Request: Avant Garde Recommendations

[Joel]

I already like Matthew Shipp but would like to add more artists to my collection.

Guitars and or keys are my preference although the sax is fine as long as its part of a band and not the main instrument.
It would be nice if you can rate its "level of extremity" 1 being the lowest and 5 the highest...if you dont want to, that's ok.
Thanks.

Fire away!

[bombastic]

Art Ensemble Of Chicago-Selected Recordings-ECM-wildness level-3 and a half. Sonny Sharrock- i've heard of him, but i haven't heard him-i think he's pretty wild guitarist.

[omar zamora]

Joel,

I don't even know where to start, but I'll assume that you're not very familiar with the so-called avant garde (if I'm wrong, apologies in advance). What was called 'avant garde' in, say, 1959 (Ornette, early Cecil, Sun Ra) has in many cases become part of the mainstream. Even the 'New Thing' of the 60's (Archie Shepp, Marion Brown, Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor Unit, late-period Coltrane, etc) is not quite what I'd call avant garde today.

It just so happens that Bombastic mentioned the AEC, which is probably my favorite group of all time. I haven't heard that recording, which is a compilation, but I think it contains some of their later ECM work, which is not quite as essential, imo (though I dig it). My Art Ensemble recommendation would be either "Bapti-zum" or "Fanfare for the Warrior". It's loud, quiet, humorous, raucous, everything at once.

Guitars or keys you say? Hmm, well Sonny Sharrock does play a mean guitar, though I'm not all that knowledgeable of his work. "Ask the Ages" seems to be well-liked. Also his work in Last Exit (with Peter Brotzmann, Bill Laswell, and Ronald Shannon Jackson). The latter is waaay 5. Extreme as all hell! Free-fucking-jazz.

Derek Bailey is a major name as far as non-idiomatic improvisation is concerned. However, his style is not for everyone. It's hard to describe him unless you hear him. Almost all the outcats I know have a great deal of respect for Bailey and his work, but a lot of them don't really listen to him too much (I call it the John Cage Syndrome). My favorite album of his is a solo work called "Improvisation", but I wouldn't recommend it for starters. For "extreme" Bailey, I'd go for one of the early Peter Brotzmann recordings, such as "Nipples" or "Machinegun". For more subtle Bailey, there's a recent recording with bassist Joelle Leandre that I dig quite a bit.

You said you liked Matthew Shipp? I'd recommend something by the David S Ware Quartet. His "Corridors and Parallels" is quite excellent. Avoid his last major-label Columbia album - snoozefest. The recordings with Susie Ibarra on the kit are the best, though.

But enough chit-chat. Get something by Cecil Taylor. Preferably not too early. Maybe "Unit Structures" is a good place to start. After that, come back and I'll recommend some later stuff (hint: avoid "Momentum Space". I love all three musicians on it, but it just didn't work for me)

And I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't recommend something by Sun Ra. Start with "The Heliocentric Worlds, vol 1". If you like that, ask for more.

Not a big reeds fan? I'll skip Evan Parker, Peter Brotzmann, Albert Ayler, etc for now. I'll come back, though :)

As you might have imagined by now, this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I could go on and on naming names, but I'll just stop there. If any of this interests you, lemme know and I'll offer some more suggestions.

The ones I've mentioned so far are just 'top of my head' ideas. I haven't really thought it through. But I'll also throw in a few that are good starters for folks trying to dig avant garde jazz, free improvisation, free jazz, or whatever.

Thomas Chapin - Sky Piece. The only bad thing is that after you hear it, you'll want to get the box set with his entire Knitting Factory output
Clusone 3 - anything you can find. A fun group, definitely in the Dutch tradition.
DKV Trio - Live in Wels/Chicago


Anyway, if you want more, just holler.

[jazzypaul]

Omar -- skip early Cecil? No way man. Jazz Advance is a killer side. Yeah, it's a bit more mainstream, but what he does on Bemsha Swing alone is one for the ages. He starts off from stride and goes through the entire history of jazz piano up to 1957 in his solo. It may not be as avant garde as out as the rest of his catalog, but it's most definitely some interesting music. I highly recommend it. On the extremity scale, I give it a 2.5.

[Joel]

Omar, your right I dont know much about it (AG) but have seen and heard most the Legends that were mentioned.

I guess I refer to those legends as "Classic Jazz" having been blended into mainstream jazz and what I really was after are contemporary artists that still plays AG. I'll probably start with a few legends like Cecil Taylor and Sun Ra.

