Clark Terry

[champjams]

I think Clark Terry is the greatest living Jazz trumpet player today. There are alot of good trumpet players, and some awesome trumpet players in Jazz music. But it seems to me that Clark, at the tender age of 82, now takes his place as King. He is the greatest living Jazz trumpeter.

Anybody else?

[jazzypaul]

I love Clark. He's definitely earned whatever accolades he gets heaped upon him. Where to start? I definitely loved his record with Oscar Peterson, and I dig the hell out of the record he did with Monk. I can't think of a Clark Terry album I don't like, now that I think about it.

[clifton]

I don't want to argue Clark Terry vs. Dave Douglas or anything like that. I'll just say that Clark Terry is one of the all-time greats, has been for nearly 50 years, still is.

[Pharaohrock]

You should go on one of those floating jazz cruises teenie. You can see all your heroes- Clark Terry, Louie Bellson, Lou Donaldson, Lonnie Smith....everyone on board is at least 50 but that shouldn't bother you since in your mind the old is better than the new in principle.

Clark Terry is a very charming and lyrical player but he's never been one of the very best trumpeters around....anyone with a little perspective could inform you of this. He is a fantastic blues player, but he's never had an abundance of chops and doesn't have that great of range either.

Wallace Roney, Nick Payton, and your hero Roy Hargrove could all smoke Terry on anything uptempo. And have you heard Roy play a ballad? That's one of Clark's strong suits but Roy has definitely taken his place as one of the most poignant ballad players.


In any event, your heroes are waiting for you on the cruise teenie.You can worship them there all you like. Spare us the announcements of who's "king" of an instrument in the meantime.

[Pharaohrock]

I should add THERE WAS A TIME when Terry would have been considered one of the 5 best trumpeters around, but that time has long since past...

[jazzypaul]

You know what I like about you pharaoh? You're not afraid to throw down. I try to be nice, you just say fuck it, this guy's a prick, and I'm gonna say what I gotta say. I dig that. I was hesitant to say that the last time I saw Clark, he got blown off the stage by Hugh Ragin, Roy Hargrove and Nicholas Payton (it was a trumpet summit), but I just wanted to be nice. But, hell, we all know that Champjams is just going to use this to talk about Clark's blues and his swing, and the lack of those in any other player alive besides Benny Green and Champjams the blues master. So, again, thanks Pharaohrock.

[Pharaohrock]

lol- s' cool Paul. Not to start a whole lovefest here but what I dig about you is that you TRY to be nice. You're the resident diplomat on this board and there's a definite value in that, as much as folks like Coypu and Champie try to rebuke your efforts to be reasonable and tolerant. At the same time you're not a pushover....I just don't have half the patience you do.

[DWBass]

I'd like to know what he thinks of Arturo Sandoval?! :confused:

[champjams]

Pharoah, I don't believe you are misinformed, I think you are just perhaps immature or unaware. You cannot bait me into defending Clark Terry and his music. However, statements such as "he's never been one of the very best trumpeters around...." cause you to appear in a very unfavorable light. I won't even begin to try to persuade you in this matter, because I'm not all together certain that you're salvagable. Although I am told that anyone can learn.

Your input here about Clark Terry only makes me sad for you. Someday, on a sad day, you will realize how these types of statements have truly embarassed you.

Mr. Jazzie -
Your recalling Clark Terry being outplayed by 3 children, 1/3 of his age, may have happened - if Clark was having a bad day. However, at this stage in his life he is 82 years old, he has diabetes, he's blind in one eye and can't see well out of the other, he has colon cancer, and no feeling in his lower extremities. So it is possible that Clark had a bad day. But, even now....you don't want to be a trumpet player and have to go up against Clark on a good day for him.

[champjams]

As far as this Jazz cruise thing, if you haven't gone on one....then you're missing out. They are awesome, and I have been twice.

[Pharaohrock]

Someday, on a sad day, you will realize how these types of statements have truly embarassed you.
DITTO TEENIE.

And for the record, I did say at one time he may have been considered one of the best trumpet players. But that has been SOME time ago. Having no perspective as a rosy-faced rube, you wouldn't know this. Whereas, even though I was not alive during Clark's prime, I know roundabout when that was, as well as what current players would have to say about his CURRENT playing.

