Days of Wine and Roses (F). analysis

[Ancillo]

hi all,
I'm about to start off with this tune.
any good analysis to share?

thks
a

[bossman]

What exactly do you want to know? The functions of each chord? What scales to use?

[bossman]

http://www.qquintet.com/daysanalysis.jpg

[Jakeweiser]

I would question some of those changes personally. However it's all a moot point, no one plays the same changes these days anyway.

Indeed one could give a random analysis of anything in this composition rather then pointing out harmonic function. What is it you are after specifically? I personally enjoy playing this tune a great deal (for whatever that's worth)

[Ancillo]

Hi All,

I'm quite a beginner on harmony.
I'd like to know chords relationships and scales you would use.

thks all for the very good replies!! :)

bossman, thks for the great scheme! I'll have a deeper look..
Jakeweiser, I like this tune a lot as well and I'd love to play it good..

cheers!

[Jakeweiser]

Ancillo

I think that you are going to have more success getting a more accurate and more authentic jazz approach to any standard by attacking the changes with a more Chord based approach rather then a Scalar approach. Especially on a standard tune such as this one where the chords move in very predicable patterns.

Basically what you are going to want to do is practice the arpeggios to these changes and see how each chord connects to the next one by half steps or whole steps. After practicing all the arpeggios to the chords then it's a matter of finding ways to spice them up which there are several ways to do so.

If you are dead set on using scales then you are giving yourself more information then you need at this point. Working with 4 note chords rather then 7 to 8 note scales gets you closer to the heart of the sound of the harmony and from there using techniques to create forward motion and chromatic ideas gets you even closer to that jazz sound.

There are places for sure that scalar ideas fit (everywhere) but one in specific is the Bb-7 Eb7(#11) FMa7 progression which Bossman labled a Backdoor. His chart does not have the Bb-7 chord, but this is a progression that is borrowed from Melodic Minor and is called a "Back Door ii V" or a "Subdominant ii V". Over the Bb-7 and Eb7(#11) chord a Bb Melodic Minor scale gets all the nice colour tones on both chords and resolves easily to an "A" which is the 3rd of the FMa7 chord... a very important cadence to work on.

[bossman]

Sorry man, the only chart I had on my computer was from the aebersold book. The changes are different than the ones I use, but it was close enough.

[Ancillo]

Jake,
thks a lot for the extensive reply and your nice explanation of the backdoor and the Bb melodic minor I can use.

I've been working on few tunes so far and I found the chords approach very powerful at this point in time especially since I don't have such a huge scalar vocabolary that I know.

I'll definitely follow up on your idea and work 1357(9,11,13) arpeggios around the fretboard to get some good strong notes to play with...

bossman, thks for the good analysis.
Can I ask you to extend a bit over the 2 t.t. subs (Eb7#11-D7#9) you mention? I'm a bit lost, I think they should come from A7 and Eb7..correct?

[bossman]

Well its just one tritone sub... i just made two arrows cause any time you have a dominant you can precede it with it's related ii chord, and anytime you have a ii-V you can reduce it to just the V. So instead of going Fmajor - Eb7 - Am7 - D7, you can simply leave out the Am7 and go straight to D7, making the Eb7 into a tritone sub.

So now, leaving out the Am7, we can tonicize the D7 with either A7 or Eb7, (or any number of other ways,) because A7 and Eb7 have the same tritone between the 3rd and 7th, which are the most important notes in any chord.

I don't even know if it is indeed a tritone sub, but it looks like one to me, with the #11 (an 'A') in there to keep the tonality of F major.

Listen to Jake or Ed, even if they say that everything I said was rubbish.

[Jakeweiser]

I Cannot seem to fall asleep so hopefully this will eat up the time until I can rest my little head

http://www.freejazzinstitute.org/uploads/20070607011625_Jake_Hanlon.jpg

Sorry for the slightly enlarged image.

These I feel are more accurate changes to the standard. While one might be able to omit ii chords, I don't think it is a general good practice to avoid them when looking at a tune analytically. The ii chord provides a very important harmonic function rather then just seeing all cadences as Dominant to Tonic.

