Improvisational Approach

[pallemino]

I have a tune that im jamming on at the moment. Just wondering if anyone could give me some ideas so far as approaching it as an improviser..


'Just Friends'


Cmaj | Cmaj | Cm7 | F7 |
Gmaj | Gmaj | Bbmin | Ebm7 |
Am | D7 | Bmin | Em7 |

A7 | A7 | Am7 | D7 Db7 |

Cmaj | Cmaj | Cm7 | F7 |
Gmaj | Gmaj | Bbmin | Ebm7 |
Am | D7 | Bmin | Em7 |

A7 | Am7 D7 | G6 | Dm7 G7 |

(dont have the chart on me, these chords are from memory)
Ok to my understanding its basically just a bunch of 2-5-1's modulating through a few keys.

When soloing. I would start with Cmaj scale, move to Bb Major ( C dorian then F myxo technically speaking.) then Gmaj then Abmajor ( dorian. myxo ect.. )
and so forth..

This seems like the most logial way to approach it at a glance. However my guitar teacher mentioned something about treating the first chord as Lydian. So were assuming its in G. Having said that.. is my logic, so far as choice of scales at all wrong.. have i missed something?

Asside from the fact that im a shithouse improviser, the scales im using seem to make enough sense when im jamming and dont sound 'off'. I guess that's an answer in itself. Anywho...

If anyone can give me advice on other ways i might approach these chord movements when improvising i would appreciate it.

[TheSeanKelly]

What you've decided upon is exactly where you wanna be starting out on.

The lydian thing; lots of people like to play lydian on major7ths instead of ionian because the sharp four adds color to lines and provides some interesting movement.

If you could post a recording of what you're currently doing over stuff, that might help people offer you advice

[Jakeweiser]

You can use Scales if you wish to, I would suggest on a tune like this, using the chord tones will give you less to worry about and get more the core of the sounds.

This tune has some classic harmonic movements, which is why it is so popular to call. Here is my suggestion for even the start of this tune

Cma7 | % | Cm7 | F7 | GMa7 <----- Look at this progression. The Tne is un GMajor and starts on it's IV chord then does this Cm7 F7 GMa7 progression which is known as a Subdominant ii V I or a "Backdoor" ii V, It's derived from Melodic Minor, it's a melodic minor sound. You can play C major over those 1st to bars if you feel like it, but a great sound over that Cm7 F7 is to play C melodic Minor and resolve it to Gmaj7. I think you'll like the sound.

The whole Lydian thing is that Jazz teachers seem to want to force Lydian down everyone's throat saying that unless a Major 7 chord says +5 then it's naturally a Lydian chord. But if you play every CMa7 chord with a lydian scale then it'll get boring fast. Ionian is perfectly legal. Even if the F natural is "an avoid tone".

I would stress you working out the arpeggios for this tune and see how each chord connects to the next one by 1/2 steps. This is voice leading and it's fundamentally vital. All the scales in the world mean nothing if you cannot voice lead a jazz line.

I would work on memorizing the changes better ;)

Also this tune, in my experience at least is more commonly called in F major rather then C.

Best of luck

[TheSeanKelly]

Jake: not to change the subject of the post, but i never knew you could use the melodic minor like that..I only know it as useful over a minor ii V I or min maj7th chords (which you never see anyway..).

Any other standard situations you can use it in that come up often?

[Jakeweiser]

well I personally like the sound of Melodic minor over Major since there is more colour to the sound of the scale.

You can use a Cmm scale over a Cm7 F7 progression. I like the M7 on that sound over the m7 chord, it's a colour that I think is really wonderful. Of course I'm a guy that likes M3rd on m7 chords as well so what can I say :shrug:


Of course you'll want to get your IV and VII modes of MM happening for dominant chords.

[pallemino]

Thanks guys.

Its sad that i dont allready know this basic stuff. I have been playing for many years and can more or less play anything (within reason) if i have the dots infront of me. Improvisation is a whole new world for me as opposed to classic written music.

Ill keep at it and maybe even post something for critical analysis later on :)

Cheers
Mike.

[BillGrahamMusic]

While I take issue with lydian being used incessantly on I chords, I think its a totally appropriate sound to play on IV chords. Since "Just Friends" is in G, I think that its perfectly logical, reasonable, and acceptable to use C lydian on the first 2 bars. To my ears, that more readily will establish the key center.

Bill

[jazzfingers19]

Sean check this out.

First -MAJ7 chords I see a lot. Nica's dream comes to mind real fast...and i substitute them for other chords a lot. Like instead of g-7b5 play Bb-MAJ9


Melodic Minor over Dom.....Ed don't crucify me I learned it like this way back....you do what you do with it right?

