PCness gone too far?

[trane_fanatic]

Haitians to Picket Over Computer Game
Thu Dec 11, 1:04 PM ET


By Michael Christie

MIAMI (Reuters) - Haitian community leaders vowed to proceed with plans to picket retailers selling a video game in which players are exhorted to "kill all the Haitians," saying the manufacturer's pledge to change future editions did not solve the problem with games on store shelves now.

After an outcry from the Haitian community over the game "Grand Theft Auto: Vice City," and to a lesser extent from leaders of the Cuban American community that players of the game are also urged to kill, Rockstar Games this week announced it would remove references to Haitians from future copies.

"It's too little, too late," said Ringo Cayard of the Haitian American Foundation. "They made the money, the message went through."


"The presence of Grand Theft Auto: Vice City on the shelves of national distributors and retailers ... continues to constitute a clear and present danger for Haitian nationals in the United States. Residents of Little Haiti (in Miami) have become like a sitting duck," Jean-Robert Lafortune of the Haitian-American Grassroots Coalition told Reuters on Thursday.


Haitian groups decided at meetings on Wednesday night to continue with planned protests against retailers.


They aim to picket Wal-Mart at the Florida seaside city of Boynton Beach on Dec. 13, retailers in New York on Dec. 15, and video chain Blockbuster Inc. in Miami on Dec. 20. Cuban leaders have said they will join them.


Rockstar and its owners Take-Two Interactive Software Inc. apologized for unintentionally causing offense but said the phrases had been taken out of context, and would not encourage violence against ethnic groups.


Grand Theft Auto: Vice City simulates a "glamorous, hedonistic metropolis of Vice City," a Miami-like seaside city teeming with Caribbean and Latin American immigrants.


In the game, an ex-convict has to recover stolen drug money and take on the Cuban and Haitian gangs that run the streets.


Anti-Defamation League national director Abraham Foxman praised the company for reacting so quickly and doing "the responsible thing by showing sensitivity."


Gepsie Metellus of the Haitian Neighborhood Center in Miami said she would not expect Take-Two to withdraw all copies of the game from the market place, "But I'm certainly hoping they will also edit the lines with respect to other ethnic groups."

[Andy D]

Gone too far?

Here in the Uk we use to have lots and lots of jokes about Irish people, then people from what we called 'the New Commonwealth', people from Pakistan, India etc and so on. Trouble was it created stereotypes, all Irish people are 'thick' (stupid), all Asians take our jobs and eat curry etc etc.

Then we wonder why we have racist attacks in small Northern Towns in England, why we see the US Police abuse and 'beat up' black people and so on. We need to be careful that what 'we' are selling, in what ever form, is not racist and bigoted ideology;)

Regards to you.

Andy D.

[Tenorman]

No, I don't think that it is PCness pushed too far. It should never have been released in the first place.

In general I am anti Political Correctness for it own sake. But to produce a violent game and get the players to declare open season on a particular group, be it racial or religious is the height of stupidity

[Saundra Hummer]

I agree with Andy, and Tenorman! I really do!

Haven't these people that put out, or retail such as this read and seen on television how some kids who are so out there copy and try to do what is to others just a video game or a plot in a fictional movie, and make it come to life?

Sorry but it is irresponsible to put that out, as someone is liable to try to turn it into a real life game. Doesn't take much for someone with a twisted mind to pick up and run with the idea.

[nkipa]

This isn't PC, it's people using their right to protest a blatantly offensive product.

Grand Theft Auto has already produced tragedies. Two young boys in my area played it often, got their dad's shotgun, and went out to the interstate and started shooting at cars. At least one death resulted. I believe a lawsuit against the video game maker is pending.

[Andy D]

I guess what is worrying is that these sorts of 'games' sell, and the association with the attacks on individuals and communities, is lost on those that make the product and those that sell it.

Regards

Andy D.

[Tenorman]

I read this thread out in the office today, and a gamer was defending the game, and saying that you cannot blame the game for the mental deficiencies of a very small minority of players. (He was shouted down 5 to 1)

Grand Theft Auto is a worrying trend in the gaming industry. Most other violent games have been based on shooting up troll and Orks and other fantasy creatures in a fantasy set. The war ones may well involve human beings but are usually in a setting away from home, and war is a fantasy to a lot of people who have never been shot at.

Grand Theft Auto goes out of its way to make the backdrop as realistic as possible. i.e. leave the game and walk down a city street and you will see the scenery if not the action. For anyone susceptible, this removes the differentiation between fantasy and reality.

The whole idea may be a step too far

[Andy D]

Try playing these games for a significant period of time, and it takes some doing not to take on board the 'messages' that seem to be all over the stories or plots.

It is simply not enough for the people to say "Well we are not responsible for what happens or people have freedom of choice". These games are designed to 'tap' into the fears and anxieties of many of the people that play them.

Of course it is not the whole story, there are issues such as education, social class, poverty etc etc but in the end these games increase some gamers desires to have more real life games, games in which they can act out their own particular issues.