I already like the names, "Art Ensemble Of Chicago (thanks bombastic), Clusone and DKV Trio". Like I said, I'm band centric rather that a "front man" person.

I'll probably start with "A Sign Of 4" as far as Bailey is concerned and a lot of online previewing of his other releases.

Sonny Sharrock - Ask The Ages, I'll remember that.

I've always like live albums (being concert deprived) so the DKV Trio sounds good.

Thanks for all your replies. I'll go for the ones that were listed here prior to this post.

[Coypu]

Try some Fredrik Thordendal, the main instrument is guitar, drums and keys so you could like it. Extremity level is about 3.

[bombastic]

Corridors and Parallels, Wisdom of Uncertainty, Freedom Suite. Matthew Shipp-New Orbit.

[3pointdeli]

unfortunately, "ask the ages" is out of print, but it can still be found without too much trouble (try the downtown music gallery in nyc.) it is indeed a killer album. i'd give it an extreme factor of 3.5. his earlier stuff is available again. some of this stuff is a 5..."black woman"...sheesh!

if you want guitar, check out nels cline. his work ranges from very tame to very extreme (usually on the same album...as it should be, imo.) his latest release is "instrumentals" by the nels cline singers. he's played on dozens of records as a sideman, and also has dozens of releases under his own name. all the ones i've heard are great.

also check out marc ribot and joe morris. both of them do some nice playing.

for keys, i'd get all those sick herbie hancock records. (mwandishi, crossings, sextant, etc.) also, any of the electric miles. i don't know about any current keyboard players, so i'm no help there.

listen to a band called henry cow. fred frith was their guitarist. they had keys, too. it may or may not be jazz (depending on who you ask), but they are great.

[3pointdeli]

oh yeah, buy wayne shorter's "super nova." it has sonny sharrock AND john mclaughlin. AND keys! the only bad part is that i get tired of the soprano sax.

[omar zamora]

Paul, I love early Cecil. I'm not suggesting he skip it altogether, but rather start with some "late early" stuff, like the Blue Notes, and then move forward and back.

Joel, I sorta hear what you're saying about contemporary musicians. I should clarify what I said earlier - some of the innovations of the earlier musicians have been incorporated into the mainstream, but not all. Even though Cecil gets space in the glossies, not many have taken his music further. Everybody wants to be influenced by Ornette nowadays, but not many in the mainstream have accepted Ayler.

Oh yeah, Nels Cline. I loves me my Nels Cline. I second the rec for "Instrumentals". If you can find his tribute to Coltrane's "Interstellar Space" with Gregg Bendian, that's higly recommended (Bendian, you might notice, is one of the drummers on that Bailey/Metheny recording you're interested in). Or his monster guitar workout "Destroy All Nels Cline". Definitely a great modern improvisor.

There are way too many Ribot dates to mention, but one of my favorites is Big Satan with Tim Berne and Jim Black.

Speaking of Tim Berne, you might dig "The Shell Game". Yes, Berne is a sax player, but that album has some killer synth/electronics work by Craig Taborn.

Another one with some awesome Craig Taborn work is Mat Maneri's "Sustain".

Here's one out of left field: Otomo Yoshihide New Jazz Quartet Live. Anyone who visits jazzcorner.com knows that I'm a big fan of Yoshihide's non-jazz improvised work. In fact, his jazz constitutes a very small part of what he's done. Nevertheless, this is a killer album, and it's not all that extreme. Yoshihide plays guitar on this one. It might be hard to find, though.

[3pointdeli]

nels cline is on a newly released album by his n.c. singers bandmate, scott amendola. the cd is called "cry", and is great. low on the extreme scale...1.5 - 2.0. it's nice to hear the softer side of nels...not that he doesn't wail on some tracks. there is some killer violin playing from jenny scheinman, too. all around, it's a great cd with great playing from everyone.

joel, by "keys" did you mean keyboards (as in electric keyboards and such) or piano and/or keys? or just piano? how about some mallet/keyboard playing...vibraphone, xylophone, etc.? if you dig that check out bobby hutcherson. gregg bendian is supposed to be great in this area as well (but i've only heard him on drums.)

[Joel]

I tried searching for some of the names last night at our local jazz store but couldnt find any, I may have to get them online.
Previewed Matthew Shipp's "By The Law Of Music" but kinda got bored with the solo improvs, I think I only liked Nu Bop and Equilibrium (I dont own both but previewed them).
Preview Bailey's Arcana "The Last Wave" but I was really after "Mirakle".

