If the Democratic Primaries were all held today, who would you vote for? (6-Nov-2003)

[Rooster_Ties]

There have been lots of debates, including another one just this week ("Rock The Vote" on CNN).

If your state's Democratic Primary Election were being held today, who would you vote for???

And why???


( FYI, the latest national polls are HERE (http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04dem.htm), if that helps or hurts this discussion any. )

[Rooster_Ties]

Originally posted by Adam Lozo
It would be interesting to include Hillary Clinton in the poll.

Do very many people here really want her to run??

I think she gets all the poll numbers she does pretty much on name recognition alone, since well over 60% of Americans can't even name one of the 9 candidates that are actually running. :eek: :confused: :( :mad2:

But if people here want to go ahead and vote in this poll (from the choices above), and then ALSO "write in" Hillary's name (by posting her name to this thread), then go right ahead.

[Johnj]

Rooster Ties, sorry but I voted for Wesley Clark when, as an Englishman living in Tokyo, I really should have gone for the last option.

[bombastic]

Sharpton.

[clifton]

Howard Dean. His clear cut opposition to the Iraq War, and his intelligent positions on health care and the Bush tax cuts made him an attractive candidate months ago. Plus Dean doesn't pull his punches. I must admit I'm also impressed with Wesley Clark.

[bombastic]

Cliff, what about the "Stars and Bars" controversy now surrounding Dean? Do you think that flag is racist?

[clifton]

bombastic: the media have whipped up a phony controversy about what Dean actually said. At no point did he condone what the Confederate flag stood for. He said that Democrats have to reach white guys who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on them. His statement, in its entirety and in context, was a simple, easily understood message: the Democratic Party has to show Southern white guys that it can represent their best economic interests, which they happen to share with blacks and Hispanics. He has used that statement before black audiences and gotten applause. Try reading what he actually said. And yes, I happen to think the Confederate flag stands for racism. And treason, too.

[Rooster_Ties]

clifton's right, the other candidates and/or the media have really blown this whole confederate flag thing out of proportion. Dean's statement was clear (just as clifton described it), but others have distorted it.

There are things I like about Dean, and things I dislike.

By the way, I voted for Clark. Clark is my first choice, and Kerry's probably my second choice. Dean's my third.

[WestCoast Ghost]

Clark. He's a liberal, he's great on defense/security issues, he's smart, funny, and telegenic, and he can bring Repubs and independents over to the Dem side w/out selling out the party. I truly think the guy could end up being a JFK/FDR kind of president; whether he can beat Dean in the primaries is harder to say at this point. Dean's organization is so well-established at this point (and enthusiastic) that he's a formidable foe. My heart's w/Clark (and I still think he has a decent, fighting chance), but the odds are leaning Dean's way. And if that happens... Dean will fight much harder in the general election than Dukakis, Mondale, or McGovern did, but he may end up losing almost as badly. All Confederate flag remarks aside, he ain't gonna do nothin' in the South... he'll have to win nearly every Midwestern state and keep all of New England and the West Coast--a pretty tall order.

[bombastic]

I'd go with Nader if he ran. This country just doesn't get Nader, and it probably never will. They need a big, thickheaded cowboy like reagan or bush 1 or 2, A dumb "duke" wayne, without a clue. :confused: :confused: :confused:

[todda]

Nader's a two bit phony and a media hound. That might make him qualified to run for office, but he'll never get my vote. Progressives keep latching on to some of the sleaziest insiders. Kucinich is the only guy I've heard that has impressed me. Unfortunately, he's pretty much dead last in every poll I've seen and probably won't survive Iowa and New Hampshire. Clarke's an interesting guy, but reading what some of his former military colleagues have said about him doesn't sound too promising. Still, he's actually fought in the military, has more than a rudimentary understanding of strategy, and would probably do better than the military geniuses of Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.

At this time, I'd have to say Howard Dean is the best chance the Democratic party has at defeating Bush, and that does not bode well. Bush is going to win by a landslide.

[bombastic]

Well Todda-I certainly hope for all of our collective well being in the coming years that you are wrong in this matter. If the head is sick, the whole body will be sick.

[todda]

I hope I'm wrong too, bombastic, but the Democratic Party is going out of its way to lose this election.

