backdoor ii V

[bassist]

hey everyone...
i'm looking for a few words on backdoor ii V progressions. i'm learning "I Got it Bad and That Ain't Good" this week (tune number 3 of 65 for those of you who are following my recent goal i set for myself of learning 65 tunes from memory before i graduate college), and in the bridge, there is a backdoor ii V. i can't find anything about them in Levine's Jazz Theory Book... i know that it is supposed to be an embellishment of a plagal cadence... so, Cmaj7 F7 Gmaj7 is an embellishment of Cmaj7 Gmaj7... but can anyone tell me more stuff about it than that? i am particularly looking for two different explanations: 1) a rigorous technical music theory explanation of the concept and 2) a "this is how i look at it" explanation (i.e.. how are YOU able to make sense of it?).
thanks a lot for anything you can tell me about these!
(also, if you know where it is in Levine's book, let me know... it's possible i am looking in the wrong spot!)

thanks again!
dan

[EdByrne]

hey everyone...
i'm looking for a few words on backdoor ii V progressions. i'm learning "I Got it Bad and That Ain't Good" this week (tune number 3 of 65 for those of you who are following my recent goal i set for myself of learning 65 tunes from memory before i graduate college), and in the bridge, there is a backdoor ii V. i can't find anything about them in Levine's Jazz Theory Book... i know that it is supposed to be an embellishment of a plagal cadence... so, Cmaj7 F7 Gmaj7 is an embellishment of Cmaj7 Gmaj7... but can anyone tell me more stuff about it than that? i am particularly looking for two different explanations: 1) a rigorous technical music theory explanation of the concept and 2) a "this is how i look at it" explanation (i.e.. how are YOU able to make sense of it?).
thanks a lot for anything you can tell me about these!
(also, if you know where it is in Levine's book, let me know... it's possible i am looking in the wrong spot!)

thanks again!
dan

// IVMA7 SD/ IVMA7 SD/ iv7 SDM/ bVII7 Blue SDm/ ii7 of ii7, V7 of ii7 / ii7 / V7 //

The tune never modulates from the primary key (G Major).
The Bridge begins on the Subdominant chord (IV), then to Subdominant Minor (iv), to bVII, which is a blues Subdominant chord, to IMA7, to a secondary cadence (2-5 of 2 in G).

Any questions? I don't recognize the term, "backdoor." ("A rose by any other name . . . ")

[guitarjazz]

I've heard the term 'back-cycling' before. The Blues for Alice changes (first four bars)would be an example of this.

[bassist]

sorry for being unclear... i have heard of a IV bVII7 I being referred to as a "backdoor ii V I" or "subdominant ii V I" and thought that was common parlance... i guess not though.
okay... so, given that little bit of terminology... can someone explain to me how a IV bVII7 I is functional?

thanks!
dan

[guitarjazz]

On page 228 of the Levine book there is a short discussion of the Blues for Alice changes.

[Phil Kelly]

/The Bridge begins on the Subdominant chord (IV), then to Subdominant Minor (iv), to bVII, which is a blues Subdominant chord, to IMA7, to a secondary cadence (2-5 of 2 in G).

Any questions? I don't recognize the term, "backdoor." ("A rose by any other name . . . ")

I'm a bit confused:

where you go back to 1 MA7 ( after the blue SD chord ), isn't there 2 beats of a IV MA 7 ( CMA& )
leading to III mi 7 > VI 9 > ( Bmi 7 -E9 ) 11 mi 11 > V13 ( Ami 11 -D9 )..?

in udder woids, a II V of II ,then V ?

BTW: I've never heard of a "back door" whatever either ..

[guitarjazz]

sorry for being unclear... i have heard of a IV bVII7 I being referred to as a "backdoor ii V I" or "subdominant ii V I" and thought that was common parlance... i guess not though.
okay... so, given that little bit of terminology... can someone explain to me how a IV bVII7 I is functional?

thanks!
dan
The bVII(expanded to IVmin-bVII) would be a minor third substitution of the ii-V7.

[EdByrne]

I'm a bit confused:

where you go back to 1 MA7 ( after the blue SD chord ), isn't there 2 beats of a IV MA 7 ( CMA& )
leading to III mi 7 > VI 9 > ( Bmi 7 -E9 ) 11 mi 11 > V13 ( Ami 11 -D9 )..?

in udder woids, a II V of II ,then V ?

BTW: I've never heard of a "back door" whatever either ..