And don't try and play a guilt trip about Clark either, much less try and retract your statement as being nothing more than a sentiment and not something you truly believe. That's weakass. You said Clark Terry was the greatest living player alive today, that he was KING. Why should we not take that at surface value and feel free to argue the point?? (oh, I know, because you lack the knowledge to be able to adequately rebut those who challenge your bold claims....an argument could be made but you're not going to make it, I know that.)

One question for you: do you watch the 700 Club man?? Because based on everything that's come out of your piehole here, I think you would be a perfect candidate for a fire-and-brimstone, evangelical church. You're definitely of the "true believer" persuausion, that's for sure...

[Pharaohrock]

Hugh RAgin ain't a kid either. He's in his 50s. But you wouldn't know that.

[Pharaohrock]

btw, Ragin has played with both your hero Maynard Ferguson and with David Murray, who's had a longstanding association with John Hicks. The jazz world is confusing isn't it teenie? All of these cats doing these "strange" projects they shouldn't be proud of...lol.

[champjams]

Pharoah, I started this thread with my idea. You can disagree all you like, the point is can you support your debate? Calling me names and trashing me doesn't make any point for you. Why are you responding to me, other than just to say I'm stupid? Is that the extent of your original thought? If you think Roy Hargrove is a greater trumpet player than Clark Terry (god forbid), then support your idea. Let's here about it. Tell me about why that is true. You sound like an immature child.

Clark Terry is the greatest living trumpet player, at this time.

BTW, I'm not guilt tripping you. I am trying to educate you.

[Pharaohrock]

Dude, you are a freakin' moron. And I honestly feel no inhibition in saying that at all with the only exception that you may be suicidal and my words could drive you further towards the brink. Call the hotline and get help if it comes to that. Now consider yourself priveliged- I've just officially designated you as "ignored." I will not see your sadass posts anymore, as inane and counterproductive as it is to respond to your nonsense.

[champjams]

I appreciate your surrendering in this debate, and of course it was quite evident that you had lost the debate in the beginning of the post in which name calling was the major content of your original thought.

BIRD LIVES

[jazzypaul]

I think it may be more proper to call Clark the most respected trumpet player on the planet at this point. Greatest living, though, leaves out 50 years of innovations that Clark largely didn't take part in.

BTW...saying that Pharaohrock conceded defeat because he couldn't put up with your nazi-like doctrines on jazz (yes, you read that right. I am sure that given the chance that you would also destroy any jazz that didn't meet the mandates of your jazz-state -- Hard Bop Uber Alles, I guess) is kinda like saying that your posts make sense.

and if bird's spirit truly lives on, it most certainly doesn't live on in you. His whole thing was about experimentation and exploration. Your whole thing is about being a museum curator.

[DWBass]

Hey chumpj oop I mean champjams, any relation to Coypu??:rolleyes: Or are you one and the same?! Just wondering...

[andreimatorin]

happy birthday DWbass

[GA Russell]

Clark Terry has a special sentimental place in my record collection.

In the summer of '66, I bought my second jazz album, Gotta Travel On by Ray Bryant. Terry was on it.

The following summer I bought my first copy of Jazz Magazine (later Jazz & Pop), which was the product of Frank Kosky (??). Terry was on the cover! The article was his retort to a Downbeat three-star review of his latest album.

I believe, and this may be flat out wrong, that Terry and Snooky Young (also on that Ray Bryant album) integrated the Tonight Show band (the "NBC Orchestra") a couple of years later, when the show was still done in New York.

Finally, let me point out that Terry is most famous for his mumbling scat singing. Where he ever ranked as a trumpet player I'll let others discuss. But he clearly developed a unique and likeable persona on the bandstand, and jazz could use many more like him.

[bombastic]

look up pigheaded in your dictionary, and you'll see a picture of champjams. what a stubborn motherfucker this guy is!:confused: :eek: :mad: somebody give this guy a ticket for the space shuttle. preferably, one with a few loose tiles.

[DWBass]

Originally posted by andreimatorin
happy birthday DWbass Why thank you very much! :)

[champjams]

Russell -
Clark Terry is famous for mumbles? What about his nine years with Duke Ellington prior to that?

