Harmonic Progressions

[kevinr]

Hi all !
I have just the basic melody to 'Sunday' by Miller-Cohn-Stein-Krueger and I;m trying to create a duet part for it,with piano in accompanment and bass.
I;ve been studying counterpoint for the last year and feel a bit frustrated now with errrrr trying to apply its principles into......well to be honest Im, not a big fan of jazz;but I just wanted to take ANY melody and try and harmonise it with a another voicing.......em sorry all you hardcore jazzers !!!
OK first thing.........
the progression starts with the melody D over a Cma7,C over a F7,B over a Emi7,the lead then leaps to a D descending to a suspended C over a E flat diminished;dropping to a anticipated A ? before entering Dmin7..........and ok etc.
Can anyone here tell me whats going in this progression ?Learning counterpoint has taught me some good theory on how to harmonise a melody,but not how to understand a progression.I understand the basic function of the V chord in leading backing to the tonic or modulating into a nearby key.But here I'm a bit stumped......F7 going into Emin7 ?? shouldn;t that modulate into B flat ?E flat diminished ?? how does that relate to D minor ?...I;m thinking its just a passing chord ?.
Any help on this much appreciated !Looking to join the 20th century ~pimp: as soon as I've finished the four part writing heheheh !!!!!
Cheers,
Kev

[bossman]

Well I'm no expert by any means but:

F7 to Em7: F7 is a tritone sub of B7, which is tonicizing the IIIm7 chord (Em7.)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "C over Eb diminished," but the C in an Ebdim is just the 6th, and it is part of the arpeggio: Eb-Gb-A-C. It might be one of those french or german or italian 6ths in classical music, if you're familiar with those. I have to brush up on my classical theory, its been a llloooonnnggg time. Either way, its biio of ii. Methinks it has a tonicizing effect.

Then the Dm7 probably goes to G7, or Db7 and back to Cmaj, or that G7 can resolve to Em7 or Am7 too, pretty logically.

For harmonizing, I think its just a matter of knowing what notes work over what chords, and which ones don't, besides having the theoretically right notes, you have to know stuff like no 4th in a major chord, no root over a maj7 chord (usually creates a b9 interval between the chords + melody,) etc... stuff like that.

[kevinr]

Hi !
Thanks for getting back to me !I;ve never come across the tritone substit. until now !So the idea is that the A and the E flat in F7 would resolve in excately the same way as a the A and D sharp in B7 ?That sounds cool,I like that.
How does that work with a E minor7 though ?.Does the A go down two steps towards the G ?.
As for a flattened II diminished,I think I have read about a bit in classical theory too,but I never been totally sure on how to use it or how its supposed to resolve ?Is its function similiar to V ??.Is it considered to lead back into a tonic ?Be great if you could point out whats going on with this chord for me !!!
Yep;after that you,re right it goes into G7;then B Flat 7- I guess this is acting like the E flat dim ? - then A7.D7.G7.C6.A7.DMI7 G7 then phewwww home to the Cma7 !!!
Thanks for you help dude,
Kev

[bassist]

there is no flat II diminished in classical theory. if you had a fully diminished 7th chord built on scale degree flat 2 in classical theory, it could have many different functions. let's talk in the key of C major or minor, so that i can use letter names. so, a fully diminished 7th chord built on Db... let's call it C#... is C#, E, G, Bb. this chord could serve the followign functions: an applied leading tone diminished seventh resolving to D major or minor, F major or minor, Ab major or minor, Cb (B) major or minor. so that is already 8 resolutions. additionally, it could be a common tone diminished 7th that would resolve to C# major or dominant (or minor, much less commonly), E major or dominant (or minor, much less commonly), G major or dominant (or minor, much less commonly), or Bb major or dominant (or minor, much less commonly).
yep... diminished 7th chords are tricky in that they have MANY different possible resolutions. in the romantic period, composers had figured this out and used them to full effect.... they would have them resolve one way, then bring the same chord back again and have it resolve somewhere else to make a quick modulation.

the other thing you might be thinking of.... it is the only chord built off of scale degree flat 2 in common classical theory... it's the neopolitan. however, this is a major triad built on scale degree flat 2, not a diminished sound.