I'm sure you're right, Phil. I'm just referring to the RB changes.

[EdByrne]

sorry for being unclear... i have heard of a IV bVII7 I being referred to as a "backdoor ii V I" or "subdominant ii V I" and thought that was common parlance... i guess not though.
okay... so, given that little bit of terminology... can someone explain to me how a IV bVII7 I is functional?

thanks!
dan

While cadences most frequently progress from SD to D, and then resolve to T, this is a form of Plagal cadence: SD to T (active to at rest, rather than active to most active to at rest). The ii, IV and bVII chords are considered to be SD in function, since they each contain one or more of 2, 4, 6, and b7. Modern theorists consider b7 to be SD in spite of the fact that it is chromatic to the key. b7 also is a blue note, of course.

[bassist]

The bVII(expanded to IVmin-bVII) would be a minor third substitution of the ii-V7.

hmmmmmm... that is interesting, but i'm not sure that is the explanation i'm looking for. this is a duke ellington tune, eh? when duke was writing, it wasn't yet commonplace to sub things out by thirds (not to mention that, at least from the changes i'm looking at, it isn't a IVmin-bVII, it is a IVmaj-bVII... so that means that it is a minor third substitution of the IImaj-V7... which in-and-of-itself is a fairly odd set of changes to be subbing).

i guess what i'm wondering is... can someone explain the IVmaj - bVII7 - Imaj in terms of like classical harmony?

dan

[EdByrne]

The Cm F7 could also be thought of as a Sub V7 of VI7 (E7: V7 of ii7)--with its related ii (Cm), which as a cadential unit resolves down indirectly to Bm7 E7.

[guitarjazz]

hmmmmmm... that is interesting, but i'm not sure that is the explanation i'm looking for. this is a duke ellington tune, eh? when duke was writing, it wasn't yet commonplace to sub things out by thirds (not to mention that, at least from the changes i'm looking at, it isn't a IVmin-bVII, it is a IVmaj-bVII... so that means that it is a minor third substitution of the IImaj-V7... which in-and-of-itself is a fairly odd set of changes to be subbing).

i guess what i'm wondering is... can someone explain the IVmaj - bVII7 - Imaj in terms of like classical harmony?

dan

The bVII might be thought of as a 'borrowed' chord from the parallel minor key.
Back to the jazzer street version...the bVII is a minor third above the V. When writing a tune or blowing on changes, and comping there is a lot of interchangability between the two. They share the same dim(1/2-whole) scale for instance.
I'd go into the Lydian Chromatic version but that seems to be deemed musical heresy on these forums. There may be multiple ways of looking at the same thing. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise!

[bassist]

The bVII might be thought of as a 'borrowed' chord from the parallel minor key.
Back to the jazzer street version...the bVII is a minor third above the V. When writing a tune or blowing on changes, and comping there is a lot of interchangability between the two. They share the same dim(1/2-whole) scale for instance.
I'd go into the Lydian Chromatic version but that seems to be deemed musical heresy on these forums. There may be multiple ways of looking at the same thing. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise!

gotcha now on the minor third sub. i was thinking of coltrane changes, when you said subbing by thirds... but i'm with you now.
thanks,
dan

[thedwork]

The bVII might be thought of as a 'borrowed' chord from the parallel minor key.
Back to the jazzer street version...

i thought that was the 'jazzer' version ~pimp:



There may be multiple ways of looking at the same thing. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise!(emphasis mine)

i agree w/ that, except i'd replace may be with are always - yet another substitution... :light:


by the way bassist - i've heard the term 'backdoor' before...

[bossman]

yup around these parts its called a back door progression. I just kind of think of it as tonicizing the borrowed-from-minor III chord with a deceptive resolution.

It probably has something to do with the fact that a dominant chord can resolve down a 5th, or down a 3rd or up a tone (to the iii and vi chords respectively, the other tonic area chords besides I.)

[bassist]

yup around these parts its called a back door progression. I just kind of think of it as tonicizing the borrowed-from-minor III chord with a deceptive resolution.