[KolumBUZZ]

She has no chance, but I have been nothing but impressed with Carol Moseley-Braun and feel that nothing would be healthier for this country than to have a strong black female as our president.

Alpha male syndrome here is out of control. We need a warm and intelligent mother figure to get everyone back in balance.

[KolumBUZZ]

That said, as far as what the most electable proposition would be, I'm going against the grain here also in saying that Dick Gephardt would be a stronger candidate vs. Bush than Howard Dean.

Gephardt can fool a lot of middle America into thinking he really shares their backward values, whereas Dean will have trouble hiding his contempt. He already comes across as a little cocky and smug and he has yet to try to appeal beyond the democratic base.

A Gephardt-Clark ticket would be a knockout though IMHO. I could also see Gephardt running with Joe Biden or Christopher Dodd, my two favorite senators.

[clifton]

Howard Dean is pissed off, and I think that's an asset. There are millions and millions of disaffected people in his country who are angry about the direction this country has taken under Bush. The overall timidity of the Democrats has made these Americans even angrier, and thus far, only Dean has given voice to the substantial anti-Bush sentiment in this country. The corporate media want you to think Bush is popular, but he's really not. Dean's pugnacity is his strength, and if he raises enough money, he's got a very good shot at winning. The ticket is probably going to be Dean-Clark, possibly Clark-Dean. BTW Mosely-Braun's history is pretty unsavory. Before she ran for U.S. Senate, she was a party hack in the Chicago Democratic machine. And Nader? His run in 2000 was incredibly damaging to the United States. The American left, by embracing Nader to the extent they did, gave the election to Bush. I voted for Gore. The name of the game is winning, then building progressive coalitions over the long haul. Stupid stands on lofty but arrogant "principle" have made the American left look self-serving and idiotic. Me, I'm a pragmatic liberal. End of rant. Go,Democrats!

[Edward]

I have to agree with just about everything that Clifton stated. I would much prefer a Clark-Dean ticket to a Dean-Clark one, though.

I remember talking to a fellow pragmatic Democrat after the 2002 elections, and we both came to the same conclusion: Democratic politicians tend to be too nice for their own good. Meanwhile, Republicans often get away with murder. I wish that more Democratic politicians were as vocal as Congressman Barney Frank.

[Rooster_Ties]

Whatever happens - I want Clark on the ticket. Either in the #1 slot, or as #1's choice for V.P. - Clark needs to be in this race.

I don't think Dean can win this election, but I think a Dean-Clark ticket would stand a much better chance of winning, than Dean and somebody else besides Clark as the Veep.

[bombastic]

Sharpton blasted Dean on a CNN "Rock The Vote" debate today for his "Rebel Flag" comments, but Dean stood firm about what he said. Sharpton thinks Dean should admit he was wrong. Shapton is no dummy, he just needs to tone down his style. Everyone gets stereotyped. The other fellows comment about a mother figure president is no joke. We've had "Thick Cowboys" in office far too long, and nothing of any value has come of it.

[clifton]

Al Sharpton is the best, and wittiest, speaker in the field. He's also got a very shady past. He was a primary architect of the Tawana Brawley scandal in the 1980's. He was an FBI informant. He's been indicted a number of times for tax evasion, although he's never been convicted. These facts are easy enough to find. Selecting a candidate involves a lot more than being seduced by oratory. It involves critical thinking as well.

[bombastic]

Current Newsweek Poll-50% of those polled say No on Bush. 44% say Yes. 6% Undecided.

[todda]

Originally posted by KolumBUZZ
Gephardt can fool a lot of middle America into thinking he really shares their backward values, whereas Dean will have trouble hiding his contempt. He already comes across as a little cocky and smug and he has yet to try to appeal beyond the democratic base.


I'm not sure how I'm supposed to read that. Middle America is where grassroots progressive politics work. Plus, let's all keep in mind that Vermont is an agricultural state. Just like Iowa. From where I stand, there ain't a heck of a lot of difference between a farmer in Vermont and a farmer in Iowa.