ANYWAYS..... it is important to know that classical theory and jazz theory don't have a ton in common (although when my classical professor started showing us examples of the octagonal scale... which i knew as half-step whole-step diminished, i thought that was pretty awesome). if you are looking for an application of your harmony and counterpoint skills... why don't you try composing something simple. a simple theme and a variation or something like that. unless what you are actually looking for is to apply your harmony and counterpoint skills to jazz... in which case you are on the right track. just dont' expect what you have learned in harmony and counterpoint classes to transfer directly over to jazz. you have to re-think principles from classical theory to understand hwo they relate to jazz theory.

dan

[kevinr]

Hi Dan,
Cheers for that.From yours and the others guys post,I can see quite clearly the logic in going from the Eflat dim rsolving onto the Dm !
Seems like you have a classical background too huh ?.What inspired you get into Jazz ?.As the thoery as you,ve suggested doesn;t always match,did you find getting into Jazz quite a difficult switch ?.
Like I say,I'm not a hardcore jazzer or nothing....I just like cramming my poor brain with as much as is out there as possible !!
Anyways cheers for your take,
Laters;
Kev

[kevinr]

Hi,
Just out of interest,if you were to play the chords for the melody above,how would you voice the piano chords ?!
Kev

[bossman]

You're exactly right about the tritone substitution. F7 and B7 have the same tritone, A-Eb, and both chords resolve the same way. (7th goes to 3rd of the next chord and vice versa.)

Without the melody in the right hand, there's a really basic way for piano voicings that most jazz musicians regardless of instrument should know:

LH: always plays root unless it's a slash chord.
RH: 3-5-7-9 or 7-9-3-5 except on dominant, where you replace the 5 with the 13, or 6, and you can alter the 9th however you like. I'll show it without altered dominants (but still with the 13th cause that's not an option, it has to be the 13.) With diminished chords, theres a cool way I like to play them (im a saxophonist though,) where you have lets say B in the bass, then on top you put D F Ab C#. The C# gives it a really nice color. I'll use that voicing in the example.

ie: Cmaj7 | F7.......| Em7....| Ebdim7.| Dm7
(L.H. Always on the root)
RH: BDEG | ADEbG | GBDF#| GbACF | FACE

[bassist]

kev,
yep... i study classical music in school. i'm really interested in classical theory and music history (western music history). i've been interested in jazz music for the last few years... much more so than in classical music. my school only has a classical program, so that is what i study. many of the students are interested in jazz, so we all learn with one another and play together... but our professors teach us classical stuff. anyways... i just spend a lot of time thinking about jazz, listening to jazz, reading jazz, and playing jazz. eventually, you begin to understand how jazz harmony works. and then, if you think enough on something, it becomes clear how it relates to something analagous in classical theory. it's really all the same stuff........... just each language puts a slightly different spin on things.
dan

[kevinr]

Hi,
Wow them voicing look totally groovey !! Its funny cos I just wote a real basic progression like this
Cma F7 Emin7 E flat dim Dm G
E C G F Sharp F Natural F
G A B C C B
C F E E Flat D G

You probably see what I mean now about the counterpoint studies !!
I noticed in yours,you;re making good use of extensions.I guess thats something I'd really like to learn more about.Are they used quite freely in Jazz ?Do they have to resolve,or can they be left unresolved ?I notice you let the 9 over F7 resolve to the ninth in Emin,and then shock horror heheh to an F over the E flat ?.This is like really mind blowing to me after studying Fux for a year !!Anyway I,m off to try them voicings.....
Ps a quick question for bassist........
is harmony in Jazz reckoning from the bass like in Classical ?

[bassist]

sorry... kev... whta did you mean by "reckoning"? i'm not understanding your question. care to rephrase it and try again?
dan

[bossman]

Hi,
Wow them voicing look totally groovey !! Its funny cos I just wote a real basic progression like this
Cma F7 Emin7 E flat dim Dm G
E C G F Sharp F Natural F
G A B C C B
C F E E Flat D G

You probably see what I mean now about the counterpoint studies !!
I noticed in yours,you;re making good use of extensions.I guess thats something I'd really like to learn more about.Are they used quite freely in Jazz ?Do they have to resolve,or can they be left unresolved ?I notice you let the 9 over F7 resolve to the ninth in Emin,and then shock horror heheh to an F over the E flat ?.This is like really mind blowing to me after studying Fux for a year !!Anyway I,m off to try them voicings.....
Ps a quick question for bassist........
is harmony in Jazz reckoning from the bass like in Classical ?

Extensions give colors to the chords, they aren't necessary at all in theory, but in common practice you'll get some looks if you play a plain old 1-3-5 triad for the dominant instead of playing 3-7-(b or # or natural)9-(b or natural)13. They don't have to be in that order in your fingers, obviously. The voicings I mentioned are the basic ones that will work in jazz and it won't sound too corny. So to answer your question, they are used VERY freely in jazz. The players don't even have to know which ones the other is doing, for example in my solos even if the pianist is playing G7b9 and me, the horn soloist, is throwing in the #9, #11 and b13 in there and treating them as consonant chord tones, it will not sound "wrong." It might sound a bit "weird" to some people, but only because those notes by their nature are "weird." The pianist rarely clashes with the soloist as far as extensions go. They're extra in theory, but they are, in common practice, necessary. Get used to them, hehe, it's not fun to be in horror of an F over an Eb, thats the ninth, the most tame of all extensions!