Coypu -
Not exactly. I am not a big fan of death metal. But your thing is your thing man.

I'm glad that someone can speak for Bird, thank you Jazzie. "50 years of innovation that Clark didn't take part in".....You are conspicuously ignorant.

[clifton]

Clark Terry is seriously ill. Even if his chops are gone, he remains one of the great trumpeters in jazz history, and his chops were up through most of the 1990's. My great idea is let's argue about it some more so we can show Clark how deeply we respect his achievement. Somebody around here has to grow up.

[jazzypaul]

You know what, Clifton, I agree. The problem that comes in is that this argument really has nothing to do with Clark Terry, and has everything to do with Champjams, Champ's attitude and all around terrible demeanor. Of course, people saying that anyone is the best at anything is going to spark debate. Champ bringing up Clark Terry at a time when he had just gotten done saying that the only players that matter are the ones who have their heads thoroughly on the old school tip is going to exacerbate things quite a bit. And that's exactly what happened. Had any one, even Coypu, started that thread, it would have been a lovefest for Clark instead. Do I mean any harm to Clark? No. I think he's a wonderful player, a superb elder statesman and a top notch entertainer. Much as we should all aim to have a little Bird in our playing, a little Bud Powell in our playing, a little Hank Mobley in our playing and a little Ornette in our playing, we shouldn't forget to put a little Clark in there too.

[bombastic]

champjams, open your mind,man. you sound like body electric. that's the username of an idiot over at the jazz times website who you rival in the narrowminded and self-absorbed department. who do you think you are, man? the bloody pope! who crowned you the king of ignorance? try listening to something modern and take off your adult diapers. the mess in your pants is causing you to be cranky. it's uncomfortable, but don't take it out on guys who want to hear some new jazz. We don't need Some Dumb Okie telling us what we should listen to.Go out into the cornfield, and Get Lost under a tornado.

[jazzypaul]

Wow, Bombastic, what happened to the hugs, kisses, smiles and exclamation points that we're used to from you? I think champ is a knob, but I wouldn't wish death on him/her.

[DWBass]

Originally posted by bombastic
champjams, open your mind,man. you sound like body electric. that's the username of an idiot over at the jazz times website who you rival in the narrowminded and self-absorbed department. who do you think you are, man? the bloody pope! who crowned you the king of ignorance? try listening to something modern and take off your adult diapers. the mess in your pants is causing you to be cranky. it's uncomfortable, but don't take it out on guys who want to hear some new jazz. We don't need Some Dumb Okie telling us what we should listen to.Go out into the cornfield, and Get Lost under a tornado. Bear in mind, looking at the kid's birthdate, he's not even 20 years old yet!! What can you possibly know at 18? I mean really?!

[bombastic]

Somehow i had the impression he was an old fogey. paul, i'm playing around a little bit with the guy, although it's fun to spew vitriol at these guys who seem to deserve a good tongue- lashing. basically, i consider it writing practice. if you go over to the jazz times website, there's a poster who calls himself "body electric"> as we know, there's one in every crowd, and he is the supreme asshole over there. It's kind of fun to take out anger at these dunderheads,as you well know. in reality, i have no mean intentions toward anyone, unless i'm being physically attacked.:cool: :rolleyes: :cool:

[RodneyDude]

Hey all,
Let Champjams alone already for goodness sakes!
If his hero is Clark Terry so be it. Is he not intitled to his own opinions? Can he like and not like what he wants too? Give him a freakin break! The guy likes Clark Terry, so try to say something nice or shut up! Boy real supportive here aren't we? Really helping jazz push ahead aren't we? Bunch of freakin childish hypocrits with nothing better to do than flaunt your overratted opinions and bash others who might disagree. Damn for goodness sakes people (JazzyPaul Pharorock) give it up! PLease let this be and be the bigger people here. Let Champ enjoy whatever he wants too. Sheesh!

[RodneyDude]

Jazz said it better than I.

[Pharaohrock]

Rodney, with all due respect, it's obvious you don't the background on this and Champ's ways. He uses everything to pound the soap box and preach his message of blues and swing down our throats, so I'm not content to simply "let him be" as he's clearly shown himself to be quite intolerant.

