Frank Zappa

[lazy bird]

Some of my friends are huge Zappa fans and they have put me on some Zappa stuff. I especially like Hot Rats, The Grand Wazoo and The Yellow Shark. What's your opinion about the importance of Frank Zappa for jazz and for 20th century music in general? Can you compare Zappa to other musicians/composers?

[Coypu]

I take strong offense when you at a JAZZ board talk about music that is more related to rock than jazz. :mad:

[lazy bird]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Coypu
I take strong offense when you at a JAZZ board talk about music that is more related to rock than jazz. :mad: [/QUOTE

Some of Zappa's projects are more related to jazz then rock: The Grand Wazoo for instance.

Zappa is mentioned in almost every book about the history of jazz I've read yet, thus I think I have the right to talk about Zappa on a jazz forum.

some examples:

The New Grove Dictionary of Jazz, Barry Kernfeld, The Macmillan Press Limited 1988 and 1994, page 1321

The History of Jazz, Ted Gioia, Oxford University Press 1997, page 355 and 377

The Oxford Companion to Jazz, Bill Kirchner, Oxford University Press 2000, page 505


But when most people on this board agree that Zappa is more related to rock then jazz and that therefore I'm not allowed to talk about him on this forum, I'll quit posting about Zappa.

[jazzypaul]

Lazy Bird,

as long as Make a Jazz Noise Here, Jazz From Hell, The Grand Wazoo and Hot Rats are all still in print, you can talk about Zappa until you're blue in the face. As long as I still have bootlegs of the Mothers going off on King Kong for 20 minutes at a shot, you can talk about Zappa until you're blue in the face. Zappa did a rather straight record with Jean-Luc Ponty. He's far more jazz than most jazz artists. The thing is, Zappa was a very distracted Jazz musician when it comes right down to it. So, Lazy Bird, again, talk about jazz all you want, and by association, talk about Zappa all you want.

Coypu, again, an instance where a history lesson is in order for you. Don't talk about that which you don't know. You don't know Mingus, you don't know Monk, you don't know Coltrane you don't know Zappa, and you don't know jazz. In the words of my favorite Blues guitarist of all time...Bo, you don't know Diddley.

[Coypu]

I was actually just joking with you guys...

Could anyone recomend Zappa's 3 best albums?

[3pointdeli]

i'd probably say my three favorite are:

uncle meat
hot rats
burnt weenie sandwich

but i like most of them up to "sheik yerbouti" (late '70s.) he gets hit-or-miss at that point, focusing a bit too much on technical expertise and not enough on quality music. also, i'd reccommend NOT getting "just another band from LA." that one sucks. it tries so hard to be funny that it's stupid, and not in a funny way.

i have no idea what the "best' are.

[Coypu]

I just downloaded 17 zappa albums (god bless Direct Connect) and Hot rats and burnt weenie sandwhich where in that pile. Sounds ok sofar, I do however feel like he wrote too much songs, maybe he should have choosen abit more quality rather than quantity?

[3pointdeli]

zappa is an artists whose material works best if you listen to whole albums rather than individual songs. context is important in his case. for example, if you listened to one song off of "we're only in it for the money" and then one song from "joe's garage" you would probably be confused and think the guy was just screwing around.

[3pointdeli]

how come every time i type "artist" (singular) it appears on the site as "artists" (plural)?

[jazzypaul]

probably because you put an "s" after "artist," but I could be wrong...

[3pointdeli]

maybe(s).

[lazy bird]

Originally posted by Coypu
I just downloaded 17 zappa albums (god bless Direct Connect) and Hot rats and burnt weenie sandwhich where in that pile. Sounds ok sofar, I do however feel like he wrote too much songs, maybe he should have choosen abit more quality rather than quantity?

You mentioned before that you like classical music.
Check some of Zappa's classical stuff.

Pierre Boulez conducted Zappa:
http://www.rykodisc.com/Catalog/dump/rykoalbums_535.asp

This record is even better than the Boulez cd:
http://www.science.uva.nl/~robbert/zappa/albums/The_Yellow_Shark/

[jazzypaul]

Well, Zappa's a strange cat all the way around. 4 of his albums that came out were all part of a massive project called Lather that Warner Bros. refused to put out together. So his late 70's output seems a little sketchy, but that's because it's completely out of context. And when you can wear as many hats as Zappa, you're not going to appeal to everyone. Let's look here for a second at all of the different people that Zappa really was...

Social Commentator
Political Activist
Stand-Up Comic
First Rate rock guitarist
classical composer
big-band arranger
talent scout
Doo-Wop Singer
monster improvisor on at least two instuments

and on top of that, he was still a dad with a wife (Zappa never got divorced. Do you realize what a rarity that makes him in the music world, regardless of genre?) and kids (two of whom became great musicians in their own right, and another two with enough charisma to not have to worry about names like Dweezil). He took time to rally against congress and was one of the only drug free musicians you will ever come across. His importance as a musician, composer, arranger, guitarist and all around good guy cannot be overstated.