G7

Ab MM...classic altered sound (1/2 step above root)

F MM- gives you your altered 9s Ab-Bb (Whole step behind root)

C MM- b13 ( P4 above Root)

DMM - #11 ( P5 above dom)

You can also grab at the MM a tritone above the root.

they key is arpeggiating them first and mixing in between the G7 and the MM arpeggio.

TO THE POSTER



Try this too. CMaj7/%/C-7 F7/ G Maj7/%

B - Pentatonic over Cmaj7 (gives you a beautiful lydian sound with tensions) to C-Penatonic over the ii V....back to B- pent over the GMaj7. Practice your pentatonic permutation stuff. Kind of goes in line with arpeggios no?

The Melody of this tune reallly tells you a lot too.

I am peronally really working on devolping some kind of way to link the way a piano player comps with his/her left hand and corresonding pentatonic scales in that area on the fret board. Think this for a voicing Root, 3rd, 7th.......now this is a classic major 7 voicing we all know. but play it from the b7 of a dominant chord or a whole step behind it and you get a 13.....from there I am working on creating pentatonics under that voicing...so for that I made up a Lydian b7 pentatonic. This way I am expanding the way I see things harmonically and linearly at the same time.

I am sure this will go beyond a summer's worth of work.

[pallemino]

Its winter down here.. but all the same :p

cheers :)

[Phourtay]

for me, i usually think of all the chords as dominants like that 1st Cmaj7 for 2 bars, you can think of it as a G7, then the next 2 bars you just think of F7 instead of thinking of the Cmin7 to the F7, and so on. but since the changes don't follow in a specific general pattern, i sat down with the tune constructed a couple of choruses with ideas that revolved around dominants and connected them together thru the changes. i relied on various transcriptions i had done to come up with those ideas, then tweaked them alittle bit for my own flavor, and then eventually, after getting a general feel for the song, i gained more freedom with it...

[Tarquin1986]

Regarding whether to use Ionian or Lydian on the Cmaj7:
Try this, sing over a couple of choruses of the progression without thinking about what you're doing too much. Recod this singing. Listen back and check what you sang over the Cmaj chord. Any Fs? Any F#s? The answer is within you.

Also, listen to the melody. Does it seem to specify either scale?

[EdByrne]

MELODY MELODY MELODY:shrug: ~pimp: :confused: :gavel: :eek: :secret :mad: :cry: :smokin: :rolleyes: :angry3: :cool: :fineprint :frown2: :deadhorse :deadhorse :deadhorse

[Jeff Lampert]

'Just Friends'


Cmaj | Cmaj | Cm7 | F7 |
Gmaj | Gmaj | Bbmin | Ebm7 |
Am | D7 | Bmin | Em7 |

A7 | A7 | Am7 | D7 Db7 |

Cmaj | Cmaj | Cm7 | F7 |
Gmaj | Gmaj | Bbmin | Ebm7 |
Am | D7 | Bmin | Em7 |

A7 | Am7 D7 | G6 | Dm7 G7 |


I'm new to the forum and I'll throw in my .02 cents.

Harmonically, the song is entirely in the G key center with a couple of common twists, such as the backdoor dominant previosuly mentioned. And as was pointed out, the C melodic minor scale covers that real well.

So, to make it harmonically more interesting, here's a few ideas.

Over the Cmaj7, play ii-V lines/arpeggios outlining an Am7-D7, which will work nicely against the Cmaj7 since they are all modes from the G major scale. Leaning on the A and D notes provide color over the Cmaj7.

Over the Bbdim, play lines from B harmonic minor.

Over Am7-D7, play lines/arpeggios for Cmaj7 since they are all modes from the G major scale. Also, E minor pentatonic.

You should also sub F#m7b5-B7 for the Bm. I know It's in the Real Book as Bm, but Bm just isn't a good chord for resolving to the Em7. Even though there is a D note in the melody, that would make the B7 into a B7alt or B7#9, which is way cool. Over the B7alt, play C melodic minor. If instead you look to the next choord and make it a ii-V-i (i.e. F#m7-B7-Em7), then you can also play E harmonic minor.

The A9 is a secondary dominant. Since it is following the Em7, you can change from E harmonic minor to E melodic minor. Then it's the Am7-D7 ii-V.

The rest more or less repeats. Just remember that the tune if basically all in a key center of G, so in your improviosation, don't lose track of the G tonality.

[Jhonkas]

Jake: not to change the subject of the post, but i never knew you could use the melodic minor like that..I only know it as useful over a minor ii V I or min maj7th chords (which you never see anyway..).

Any other standard situations you can use it in that come up often?

also...if you use the melodic minor over a major iimi7-V7 (melodic minor instead of dorian minor), you'll have use of the #11 on the V7, which provides some very nice color.