New member - need suggestions for well-recorded Jazz CDs

[MickJagger]

Hello all, and thank you for showing interest in my thread! I have recently become interested in the music world of Jazz and I must say that it is incredible. I am currently in college and am taking a music course where we have been spending most of our time covering all of the beginning Jazz artists like Gertrude "Ma" Rainey, Bessie Smith, Blind Lemon Jefferson, and Robert Johnson. I can't say that their music does a whole lot for me but I am more intereseted in current Jazz music as opposed to the Classic style. So far I only have one favorite group: The David Brubeck Quartet. My favorite song is Take Five. Well, enough of the introduction, my main interest is in very well-recorded Jazz CDs. If you know of any recently recorded CDs that are recorded well, I would be interested in what you have to say about them. Thanks all and I look forward to your replies!

[Joel]

No styles or sub genres?...just any well recorded jazz albums?

I'm sure you are aware that Classic Jazz recordings are different than recent recordings so we can't really compare the two.
However there are some 80s "contempo" jazz albums that were remastered lately which are low volume sounding compared to recently recorded ones.

[MickJagger]

Thanks Joel, I am just looking for any recently recorded CDs by any Jazz performer/group that are well-recorded. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

[Pharaohrock]

Mick, check out Kenny Garrett's "Songbook" or "Black Hope." Also check out Wallace Roney: "Quintet." Either of these records should be available in the library.

[Coypu]

Check out some Allan Holdsworth, Metal Fatique, Road Games & Secretes are good albums to start with. sample song (http://galaxen.net/~coypu/musik/MX/Essentials/allan%20holdsworth%20-%2003%20devil%20take%20the%20hindmost.mp3)

[Pharaohrock]

Coypu, your time is up too.

How dare you come onto this site and consistently undermine its purpose through your posts (which is to promote the jazz art form.) You've got no respect at all son. It's one thing to tell us we're not openminded to death metal and ought to give it a shot, but it's quite another to consistently make statements that imply jazz is in fact, inferior to death metal, at a JAZZ forum.

But go and get out your Dungeons and Dragons set, buddy, because you ain't gonna be wasting your time here no mo. That's not a threat, that's a promise.

[jazzypaul]

Mick, out of curiosity, are you a sound engineering student or something? Just wondering.

Insofar as old school, great sounding recordings, check out the new RVG series that Blue Note is putting out.

For the new stuff, Metheny's stuff is always phenomenally recorded. As is the new album by the Bad Plus. It has a producer's touch to it, and it makes the album just that much cooler.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
Coypu, your time is up too.

How dare you come onto this site and consistently undermine its purpose through your posts (which is to promote the jazz art form.) You've got no respect at all son. It's one thing to tell us we're not openminded to death metal and ought to give it a shot, but it's quite another to consistently make statements that imply jazz is in fact, inferior to death metal, at a JAZZ forum.

But go and get out your Dungeons and Dragons set, buddy, because you ain't gonna be wasting your time here no mo. That's not a threat, that's a promise.

Allan Holdsworth belongs here just as much as your precious jazz artists. Atleast holdsworth have chops unlike others...

And this is a jazz forum, not a forum dedicated to praise jazz at all costs. Without self criticism you will never grow and if you think that everything in jazz is flawless then why evolve at all? You sound alot like Champjam in this case.

[jazzypaul]

And this is a jazz forum, not a forum dedicated to praise jazz at all costs. Without self criticism you will never grow and if you think that everything in jazz is flawless then why evolve at all? You sound alot like Champjam in this case.