It probably has something to do with the fact that a dominant chord can resolve down a 5th, or down a 3rd or up a tone (to the iii and vi chords respectively, the other tonic area chords besides I.)

yeah... i think the explanation of this being a cadence to Bb gone deceptive is one that i have difficulty with. to my ears, it doesn't sound like a deceptive cadence at all! in fact, if i DO resolve it to Bb, it sounds wrong!
part of this is the fact that the C chord is major, not minor. but i dunno...
anyways... thanks as well for your help on this... with all of these different things said about it, it is starting to become more clear!
dan

[bossman]

yeah... i think the explanation of this being a cadence to Bb gone deceptive is one that i have difficulty with. to my ears, it doesn't sound like a deceptive cadence at all! in fact, if i DO resolve it to Bb, it sounds wrong!
part of this is the fact that the C chord is major, not minor. but i dunno...
anyways... thanks as well for your help on this... with all of these different things said about it, it is starting to become more clear!
dan

oh shit I didn't realize it was IVmaj7. I only really know about ivm7-bVII7-Imaj7, like Yardbird Suite in the first couple bars.

[guitarjazz]

The term 'backdoor' reminds me of the UK book A New Guide To Harmony With Lego Bricks by Conrad Cork. It reads a bit like 'Monty Python teaches jazz' but it has all kinds of novel terms to describe common cadences. Good stuff!
http://www.jazzwise.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=862

[Mike A]

There's a great discussion of this in Marc Sabatella's book, "The Harmonic Language of Jazz Standards," pp. 40-41, www.outsideshore.com/school/music/harmonic/summary.htm
Here are some excerpts:

"In classical harmony, it is common to speak of borrowed chords, which are chords that are not diatonic to the current key but are diatonic to a minor key built on the same tonic. For example, an Ebmaj7 chord is not diatonic to the key of C major but it is diatonic to the key of C minor, often called the parallel minor. . . . There is really only one situation where I find it necessary to think in terms of borrowing chords from the parallel minor, and that is when we see a minor iv chord in a major key progression. This almost always occurs in the context of a iv—I progression, which is sometimes called a minor plagal cadence. This resolution tendency can be stated as a guideline: The iv chord can substitute for the IV chord in a IV—I progression.
...
"Minor plagal cadences may be used in this simple form, but there is a very special application of this idea that is often used instead. . . .[W]e often find bVII7 chords in the middle of what we would otherwise recognize as minor plagal cadences. For example, the minor plagal cadence shown above might also be found as: IV—iv—bVII—I

"Furthermore, we can, if we wish, think of the bVII7 chord as a kind of substitute for iv . . . .. After all, the iv chord can be seen as the upper extension of a bVII9 chord.

"If we accept this, then it should not surprise us to encounter a minor plagal cadence in which the bVII7 actually replaces the iv chord: IV—bVII—I.
. . .
"When the bVII chord is used as part of a minor plagal cadence, it is sometimes called a backdoor dominant, because it is a dominant seventh chord that resolves to the tonic but is not using the ordinary circle of fifths resolution. Instead it resolves through a “back door” upward by whole step."

[JoeNovice]

I was introduced to the "backdoor" sub by an OLD jazz guy. He's real big on the historical perspectives of jazz theory and always has a weird name for things; backdoor dominate, Montgomery-ward bridge, flat-V endings, etc.

I've come to view it a few different ways.

1) It's the borrowed-iv chord coupled with it's V
2) It's ii-V going to bIII (bIII subs for a minor tonic)
3) The SD is functioning as iv RMM and bVII is functioning as it's Lydian-dominate mode

I like the last one. I hear the backdoor dominate as being a 7b5 chord. For me, it helps the resolution into the tonic a whole step above. This happens in Stella (Ab7b5 going to Bbmaj7)

[bassist]

There's a great discussion of this in Marc Sabatella's book, "The Harmonic Language of Jazz Standards," pp. 40-41, www.outsideshore.com/school/music/harmonic/summary.htm
Here are some excerpts:

"In classical harmony, it is common to speak of borrowed chords, which are chords that are not diatonic to the current key but are diatonic to a minor key built on the same tonic. For example, an Ebmaj7 chord is not diatonic to the key of C major but it is diatonic to the key of C minor, often called the parallel minor. . . . There is really only one situation where I find it necessary to think in terms of borrowing chords from the parallel minor, and that is when we see a minor iv chord in a major key progression. This almost always occurs in the context of a iv—I progression, which is sometimes called a minor plagal cadence. This resolution tendency can be stated as a guideline: The iv chord can substitute for the IV chord in a IV—I progression.
...
"Minor plagal cadences may be used in this simple form, but there is a very special application of this idea that is often used instead. . . .[W]e often find bVII7 chords in the middle of what we would otherwise recognize as minor plagal cadences. For example, the minor plagal cadence shown above might also be found as: IV—iv—bVII—I

"Furthermore, we can, if we wish, think of the bVII7 chord as a kind of substitute for iv . . . .. After all, the iv chord can be seen as the upper extension of a bVII9 chord.

