usings ii v's in a blues

[yanksfanwhm]

hey guys this is my first post! i just recently started with a great jazz teacher, and i learned alot in my first lesson, but i forgot to take notes when he was talking to me about using 2-5's in a regular 1-4-5 blues. I remember something about leading into the 4 chord from the 1 with some 2-5's, but i dont remeber how they were arranged or anything. I'd appreciate any help you can offer. Thanks!

[thedwork]

... I remember something about leading into the 4 chord from the 1 with some 2-5's, but i dont remeber how they were arranged or anything. I'd appreciate any help you can offer. Thanks!


i assume since it was your 1st lesson it was a basic ii - V approach to the 4 (IV) chord.

if it's a blues in C, the IV chord is F. the ii - V which 'leads/resolves' to F is Gmin - C7. so in a blues, when approaching the IV chord, you can play over the ii - V changes that lead to that chord even though they may not be entirely diatonic to the key of the tune because of how it resolves and where it is in the form. does this sound like what your teacher was talking about? this same idea is used all over the place for all kinds of target areas. not just in a blues. but the situation you are describing is a classic example.

it's a real standard sound you hear all the time. happy playing...

[Jay Norem]

i assume since it was your 1st lesson it was a basic ii - V approach to the 4 (IV) chord.

if it's a blues in C, the IV chord is F. the ii - V which 'leads/resolves' to F is Gmin - C7. so in a blues, when approaching the IV chord, you can play over the ii - V changes that lead to that chord even though they may not be entirely diatonic to the key of the tune because of how it resolves. does this sound like what your teacher was talking about? this same idea is used all over the place for all kinds of target areas. not just in a blues. but the situation you are describing is a classic example.

it's a real standard sound you hear all the time. happy playing...

But if it's in C then wouldn't the 2 chord be a D and the 5 chord be a G? I can see how G would be the 2 of F and C the 5, but is that how that goes really?

[OnyaBirri]

But if it's in C then wouldn't the 2 chord be a D and the 5 chord be a G? I can see how G would be the 2 of F and C the 5, but is that how that goes really?

Yes, that's exactly what he means - the relative "ii" and "V" of the target key. If it's a tune in C and you're modulating to F, the Gm7 and C7 become the new ii and V7 of the new key (F).

I hope this makes sense. I'm falling asleep...

[saxymanzach]

I play two-bar ii-V patterns over the 9th and 10th bars a lot. Seems that most bassist and pianist walk and comp that way, too.

[BillGrahamMusic]

Here are some of the more common ii-V's played on a blues (exampe in C);



C7 | F7 | C7 | Gm7 C7 (or F#m7 C#7) | F7 | F7 | C7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 | G7 | C7 A7 | Dm7 [G7

[thedwork]

Yes, that's exactly what he means - the relative "ii" and "V" of the target key. If it's a tune in C and you're modulating to F, the Gm7 and C7 become the new ii and V7 of the new key (F).

except that i wouldn't call it a "modulation." there's no new "key" here. it's all blues in C. but i know you know that...

[Jay Norem]

except that i wouldn't call it a "modulation." there's no new "key" here. it's all blues in C. but i know you know that...

Okay now I know I going to come across as way stupid, but here's the thing: if it's all in C, then why the "relative" 2 and 5? Wouldn't the 2 be a D chord and the 5 be a G chord? A flat-7 a Bb? And so on? 6 an A? 3 an E?
I didn't study jazz in music school, and I've forgotten most of what I was taught there anyway. But what I'm gathering here is that the chord numbers are directly in relation to the "target" chord, rather than to the key. Do I have that right?
So in a 1-4-5 blues in C, the 2 and 5 of C are D and G, the 2 and 5 of F are G and C, and the 2 and 5 of G are A and D, so there are potentially three "2's and 5's" in a C blues progression. Seems confusing but if that's how it is then I sure want to know it.

[cillit bang]

Hi Jay,

You're definately on the right trail man, it a usefull little music shorthand called the Nashville System

The Roman numerals I ii iii IV V vi vii etc refer to counting up the scale

Upper case = Maj
lower case = min


So in , for example ...... in the Key of Bb

when we talk about the chords you can make out of that Bb maj scale

Bbmaj7 is called the I chord ........we sometimes just say the "one"
Cmin7 is the ii chord..............we say Cmin7 is the "two" of Bb etc
Dmin7 is the iii ............the "three "of Bb etc etc
Ebmaj7 is the IV
F7 is the V chord etc
Gmin is the vi
Aminb5 is the vii

OK ? so next bit ............................

In a Blues on Bar 5 you probably hit the IV or "four" chord yeah ?