Forgot to check Cecil Taylor but Sun Ra is always popular.

3pointdeli,
I use the term "keys" to include piano,organ, acoustic and electric,rhodes,synths.
I like the vibes too and somewhat of a fan of Gary Burton.

[omar zamora]

Joel,

Have you heard samples from Shipp's new one "Matthe Shipp vs Anti-Pop Consortium"? I believe this might be APC's last recording before they broke up (bummer). (APC is a hip-hop group, btw).

I haven't, but I'm interested. I thought the DJ Spooky album (produced under Shipp's wing - he's the a&r guy for Thirsty Ear's Blue Series) had its moments, but Spooky wasn't at his best, and the improvisors were a bit stifled.

[lazy bird]

A few days ago I saw Anthony Braxton perform and I really liked it. Can anyone recommend me some essential Braxton Albums?

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by lazy bird
A few days ago I saw Anthony Braxton perform and I really liked it. Can anyone recommend me some essential Braxton Albums?

Lazy bird,

Who was he playing with? Do you know if he was working within the context of ghost trance music? I ask because that makes a difference on what I recommend. If you're new to Braxton, there's no way I'd recommend any of the recent GTM (which I love, but not a good place to start).

Without knowing anything else, I'd say you have to (HAVE TO) get Quartet (Dortmund) 1976. Absolutely essential.

Any of the 80's-early 90's quartet recordings you can find (with Hemingway, Dresser, and Crispell) are worth getting. Especially Willisau and Santa Cruz. And yes, both are impossible to get. However, the three Leo recordings (Brmingham, London, Coventry) have recently been reissued.

Caveat: they're twofers and yes they're kinda pricy.

For early essential dates, there's Dave Holland's "Conference of the Birds" (with Barry Altschul and Sam Rivers!), which is absolutely, positively essential for any Jazz listener. Also, Circle's "Paris Concert". Then there's Braxton's first solo saxophone recording (and possibly the first by anyone) "For Alto"

[Nils]

Originally posted by Joel
I already like the names, "Art Ensemble Of Chicago (thanks bombastic), Clusone and DKV Trio". Like I said, I'm band centric rather that a "front man" person.[/B]

the vandermark 5 are solid, and they have that nice bulky small group sound. they put out a recording of FREE JAZZ CLASSICS recently that serves excellently as an introduction to the free jazz tradition and a way of understanding how one group can interpret a wide variety of material and retain its own singular identity. it's hard to recommend this record enough, especially to someone who's relatively new (and enthusiastic) about out jazz.

as far as groups, clusone is way up top on the list. they have a shared mindset that's most unusual. centered around "pieces" but always twisting and tugging and hitting things from different angles. humor everywhere. michael moore is a wonderfully lyrical sax player who, when he hits melodies, makes them magical. ernst reijseger is a deviant, pure and simple. plays the cello like a guitar, like a bass, like a cello. lots of dadaism, but he knows how to work together. and han bennink, enough said, he can swing like a motherfucker but nothing keeps him from taking things out. when there's a detour or interlude, they almost always find a surprising way of working things out.

I'll probably start with "A Sign Of 4" as far as Bailey is concerned and a lot of online previewing of his other releases.
[/B]
dude, you're leaping right into the fire. that is one very difficult recording. first of all, it's a multi disc set. that's a lot of cash for a first impression. there's one disc (crimson?) which is pure all-out electronic noise. that's one of the most difficult recordings on the planet. bailey recently did a nice ballads record and his solo and duo work is much more readily accessible. i usually recommend the record WIREFORKS he did with henry kaiser (on shanachie). it's completely honest and not at all hard to dig (heavily).

[omar zamora]

I'll second "Wireforks". Haven't heard the ballad cd on Tzadik, but I'd imagine that's not a good place to start for Bailey, since it's not really representative of most of his work.

[Joel]

I now have Bailey's Mirakle.

how come nobody mentioned it? its great since its got that sorta "steady funky beat" from Tacuma and Weston.
After encoding the CD to mp3 at work, I started listening to it and while I was "in the groove" (yeah its happens in avant garde too :D )
I pulled out my headphones from my puter and upped the volumed, people started protesting next and one threw a plastic drink bottle at me :D.....distortion is sweeeeeet.

it seems I now know the "avant garde" that I'm after..its sounds nice when accompanied by rhythm and beats. Its probably why it was easier for me to appreciate Shipp's Equilibrium due to the accompanyment.