[champjams]

Alright, let's get a few things straight boys. Since this thread has obviously deteriorated to personal attacks (all of you lose) and insane ranting; let's just get a few things straight. First off, comments such as "Dumb Okie" simply shows your ignorance about the great legacy of Jazz in this area. But I guess we all do know that the only things in Oklahoma are steers and queers. Most people call me cowGIRL.

As for Clark Terry - he IS the greatest living Jazz Trumpet Player.

And blues and swing must be present for it to be Jazz.

[Pharaohrock]

WE ALL LOSE!!!

Champ, get a life...

[jazzypaul]

Champ, the problem is not with the rich tradition of jazz from Oklahoma, as you're right, there is one. Of course, all of those greats moved to Kansas City, with the exception of Charlie Christian, who moved to New York. But if you noticed, all of them got the hell out of Oklahoma. They knew better than to stay. Maybe once you leave it will all make sense. If you don't want me to make fun (which, by the way, isn't me losing an argument, it's me having fun with my prey. The same way a cat does with a mouse that it's about to kill.) don't make absolute statements. I could care less if you have certain criteria that you want the music that you listen to to meet. That's even noble. But it's utterly ridiculous to force those same criteria upon those of us that don't agree with you. You wonder why people thrash on you, well, that's why. I'll discuss whatever you want to discuss, but when you start telling me that I don't listen to relevant jazz music, or you start talking trash about my scene or my heroes, I will yell, kick, scream, thrash and name call all day long. The choice is up to you.

[champjams]

Jazzie - you do listen to irrelevant Jazz music from what I've read of your posts. On the subject of Oklahoma, have you ever heard of Jay McShann or Walter Page? Your mis-statement of people leaving Oklahoma only, once again, shows your ignorance on this subject. BTW, the entire 52nd Street left New York City.

It's not my criteria. Whether or not you choose to accept the truth about Jazz does not change the truth. If it's raining, but you refuse to accept it - you're still going to get wet.

IT DON'T MEAN A THING IF IT AIN'T GOT THAT SWING.

that's not one of my radical ideas.

Jazzie, you're a big fan of Ayn Rand and yet you do not accept the idea of an absolute? Ever read 'Atlas Shrugged?'

[jazzypaul]

For one, Jay McShann DID leave Oklahoma city. He went to Kansas City, then to New York, then to Los Angeles. If he came back to Oklahoma City(pardon my ignorance...even I don't know everything about jazz), then that's great for the Oklahoma City jazz scene, and you should feel lucky to have him. Walter Page spent time in Oklahoma City, but shit, the guy died in New York while working in Condon's Mob! You're wrong about the 52nd Street scene leaving New York, too. Most of those cats died in New York and lived their lives there.

As for absolutes, I believe in them, I just don't think we've reached that point in the realm of jazz just yet. There's still plenty of ground to cover, and I hope that I can cover a lot of it.

And, no, you have not spoken the truth about jazz. Jazz is ever changing. You and your opinions are not. That immediately puts you at odds with jazz, not allied with it. Yes, I think it must swing. But you've got some aesthetic that you're looking for that goes beyond playing a blues, and you're not sharing that with us. Which makes me wonder where exactly it is that you're coming from.

I go back to something I said long ago...a large part of playing this music is having lived through something, having stories to tell. It is totally obvious that you have no story to tell, and therefore are stuck in a stylistic straightjacket. I wish the best for you Champ, but with an attitude like yours, what is it that you can possibly accomplish? One thinks absolutely nothing. If you refuse to absorb what is out there, you'll never advance. And you won't get too much work in a place like New York. Not on your feet anyway. Maybe on your back if you're pretty....

[bombastic]

champjams- i unplug your computer-you be dead. I'll bet you wouldn't want to be unplugged then. we all love electricity.i unplug you refrigerator, your food go bad. i turn off your lights, you be in the dark. why not the use of electronics in jazz. listen to david s. wares "corridors and parallels." lateef said that back in 1970. it's now 2003. Just because Ayn Rand said something doesn't mean it's true. Don't believe everything you read. Don't believe everything you think. In your case,don't believe anything you think.

[clifton]

Wardell Gray and Don Cherry were from Oklahoma. Sonny Stitt and Tony Williams were from Boston. Von Freeman, God bless him, is from Chicago. As of now, this thread is from hunger.

[champjams]

Non-Absolute Jazzie, Walter Page spent time in OKC? Not quite. Walter Page & The Blue Devils were from here. Have you ever heard of 2nd Street in OKC? Do you know anything about Jazz history other than what is on the back of your records? What difference does it make where a bunch of musicians go to die? If you want a little Jazz history lesson about the midwest, check out Ralph Ellison's essays on OKC. Jazz isn't about you and your story, after going to Northern Illonois. If not one college ever had a Jazz band, it would not hurt the state of Jazz music.

A large part of this music is understanding what the people who created it, did live through. What you live through in suburban white Illonois is irrelevant. The music is not about you.

BTW, The last time I was in NYC 52nd St. was all insurance companies and banks - no Jazz clubs.

Bombastic - you've finally gotten the picture. You unplug my computer, I be dead. Maybe that's why I don't play the computer. The real question is, why should electricity have a place in Jazz? It wasn't there in the beginning. Music has survived for thousands of years without electricity.

[jazzypaul]

Non-Absolute Jazzie, Walter Page spent time in OKC? Not quite. Walter Page & The Blue Devils were from here. Have you ever heard of 2nd Street in OKC? Do you know anything about Jazz history other than what is on the back of your records? What difference does it make where a bunch of musicians go to die? If you want a little Jazz history lesson about the midwest, check out Ralph Ellison's essays on OKC. Jazz isn't about you and your story, after going to Northern Illonois. If not one college ever had a Jazz band, it would not hurt the state of Jazz music.

Walter Page and the Blue Devils were indeed FROM OKC, but they left. It was unhip, there wasn't enough work, and they left for New York. Walter Page made his name, largely in New York. I will admit to not knowing much about the OKC jazz scene on 2nd street, but, then again, how much can you tell me about the Rush Street, Bronzeville or North Side scenes in Chicago? I'm more than happy to check out Ellison's essays on OKC. I love this music and I won't be satisfied until I know everything about every aspect of it. Can you say the same? If jazz isn't going to be hurt or saved by collegiate jazz education, then what are you planning on studying in college anyway? Serious question here, I would really like to know.

A large part of this music is understanding what the people who created it, did live through. What you live through in suburban white Illonois is irrelevant. The music is not about you.

Of course the music is about understanding what came before you, I've said that numerous times, and I agree with you on it. But, the second you play one note on a bandstand, it is about you too. What you bring to the legacy, and the story you tell. That goes for you champ, Pharaohrock, Dave Douglas, Kenny Garrett and me. If you have no story to tell, then you have nothing to add, and if you have nothing to add, you have no right to play. And I can only wish that I was in "white suburban Illinois." Ask before you speak, and know before you expound.

The last time you saw 52nd street, you forgot something very important -- the clubs moved to other parts of the city, but NYC is still the jazz mecca for a reason.

The real question is, why should electricity have a place in Jazz? It wasn't there in the beginning.

Bluegrass aficianados say roughly the same thing. If Bill Monroe didn't do it, then it's not Bluegrass. When Sam Bush came around, improvising in a far more linear style, people flipped out. He couldn't get gigs at Bluegrass festivals for years. But what he was doing wasn't outside the tradition, it simply stretched it. When David Grisman came along, things got worse. What was he doing? Bringing JAZZ into Bluegrass? How dare he!!! But, again, he wasn't destroying Bluegrass, he was expanding it. Then Bela Fleck came in, with, HOLY SHIT!!! An electric banjo! That bastard! How dare he! Even though what he was playing (at first, he later played some of the best fusion to be created in the 90's) was purely in the tradition, because he dared to experiment with the instrumentation, he was considered a heathen. I'm seeing a massive parallel here, Champ. Now, are we sophisticated jazz fans and musicians that want to see this music prosper, or are we a bunch of twangy moronic, ultra-unhip lame-asses? The stoicness of Bill Monroe or the innovation of Diz? You can only choose one, Champ, and that choice is absolute. Innovation or lameness, Champ?