"If we accept this, then it should not surprise us to encounter a minor plagal cadence in which the bVII7 actually replaces the iv chord: IV—bVII—I.
. . .
"When the bVII chord is used as part of a minor plagal cadence, it is sometimes called a backdoor dominant, because it is a dominant seventh chord that resolves to the tonic but is not using the ordinary circle of fifths resolution. Instead it resolves through a “back door” upward by whole step."

thanks a lot for this! this provides a really clear progression of how to think about this.
on a side note, he seems to be WAY over simplifying "modal mixture" (or borrowed chords, as he refers to them...). he says there is "really only one situation" where he finds this necessary... at least in classical theory, it is common to borrow the half-dim supertonic from the minor, and the fully-diminished L.T. 7th chord from the minor. i know that this all comes from using the lowered 6th scale degree... so it's definitely all related.

but yeah, other than that, his explanation definitely flies for me. thanks again!
dan

[Mike A]

on a side note, he seems to be WAY over simplifying "modal mixture" (or borrowed chords, as he refers to them...). he says there is "really only one situation" where he finds this necessary... at least in classical theory, it is common to borrow the half-dim supertonic from the minor, and the fully-diminished L.T. 7th chord from the minor. i know that this all comes from using the lowered 6th scale degree... so it's definitely all related.

Keep in mind that his discussion was focused specifically on the context of jazz standards, not classical. Here's what I left out in the ellipses before "There is really only one situation ..." He said: "There are seven possible chords one can borrow from the parallel minor - one for each degree of the scale. However, I find that this is not normally a useful way of thinking about chords, because when these chords appear in a progression, there is almost always a better way of explaining their presence. There is really only one situation where I find it necessary to think in terms of borrowing chords from the parallel minor ..."

[bassist]

Keep in mind that his discussion was focused specifically on the context of jazz standards, not classical. Here's what I left out in the ellipses before "There is really only one situation ..." He said: "There are seven possible chords one can borrow from the parallel minor - one for each degree of the scale. However, I find that this is not normally a useful way of thinking about chords, because when these chords appear in a progression, there is almost always a better way of explaining their presence. There is really only one situation where I find it necessary to think in terms of borrowing chords from the parallel minor ..."

gotcha... and thanks for this!
dan

[engelbach]

I dunno if it's appropriate to introduce alternate changes here, but I'll risk censure.

I like the bass progression in the bridge of I Got It Bad using (in G):
C6 | Am7 | F#m7b5 | B7b9 (or F13) | Em7 | A7 | Am7 | D7 |

[bassist]

I dunno if it's appropriate to introduce alternate changes here, but I'll risk censure.

I like the bass progression in the bridge of I Got It Bad using (in G):
C6 | Am7 | F#m7b5 | B7b9 (or F13) | Em7 | A7 | Am7 | D7 |


thanks a lot for this!
i will definitely check it out tonight!
dan

[edrowland]

Or the pragmatic approach: it's a common enough cadence that it deserves study in its own right. I've never really found a satisfactory theoretical explanation of what it is. But, it occurs often enough that I consider it to be a harmonic cliche.

Personally, my approach to that change is that it's not a substution at all: it's a legitimate full-blown cadence in it's own right. Functionally, that seems to make sense: leading tones are (for Bb7->Cmaj) are F->E (semi-tone leading note toward the 3rd), and Bb->C (kind of like a bluesy leading tone to the tonic. And it's the motion of those two leading notes that gives a strong sense of resolution; and it's the bluesiness of that Bb->C leading tone that gives the change its flavor.

Alternately, there's an E->E leading tone if you take it as Bb7#11/lydian dominant. In my experience, VIIb7 safely and reliably takes VIIb7#11 (Bb lydian dominant), so the E->E leading tone is usually there if you want it.

Right or wrong, from a classical theoretical standpoint, that gives me enough of a theoretical hook to welcome that particular progression rather than dread it. And that's really the whole point of theory, isn't it?