Praise jazz at all costs? Coypu, you just spelled it all out, man. You really have no interest in this music. Of course we don't think this music is flawless, otherwise, there'd be nothing to discuss. But I don't think it's too much to expect the guy with the most posts to be an actual jazz fan. Yes, we need self-criticism, which we do a lot of here, not criticism from an outside source who doesn't understand the music. Show me that you know this music, show me that you understand its motives and its sources. Show me that you know anything about this music, and I'd be willing to lay off. But you can't and you won't. So it ends up being incomplete criticism. You want us to play fast and heavy music, without realizing that a tune like Chasin' the Trane already is. You want us to play with all sorts of effects pedals, without knowing that David Fiuczynski already does. You want jazz to be rough and atonal, obviously without ever having heard Cecil Taylor, Thelonious Monk, or even Duke Ellington (Duke's comping was crazy as shit). You want jazz to show anger and despair, without understanding the music of Mingus, Shepp or Marion Brown, who did it years ago, or Charles Gayle, who does it now. I'm not asking for unmitigated praise. What I am asking for is that you take some time to listen and learn. You criticize what you don't know. Which pisses us off, because we expect a certain level of understanding. If you don't know, you should ask. Instead, you only tell. You tell us that Suffocation is more intense or this band is faster or this band has more chops. Well, if we were interested, we'd go to your board. We're not. We're stuck listening to somebody go on and on and on about something he so very obviously knows nothing about. How can you not see why we might be so frustrated?

Allan Holdsworth belongs here just as much as your precious jazz artists. Atleast holdsworth have chops unlike others...

Holdsworth's only REAL contribution to jazz happened almost 30 years ago in the Tony Williams Lifetime. There, he showed fire, panache, groove and attitude. Much of what he's done since has more chops than most people know what to do with. But it sounds like syndicated TV background music. People have said many many things about Holdsworth, but not too many people ever accused him of having good taste.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul Praise jazz at all costs? Coypu, you just spelled it all out, man. You really have no interest in this music. Of course we don't think this music is flawless, otherwise, there'd be nothing to discuss. But I don't think it's too much to expect the guy with the most posts to be an actual jazz fan. Yes, we need self-criticism, which we do a lot of here, not criticism from an outside source who doesn't understand the music. Show me that you know this music, show me that you understand its motives and its sources. Show me that you know anything about this music, and I'd be willing to lay off. But you can't and you won't. So it ends up being incomplete criticism. You want us to play fast and heavy music, without realizing that a tune like Chasin' the Trane already is. You want us to play with all sorts of effects pedals, without knowing that David Fiuczynski already does. You want jazz to be rough and atonal, obviously without ever having heard Cecil Taylor, Thelonious Monk, or even Duke Ellington (Duke's comping was crazy as shit). You want jazz to show anger and despair, without understanding the music of Mingus, Shepp or Marion Brown, who did it years ago, or Charles Gayle, who does it now. I'm not asking for unmitigated praise. What I am asking for is that you take some time to listen and learn. You criticize what you don't know. Which pisses us off, because we expect a certain level of understanding. If you don't know, you should ask. Instead, you only tell. You tell us that Suffocation is more intense or this band is faster or this band has more chops. Well, if we were interested, we'd go to your board. We're not. We're stuck listening to somebody go on and on and on about something he so very obviously knows nothing about. How can you not see why we might be so frustrated?

Well your problem is that you assume than Mingus must be more emotional than say Burzum eventhough you never heard Burzum. I have heard both and I can give my opinion on the subject. You say that some is fast and I show you very obvious examples than Suffocation actually are faster and so forth. Sometimes you just need to accept the fact that other genres than jazz have something that they are best at.

Holdsworth's only REAL contribution to jazz happened almost 30 years ago in the Tony Williams Lifetime. There, he showed fire, panache, groove and attitude. Much of what he's done since has more chops than most people know what to do with. But it sounds like syndicated TV background music. People have said many many things about Holdsworth, but not too many people ever accused him of having good taste.

Thanks for telling me your opinion but I disagree in this case.

[valo]

Great work, guys. Jagger came here to learn more about jazz and ends up sparking another tirade. It's no wonder people consider jazz listeners to be on the snobby side.

For what its worth, and if you are still listening Jagger, I agree with Jazzypaul that the RGV Blue Note series is worth checking out.

For more modern jazz thatis well-recorded, check ECM. They take a more classical approach to recording (lots of space and plentyof separation). Try Bobo Stenson's "Serenity" or Dave Holland's "Not for Nothin'".

Try the Impulse label. I've always liked the warm, rough-edged feel they recorded Coltrane with (as well as Shepp, Mingus, etc.)