This in some ways is recognised games now have age limits on them, but this still means young children often see games like
'Grand Theft Auto' with all the potential risks. Most children are not always able to distinguish between what is reality and what is fantasy.

It is indeed a worrying trend.

[Saundra Hummer]

Tell me about it Andy! Pac Man did a number on my mind, ha!

I really do think it does something to you, sitting there getting into something so intensly, as it takes deep concentration to play any of these games, or it does with me. I think that there is something physical that happens when you sit at these games for any length of time, it must release certain chemical and hormones into your blood stream as I feel odd after having played them.

Does this sound crazy or what, but I really do believe it has a physical as well a mental effect on many people. Maybe not all, but it is my opinion, maybe, not a scientific fact, that it does.

How about the little Japanese children made sick by a game that had just come out. They had to be hospitalized, as the sounds, and flashing lights made them physically ill, and it was so wide spread, that it couldn't have been mass hysteria, as they couldn't see or hear oneanother.

So it is my opinion, scholar that I am, ha!, that these violent, and sexual games have more than just a tiny effect on so many people, I think that it can and does become deep seated with too many. There are just too many people out there with the potential of becoming dangerous, phychotic, or what ever term you would use Andy.

I have a friend whose little brother became szchiophrenic, and they were told that perhaps someone goes their whole life without going over the line that they have had their toes on the edge of for their entire lives, but then maybe one thing happens like taking too many drugs, or having something very traumatic happen, they are then shoved over that line by that happening, maybe this is what some of these games do. So many hours, and hours of them on a mind that could be on the edge I don't believe is a good thing, much less with kids, not all, but with kids that are the biggest wannabes, kids without an original thought, Kids that want to follow the leader, or kids that want to make a point, without really knowing how to go about it, so they choose the wrong path these games have out there in front of them. I just think that the potential for really screwing with and screwing up your mind is there. Not enough other interests going on for them besides.

[Andy D]

Norm Chomsky writes and talks about how day by day the media, tell us what is news, what is important, what we should listen to, what we should read. Now according to Chomsky this is done, not in a overt way, but in a very covert way and so we think we have free choice and free speech etc.

Just take a look at what the news is in your part of the world in the morning ( UK time here ;) ), and you get some idea of what he means. The 'real' messages, messages of dominant discources, dominant narratives etc are lost because most people do not make the effort to look beyond the stories that we are given.

When kids or adults are playing these sorts of games, they are taking on board all kinds of messages, messages that are not always obvious or transparent, but they often include racism, sexism and the pepetuation of the dominant ideology.

Now I don't wish to sound like some plot from the X-Files or a script from the Matrix, but in the end what we may 'internalize' will have an effect on how we think and more importantly how we act.

Add to this mix a perception that parenting is in a state of crises, schools are out of control etc, and you may be able to see the influence these games have on the people that play them, and why someone like me will never be out of a job :D

Regards

Andy D.

[Tenorman]

Check this out from the BBC News Site

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3314177.stm

[still life]

Small example of how these "games" and more particularly their ideology is more affecting than we generally think games are. First of all, a computer game glues the person to their computer for hours at a time, sometimes to the exclusion of balancing activities and normal personal interrelations.
I work with a young man, who is twenty-one, who, along with his friend and some others have adopted a game as the centre piece of their daily lives. They refuse to work on Saturdays, because that is the day when they all get together for ceremonies and whatever they do. The "game" that all this stems from is one involving vampirism.
Now, I probably know more about vampirism than any of them do, since they weren't even aware that there was only one novel written by Bram Stoker about Dracula. [!!!!]. They are under the impression that the same novel was written by several people and that Stoker himself was writing his autobiography. I just stopped talking about it when they said that.
This group spends the bulk of their available money on special ornate knives, swords, gimcracks and various and sundry items, which they flash around from time to time. Some E-Bay seller apparantly has found a market. They [I'm not sure how many there are in the group] wear pentegram pendants, dye their hair black and wear all-black clothing, including a winter-lined ankle-length, cheap black leather trench coat. That alone is strange and would be amusing, if it wasn't an indiction of their devotion, despite hot summer temps, to their group.
Their beliefs seem to be a combination of Wikken, Vampirism and softball Satanism.
There seems to be a fair amount of anger and lack of tolerance of other people and I fear that at some point they are going to carry this whole fantasy thing too far, if they haven't already.
So, although anyone who knows me, knows that I am totally against censorship, or restriction of people's freedom, this really does concern me and I'm not quite sure at what point, if any, that somebody can do anything.
So, as a rallying point for already simmering feelings of alienation, these games may be one piece of the puzzle and a very disturbing one.

[trane_fanatic]

You guys all raise valid points.