If Gail Zappa reads this, I want a job at Barking Pumpkin.

[Coypu]

I never really got his humour, it seems abit goofy to me. Not exactly AC class on it.

lazy bird : I'm listening to the yellow shark, its good sofar atleast.

[3pointdeli]

i always thought zappa put out those records ("sleep dirt", "studio tan", "orchestral favorites"...and any others that make up the music that is now on "lather") as a quick way to get out of his contract with warner bros. it was pretty well known that zappa's relationship with warner had gone sour by the mid to late '70s (watch the "baby snakes" concert film to see evidence of this.) what i didn't know is that warner refused to put out "lather" in the way zappa wanted it released.

[jazzypaul]

Coypu, once again a situation where your non-American-ness is hurting your cause. If you don't get the humor, just stand in awe of his playing.

[D.D.]

The 3d edition of The Collected History & Improvisations Of Frank Zappa, revised and expanded, is out. This is probably the most accurate and informative book on FZ out there. Details: http://www.crossfirepublications.com/zappa.html

[gregk]

Anyone check out the new DVD-A release from zappa yet? I don't have a player but it should work on my dvd player, so I wonder what people here may think of it....
Zappa NOT jazz......what a joke!!!! Zappa's music is what introduced me to jazz in the 1st place

[BFrank]

Actually, I don't think that Zappa had anything to do with releasing "Sleep Dirt", "Studio Tan" and "Orchestral Favorites" at all. It was Warner's way of completing his contractual obligations since he wasn't cooperating. The original vinyl of those had virtually no liner notes at all.

As for "Another Band From LA", I was fortunate to have been at that concert and I must say that I didn't really enjoy it at the time. I don't know if it was the bad seats at the BACK of Pauley Pavilion, my buddy who didn't really like Zappa to begin with, or the performance itself. On the other hand, the album has grown on me over the years and I find that it has lots of great moments and is a really solid album after repeated listenings. Go figure.

My favorites would have to be "One Size Fits All", "Roxy and Elsewhere" and "Grand Wazoo" for overall coherence and quality. Pretty much all of the early Verve releases are just classics in their own right and deserve special attention.

It was mentioned earlier that his consistency dropped off after "Joe's Garage" - I would have to agree with that.

Overall, though, FZ was one of the few, true geniuses of rock-oriented music. There are no equals.

[D.D.]

Originally posted by gregk
Anyone check out the new DVD-A release from zappa yet? I don't have a player but it should work on my dvd player, so I wonder what people here may think of it....
Greg, I have it, and it's a bit of a disappointment.

If you heard the bootlegs you might know that Halloween '78 concerts were among the best FZ performances ever. The band was great with Vinnie on drums, two bassists - O'Hearn and Barrow, two excellent keyboardists + a special guest Shankar on violin. The performances were very improvisational with inspired solos from everybody. With a proper selection this could be one of the absolutely best FZ releases. You can find a detailed overview of the Halloween concets here: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/turtlestew/goblin.htm

However, ZFT, for whatever reasons, selected the standard teenage repertoir, that even FZ himself is apologetic about. So you get Dancin' Fool (2 times! - one is video from SNL), Yellow Snow, Dinah-Moe Humm, Muffin Man, Camarillo Brillo, Stink Foot - the songs that are performed the same way all the time with minimum variation (Stink Foot has a nice FZ solo), and will probably make any serious FZ fan puke at this point. Only several moments point at how great these shows actually were - tasty biting (but oh so short!) Shankar solo on Conehead, great FZ solo on Easy Meet...
There is ONE indispensible performance here, though - the opening majestic FZ solo (Ancient Armaments). There is also 17- minute Black Napkins/Deathless Horsie, which is interesting but not essential.

There are two bonus video tracks - one is aforementioned 'Dancin' Fool', the other one is slow and bluesy version of 'Suicide Champ' from '78 tour (black and white, mediocre sound quality) - it is way too monotone, although FZ solo is not bad.

I don't have DVD-A player so I can't enjoy the surround sound feature of the disc - from what I heard the sound quality is outstanding.

[RogerFarbey]

Gregk - absolutely! - If I hadn't heard Hot Rats I probably wouldn't have got into jazz so soon. Zappa is probably one of the greatest composers of the 20th Century - ok he wrote some pretty basic rock 'n' roll too, but much of his early and late stuff was without peer. How many other rock guys could have written 'We're only in it for the money' or 'The Yellow Shark' (Answer = 0). I hesitate to use the G word but I think Zappa was a genius. Also, I doubt there will be many other musicans who will be remembered in centuries to come. He had though a very equivocal view of jazz and dissed solos as 'jazz noodling', neverthless he did some fine noodling himself. He also employed lots of jazz musicians from Ponty to the Breckers.

p.s. Waka Jawaka was pretty jazzy too.

[D.D.]

Let's just hope the promissed 'Petit Wazoo' '72 recordings will be released this year - this would be a great display of Zappa's jazzier side...