The one thing Jazz Progressions tend to do in analysis on a more practical level is to generalize Modal Mixtures. While a 3 6 2 5 progression in F major should be A-7 D-7 G-7 C7, in Jazz we do away with the -7 on the 6 chord and make it domiant, borowing it from modal mixture to create more motion harmonically. When someone says play a 3 6 2 5 they mean iii VI ii V not iii vi ii V... thus I have labled them that way.

One major difference is my going to A-7 instead of Bossman's Fmajor chord after the first double bar. Typically you are going to want to avoid going to a I chord so often. The iii chord is a good way to dodge blatant use of the Tonic chord, especially on a tune such as this when you have a repeat of so much material in the 2nd half of the tune, going to iii as much as possible is a good idea, more interesting and just plane common.

The Eb7 chord in bars 2 and 17 can be either a Tritone Sub of A7 or they are a bVII dominant chord. I, in this instance am unsure as to it's function. It's obviously setting up a descending bass line by steps, which is a product of cycling Dominant Tritone subs. However, I had this discussion analysis's this tune in October with a very well respected scholar of the music who seemed very confident it was a bVII chord and I cannot remember for the life of me why he said it was that over the Sub. In most cases I agree with him and something tells my ears it is not intended to be an A7 chord, although you could use A7, Ab7 for 2 bars then G-7... it's all relative in the blowing.

Also, it should be noted this tune is very commonly performed in 2 keys (F in the first half, Ab in the 2nd half). I can say with confidence and through experience that being able to play and interchange between the keys you will learn this tune better AND it will make other people happy who like playing it in 2 keys but never get to because to many young players don't learn tunes via Functional Harmony rather then just memorizing chord names.

Other really interesting aspects of the tune to me is the melody over that B-7(b5) E7 leading back to the final cadence. The 11th is the melody note, and highest note of the melody. Really great melodic writing to use that pretty note up there, hold it and let it really sink in before it all comes back home in a nice neat package.

[bassist]

Jake-
a couple things (having never studied this tune... although i am familiar with it).
first... could you explain the chord in bar 3 better? i'm not quite sure i understand it. i see that it is approached by its dominant. i also see that it can be a tri-tone sub for D7. does that mean that bars 3 and 4 are just D7? or am i missing something? what do you have there in your analysis?... i'm not sure i understand what you wrote for that bar.
next... regarding your conversation with someone about the chord in bar 2... i see why they would argue for it being bVII according to the changes you have here. It is not a tri-tone sub here because it resolves by fifth. Tri-tone subs resolve by half step. While each kind of dominant can have unexpected resolutions, for sure, when you hear a dominant, you expect it to have one of those two resolutions, depending on what role it fills. If, though, you played a D7 in measure 3 (subbing for the Ab7)... we would hear bar 2 retroactively as having been a tri-tone sub for an A7.
dunno if you know anything about classical theory, but the dude you were arguing with may have. basically, a tri-tone sub is a "jazz word" for a german 6th, which functions in classical music by leading to the dominant (it is, same as in jazz, a dominant quality chord built a half step above the dominant or local dominant). you can't possibly see the Eb7 as a german 6th with the changes indicated below, so it clearly has a normal dominant function (bVII or V of Ab). that might be what they guy you were arguing with was thinking.

dan

[Jakeweiser]

Yes it seems that's probably what it is. Since I wrote all this out at like 3am I probably glanced over that German 6th stuff since I tend to not think about them even though I've spent my time with Harmony looking at it from a classical level, although not as much as I probably should have. The "Dude" happens to have a Masters in Music theory as well as a masters Jazz Studies and his PHd as well. So I tend to not argue with him on a knowledge basis since he's probably the smartest man I know.

As for the Ab7 chord, typically I hear a lot of people playing D7(#9#5) or some sort of altered dominant and then taking the alterations away. Which would basically be the Tritone Sub. Either way Ab7 and D7 are essentially in Jazz the same chord, especially if it resolves to some sort of tonic chord, at this point in the tune it's obvious that in bar 5 the tune is now in a different key after a very strong pull to G- from the Ab7 and D7 chord. Plus, in this instance it's an older type of sub to use Ab7 instead of A-7 as a sub chord, creates tension, releases to G-7 before finding it's way back to F.