But the "borrowed from parallel minor" concept sounds interesting. I think I might take that idea out for a spin and see how it flies. The immediate concern to me would be whether E natural is IN the mode for Bb7 as VIIb7. If it isn't, then it seems odd (to say the least) to consider the chord as borrowed from Cm. <wishing I had a guitar at hand to try that out>

[edrowland]

Thinking about this afterwards, I remember that, when I was taught this (it shows up in Naima, as I recall, and I hadn't yet recognized it as a cliche), I was taught that it had something to do with shifting to a relative iv-minor key-center. And the IIVb7 *is* in the relative iv-jazz-minor keycenter (if you play the #11). Unfortunately, I never got around to learning what was special about iv-minor key center. Maybe somebody could hang something on that. I'm afraid I can't.

But it definitely reinforces my belief that the VIIb7 is not (in many cases at least) related to the parallel minor key center. I guess it all pivots around whether it's natural 11 or sharp 11 that belongs in the mode.

[JoeNovice]

Thinking about this afterwards, I remember that, when I was taught this (it shows up in Naima, as I recall, and I hadn't yet recognized it as a cliche), I was taught that it had something to do with shifting to a relative iv-minor key-center. And the IIVb7 *is* in the relative iv-jazz-minor keycenter (if you play the #11). Unfortunately, I never got around to learning what was special about iv-minor key center. Maybe somebody could hang something on that. I'm afraid I can't.

But it definitely reinforces my belief that the VIIb7 is not (in many cases at least) related to the parallel minor key center. I guess it all pivots around whether it's natural 11 or sharp 11 that belongs in the mode.

Yep... that's what I was saying earlier.

You see the 7#11 in Stella. That's the only way my ear likes the backdoor 7 chord is "lydian dominate." It give a better voice leading into tonic.

[cillit bang]

"Furthermore, we can, if we wish, think of the bVII7 chord as a kind of substitute for iv . . . .. After all, the iv chord can be seen as the upper extension of a bVII9 chord.

"If we accept this, then it should not surprise us to encounter a minor plagal cadence in which the bVII7 actually replaces the iv chord: IV—bVII—I.
. . .
"When the bVII chord is used as part of a minor plagal cadence, it is sometimes called a backdoor dominant, because it is a dominant seventh chord that resolves to the tonic but is not using the ordinary circle of fifths resolution. Instead it resolves through a “back door” upward by whole step."
---------------------------------
I like the way this guy thinks ....... it's clicked

another eg.
My Romance (in Bb) at the top of the B section goes

/ Ebmaj7 Ab13 / Bb Maj7 / etc

It can be seen as a minor plagal cadance to Bb (ie the Ab13 subs for Eb min 6)

Many many thanks , Jem

[Phil Kelly]

---------------------------------
another eg.
My Romance (in Bb) at the top of the B section goes

/ Ebmaj7 Ab13 / Bb Maj7 / etc

It can be seen as a minor plagal cadance to Bb (ie the Ab13 subs for Eb min 6)

Many many thanks , Jem

Anther song where the bVII 7 works well is in Lalo Schrifrins "In the Heat of the Night" theme.

[alijamieson]

hello all

i've read about the backdoor progression, it's in my chord book [advanced chord book by askold buk] which simply states it is what everyone else has mentioned here, iv bVIIx I
what interesting is, that, if if were C- Fx Gmaj, and you subbed the Fx for it tt (B alt for instance) then thatleads nicely to E- which is obv the vi of Gmaj, so you can get a

C- Fx [B Alt] E- Gmaj [key]

V I Bb
V I E-
vi I G
which is symmetrical, a modulation into Db would complete the cycle! [perhaps C-, B Alt, E-, A-, D- Dbx Cmaj?]

just my 2 cents

Ali

[JonR]

Can I just mention "Midnight at the Oasis", which (coming from a pop/rock rather than jazz background) was the first time I encountered this "backdoor" sequence:
|Cmaj7 / / / |F / Bb9 / |Cmaj7...

I was struck by the neat way it made a 3-note chromatic fall to Cmaj7: Ab>G, C>B, F>E.
In this case, I guess, it acts like a minor iv. The F is clearly major (not the Fm7 you might find in jazz sequences), and the Bb9 would still be lydian dominant - related to Fm(maj7) and Fm6, IOW. So an E natural is common to all 3 chords.

I admit I haven't read this thread thoroughly - :rolleyes: - but i take it this is different (if subtly) from the Fm7-Bb7 sequence you might find in a jazz tune? (In that case, I like JoeNovice's interpretation (2): as a ii-V of Eb, the relative major of the parallel minor.)