Sonny Sharrock's Ask The Ages is begging to be heard but my stereo is preoccupied with my first Bailey and my first Tzadik release.

Nels Cline is a name I hear quite often, I'll keep him in mind.

[3pointdeli]

mirakle. i've heard that one. i thought it was a james "blood' ulmer record until i found out who it really was. calvin weston plays on that, as you mentioned, and he's also on the ulmer records i've got ("black rock", "freelancing"...i think that's the name of the other one i have.) cool record.

if you're into the steady rhythmic thing and you want to check out nels cline i'd reccommend any of the nels cline trio records or the nels cline singers "instrumentals." stay away from "the inkling"...not because it isn't good, but because i don't think it's what you're looking for based on the steady rhythm criteria. "destroy all nels cline" has some stuff like that, too, but also a lot of non-steady, sort of meandering rhythms.

[omar zamora]

Joel, that's cool! That Bailey is one that I've wanted to get since it came out, but just never got around to it. As 3pointdeli mentioned, with that rhythm section it's probably reminiscent of James Blood Ulmer, who is another guy you might want to try. I recommend "Tales of Captain Black".

I'm curious - are you looking specifically for funkish rhythms or any sort of groove including straight 4/4 rock beat? There's a whole lot of free improv that is based on a strong rhythmic foundation, but one of the great things of avant garde rhythm sections is to spontaneously invent rhythmic variations that still push the music forward without being straightforward.

Which is why you need to get some Cecil :) Especially with Sunny Murray on drums.

Anyway, good to hear that you're digging this stuff. Take your time with it, let it sink in. Before you know it, we'll have you digging AMM :)

[valo]

Of those who have heard it, what do you think of Bailey's "Playbacks"? Does those freaky breakbeats work with Bailey's ejaculations (sorry, I am not sure what else to call his clipped, broken style of playing..)

[Joel]

Omar,

no specifics on beats really.

the write ups say "funk" or "funky", personally its not really the 70s Funk that I know of but more like "straight ahead style with a spin".

beats,rhythm and melody are all common factors in cjazz (contempo jazz) that I'm accustomed to, so I guess I tend to look for it on other genres.

Like you said, I also appreaciate spontaneous rhythmic variations and it does make the composition quite interesting rather than predictable.
However a long solo that I sometimes hear on free jazz improvs is not really what I'm after....how long is too long?...anything over 1:30 min. i guess :D

..maybe in the future but not now.

----------------

Update: been listening to Mirakle again....and I now feel da Funk.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Joel
However a long solo that I sometimes hear on free jazz improvs is not really what I'm after....how long is too long?...anything over 1:30 min. i guess :D

So I guess I should refrain from recommending late-period Coltrane or continuous hour-plus-long Cecil Taylor pieces...for now :)

Btw, rhythm, melody, and harmony are also common components of modern free improvisation. Depending on the musicians and the piece, they may be more or less emphasized.

I should clarify that free improvisation or free jazz do not equal avant garde. Avant garde is a lot more all-encompassing, and it also covers more composed music, too.

[Joel]

Originally posted by omar zamora
Avant garde is a lot more all-encompassing, and it also covers more composed music, too.

Ask The Ages just defined what you said.

I just loved the album after its first rotation half an hour ago.

A very varied album,even the track "Who Does She Hope to Be?" is a lovely melodic ballad (in an AG kinda way).
Then there's a another track that sound like a nice straight ahead piece, then another that reminds me of a Joe Satriani riff...a very interesting album indeed.

I just wished Mr Sharrock hadn't left us so soon.

-----------

Free Jazz and Avant Garde is definitely different, I learned that after previewing Matthew Shipp's By The Law Of Music and comparing it to Equilibrium.

As for the soloing, yeah before I found "Ask The Ages" 2 nights ago, I was also previewing Cecil Taylor's Unit Structures and another live album that I forgot the title, well to sum it up, I returned all both of them back to the shelf.

[omar zamora]

Up.

[Chuck Nessa]

Thanks for responding so quickly. I'm about to hit the sheets, and will check back tomorrow after reading the thread. If I forget, PM me.

[Donnybirdrhythm]

[i]
There are way too many Ribot dates to mention, but one of my favorites is Big Satan with Tim Berne and Jim Black.
[/B]

Hi all,

Just perusing the boards and noticed this. The Big Satan band is actually Berne (alto and bari) with Marc Ducret on guitar and Tom Rainey on Drums. That said, it's a fantastic album (an all-time fave of mine). It's called "I think they liked it, honey" and it's on Screwgun. I've heard, too, that the band will be releasing something on Thirsty Ear, a widely available label, later this year.