There are so many possibilities for extensions... Dominants are most flexible, though. Basically you need the root (don't even need the root, if you're playing with a bassist,) 3rd and 7th. Those 3 notes define the chord qualities enough. Then everything you add on it is not needed to define the chord, but makes a huge difference in how it sounds. Major chords, for example, you can play 1-3-#11-7-9, or 1-3-5-6-9, or anything. Go by what you hear and what you like. Practice the basic voicings I mentioned earlier, and try adding the b9, #9, #11 and b13 on dominants (separately, or 2 mixed together with the 3rd and 7th in the R.H.)

As for resolving- I'd say it's better for the pianist to keep the fingers jumping the least amount possible than to try to always resolve everything. Keep all common tones between two chords, try to move everything as little as possible. Of course sometimes you HAVE to jump, but try as best you can to limit that, at first.

Also, I'm not sure what you were asking bassist either, but I'll say that the bass note is much more important in jazz than it is in classical- you rarely get chords written in inversion on the chart itself, and so the bassist will usually land on the root on the strong beat.

[kevinr]

Hi,
Thanks for that !Thats given me a much better insight then before.....I can have a good go now at writing the piano part !
By reckoning from the bass I meant like in classical counterpoint .....all intervals are thought to be consonant or dissonant depending on their relationship with the bass. Specifically I mean in three part writing .
I think thats what confused me with using extensions.For example a ninth added on a Cma7 is dissonant against the bass,and wold generally occur in counterpoint as only on the weak beat.
I think I read somewhere that certain extensions are like natural extensions of the chord.So a ninth for example is consonant with the fifth,and the seven.Is it because it fits well with the other notes in the triad that its freely used and not always resolved ?I mean a minor ninth would raise eyebrows if wasn;t resolved as its not a natural extension ?This is what I meant by reckoning from the bass anyways.....as opposed to reckoning from alternatives notes in the triad !
Anyway thanks for help you,ve given me,its been a definate eye opener for me !!
Cheers,
Kev

[bassist]

i mean... still, humans hear from the bottom up, so the lowest note always strongly informs the harmony. it's just that in classical music and in jazz, the rules regarding what is consonant are different from one another. in jazz, any number of possible extensions ARE considered chord tones (and are thus acceptable over the bass or any other chord tone on any beat).
play it on the piano.... you'll see that the ninth doesn't sound dissonant to the ear if the chord is voiced well. now, in a two or three voice texture, it might sound more dissonant (although in jazz, often, for example, if a guitarist is playing a chord with three notes... the other notes are still implied... which is not likely to be the case in counterpoint, in which the harmonic implications of the lines are still not really flushed out... counterpoint still deals with melodic lines and only sort of the precursors to their harmonic function).
also, remember that fux' species counterpoint only represents a TEEEENY amount of time historically (and fux actually wrote much later than the period of music he was trying to describe in his system... but that's another story). before fux, the rules of what was consonant and what was dissonant were different than in species counterpoint. and after fux, they changed too. fux was never "the rule" in classical music. still, he prescribed rules for dissonance treatment that were taken seriously for a good long time... just the definition of dissonance shifted slightly over time. and jazz re-defined dissonance for itself.

let counterpoint inform you, but DO understand that you can't take what fux says literally in most classical settings, or in jazz settings.
i think the best place for counterpoint in jazz is in constructing walking bass lines. i.e... contrary motion sounds nice against the person playing the melody, when possible. but even so, this is certainly not a rule, and many jazz musicians are not aware of this as a rule in counterpoint... if they do it, it is just because it sonuds nice.
dan

[bossman]

Just by the way, the definition of dissonance in jazz:

-On non-dominant chords: a note a semitone above a basic chord tone (1-3-5-7.)
ie: a perfect 11th on a major seventh chord is dissonan, a flat nine on a minor chord is dissonant, etc...

-On dominant chords: a note a semitone above the 3rd or 7th.
ie: a flat ninth on a dominant is perfectly fine, but a perfect 11th would not be.

[bassist]

ah HA! i've never quite thought about it in those terms! thanks, bossman.
dan

[kevinr]

Hi,
Yep great thanks for that !I'll finish the four part counterpoint before I go any further with Jazz.But its great to know that there are plenty of other routes to explore after I feel confidant I've totally absorbed what Fux has to offer...
Best,
Kev

[RachBach]

Hi Bassist,

You mentioned "Examples of the octagonal scale" - Ummm...Er...Ummm, did you really mean to say *octatonic scale*?

Humbly,

RachBach

[bassist]

Hi Bassist,

You mentioned "Examples of the octagonal scale" - Ummm...Er...Ummm, did you really mean to say *octatonic scale*?