[JoeNovice]

It's been a while since I looked at this topic and everyone's comments.....

Did anyone mention the diminished conversion relationship a la Pat Martino.

F7 is also a dominate chord built from D7 diminished substitutions;

D7 can be subed with Ebo, F#o, Ao, and Co. All of these chords can be other dominate chords by lowering one note.

F#o7 lower F# becomes F7 (B.D. sub)
Ao7 lower A becomes Ab7 (T.T. sub)
Co7 lower to B7 (T.T. for B.D.)

It's all related......

[JonR]

Can I just point out it's "dominant", not "dominate"... ;)

[JoeNovice]

Can I just point out it's "dominant", not "dominate"... ;)

So right.... spelling usually not a priority for my forum posts. I'll try to do better. Then again, if I could spell better you wouldn't have as much to contribute.

:lol:

Once again I live up to my name.

[engelbach]

Anther song where the bVII 7 works well is in Lalo Schrifrins "In the Heat of the Night" theme.

… and it's the final cadence to Dizzy's Groovin' High:

| Abm7 - Db7 - | EbM --- |

… where the iv7-bVII7 is an obvious substitute for a V7b9, as the latter also fits the melody.

I find this cadence kind of mischievous, because it feels like it's going to go somewhere else.

I never heard the term "back door," either. I like it: it's good shorthand terminology.

"Schrifrin," Phil? Hitting the old brew?

[Jeff Brent]

In modes, the three strongest cadences are known as the alpha, beta and gamma cadences (V-I, IV-I and bVII-I).

The Gamma Cadence (bVII-I) is the most common cadential movement in both the pure Aeolian and Mixolydian modes.

Rather than thinking of the bVII-I progression as borrowing from the parallel minor, see it as derived from the borrowed parallel mixolydian bVII.

[Mike A]

In modes, the three strongest cadences are known as the alpha, beta and gamma cadences (V-I, IV-I and bVII-I).

The Gamma Cadence (bVII-I) is the most common cadential movement in both the pure Aeolian and Mixolydian modes.

Rather than thinking of the bVII-I progression as borrowing from the parallel minor, see it as derived from the borrowed parallel mixolydian bVII.

Parallel mixolydian?

C major: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
C mixolydian: C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C
bVII7: Bb-D-F-Ab

bVII7 isn't diatonic to the parallel mixolydian (no Ab).

(bVIIma7 can be borrowed from parallel mixolydian, but that's a different story than what's discussed above in this thread.)

I'm probably not understanding what you mean.

In any event, what's the disadvantage to the common conceptualization of bVII7 (along with other subdominant minor function chords, ii7b5, iv7 and bVImaj7) as being borrowed from parallel natural minor?

[Jeff Brent]

That's a different story than what's discussed above in this thread.

I automatically think some kind of "mixolydian" feel anytime I'm in a major tonality and there is motion between the tonic root chord built off a major triad and a bVII root chord also built off a major triad.

what's the disadvantage to the common conceptualization of bVII7 as being borrowed from parallel natural minor?

Due to the absence of an Eb here and the presence of an E (in the C major triad), I prefer to conceptualize the bVII7th chord as the bVII Gamma Cadence chord borrowed from the parallel "C Mixolydian b6 Scale " (aka "C Major Melodic" - the 5th mode of the Melodic Minor Scale):

C D E F G Ab Bb

(eg. "Killer Joe")

[Mike A]

...Due to the absence of an Eb here and the presence of an E (in the C major triad), I prefer to conceptualize the bVII7th chord as the bVII Gamma Cadence chord borrowed from the parallel "C Mixolydian b6 Scale " (aka "C Major Melodic" - the 5th mode of the Melodic Minor Scale) ...

Gotcha. I kind of mentally toggle back and forth between parallel natural minor and parallel 5th mode MM depending on the treatment of the E. Because the bVII7 is often preceded by its related ii7 in a backdoor dominant progression, e.g., Fm7 - Bb7 - Cma7, and the ii7 includes the b3 of the key (Fm7, 7th is Eb), I'll tend to be thinking parallel natural minor in that context (or if using the combined version, Bb7sus). But I'll also cheerfully play Bb7#11 (E-natural) in the right setting, thinking MM, and consider it not to have changed the subdominant minor function of the chord.

[Jeff Brent]

Because the bVII7 is often preceded by its ii7 in a backdoor dominant progression, e.g., Fm7 - Bb7 - Cma7

The ii7 of the bVII7 (if in C) is Cm7.