Joel, if you like Mirakle you might also like Massacre albums on Tzadik ("Funny Valentine" and "Meltdown"). Like Mirakle, the band has a deadly rhythm section (Bill Laswell on electric bass and Charles Hayward on drums), and is fronted by a legendary guitarist. Not as angular and jagged as as Bailey, Fred Frith is still wild and intense. Again like Mirakle, it's improvised and a couple of steps removed from jazz. Fun, funky stuff.

And since I'm on a power-trio wavelenghth, I'll throw in another couple guitar bass drum groups that I really dig.

Harriet Tubman (band name) features Brandon Ross (g) Melvin Gibbs (b) and J.T. Lewis (d). I can't recall album names, but I do recall that the one on Avant is better than the one on Knitting Factory.

Marc Ducret's "L'ombra di verdi" on Screwgun records is a wicked, alien, trip. Great acoustic bassist, Bruno Chevillon, and Eric Echampard, who I don't think I've heard anywhere else.

Power Tools, "Strange Meeting" (on Antilles), is, I think, out of print. But it's well worth tracking down. In 1987, Frisell wasn't showing much sign of mellowing out. Here, he smokes, bringing the goods with Melvin Gibbs and Ronald Shannon Jackson.

Another good Frisell is "Live" (1995) with Kermit Driscoll (b) and Joey Baron (d). Way wilder and way more fun than some of his recent stuff (though I like some of that too).

Finally, Ben Monder "Flux" on Songlines. Has Drew Gress on bass and the ever excitable and exciting Jim Black on drums. I haven't really seen much press about Monder, but he's a stunning guitarist.

And I'd feel bad for not plugging a stupendous date from the seventies: "Gateway" with John Abercrombie (g), Dave Holland (b) and Jack DeJohnette (d). Just a great, great album that doesn't sound too aged to me.



Back to the "harmelodic funk" tip, I really dig a particular album by Music Revelation Ensemble. It's called "Cross Fire" (DIW) and features Blood Ulmer (g), Calvin Jones (b), and Cornell W. Rochester (d), with a track by track alternation of Pharoah Sanders (tenor) and John Zorn (alto). This is a HEAVY album. I like other Ulmer stuff, but this one conjures up ghosts. Yeah!

I'm not sure if these recs all count as 'avant garde', but they're all heavy duty albums with some electricity and a direct relation, more or less or less obvious, to jazz.

Lots of other great recs that I'd second too, could go on all day about the AEC, Sun Ra, etc. but I thought I'd narrow my focus down to a theme.

Oh, and one more, that I can't resist adding, possibly right up your (Joel's, that is) alley: "Science Friction" on Screwgun, with Berne, Ducret, Rainey, and Craig Taborn on keys (additional sonic twiddling by David Torn). This was my favourite of last year, and it just screws me up.

(P.S. I also like the Fredrik Thordendal album that Copyu suggested, though I'd put it at a higher level of extremity than 3.5. It's more a kind of avant-metal sci-fi thingy, and becomes quite tedious at times due to a couple overlong, out-of-joint organ-playing sections, if I remember correctly. Quite weird.)

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Donnybirdrhythm
The Big Satan band is actually Berne (alto and bari) with Marc Ducret on guitar and Tom Rainey on Drums.

Oh shit, that's the second time I mixed those two up in the last few weeks. I dunno why - they're not really all that similar.

[J Larsen]

I'll give a second vote to James Ulmer's Tales of Captain Black feat. Ornette Coleman. I got turned on to this one by the folks at BNBB. Great album, recently reissued.

[Joel]

okay Mr Ulmer's name already came up, I'll check that out since I already saw several of his albums....(at first I thought he was pure funk :D )

Donny...

I have a few of John Abercrombie's Gateway CDs ( 2 i think) but I thought that was fusion?...or would that be a blend of both....but it can get "trippy" and well, lets just say, if youre not high, then you'll get bored.

Aren't Bill Frissell's compositions sort of trippy at times?

I hope your list are in the mid to up tempo range though I'm beginning to I think that Avant Garde is not really that sort in regards to beats...which Mr. Omar already explained ;)

I liked Mirakle because of the shredding rock and distortion guitar...and Sharrock's too really rips.

Bill Laswell's Arcana releases are cool too, I've previewed one but returned it (might get it back).