[bombastic]

I sense the same hostility in Dean. He seems like he might be a ticking time bomb. Maybe not a cool guy to have access to "The Button". :eek:

[clifton]

bombastic, I'd like you to explain to the rest of this board how a successful five term governor could be a "ticking time bomb". Truman, Nixon, LBJ, and Clinton all have been described as having a hot temper, and guess what. None of them pushed the button. What evidence do you have to support the wild assertion you made? Incidentally, Dean apologized for whatever offense was taken from his "Confederate flag" remark, a true tempest in a teapot. BTW if you want to support a more liberal candidate than Dean, I recommend Kucinich, who I deeply admire. He's one of the most principled people in politics. So why don't I support him as my first choice? Because believe it or not, I want to win, and I think Dean can win.

[bombastic]

Cliff-He does seem like a hot-tempered guy. Of course I don't think he would literally "push the button". If he runs against "Shrub", he'll get my vote, as the Independent will not have a snowballs chance in hell. I was just making an observation, with a little humor on the side.

[jav]

My vote went to Dennis Kucinich, even though he does not have a prayer. Why? He is way too liberal and makes too much sense! In a once in a lifetime occurence, I agree with every position he has taken thus far that I am aware of. Unfortunately he will likely get about the same percentage of support as jazz in the current cd marketplace-2%. jav

[jazzypaul]

Strangely, considering my rather libertarian stance on most things, I find myself really liking Dean. (1) He's a social libertarian, (2) the republicans' economic policies are not working, and (3) he's actually far more moderate than he's letting on. If we can get back to the partisan congress/white house split that helped to make Clinton's presidency so great (face it, he didn't do too much in his first 2 years in office), I think that America could have some good years ahead of it.

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed...

[Spike]

I'm with Dean for four reasons: (1) he has touched a nerve with intensely anti-Bush Democrats that is creating excitement, which is essential to winning; (2) Dean is far more moderate than recognized, which will allow him to move to the political center after the primaries; and (3) he is the first candidate to effectively use the internet as a tool to organize and raise $$$, which will give him a chance to compete with Bush on getting the message out; and (4) even if he loses the general, it would be better for the future of the Democratic Party to lose with a candidate who stands for something than a namby-pamby like Kerry, Gephardt or Lieberman.

Spike

[clifton]

I'm with Dean even though I'm more liberal than he is. Dean talks common sense on taxes, he was way ahead of everybody on Iraq (except Kucinich), and he's got passion. He's smart, he's capable, he's got integrity, and he's got people fired up. Liberals need to realize that being a principled loser sucks. Being a principled loser means you voted for Nader in 2000, stood silent while Bush stole Florida, and gave us Dubya. I'm for Dean because I want to win.

[Spike]

Originally posted by clifton
I'm with Dean even though I'm more liberal than he is. Dean talks common sense on taxes, he was way ahead of everybody on Iraq (except Kucinich), and he's got passion. He's smart, he's capable, he's got integrity, and he's got people fired up. Liberals need to realize that being a principled loser sucks. Being a principled loser means you voted for Nader in 2000, stood silent while Bush stole Florida, and gave us Dubya. I'm for Dean because I want to win.

Let me explain myself further. I agree entirely about Nader. And as my first three points indicate, I think Dean has the best chance to win among the Democrats. But having said that, if Bush is destined to squeak by in '04 because of an improving economy, then I'd rather the losing candidate be a principled fighter who begins to set a future path for the party than an Al Gore who left people confused about what he stood for.

Spike

[alsa]

Oh my gosh, this board is overrun with liberals too? I thought jazz lovers would display SOME diversity of ideas..

[nkipa]

Originally posted by clifton
Liberals need to realize that being a principled loser sucks. Being a principled loser means you voted for Nader in 2000, stood silent while Bush stole Florida, and gave us Dubya. I'm for Dean because I want to win.

Oddly enough, the same reasons I'm voting for Clark, a far stronger candidate against Bush. I'll vote for Dean if he's the nominee, but he has major weaknesses: a hothead who talks before he thinks, incapable of winning a single southern state, no foreign policy experience. We should take notice when Karl Rove says he prefers Dean to run against. On the other hand, I'll bet they fear Clark the most. Nice to see he's leading at the moment in our little poll.

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by alsa
Oh my gosh, this board is overrun with liberals too? I thought jazz lovers would display SOME diversity of ideas..

This is what is great about this board, none of us fit into anyones little prescribed mold!