Didn't you mean to say "the bVII7 is often preceded by the iv7 in a backdoor dominant progression"?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

[Mike A]

The ii7 of the bVII7 (if in C) is Cm7.

Didn't you mean to say "the bVII7 is often preceded by the iv7 in a backdoor dominant progression"?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

I should have said its related ii7; i.e., the ii7 of the ii-V progression in which the bVII7 is serving as V7. The related ii7 of Bb7 is Fm7, which is also the iv7 in the key of C.

Not sure if "related ii7" is official terminology, although I see it used a lot, but anyway that's what I use to refer to a minor 7th that moves down a perfect fifth to a dominant 7th.

[jweiss]

This is a cool thread.

Although I don't have anything intelligent to add, I feel like it is missing a Hunter S. Thompson reference.


Backdoor Beauty???

[engelbach]

Gotcha. I kind of mentally toggle back and forth between parallel natural minor and parallel 5th mode MM depending on the treatment of the E. Because the bVII7 is often preceded by its related ii7 in a backdoor dominant progression, e.g., Fm7 - Bb7 - Cma7, and the ii7 includes the b3 of the key (Fm7, 7th is Eb), I'll tend to be thinking parallel natural minor in that context (or if using the combined version, Bb7sus). But I'll also cheerfully play Bb7#11 (E-natural) in the right setting, thinking MM, and consider it not to have changed the subdominant minor function of the chord.
Reviving an old thread after over a year ...

I'm impressed, although I don't completely follow you guys.

To me iv7-bVII7 is close to iiø-Valt — i.e., dominant — so when soloing I use similar voice leading with both those progressions to take me back to I.

It doesn't help me to think of iv7-bVII7 as being either in the Mixolydian or relative minor modes, since I don't want to blow in those keys. The sound of iv7-bVII7 is major, but for me it functions as a dominant, with the b7 acting as a blue note in the tonic key.

One example, as I indicated in an earlier post, is Groovin' High. The melody over the ending progression | Fm7 - - - | Abm7 - Db7 - | EbΔ - - - | works just as well if Bb7b9 is substituted for Db7. All I hear in the iv7-bVII7 is color, nothing more.

[Mike A]

...To me iv7-bVII7 is close to iiø-Valt — i.e., dominant — so when soloing I use similar voice leading with both those progressions to take me back to I. ...

I think from a theory standpoint iv7-bVII7 is normally treated as subdominant minor function (basically, an extended minor plagal cadence) in the primary key.

But ... You're of course right that iiø is very much like ivm7. It can also be considered borrowed from parallel natural minor, subdominant minor function. It has the "character note" of parallel natural minor, the b6 (Ab in the key of C, which of course is the minor third of iv). I haven't seen V7alt associated with subdominant minor function, rather it's always dominant function in the primary key, but it certainly shares important notes, including the b6. (E.g., three lower-structure notes of Bb7, Bb-F-Ab, are also notes in G7alt.)

Anyway, I hear ya. I'm going to go play bar 4 of Misty a few times today.

...It doesn't help me to think of iv7-bVII7 as being either in the Mixolydian or relative minor modes, since I don't want to blow in those keys. The sound of iv7-bVII7 is major, but for me it functions as a dominant, with the b7 acting as a blue note in the tonic key.

Just to clarify: Parallel minor, not relative minor. And parallel 5th mode melodic minor (aka mixolydian b6). But I understand what you're saying.

[Mike A]

C major:
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-A

C natural minor:
C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C

Chords diatonic to C natural minor:
Cm7
Dm7b5
Ebmaj7
Fm7
Gm7
Abmaj7
Bb7

Of those, the chords containing the b6:
Dm7b5
Fm7
Abmaj7
Bb7

My understanding is that those chords are considered to have subdominant minor function in C major, normally considered to be borrowed from parallel C natural minor. In r.n. analysis they are:

ii7b5
iv7
bVImaj7
bVII7

C 5th mode melodic minor (aka C mixolydian b6):
C-D-E-F-G-Ab-Bb-C

The only difference between C natural minor and C 5th mode melodic minor is that the former has Eb, the latter has E natural.

[engelbach]

I think from a theory standpoint iv7-bVII7 is normally treated as subdominant minor function (basically, an extended minor plagal cadence) in the primary key.