[bassist]

out of curiosity... might people make the sub with an A- so that it'd be a ii V7 i or with A half dim. so that i'd be a proper minor ii V i? instead of the bII7 V7 i?
anyways... that aside, i guess part of what i'm having difficulty with is the harmonic rhythm in this tune. am i wrong in thinking that it is basically one chord per bar for 2 bars, and then 1 chord every 2 bars for 4 bars? starting in bar 7, there is clearly harmonic motion every bar for a little while.
thanks,
dan
p.s... if i wasn't just about to run off, and if i had the time... i bet listening might solve my questions better than asking them of you! but thanks for your help!

[BillGrahamMusic]

I play it as an A-7. So do Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett.

[bassist]

Bill Graham-
ah HAH!
okay... well now that i know that such a thing exists as a possibility, i have begun thinking about it and have some questions about the implications it carries with it.
with the 3rd bar as an A-7, i now better understand its relationship to measures 4 and 5 (clear as pie). i just no longer understand what is going on in measure 2 (if the version of the changes you play has a chord other than Eb7 in bar 2, let me know... as that will answer my questions, i think). if bar 3 is a chord built on Ab, Eb7 has a clear function... dominant of Ab. if bar 3 is a D7 (or Ab7 standing in for D7 as a tri-tone sub), then i understand what the Eb is doing... it's a tri-tone sub for the dominant of D.
but if measure 3 begins a ii V7 i to g minor... what is the Eb7 doing there? does it have a function in relationship to the Fmaj7? or does it somehow lead to a-? or to g minor? is it supposed to be something like this:
Fmaj7 | Bb-7 Eb7 | A-7 | D7 | G-7 |

because that falls back into territory that i understand. even without that Bb-7, is that sort of the role that the Eb7 is filling?

also... you say that you DO use the a-7 in measure 3 (as do bill evans and keith jarrett). is that a substitution that you make for the Ab7 on the spot? or is yours a different set of changes to the tune that simply has an a-7 there? if it is a substitution that you just throw in from time to time... i'm sure it presents all sorts of problems, being a half-step away from the chord you are subbing for. but it seems like a reasonable sub to make anyways because i understand why the Ab7 ought to function and i understand why the A-7 ought to function. i'm new to the concept of subs and just sort of wondering the implications a sub might have if/when one musician springs it on another. hope this question makes sense (and i understand it is not often an issue... just if subbing the Ab7 for an A-7 is a reasonable sub, it might be an issue).

thanks,
dan

[Jakeweiser]

I believe the important thing to realize is that there are far to many options on such a popular tune. Very few people have the same changes as is proven here. The A- is fine, and I wouldnt' see a problem with anyone playing it because its up to the player to hear it happening anyway. it would be a very "Stock" chord, and predictable. Which is why I prefer to use the Ab chord or a D7alt (same thing).

On a tune like this one you probably can find a dozen examples where the first 4 bars are played with different changes, even the slightest differences. You can go through the real books and find differences all over the tune. The real important part is that there is at least some sort of understanding of the key areas. You'll probably find in every tune the first 4 bars ending up to be.

Siting some Fake Books...

The Old Illegal books state FM7 - Eb7 - D7alt D7 - D7 - Gm - Bbm - Eb7
Colorado Book has FM7 - Eb7 - Am7 - D7 - Gm - Eb7 - Eb7
The Standards Real Book (a real good one) Has Both sets of changes along with a few other extra subs if you so desire. Including..

FM7 - Cm6/Eb - D7(b9b5) D9 - D9 - Gm7 - - Bbm6 - Eb9 - Am7 A7b9 - so on and so forth.

Anyway, lots of choices. If you really want something interesting to look at go and transcribe Monk's changes from 'Round Midnight, then go transcribe the changes that Miles used for the same tune, THEN go transcribe someone else doing it maybe 5 years after Miles' album and tell me about those changes. You might find that very interesting.

Tonic -> bVII Dom -> Some sort of Cadence leading to -> ii -> Subdominant Cadence to -> I or it's iii -> Cycle -> Minor Cycle to vi -> Cycle to V -> Cycle to I

How you get there can vary, and SHOULD vary. No one wants to hear the same changes every single chorus, that would be boring.

[Jakeweiser]

To bad this thread disappeared.

I said I would post my take on the tune

http://www.soundclick.com/util/downloadSong.cfm?ID=5826240&key=E49173FF-E

Those are with the changes I know. I'd like to hear other thoughts about this tune.