[BFrank]

Pretty hard to argue with your statement about FZ being a "genius". I've thought that for many years. If only for the volume of unique and intricate music that he composed over the roughly 30 years that he was in the business.

[3pointdeli]

>>>Actually, I don't think that Zappa had anything to do with releasing "Sleep Dirt", "Studio Tan" and "Orchestral Favorites" at all. It was Warner's way of completing his contractual obligations since he wasn't cooperating. The original vinyl of those had virtually no liner notes at all.<<<

do you have more info on this, BFrank? i knew they were released to fulfill zappa's contract, but i've never heard that they were released without his input.

[BFrank]

[**Revised post**]

3pointdeli - Here's some info I pulled off of a FZ web site:
As far as I understand it, Sleep Dirt was one of the albums released by Warner Brothers while Frank had them in court for "aromatic fiscal practices" (i.e. shoddy accounting, overruns, etc.) and as such Zappa had very little to say about that release. Other albums in this category are Studio Tan and Orchestral Favorites.

I think the "packaging" (or lack of...) 'says' something, too. Frank usually had pretty well thought-out cover art and liners.

[3pointdeli]

did those three ever come out on cd? i have all but "studio tan" on vinyl, but i can't recall ever seeing them on cd. i know that some (or all) of that material is on the "Lather" cd...which i guess was zappa's original intent when he wrote the music.

[D.D.]

3pointdeli, 'Sleep Dirt' is available on CD and it is significantly different from the LP version (vocal & other overdubs), and I like it much better this way.
In general, everything you need to know about FZ vinyl vs. CD is available here: http://w1.858.telia.com/~u85821131/vinylvscds/index.html

[3pointdeli]

whoa, that's a great resource. i had no idea it existed. thanks for posting that.

[BFrank]

Yeah, that's a pretty amazing web site. That's where I got the info on those albums. LOTS of detail about intricacies of various releases of his albums.

[D.D.]

Just got FZ:OZ and it's OK as expected (Spring '76 was a pretty dull tour IMO).
I want Petit Wazoo!

[Bev Stapleton]

Well! This turns my musical preconceptions sideways.

Bought Rats, Waka and Wazoo earlier in the year. Enjoyed greatly. Thought I could detect the origins of much UK jazz rock there - the Canterbury things that I grew up on - Matching Mole, Hatfield and the North etc - and thought were home grown.

But I'm just listening to Uncle Meat for the first time and this is definately the source! Henry Cow are straight out of this record!

I'm flabbergasted!

[3pointdeli]

i wish i could hear those records again for the first time.

[Spike]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
i wish i could hear those records again for the first time.

Me too! I remember seeing Zappa live in a church in Grand Rapids, MI in '70 or '71 after those records first came out.

Spike

[boscohell]

Zappa was so original as not to be so easily qualified (composer,jazz,classic,rock,jazz-rock,etc).Many years before I saw a video recorded in Australia where he made improvise a whole orchestra using such a humour that you can't hardly not consider him a genius.
In such a discography you can find up and downs,but I would recommend Apostrophe-Overnight sensation as one of his best.For jazz fans there's plenty of George Duke,Jean Luc Ponty,Ian Underwood here.
Good luck and marry christmas from Argentina,for all you guys

[Darina]

Zappa is extraordinary. I got into him through Joe's Garage and still have quite a soft spot for it. Certainly there are weak moments but some of the numbers are really brilliant. Watermelon in Easter Hay is one of those superlative guitar moments but hardly anyone ever talks about this album...

[Bag's Groove]

lol...my first exposure to Zappa was my father singing ditties like "Don't Eat The Yellow Snow" on long car trips together when I was about 4 or 5, and constantly hearing "Big Swifty" from Waka Jawaka on the turntable in his studio. I'd be lying if I said that either of these examples had absolutely no influence on me.

Like most artists with a huge body of work, my favorite eras of his vary from time to time, but these are pretty much some of my favorite albums:

Uncle Meat
Hot Rats
Chunga's Revenge
Waka Jawaka
Overnight Sensation
On Size Fits All ("Aw Bobby, I'm sorry you got a head like a potato. I really am.")
Sheik Yerbouti

[wjd]

There are jazz cuts on "Uncle Meat", 'Burnt Weeny Sandwich", 'Weasels Ripped My Flesh", "Hot Rats", "Chungas Revenge". "Picantique", "Grand Wazoo" "Waka Jawaka". "Make A Jazz Noise Here." There are extended solos which are of high quality and would be of interest to many jazz lovers on "Roxy and Elsewhere" "Shut Up and Play Your Guitar", "Guitar", "Bongo Fury". Zappa was prolific and one could randomly pick out 30 of his albums and find little of interest to a jazz lover, but when he turned to jazz or improvised solos it was often of high quality.

[tkeables]

For another twist on Zappa's (somewhat twisted) music, check out:

The Ed Palermo Big Band Plays the Music of Frank Zappa
(1997, Astor Place)

You've never heard it like this before...