But ... You're of course right that iiø is very much like ivm7. It can also be considered borrowed from parallel natural minor, subdominant minor function. It has the "character note" of parallel natural minor, the b6 (Ab in the key of C, which of course is the minor third of iv). I haven't seen V7alt associated with subdominant minor function, rather it's always dominant function in the primary key, but it certainly shares important notes, including the b6. (E.g., three lower-structure notes of Bb7, Bb-F-Ab, are also notes in G7alt.)

Anyway, I hear ya. I'm going to go play bar 4 of Misty a few times today.

Just to clarify: Parallel minor, not relative minor. And parallel 5th mode melodic minor (aka mixolydian b6). But I understand what you're saying.
Parallel schmarallel. Right. My bad.

I follow bar 4 of Misty not with I but with IIIalt-VIalt.

[Mike A]

... I follow bar 4 of Misty not with I but with IIIalt-VIalt.

Like so?

| iv7 - bVII7 - | III7alt - VI7alt - |

| Abm7 - Db7 - | G7alt - C7alt - |

Interesting: III7 is the tritone sub of bVII7. For Db7 I normally play 13#11, so if I play G7alt in the next measure it comes out sounding like essentially the identical chord.

[engelbach]

Like so?

| iv7 - bVII7 - | III7alt - VI7alt - |

| Abm7 - Db7 - | G7alt - C7alt - |

Interesting: III7 is the tritone sub of bVII7. For Db7 I normally play 13#11, so if I play G7alt in the next measure it comes out sounding like essentially the identical chord.
Right.

That's true. The rootless voicings are identical. I play this sequence differently depending on whether I'm playing rootless with a bass player or soloing.

Rootless I often use iii7-VIalt.

Soloing, the Galt-Calt (plus Falt and sometimes Ealt) starts a new, harder sounding sequence than the one ending with Db13#11 (I use this the same as you), so the fact that the Db and G are almost the same chord is not obvious — at least not to me.

I don't use this all the time.

[raneyjr]

The bVII might be thought of as a 'borrowed' chord from the parallel minor key.


I think this is the most correct interpretation of the "backdoor progression".
It's borrowing from the IVminor bVII sound as if the key were minor

For Example in Cmaj modal borrowing from C-

F-7 Bb7 hints at Ebmaj of C- . Then moves back to Cmajor. It makes the Cmajor sound a bit brighter when you arrive at it. Or E-7

[EdByrne]

Eb:

| Abm7 - Db7 - | G7alt - C7alt - |

I hear this as a sub V7/VI with its related ii7, extended by two beats with the change of root for the related V7/ii. It is a form of harmonic side-slipping, in which whatever you play on the first 2 5, can work down a m2nd.

In any case, all those alts involve a lotta calculation which can lead to melodic meandering and cerebral hemorage. I always seek to minimize and then lose such local thinking, in favor of developing the melody, gtl and root progression. If I know the melody and its rhythms well--and the key(s) it's in, and can develop it, such local considerations become adjectives and adverbs, rather than a focal point.

We have a far too accompaniment-centric pedagogy for linear improvisation these days. For me the accompaniment merely co-exists. Let'em play whatever chords they like. Based on the melody, my lines will work in any case.

Sometimes I turn this thinking upside down, too, by creating an unusual chord succession, over which I'll just play the blues, causing at the same time a down-home blues feel--with an out sound context. Better to do that sometimes than to create a straight-jacket.

[engelbach]

Eb:

| Abm7 - Db7 - | G7alt - C7alt - |

I hear this as a sub V7/VI with its related ii7, extended by two beats with the change of root for the related V7/ii. It is a form of harmonic side-slipping, in which whatever you play on the first 2 5, can work down a m2nd.

In any case, all those alts involve a lotta calculation which can lead to melodic meandering and cerebral hemorage. I always seek to minimize and then lose such local thinking, in favor of developing the melody, gtl and root progression. If I know the melody and its rhythms well--and the key(s) it's in, and can develop it, such local considerations become adjectives and adverbs, rather than a focal point.

We have a far too accompaniment-centric pedagogy for linear improvisation these days. For me the accompaniment merely co-exists. Let'em play whatever chords they like. Based on the melody, my lines will work in any case.

Sometimes I turn this thinking upside down, too, by creating an unusual chord succession, over which I'll just play the blues, causing at the same time a down-home blues feel--with an out sound context. Better to do that sometimes than to create a straight-jacket.
In playing solo I'll sometimes drop in a lot of reharms for color. Comping is another story.