You could 'approach' that IV chord with it's own little ii V progression

like in this Blues in F

/ F7 / F7 / F7 / Cmin F7 / Bb7 etc

The Cmin to F7 bar 4 is called a "ii V to the IV chord"
its a "two five to the four chord"

Bb7 is the IV chord here yeah

Later Jem

PS Yes I know the IV chord could/should be a Maj7 chord but this is the blues
so get over it already ;0)

[Jay Norem]

Hi Jay,

You're definately on the right trail man, it a usefull little music shorthand called the Nashville System


I got ya, Jem. Thanks man.
J

[Phil Kelly]

But if it's in C then wouldn't the 2 chord be a D and the 5 chord be a G? I can see how G would be the 2 of F and C the 5, but is that how that goes really?

This is one of the concepts of traditional theory rears its head -called "tonicazation" which merely means you prepare for a temporary change of Key center ( in this case, the four chord ) with a II- V of the ensuing key. It can also be employed in other situations as well ( such as some tritone subs )

[Phil Kelly]

In early bebop days, Bird, Diz and others were continuing ways to harmonically stretch the basic blues form -one such version was one based on a series of temporary ii-Vs (*):

( in F )


F/ (*) emi7 A7 /dmi7 Db7 /(*)cmi7 add11 ( tts ) B75b / Bb7
(*)Bbmi 7 Eb7 /Ab MA7 /(*)Ab mi 7 Db7 /Gb MA7/
Gmi7- over C C over Bb /(*) Ami7 5b D75b /
Gmi7 C9# etc ...

[Egbert Souse]

You got some good info regarding your question here, yanks.

I'm not an analyzer or a teacher but in my own worm's-eye-view, the colorful or slick-sounding stuff you hear bebop players play in a blues is often in that ii V thing before the IV chord and it's all about keeping forward motion going.

Once you get that in your ear, you might check out Charlie Parker's Confirmation, which is basically a blues but he stuck a whole lotta that ii V stuff in there to keep things moving.

[thedwork]

This is one of the concepts of traditional theory rears its head -called "tonicazation" which merely means you prepare for a temporary change of Key center ( in this case, the four chord ) with a II- V of the ensuing key. It can also be employed in other situations as well ( such as some tritone subs )

just curious here: you're not calling the basic thing we're talking about here - slipping in a related ii-V heading to the IV in a basic blues - a tonicization or key change are you? that would be surprising to me...

[yanksfanwhm]

thanks for all the great advice guys!

[BillGrahamMusic]

just curious here: you're not calling the basic thing we're talking about here - slipping in a related ii-V heading to the IV in a basic blues - a tonicization or key change are you? that would be surprising to me...

Yeah, it is indeed a tonicization. Generally, a tonicization is quite brief, while a modulation usually lasts a bit longer. So, there's an authentic cadence in the key of IV, but it immediately reasserts I as tonic.

Bill

[Jay Norem]

I'm finding this discussion to be quite fascinating. Wish we could have more like this here.

[Phil Kelly]

just curious here: you're not calling the basic thing we're talking about here - slipping in a related ii-V heading to the IV in a basic blues - a tonicization or key change are you? that would be surprising to me...

Check what I said again :

>>"tonicazation" which merely means you prepare for a TEMPOPARY change of Key center <<

..regarless of whatever target chord is the temporary key center..

blues or otherwise ...

[Fred]

Here are some of the more common ii-V's played on a blues (exampe in C);
C7 | F7 | C7 | Gm7 C7 (or F#m7 C#7) | F7 | F7 | C7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 | G7 | C7 A7 | Dm7 [G7

Hi Bill,

are you shure about the F#-7 C#7 in your example? Shouldn't it be instead a Db-7 Gb7 on that place? Db-7 Gb7 would be the Tritone Substitution of G-7 C7.

[JonR]

Check what I said again :

>>"tonicazation" which merely means you prepare for a TEMPOPARY change of Key center <<

..regarless of whatever target chord is the temporary key center..

blues or otherwise ...I think it might be worth pointing out here that blues is a strange animal in that - before we get into all this ii-V and tonicisation business - it uses dom7 chords in non-functional ways.
Eg, in key of C, the IV chord is usually F7, which is not a V of anything. The Eb in the chord is merely a reflection of the b3 of the key - the blues third being movable between minor and major (and all points in between).
Likewise the use of C7 as tonic is not (necessarily) as V of F. The Bb represents the b7 of the C blues scale, not the 4 of F.
Of course, it gets used both ways. In bar 4 of a C blues, a C7 will certainly acquire a secondary dominant function, once we hear the F in bar 5.

The G7 is of course a primary dominant chord and functions like that. But even so it commonly (in traditional blues) goes via a plagal F before getting to C - and that F will probably contain an Eb too. The Waters are Muddy here... :rolleyes:

In jazz (seems to me), musicians like to increase the functional harmonic potential of blues, moving away from the arguably more modal quality of traditional blues - much of which exists perfectly happily on one chord, or using a single scale tonality against which chord changes are largely decorative, with minimal functional purpose.
(This is not a criticism of course, merely an observation.)