--------

David Ayers,

I hope your reading this, I read your post on another thread about your displeasure of those "semi-a.g." (its my term) compositions.

So what is an example, of a true and real avant garde jazz piece?...because i'd like to get my hand on one or two for my collection?

thanks again,y'all.

[Donnybirdrhythm]

Omar,

No biggy. They're both great guitarists.

Joel,

You're right that Gateway probably isn't AG. (AG is a pretty sticky term, and cover different ground depending on who you talk to. E.g. I don't really think of Shipp as AG.)

I was going with a theme (power-trios), and making speculations about other line-ups that you might like based on your digging of Mirakle.

All the bands I rec'd have aggressive drummers, though the albums may well vary in tempo (and when w/o tempo, they vary in 'heaviness').

A really shredding date from last year (I think) is "Scorch Trio" (Rune Grammofon) with Raoul Bjorkenheim (g), Ingebrigt Haker-Flaten (b) and Paal Nilssen-Love (d). I'm listening to this one right now -- I think you'd like it.

Re: Frisell. He's audibly changed direction over the past decade, going more for an Americana vibe, I think, but the above dates are a bit more 'avant' (especially the first). He was also a member of Naked City, though I've only heard him play metal licks on one album under his own name. (Come to think of it, have you heard Naked City?)

Of the albums I mentioned above, the Massacre albums are possibly the closest to Mirakle, if only for the groove that gets laid down. But, truly, Bailey's guitar style is unique, and though Frith is also 'out there' they really don't sound at all much like each other. Still, these are the CDs I tend to pull out when I'm in that particular mood.

Try for the Berne recs. Seriously. I doubt anyone would question their avant status, and they've got rhythm, intensity, and interaction out the ass. Wicked stuff.

Also, you really ought to check out Nels Cline. Of his recent work, alot of people seem to prefer "Instrumentals" on Cryptogramophone (another power trio!). It really does slay, but I like the Coltrane/Ali tribute, "Interstellar Space Revisited" and "Destroy All Nels Cline" (both on Atavistic) even more. They are both screamingly intense.

Another recent good one, is xmarsx (Atavistic). Heavy, Vandermarkish, rockish vibe fronted by Mars Williams and featuring Wayne Kramer (from MC5!)

Anyways, everything in this post definitely fits your "mid to up tempo range" stipulation.

[David Ayers]

Just a thought guys... I like these posts where people name check a lot of bands and musicians, but it would sure help me as a hasty browser if we put the names in bold just to make them easier to pick out. How about it?

[ralphie_boy]

Two ESP-Disk sessions that I highly recommend would be Marion Brown's first (Marion Brown Quartet, I believe it's called) and Charles Tyler's Eastern Man Alone.

Neither is too far out and pretty low on the noise quotent. Both are readily available again as well.

[Kerry]

What is your definition of avant-garde? Do you mean "atonal" music?

What makes a piece of music avant-garde?

FWIW, I think Satoko Fujii is a really interesting pianist/composer/arranger...she mixes elements of Cecil Taylor with Japanese folk music and beyond.

[Donnybirdrhythm]

I for one have no definition of AG. Hell, I barely know what atonal means.:confused: :p

But I sure do like what I've heard of Satoko Fujii (unfortunately only a couple albums -- got her new one, with the drummer from the Ruins coming in the mail).

Kerry, have you heard her "big band" albums? If so, how'd you like em? I've only heard her trio (with Mark Dresser, bass, and Jim Black, drums). Super trio!

[Kerry]

Actually, I heard her big band live several years ago and really enjoyed it. She used a great variety of instrumentations; there would be a piano trio section, a free blowing section with all of the horns, a Japanese folk song re-harmonized in a wild way...it was great.

[J Larsen]

Originally posted by ralphie_boy
Two ESP-Disk sessions that I highly recommend would be Marion Brown's first (Marion Brown Quartet, I believe it's called) and Charles Tyler's Eastern Man Alone.

Isn't that Brown date a bit hard to find these days? I used to see it around all the time, but once it had finally risen to the top of my shopping list it had vanished from the store shelves.

[3pointdeli]

speaking of *massakre* (how do you make things bold?...sorry, i'm really stupid) i'm only familiar with their first album, "killing time", which has fred maher on drums. it's pretty straightforward in the beat dep't. is the newer incarnation of *massakre* similar drumming-wise?

[Donnybirdrhythm]

Kerry,

Lucky!

3pointdeli,

I'm just learning how all these gadgets work, too. To make something bold , I think you have to hit the "B" button in the section called "vB code." I think you have to do this before you type whatever text you want emboldened. :)

It's actually kind of time-consuming. I'll likely forget to do it regularly, unless I can find an easier way to do it.

Re: Massacre. I haven't heard "Killing Time" in years, so I might not be the one to answer your question. I liked parts of that album a lot, but I seem to remember some pretty goofy stuff on it too. (Overdubs of pipes creaking and washing machines and stuff -- is this right?? And I don't really care for that aspect of Frith's work as much as his guitar thrashing stuff.)

Anyway, I recall that some of the tracks were really cool, quite short though -- almost like alien pop songs. The new stuff is more 'jammy' -- longer tunes, more stretched out, more of an improv feel. I can't compare Maher and Hayward directly, but will say that the latter is definitely enjoyable behind the kit.

(Edit: Upon reflection, when making comments about "Killing Time" I might have actually been thinking about an old Frith album, "Speechless". I think that it also had the old massacre trio on a few numbers. Shit, I can't remember. Anyone else know what the hell I'm talking about??)

(P.S. The Massacre recs might fit just as well in the "Instro Rock" thread. Though 'avantish' it's also kind of 'rockish' with moments of 'dubbishness' as well....)

[Kerry]

I did feel lucky to see her big band :)

She used to live in Boston, then New York, and now she's moved back to Japan with her trumpet-player husband, Natsuki Tamura.

[ralphie_boy]

Originally posted by J Larsen


Isn't that Brown date a bit hard to find these days? I used to see it around all the time, but once it had finally risen to the top of my shopping list it had vanished from the store shelves.

It's been e-released by ESP (Italy). Dusty Groove has it for $11.99. They also have it on 180g vinyl.

[3pointdeli]

>>>"(Edit: Upon reflection, when making comments about "Killing Time" I might have actually been thinking about an old Frith album, "Speechless". I think that it also had the old massacre trio on a few numbers. Shit, I can't remember. Anyone else know what the hell I'm talking about??)"<<<

i think this statement is correct. if there are samples of washing machines, etc. on "killing time" i haven't noticed them...that's not to say that they aren't there, though. i'll pull that one out for a fresh listen.

[D.D.]

Avante-garde... hmmm... if only I knew what it is...

I would suggest the mighty great Peter Brotzmann. The man has an extensive discography, and not everything is essential, but the best stuff is as avante as you can possibly garde... Mr. Brotzmann actually deserves an individual thread.

Anyway, I enthusiastically recommend 3CD set on OKKA DISK that (I think) is called 'Chicago Octet and Tentet' (or '...Tentet and Octet' - you got the idea).

It unites some of the most inventive and powerful musicians on the scene today (Vandermark, Joe McPhee, Kent Kessler, Hamid Drake, Michael Zerang, Matts Gustaffson, and some excellent trombonist(s) and cellist whose names escape me now). In addition to mighty (I mean, MIGHTY) blowing, you get some interesting (and diverse) compositions form all participants. AND, some really funky beats from TWO excellent drummers.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by D.D.
some excellent trombonist(s) and cellist whose names escape me now).

Jeb Bishop and Fred Lonberg-Holm, respectively, I think.

[Joel]

I've got two recently;

Funny Valentine - Massacre (Tzadik 1998)
I actually have this for a while now and was even contemplating on returning it since I thought its a bit "slow" for my ears but after a 3rd rotation today, its beginning to come alive. I think its more trippy rather than explosive. I cant find Killing Time, but this one does have some kick ass tracks.

Downtown Lullaby - John Zorn/Elliot Sharp/Bobby Previte/Wayne Horvitz (Depth of Field 1998)
I liked this one, nice all around band effort although All Music Guide wanted more out of them and gave em low rating of 2 1/2 out of 5 stars (3 1/2 for me)
:)

[Joel]

Radio - Naked City (Avant©1993)
Composed of John Zorn,Bill Frisell,Wayne Horvitz,Fred Frith,Joe Baron and Yamasuka Eye. This is where a like Bill Frisell where he plays a mean guitar. What caught my eye is the track, Sunset Surfer, kind of like 60s beach music that made me smile because its ironically "un-avant", in fact the entire album has a great deal of melody and rhythm as opposed to a traditionally improvisational AG album. I like this one a lot, every talented cast member has space to showcase their chops.

[FCJ]

Originally posted by Donnybirdrhythm
Finally, Ben Monder "Flux" on Songlines. Has Drew Gress on bass and the ever excitable and exciting Jim Black on drums. I haven't really seen much press about Monder, but he's a stunning guitarist.

If you like Ben Monder, I recommend the Frank Kimbrough CD "Noumena" on Soul Note. Monder is the guitarist, along with Kimbrough on piano, Scott Robinson on tenor/bass saxophone, and Tony Moreno on drums/percussion.

[D.D.]

Originally posted by FCJ


If you like Ben Monder, I recommend the Frank Kimbrough CD "Noumena" on Soul Note. Monder is the guitarist, along with Kimbrough on piano, Scott Robinson on tenor/bass saxophone, and Tony Moreno on drums/percussion.
Excellent recommendation, FCJ.
And welcome to the forum!

[FCJ]

Originally posted by D.D.

Excellent recommendation, FCJ.
And welcome to the forum!

Thanks!

Speaking of more guitar recommendations, recently I picked up "Freedom of the City 2002--Small Groups" on Emanem. There's a great duo on CD2 with John Russell on guitar and Evan Parker (playing both tenor and soprano). I find the rest of the CD to be a bit spotty, but this duo is worth the price of admission.

[Joel]

How about this "The James Bond Theme", what a freakin kick ass rendition. I'm slightly disappointed that this wasnt covered in the Live album at the Knitting Factory...maybe it'll come up in Vol 2.

Naked City is the Best!
http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf200/f250/f25028q7dwi.jpg

What more can you ask for? sax, guitar, keys,bass,drums. Definitely the band effort avant garde jazz that I'm after.

Omar....are you still around? why havent you mentioned these guys.:p :D

I'll be saving money for the Torture Garden next.

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Joel
Omar....are you still around? why havent you mentioned these guys.:p :D

I come and go :) Mostly on another board.

Hmm, I thought I mentioned Naked City somewhere before. Yeah, that one's real good. Overall, I'm not as big a fan of the Downtowners as I once was, but that one still kicks ass.

Did I mention Last Exit yet? It's comprised of Ronald Shannon Jackson (d), Bill Laswell (b), Sonny Sharrock (g), and Herr Peter Brotzmann (ts). It's a nice, mellow, relaxed, sophisticated little ensemble :)

[D.D.]

Originally posted by omar zamora
Did I mention Last Exit yet? It's comprised of Ronald Shannon Jackson (d), Bill Laswell (b), Sonny Sharrock (g), and Herr Peter Brotzmann (ts). It's a nice, mellow, relaxed, sophisticated little ensemble :) Last Exit was excellent! There is also an interesting CD of the half of the Last Exit - Broetzmann and Sharrock with Nicky Skopelitis, bassist whose name I don;t remember and (!)Ginger Baker on drums - it's called No Material and it's on ITM - it's interesting to see how Baker drives the music to an absolutely difeerent direction (more laid back and bluesy).

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by D.D.
Last Exit was excellent! There is also an interesting CD of the half of the Last Exit - Broetzmann and Sharrock with Nicky Skopelitis, bassist whose name I don;t remember and (!)Ginger Baker on drums - it's called No Material and it's on ITM - it's interesting to see how Baker drives the music to an absolutely difeerent direction (more laid back and bluesy).

Haven't heard it, but sounds interesting. I wonder if the name has any reference to Laswell's Material.

[D.D.]

Originally posted by omar zamora


Haven't heard it, but sounds interesting. I wonder if the name has any reference to Laswell's Material. To Material, and also to the fact that this was a last minute impromptu collaboration (the liner notes explain the story) without any written. The CD is quite hard to find (I think ITM is out of business), but it is worth it. It pops up on e-bay occasionally.

[Joel]

drats! another hard to find...

so Last Exit belonged to Brotzman?...or Sharrock?

wait, I'll just search All Music...;)

[omar zamora]

Originally posted by Joel
so Last Exit belonged to Brotzman?...or Sharrock?

wait, I'll just search All Music...;)

In case AMG was not helpful, LE was really a collaborative effort. All four musicians were well-established when the band started, so in a way, it was a 'super-group' of sorts. I'm guessing Laswell was the most responsible for getting the group together, but the music they made was definitely a group effort.

[Joel]

Omar,

I remembered Last Exit from the first page of this thread and I just happen to preview 5 tracks about 2 days ago....you said before its "free fucking jazz", well I say its "free fucking good".

Its now time to do some Nels Cline and Gregg Bendian searches.....