[guitarjazz]

and then..Bill Evans played the second half in Ab on the Affinity album.
I'll ask my friend that toured with Mancini for 20 years for the Mancini changes.

[Guy Hatton]

I'll ask my friend that toured with Mancini for 20 years for the Mancini changes.

You're not seriously suggesting going back to the source, are you? :)

[guitarjazz]

Here's what he sent me:
F | Cm6/Eb | D7(b5 b9) D9 | D9 |
Gm | Gm | Bbm | Bbm |
Am | Dm | Gm | Gm/F |
Em7-5 A9 | Dm7-5 G9 | Gm7 | C7 |
F | Cm6/Eb | D7(b5 b9) D9 | D9 |
Gm | Gm | Bbm | Bbm |
Am | Dm Dm/C | Bm7b5 | Bb9 |
Am Dm | Gm7 C11 | F |

[engelbach]

I mostly agree with Jake's changes from his June 7 post, except that I don't like the Ab7 in bar 3. I also think these are blowing changes and that Dm7 rather than D7#9 works better in the head.

I much prefer an Am7 or Am7b5 in bar 3, which links nicely to the D7 in bar 4. The harmonic rhythm I use is

FMaj | Eb13#11 | Am7b5 | Db7b9 |

[Egbert Souse]

Enough people around here play the second half modulated up a minor third that if they don't say "Do the Bill Evans thing" when they call the tune, it's a good idea to ask.

[Egbert Souse]

and then..Bill Evans played the second half in Ab on the Affinity album.
I'll ask my friend that toured with Mancini for 20 years for the Mancini changes.

Oops...didn't notice i was redundant until later.

Hey, if your friend is Royce Campbell, tell him Indianapolis said hey and for god's sake, watch out at Conner Prarie.

[Phil Kelly]

and then..Bill Evans played the second half in Ab on the Affinity album.
I'll ask my friend that toured with Mancini for 20 years for the Mancini changes.


This same trick works nicely on "Love walked In"

:cheers :cheers :cheers :cheers :cheers :cheers :

[Jakeweiser]

It could Happen to You is quite nice in 2 keys as well :D

[Phil Kelly]

It could Happen to You is quite nice in 2 keys as well :D

Jake:

very nice as well!

"Just Friends" is yet another one ..

BTW: Which chart did Riggs take a whack at?

I think "Limehaus Blews" was the last one I sent him.

( soon ..several more WEIRD ones will be en root for "beta testing"

:cheers :gavel: :cheers :gavel: :cheers :gavel:

[OnyaBirri]

...If you really want something interesting to look at go and transcribe Monk's changes from 'Round Midnight, then go transcribe the changes that Miles used for the same tune, THEN go transcribe someone else doing it maybe 5 years after Miles' album and tell me about those changes. You might find that very interesting...

Or, see if you can dig up a recording of "Round Midnight" by a semi-respected jazz artist who plays those godawful changes in the Real Book.

[Jakeweiser]

I'm trying to remember the name, it was a Standard, medium swing thing... I can't believe i don't remember it right now. I will check.

It was funny when he sat down and said "We got new Phill Charts!" and then Dave Richards said 'I talked to him on the weekend" and I thought to myself... I know phil, he's awesome. Small world.

I like it ven it shvings jah

[Bill Robinson]

My ear agrees with Jerry Engelbach that the 3rd chord is Amin7b5. You could leave it out and go FM7 to Eb9, then D9 for 2 measures.

[Dave Ferris]

short rubato version of W & R:

http://www.divshare.com/download/7401726-91e

[Mike A]

Nice, Dave!

[engelbach]

short rubato version of W & R:

http://www.divshare.com/download/7401726-91e
Good to see you back here, Dave.

[Dave Ferris]

short rubato version of W & R:

http://www.divshare.com/download/7401726-91e

Here's the Musak:
http://www.divshare.com/download/8961749-b0a
http://www.divshare.com/download/8961752-4f3

Enjoy......

[engelbach]

Here's the Musak:
http://www.divshare.com/download/8961749-b0a
http://www.divshare.com/download/8961752-4f3

Enjoy......
Lovely, Dave.

But when are you going to get a notation program? The only thing difficult about playing this stuff is reading the handwriting ...