[BillGrahamMusic]

Hi Bill,

are you shure about the F#-7 C#7 in your example? Shouldn't it be instead a Db-7 Gb7 on that place? Db-7 Gb7 would be the Tritone Substitution of G-7 C7.

Doh! Yes, I certainly did mean Db-7 to Gb7. Sorry about that.

Bill

[thedwork]

Check what I said again :

>>"tonicazation" which merely means you prepare for a TEMPOPARY change of Key center <<

..regarless of whatever target chord is the temporary key center..

blues or otherwise ...


that's cool. i remain surprised. i've never heard anyone refer to the IV chord in a blues as a 'temporary key center' or any kind of key change - temporary or otherwise. there ya go...

[shiatoru]

I vote for "still in C"... :tanz:


Just think of it as playing fast & loose with chord quality....

I don't even usually think of it as a ii7 - V7 as a "windup" to the IV7 chord - I just start taking the C7 (I7) out as little or a lot as I feel like, as late or early as I feel like - sometimes as early as bar 1! ~pimp:

Oh and yeah - you can throw in all your VI7 - ii7 - V7 stuff right on top of a band going from the V7 => IV7 and it''ll usually work just fine, unless you scare the bass player to badly..... :shrug:

[JonR]

that's cool. i remain surprised. i've never heard anyone refer to the IV chord in a blues as a 'temporary key center' or any kind of key change - temporary or otherwise. there ya go...It's not a "key change", this is the point - although disagreements here may be simple semantics ;). It's a "tonicisation", which is something short of a key change or modulation. The F (talking key of C here) is not a new key centre.
All that the C7 (or Gm7-C7) does is increase the forward momentum on to F, by some stronger voice-leading - as if a modulation is approaching. But I don't think any of us will hear that F as a new key centre. It's still the IV chord. We've just been driven there more firmly than if we'd gone via a plain C, or Cmaj7.

Hence - as I understand it - the term "secondary dominant". If it really was a key change to F, then C7 would be the "primary dominant" of the new key.

In comparison, a common practice (outside of blues, mostly), which I'm sure you know, is using a dom7 on II to tonicise the V chord. I realise this is often called a "modulation" to the dominant - but (at least in the pop/rock/jazz contexts I'm thinking of) the dominant is still heard as such: as the V, not a new I. Eg, if we're in key of C and precede our G chord with a D7 (instead of Dm7), we don't really hear G as a new key (assuming C major has already been well established); we're still waiting for it to go back to C.

This is what I see as the difference. We remain conscious of the initial (overall) key centre. The "secondary dominants" just take us sideways (as it were) temporarily, without putting us on a new track.

[Fred]

My point of view whether it is a simple movement to the subdominant or modulation towards a new tonic is not the way how to go forward in the 4. bar to the IV degree but how you proceed from there. That is to say, the decision whether you hear the C7 in bar 4 as a secondary dominant or a pivot chord is made later.
If the stay on the IV degree is relatively short and the forward going in the main key is going on, then it is just a move to the IV degree reached by some strong voice-leading, as JonR said.
On the other hand, once reached the IV degree, in the same manner as before, and then the IV degree is confirmed with an authentic cadence toward itself as a tonic, then it is a modulation.
But in both cases the 4. bar can be played as a II-7 V7/IV.

[EdByrne]

Secondary Key Area, Key of the Moment

In general, a phrase usually lasts at least 4 mm. to allow time for it to constitute an actual modualtion. Most shorter cadences are Secondary Key Areas or Keys of the Moment (tonicization). Itdonmattawachacallit!

[Phil Kelly]

This whole discussion regarding "tonicization " "temorary key centers" and the like really points out which folks here have at some time or another had to sweat out basic academic theory courses -and those who picked up on "jazz harmony" through other means.

Those of us who have had academic theory training will never forget having to harmonically analyze all those bach chorales in first year theory !

:tearhair: :tearhair: :confused2 :tearhair: :tearhair: :confused2

Ironically, if you did have this training, you already had a leg up on the Nashville number system which was based on similar principles.

[JonR]

This whole discussion regarding "tonicization " "temorary key centers" and the like really points out which folks here have at some time or another had to sweat out basic academic theory courses -and those who picked up on "jazz harmony" through other means.

Those of us who have had academic theory training will never forget having to harmonically analyze all those bach chorales in first year theory !I trust you're including me among the "through other means" category... ;)

I think I'm probably glad I didn't have to analyse Bach chorales... (not that I have anything against JSB). Theory is merely a hobby for me, I'd hate it to get too serious.
But of course it's great learning from you guys!