[jazzypaul]

Coypu -- the worst part is, musically, I'm the closest thing you've got to a comrade on this board. I've listened to the Burzum stuff you've posted, and it's no more emotional than Mingus, to be sure. Your speed argument doesn't hold up either. Sheer bpm wins every time. And when you throw in the improvisational factors that you never comment on (the fact that bass players will change their lines on the spot to match the soloist -- playing subs, chord inversions, not to mention triplet patterns and the occasional ostinato), you see that yes, the DM guy may play more subdivisions of the chord, but the chords aren't changing as quickly, and they certainly aren't thinking as quickly. Don't tell me I haven't listened. I've been subjected to Morbid Angel and Deicide, I've enjoyed Messhugah, Cynic and the Dillinger Escape Plan and I've laughed along with AC. I know what and who you're talking about, and take it from a guy who knows. Your boys are different. Not better. And not faster.

As for Holdsworth, as annoying as it is, I'd rather hear you talk about him than the Death Metal guys in here, so go nuts.


But still, Coypu, you don't know jazz and you're not willing to come to it on its own terms. Answer me this: What do you possibly bring to the table?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by valo
Great work, guys. Jagger came here to learn more about jazz and ends up sparking another tirade. It's no wonder people consider jazz listeners to be on the snobby side.

Well, once again THEY started it by attacking me for recomending a jazz artist. I do my best nowadays to stay in the box but oh well.

[jazzypaul]

Valo -- what do you suggest then? Coypu was BANNED here and still wouldn't leave. Expect us to be pissed.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Coypu -- the worst part is, musically, I'm the closest thing you've got to a comrade on this board. I've listened to the Burzum stuff you've posted, and it's no more emotional than Mingus, to be sure. Your speed argument doesn't hold up either. Sheer bpm wins every time. And when you throw in the improvisational factors that you never comment on (the fact that bass players will change their lines on the spot to match the soloist -- playing subs, chord inversions, not to mention triplet patterns and the occasional ostinato), you see that yes, the DM guy may play more subdivisions of the chord, but the chords aren't changing as quickly, and they certainly aren't thinking as quickly. Don't tell me I haven't listened. I've been subjected to Morbid Angel and Deicide, I've enjoyed Messhugah, Cynic and the Dillinger Escape Plan and I've laughed along with AC. I know what and who you're talking about, and take it from a guy who knows. Your boys are different. Not better. And not faster.

As for Holdsworth, as annoying as it is, I'd rather hear you talk about him than the Death Metal guys in here, so go nuts.

But still, Coypu, you don't know jazz and you're not willing to come to it on its own terms. Answer me this: What do you possibly bring to the table?

Well just stop being anal when I post about fusion and you'll see how nice things can be. I like you despite your flaws so give me some slack and things will be just fine.

Sure jazzplayers improvise and that takes skill but they are still slower than DM players and the reason is just because they improvsise. DM have choosen to be able to play technical and fast while jazzplayers have choosen to play slow and freeform. Neither way is better but DM players put out more notes per second. End of story.

I bring an outside view and worship to fusion, you guys never seem to post about the artists I do so my presence here is needed.

[jazzypaul]

I'll stop being "anal" and you shut up with your little digs on jazz. We really never need to hear anything about Death Metal EVER again.

And as for your talk of fusion, there's a reason why I've never met a jazz fan that liked both Bird and Al DiMiola, but I've seen plenty of Rush freaks that love Tribal Tech. It's simply not jazz. It's great progressive rock. It's phenomenal progressive rock, but where's the jazz in there? Where's the feeling of the blues? Where's the swing? NOWHERE! Why, you ask? Because it's not jazz. Plain and simple. (Before you bring out the quote, remember that I was speaking about projects like the Byrd/Mizell albums, Miles' late 60's/early 70's work, Gary Burton's first fusion group and the like. They had everything to do with jazz...)

So, answer me again, Coypu, what do you bring to the table in a discussion about JAZZ?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I'll stop being "anal" and you shut up with your little digs on jazz. We really never need to hear anything about Death Metal EVER again.