Humbly,

RachBach


yes indeed! i was apparently typing too quickly. i made one other error in that same post. try to follow my logic... you should come up with a big question mark somewhere... i said something stupid. the point i was trying to make is one that i believe... just my evidence as faulty. i DO have other evidence to back up my point... i just pulled up evidence that actually works against my point. see if you can find the error i'm speaking of. if you find it, my argument falls apart, so i'll have to post my stronger evidence that i have.

i realized this soon after i posted, but figured that the general point made sense and that people weren't likely to be fussy with the details. then i brainstormed about stronger evidence and figured that if someone attacked me on the details i would at least have something to back myself up with.

thanks for indulging me in this game!
dan

[RachBach]

Hi Bassist,

I mentioned it partly in jest. In no way do I wish to cause your brow to furrow. I'm no theory maven - I know just barely enough to get myself in real BIG trouble :gavel:


Cheers!

[bassist]

phewph!
that means i can leave my argument as it was in the previous post.
and cheers back atcha, man.
dan

[Phil Kelly]

Hi,
Yep great thanks for that !I'll finish the four part counterpoint before I go any further with Jazz.But its great to know that there are plenty of other routes to explore after I feel confidant I've totally absorbed what Fux has to offer...
Best,
Kev

As a big fan of contrapuntal jazz writing, I'd like to toss in the following:

Common practice c/p ( like the Fux book we've all had to winnow through in school )
provides many rules and restrictions that apply *only* to the prevailing harmonic norm of the period.

I submit a better choice of c/p studies that are more compatible with jazz and the Hindemith texts "Exercises in two part writing" and "The craft of Musical Composition".

Creating pitch sets out of jazz based materials like the octatonic scales, blues
( and even pentatonic scales with a few chromatic neighboring tones tossed in )and treated in a modified twelve tone manner
( using inversions, retrogrades and such ) will yield much more jazz friendly fodder when deployed with some of the Hindemithian principles ..

something else to consider ???

:cheers :gavel: :cheers :gavel: :cheers :gavel:

[EdByrne]

As a big fan of contrapuntal jazz writing, I'd like to toss in the following:

Common practice c/p ( like the Fux book we've all had to winnow through in school )
provides many rules and restrictions that apply *only* to the prevailing harmonic norm of the period.

I submit a better choice of c/p studies that are more compatible with jazz and the Hindemith texts "Exercises in two part writing" and "The craft of Musical Composition".

Creating pitch sets out of jazz based materials like the octatonic scales, blues
( and even pentatonic scales with a few chromatic neighboring tones tossed in )and treated in a modified twelve tone manner
( using inversions, retrogrades and such ) will yield much more jazz friendly fodder when deployed with some of the Hindemithian principles ..

something else to consider ???

:cheers :gavel: :cheers :gavel: :cheers :gavel:

I am very happy that master composer/arranger PK has posted this statement, since I too was thinking these very things while reading the above; but, for lack of a discreet way of wording it, I hesitated to bust your groove about CP, since it is an outstanding discipline--just not too directly focused on practical application in jazz, as Phil most astutely points out.

[Phil Kelly]

Also, I would recommend transcribing some of Bill Holmans work on a sketch pad ( not the whole chart! ) to get a feel of how he composes lines that mesh well.

Furthermore, I'd start with his older "classic" stuff as opposed to what he's doing these days.

Also, you might be able to buy Holman study scores from Sierra Music:

http://www.sierramusic.com/

[EdByrne]

Also, I would recommend transcribing some of Bill Holmans work on a sketch pad ( not the whole chart! ) to get a feel of how he composes lines that mesh well.

Furthermore, I'd start with his older "classic" stuff as opposed to what he's doing these days.

Also, you might be able to buy Holman study scores from Sierra Music:

http://www.sierramusic.com/
I couldn't agree more, and this brings some basic points to mind. In tonal music, the melody rules--usually in the soprano register. The guide tone line, which can be embellished and developed in a variety of ways, is usually in the tenor register, while the root progression resides in the bass register.

Each suggests a different fundamental rhythm (in general). For example:

Melody: QNs and 8th notes;

GTL: 1/2 notes;

RP: whole and 1/2 notes.

The different registers, functions, and rhythmic zones tend to distinguish one function from the other.

When you develop each of the three, you've have effectively, yet organically, created counterpoint--without having to intellectualize it too much.

Holman does this on an uncommonly fine level. One needs no pianist or guitarist to supply chords in his arrangments, since his lines combine to supply all the harmonic context one needs.

[Phil Kelly]

for those interested in jazz counterpoint, I've "attempted to post two PDF examples on:

http://www.freejazzinstitute.org/uploads/20070626152012_graypencil.pdf

hope they came through alright! ( I was able to see them after posting them )

* note: upon review, voices 1 and2 on example 2 are reversed on the PDF.
The top like is 8ve down ,and the bottom is 8va up ..

but it's invertible ..works both ways!

:thewave: