the soloist ( or vocalist ) unless specifically asked to do so.

Good vocal accompanists to check out include;
Jimmy Rowles, Norman Simmons, and Bill Charlap.

[Slant]

What I address primarily (at first), however, is the rhythms. Each rhythmic style has its own comping rhythms.

Ed,

Are you saying above that "the rhythms" utilized in the melody should be emulated by the comping instrument during solos? I guess I'm not clear on what you're saying...or are you saying that if one tune calls for latin, then there are particular comps for that while bop has a whole other set??

[EdByrne]

Ed,

Are you saying above that "the rhythms" utilized in the melody should be emulated by the comping instrument during solos? I guess I'm not clear on what you're saying...or are you saying that if one tune calls for latin, then there are particular comps for that while bop has a whole other set??

Both, but I was mainly referring here to generic rhythms inherent in each rhythmic style, such as , swing, bossa, samba, Cuban, Salsa, Cumbia, Rhythm and Blues, Blues, etc. These are all mostly comprised of short, polymetric recurring rhythms stacked one upon another; and there are common formulas with which to begin--related, but different, ones for each instrument function, such as piano, vibes, or guitar comping.

[tweebinmusic]

comping:

on piano voicing possibilities are much less finite than guitar... but limitation to particular sets create specific impacts. For example, leading tertial voicings into more quartal structures and alternating often creates a strong impact. Make notes on the sounds you like, and find different ways to put them together in your practice sessions.

consider harmonic, polyphonic and melodic approaches. moving lines and strong melodic movement in voice leading can really liven up seemingly dull changes and sometimes they become a force of nature in themselves, creating subtle (or not so subtle) variations in harmony.

for pianists it is important to consider not only the notes in your voicings, but also how to balance the notes in your voicing. as an exercise play a C triad using only your right hand, and try and bring out each note of the triad as the dominant voice. Once you are sure you can hear the difference move on to more complex voicings and try the same idea. Sometimes lightly dusting a major or minor second in your chord will create an entirely different effect than voicing evenly. (Oscar Peterson talks about this in his Piano Jazz interview.)

Also get a feel for the sound of breaking chords up slightly. This is like an arpeggiation of grace note but it happens on the whole chord. you can break it down, up or in any other shape... inside out, outside in, etc. This can be overused, and sometimes all notes sounded at the same time is most effective, but it is another great way to change your "tone" using pianism.

Listen, emulate, figure out what you like. Read books like Levine's Jazz Piano book and the Phil DeGreg text. Also playing well arranged piano parts for big band will also get you playing some great voicings.

Lastly, since the pianist needs to keenly listen to horn players for linear harmony... find an experienced horn player and practice comping. For example, narrow the possibilites to altered scale and diminished style licks and try and accurately pick out the harmony and come up with appropriate choices. The feedback you will gain in this kind of setting can be invaluable on the bandstand.

The top ten most important things for a pianist when comping:
10) Ear Training
9) Know when to lay low, play less, and play roles.
8) Learn when to spur on the moment. When you do, commit strongly and follow through with your idea.
7) Get comfortable with the vast range of the instrument... for example figuring out how to share the low end with your bassist (Done well this leads to a great deal of dynamic range and vitality, but many avoid its perils)
6) Be interesting without being obnoxious.
5) Keep a balance between variety and clarity
4) Know how to support a rhythmic idea, or generate one, and how to play good time, even at very fast and very slow tempi
3) Avoid mimicry (most of the time)

------the last two are particularly important once you have left the practice room and have moved on to the live session--------

2) Learn to trust in your own sound well enough to not overpower your own ears, giving you access to what is going on in the R/S and with the soloist.
1) Have a solid knowledge of tune form and structure. Getting off the page, making eye contact and being familiar with your musical surroundings is a huge part of strong musical interaction. You will need to get used to following the form in all sorts of situations, including drum solos... Confidence in the time and form is critical to great comping.

[Slant]

Technical
- Good Musical Time
- Good Metronomic Time
- Good Voicings
- Good Dynamic control



Jake,

I'm interested in your response because you seem to make a distinction between "metronomic time" and "musical time". What are you getting at there? For instance, when I play w/ the metronome in the practice room, I try like hell to sound musical at the same time! In other words, I don't really make a distinction between two different "types" of time. For me, either it swings or it doesn't...

[Slant]

The top ten most important things for a pianist when comping:
10) Ear Training
9) Know when to lay low, play less, and play roles.
8) Learn when to spur on the moment. When you do, commit strongly and follow through with your idea.
7) Get comfortable with the vast range of the instrument... for example figuring out how to share the low end with your bassist (Done well this leads to a great deal of dynamic range and vitality, but many avoid its perils)
6) Be interesting without being obnoxious.
5) Keep a balance between variety and clarity
4) Know how to support a rhythmic idea, or generate one, and how to play good time, even at very fast and very slow tempi
3) Avoid mimicry (most of the time)

------the last two are particularly important once you have left the practice room and have moved on to the live session--------

2) Learn to trust in your own sound well enough to not overpower your own ears, giving you access to what is going on in the R/S and with the soloist.
1) Have a solid knowledge of tune form and structure. Getting off the page, making eye contact and being familiar with your musical surroundings is a huge part of strong musical interaction. You will need to get used to following the form in all sorts of situations, including drum solos... Confidence in the time and form is critical to great comping.

Thanks! This is exactly the type of thing I was hoping to uncover here.

[Jakeweiser]

metronomic time would be the ability to play without shifting the tempo, to be able to run 8th notes and have that stuff locked up cold.

Musical time is more of the ability to be able to shift in and out of a strict since of the beat, to interact with the time itself and bend it to your will without disrupting. This also works with Rubato, playing in broken feels were the quarter note is not always spoon fed to the band by bassists or drummers

[bwv1005]

I'm surprised that nobody here has mentioned playing with vocalists. Comping for a vocalist (if they are good) will vastly improve your skills. Mostly because it sounds so terrible when you mess up or play something inappropriate. You need to avoid stepping on the toes of the vocalist, and if there is a bass, avoid that also. It's a very specific skill, which transfers back into instrumental playing. Consider some of these piano/vocal pairings: Bill Evans with Tony Bennett, George Shearing with Mel Torme, Ray Charles with Jimmy Scott, Nat King Cole with himself...

--mo

[Phil Kelly]

I'm surprised that nobody here has mentioned playing with vocalists. Comping for a vocalist (if they are good) will vastly improve your skills. Mostly because it sounds so terrible when you mess up or play something inappropriate. You need to avoid stepping on the toes of the vocalist, and if there is a bass, avoid that also. It's a very specific skill, which transfers back into instrumental playing. Consider some of these piano/vocal pairings: Bill Evans with Tony Bennett, George Shearing with Mel Torme, Ray Charles with Jimmy Scott, Nat King Cole with himself...

--mo


uhh .. Mo ..

see post #5

:thewave :thewave :thewave :thewave

[BradleyDalton]

Hi

Jazz piano is the use of an acoustic piano or electric piano as an improvising instrument in a jazz group or jazz fusion ensemble. The piano has been an integral part of the jazz idiom since its inception, in both solo and ensemble settings....
http://sentersoftech.com/senter/happy.gif

[AdamMeinerding]

Hi

Jazz piano is the use of an acoustic piano or electric piano as an improvising instrument in a jazz group or jazz fusion ensemble. The piano has been an integral part of the jazz idiom since its inception, in both solo and ensemble settings....
http://sentersoftech.com/senter/happy.gif


Wow. Thank you.

[engelbach]

Hi

Jazz piano is the use of an acoustic piano or electric piano as an improvising instrument in a jazz group or jazz fusion ensemble. The piano has been an integral part of the jazz idiom since its inception, in both solo and ensemble settings....
http://sentersoftech.com/senter/happy.gif
I did not know that.