And as for your talk of fusion, there's a reason why I've never met a jazz fan that liked both Bird and Al DiMiola, but I've seen plenty of Rush freaks that love Tribal Tech. It's simply not jazz. It's great progressive rock. It's phenomenal progressive rock, but where's the jazz in there? Where's the feeling of the blues? Where's the swing? NOWHERE! Why, you ask? Because it's not jazz. Plain and simple. (Before you bring out the quote, remember that I was speaking about projects like the Byrd/Mizell albums, Miles' late 60's/early 70's work, Gary Burton's first fusion group and the like. They had everything to do with jazz...)

So, answer me again, Coypu, what do you bring to the table in a discussion about JAZZ?

Fusion is fusion, bands like Tribal Tech sounds very jazzy compared to Dream Theater. Or just listen to Petricci playing a solo and compare it with Allan Holdsworth, the differance is enourmous, the song structures are way different, most prog rock is riff based while holdsworth play mostly over chord changes and so forth. You of all people should know this.

[Pharaohrock]

Allen Holdsworth is about as much of a jazz artist as Coypu is a jazz fan. Not much. Please leave Coypu. I have a friend here in Ohio that you can chat with online who's into so much of the same stuff you are, if you're this desperate for conversation.

[Pharaohrock]

Message me and I'll get you his email address. Maybe you guys can start your own Yahoo newsgroup and share this kind of information with others....

[Coypu]

No thanks, I already know people who have my taste in music so I'm fine.

[Pharaohrock]

So why do you spend so much time here then? You obviously don't really want to learn about jazz, and furthermore- isn't there any more you could learn about the music that you DO like?? Maybe that's the problem- the whole metal scene doesn't run very deep......

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Pharaohrock
So why do you spend so much time here then? You obviously don't really want to learn about jazz, and furthermore- isn't there any more you could learn about the music that you DO like?? Maybe that's the problem- the whole metal scene doesn't run very deep......

I have learned alot about jazz since I came here and I want to learn more.

well I talk about metal alot, goto this thread : http://www.musicianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16816

Now that is a forum that once was strictyl pop and rock and now it has ALOT of prog, fusion and death metal. Such things brings you more faith in humanity.

[jazzypaul]

That ain't gonna happen here. If it gives you less faith in humanity, so be it. It's a jazz thread. And look! It's even called ALL ABOUT JAZZ!!!!! WOOOO!

[jazzypaul]

What do you really hope to learn? You haven't asked one freakin question since you've been here, man! If you want to learn, you need to ask questions, and then shut up and learn. You have done neither one.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
What do you really hope to learn? You haven't asked one freakin question since you've been here, man! If you want to learn, you need to ask questions, and then shut up and learn. You have done neither one.

I asked about Zorn, I asked about the definition of swing and I have downloaded lots and lots of jazz music. So you're wrong.

[jazzypaul]

No, you didn't ask about Zorn, I told you about Zorn. You've stolen lots of jazz music from people who worked hard to get their music out to the world, but you haven't heard it or listened to it. If you had heard what was going on on most of the tunes you stole, you would have been amazed. And if you actually listened to it, you would be saying things worth reading. Instead, you listen to Death Metal, and can appreciate things about it that a lot of people here don't. But if you're going to post at a jazz forum, you really should spend some time listening and hearing the music that you're talking about. If you're calling Mingus and Monk smooth, you haven't heard a thing.

[MickJagger]

Thanks everybody for their input about my thread. However, I am sorry that it escalated to a large argument. I have no one to blame for that but myself. If it helps anyone narrow down any certain performers/groups, I really don't care a whole lot for Blues or any other genres under Jazz. I am not saying that Blues or any other genre is bad in any way! I just prefer more current Jazz-type music at this point. I also have a few questions for those that are still interested in this thread. What is RGV Blue Note series and ECM? If you know, please explain in a reply because I have no idea what these are. Also, in response to jazzypaul, I am not a sound engineering student, actually, I am studying to be an Optometrist. The reason I am asking about the well-recorded albums is because I have a very in-depth stereo system. I really like music that is clean and really brings the life out of my speakers. Also, one final note, I do not have the ability to play LPs or SACD/HDCD, so if the album you are recommending is only on one of these formats, please let me know. Thanks again everybody!

[jazzypaul]

Mick--as an avid audiophile myself, I was wondering, what kind of system do you have? I have a Harmon Kardon 2-channel (never got into the surround thing), a Sony MD recorder, NAD CD player and tape deck (OLD SCHOOL!!!) and Yamaha monitor speakers, second hand from an old studio control board.

RVG -- stands for Rudy Van Gelder, the guy who produced most of the 50's/60's sessions for Prestige and Blue Note, and more than a few for Impulse. He's still in demand to this day. Anyway, Rudy himself has taken to re-engineering these albums, and the new re-issues sound great.

ECM -- The leading European jazz label. Manfred Eicher has nailed down an "ECM Sound" so to speak that is about as clean and crisp as it gets -- almost to the point of it being cold. Thusly, the best and most vibrant ECM CD's sound breathtaking (Dave Holland, Tomasz Stanko), while others have a tendancy to sound stale and sad (Anne Peacock). I'd start with the Dave Holland and Keith Jarrett sides. They sound great and the music is phenomenal.

As for the argument -- I apologize on behalf of the entire forum. We've been trying to drag Coypu out to the street for a couple of months now. He gets into a thread and all hell breaks loose. My advice to you upfront is this: Put him on ignore.

[Joel]

ESC Records
http://www.esc-records.de/public/index_en.html

I have albums of Dennis Chambers, Victor Bailey, Jim Beard, Dean Brown, Joe Zawinul and Bill Evans (sax) and the recording sounds great in my stereo.

However, I dont have an audiophile system so you will have to be the judge. You can try purchasing them in a store that has a return/exchange so you can change it if you dont like the recording or the music.

The albums of the artists listed above are in the contempo/fusion/world style.

[MickJagger]

In response to jazzypaul, my system currently consists of a Kenwood VR-307 500-Watt AV Surround Receiver, a Kenwood CD-204 Multiple CD Player, all wired with Monster Cable. The equipment is low-end right now, I know, but I am getting a Sony VR555 ES AV receiver this summer which is a really cool receiver if you have ever played with one before! Also, I have a good hook-up on a Sony SACD/DVD ES player that I might get this summer as well which would complement the receiver nicely. As for speakers, I am using Infinity IL40s as my fronts, an Infinity BU-120 250-Watt, 12-in powered subwoofer, and an Infinity IL36c as my center channel. I don't currently have any surround speakers but I will probably purchase a pair of the bookshelf speakers that go with my speaker set like the Infinity IL10s. As soon as I get done with college, I'll probably invest a small fortune in a better high-end system, but for now since I am in college, I don't have that kind of money :( . On another note jazzypaul, a REALLY BIG reason that I love well-recorded music is that I am a big fan of listening to music with headphones. Right now, I have a pair of Grado SR125s and I LOVE them! The funny thing is, is that I REALLY want to get a pair of their best headphones, the RS1s. They retail for around $700 a pair but they are worth it! Well, enough of the audiophile chit-chat. We'll talk to you all later and thanks for all of your input! :)

[jazzypaul]

Mick -- my suggestion for your Audiophile needs...if you're in the price range of the Sony ES stuff, check out Luxman, NAD and Carver too. There's a reason you can only find that stuff at audiophile stores. Because it's the bomb. And for what you're getting, the prices are outstanding. Mate those through some monster cable to a set of Klipsch 350-400 watt speakers, and you may need to change your pants. Might I also suggest too, unless you're big into the movie thing, which changes things a bit (I actually have two separate systems...NOW THAT'S A GEEK!!!), I'd suggest going the two channel route, especially if you're listening to a lot of jazz. Most jazz, even nowadays, is recorded and mixed down to two track, and on the surround systems, it makes everything seem out of place, especially if you're listening to one of those Miles' 60's quintet re-issues (also another great choice for audiophile level listening). As far as the headphones go, I agree completely. Headphone listening is a beautiful thing. Off the jazz end of things, Two From the Vault, by the Dead was actually produced for headphone listening. And it IS cool in that aspect.

[3pointdeli]

sorry to be late to the party.

this is really pathetic, guys. quit picking fights with coypu. he's obviously not leaving, so why not just ignore him. jumping on him every time he posts smacks of insecurity. he had every right to suggest alan holdsworth on this thread, since no parameters other than "recent", "well recorded" and "jazz" were given.

by the way, coypu, on another thread (which i can't find now since i've been away for a few days) you asked if i could name a track from tony williams' lifetime. i'm not too good with song names (i prefer to listen to albums rather than individual songs), so i'll reccomend the entire first two albums: "emergency" and "turn it over."

[MickJagger]

jazzypaul, thanks for your suggestions! It's nice to know someone that likes the high-end equipment as much as I do! I TOTALLY see where you are coming from on the whole receiver thing, but here's the deal, my dad recently purchased that Sony ES receiver (I think it's the 2nd best one they made in the ES series!) and he already wants to get into separates. He got a killer deal on the Sony, I think he paid $500 for it brand new when it retails for over $1000! I know that there are easily BETTER receivers than that one, but I really don't have the kind of money now for something THAT expensive. In fact, my dad has an older Luxman model receiver but it is not AV. So, I figured I would pick up his Sony receiver for around $400 since he's had it for about a year now, add a SACD player with it for around $300 and go from there. I am really into the whole surround sound phase, especially for movies, but I agree that alot of true audiophiles are big on the 2-channel music listening, and I think that's great, IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY. If there are any other audiophiles who happen to read in this thread, let me know some of your tastes as far as equipment and spekaers go. Thanks everybody! :cool:

[omar zamora]

Mick,

ECM is known for its 'sound', which is a bit controversial. Their goal has been to match the available recording quality in classical music to Jazz (although they record classical music, too).

At its best, it's crystal clear and full of detail, but at its worse it can sound icy cold. A lot of it depends on the musician. Anyway, after you listen to jazz for a while, you'll become familiar with the ECM 'sound', as you probably will with Blue Note and many others.

I'm no audiophile, but for my money, the best sound quality can be found in the Hat familiy of labels (ie, hatOLOGY for recent Jazz recordings, and Hat Art for their older recordings). The quality of the music is also outstanding, imo.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
sorry to be late to the party.

this is really pathetic, guys. quit picking fights with coypu. he's obviously not leaving, so why not just ignore him. jumping on him every time he posts smacks of insecurity. he had every right to suggest alan holdsworth on this thread, since no parameters other than "recent", "well recorded" and "jazz" were given.

by the way, coypu, on another thread (which i can't find now since i've been away for a few days) you asked if i could name a track from tony williams' lifetime. i'm not too good with song names (i prefer to listen to albums rather than individual songs), so i'll reccomend the entire first two albums: "emergency" and "turn it over."

Well you are perfectly correct but you can't appeal to them with logic so its a lost cause.

I'm going to try and find thoose albums, thanks.

-----------------------------------------------

Since the speaker deal came up. Does anyone know what the really huge Infinity speakers are called? I checked their website but I couldn't find them anywhere. My friends father have a home movie set and he has some serious stuff in there. He has probably blown $20.000 in total by now so it sounds like all hells breaks out when I play death metal there...

[3pointdeli]

i think you'll like those, coypu. they won't hold up to death metal criteria for aggression, rage, etc., but they are raging and aggressive nevertheless. also, since you're a big holdsworth fan you should know that the two i named have mclaughlin on guitar. holdsworth was in the second (or third, depending on how you look at it) line-up.

[lkaven]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
[...]
Holdsworth's only REAL contribution to jazz happened almost 30 years ago in the Tony Williams Lifetime. There, he showed fire, panache, groove and attitude. Much of what he's done since has more chops than most people know what to do with. But it sounds like syndicated TV background music. People have said many many things about Holdsworth, but not too many people ever accused him of having good taste.

In a subsequent Downbeat interview, Tony Williams complained about Holdsworth, saying that he didn't have any idea how to play *with* the band, and just seemed to be just playing over everyone else.

Luke

[lkaven]

Originally posted by MickJagger
jazzypaul, thanks for your suggestions! It's nice to know someone that likes the high-end equipment as much as I do! [...]

Enjoy your high-end audio equipment. But it is worth learning how to hear historic recordings, if one has any interest in knowing about the music. I scarcely know a musician who won't eat up a wire recording if the music is there. After a while, the fidelity doesn't matter, just the music. When you need the fidelity fix, it's always there for you.

Luke