The question I have is this: Where do you draw the line? "The Matrix" and "Natural Born Killers" movies inspired Columbine, yet there was no huge outcry about that. Do we ban all violent & sexual movies, gangsta rap, video games... etc? What are the limits of free speech in a democratic society? Does the KKK have the right to spew their hate speech? Let's look at the U.S. If the war on Iraq was not about using violence to resolve a problem that could have been solved by diplomacy, then I must be living in a different world. Talk about our leaders not setting a good example for the younger mindset. The movie "Scarface" is hailed as a 'classic' by a large number of film afficionados, yet many of the scenes in 'GTA: Vice City" are drawn from that film. Do we ban that movie, too?

A large number of video games have always been violent and gory. I think what is causing this backlash is such dialogue as "Kill The Haitians". That is definitely inappropriate in a mass-marketed video game. What may be a cause of concern to many of you is that many games in the future may make the "GTA" series look like "Sesame Street".

As for me, I do own this source of controversy and much of the subject matter in there is grossly and catoonishly exaggerated just like an R-rated movie (heck, it even has the voices of Ray Liotta, Dennis Hopper, Tom Sizemore, Burt Reynolds, Fairuza Balk among others). I would compare it to a mix of action flicks of the past 20 years.

Has it made me or the many people I know that also play it violent or hateful? No.

Could it land in the hands of a younger impressionable or a psychologically unstable "on the edge" person and trigger some deep-seated angst? Yes.

The timing of this is interesting. The game has been out for more than a year and surprisingly, was praised by mainstream publications such as Time Magazine as "art" and Rolling Stone as a "new frontier". If it truly made every player violent, we would have millions of crazed psychopaths roaming the street.

I think these games should not be sold or played by anyone under the age of 21, similar to pornography with an extra three years added on. How do we enforce that, though, without this material slipping into the hands of kids?

[Saundra Hummer]

Spookey Patricia!

Really, that is just not having a life of any consequence!

What a waste of time, effort and money, much less their minds.

I just don't get some people, and never will. I don't know what it is that would make someone spend and revolve their lives around a game, find like minded people to feed their compulsion, and get into it so deeply.

I have spent too many hours on this board, but because it is so diverse, I am able to enjoy it in a normal way, not be so compulsive about it, I can walk away and do other things involve myself in normal everyday activities, without going off the deep end.

When i first got my computer there was a game on it, and since I had to be sitting a lot with an injury, I started playing that game, it wasn't a violent game, and I never did understand what it was that it was trying to accomplish, but I started feeling compelled to play it, and it was as if it were playing mind games with my head, like I couldn't stand to walk away from it for very long, as I felt it was beating me, and doesn't everyone like to win? So I thought this is nuts of me, so I just quit playing it, and any more, I don't care to play any other games.

Too much free time I guess with a lot of these people who get into the sicko ones, and they probably become hooked before they even realize it.

[Tenorman]

The effect of Natural Born Killers, I can understand. Matrix seems a bit out of it - a fantasy world with people doing impossible things; but then there was the odd child who jumped off somewhere far too high in imitation of Superman, before TV and cinema got really violent.

Take two very ordinary nice guys. Feed them full of high-octane alcohol over a short period. One becomes violent and wants to fight the world. The other retires to a corner and falls asleep. Do we ban alcohol? A bit difficult considering that the origins go back to pre-history. A good argument for banning games? I think not

The displays of violence have increased over the last 50 years and become more more realistic. The games industry is on an ever-downwards cycle to make games more gory than the one before. We know that there are people who are susceptible to these influences. Before the days of video, a person could watch a film as often as it appeared in their local cinema. Now they can immerse themselves non-stop and even constantly re-wind the violent bits. Computer games can give hour after hour of pseudo violence, in which someone can spend their whole waking hours. Is this how our covert forces do brain-washing.

I am not at all happy with censorship, but something needs to be done. Auto shut-down after 1 hour and no re-boot for 3 hours???

Personally, I would bar all "shoot-em-ups" unless they were total fantasy, such as Orcs, trolls etc. But then I don't play them, am against violence - so that puts me in the silent majority:mad:

[still life]

Originally posted by Saundra Hummer
Spookey Patricia!

Really, that is just not having a life of any consequence!

What a waste of time, effort and money, much less their minds.

I just don't get some people, and never will. I don't know what it is that would make someone spend and revolve their lives around a game, find like minded people to feed their compulsion, and get into it so deeply.

I have spent too many hours on this board, but because it is so diverse, I am able to enjoy it in a normal way, not be so compulsive about it, I can walk away and do other things involve myself in normal everyday activities, without going off the deep end.

When i first got my computer there was a game on it, and since I had to be sitting a lot with an injury, I started playing that game, it wasn't a violent game, and I never did understand what it was that it was trying to accomplish, but I started feeling compelled to play it, and it was as if it were playing mind games with my head, like I couldn't stand to walk away from it for very long, as I felt it was beating me, and doesn't everyone like to win? So I thought this is nuts of me, so I just quit playing it, and any more, I don't care to play any other games.

Too much free time I guess with a lot of these people who get into the sicko ones, and they probably become hooked before they even realize it.

Yes, it is spooky.
Speaking of the hypnotic effect of computer games, I still remember how absorbed I got in "Doom", when it first came out. Although it didn't turn me into a homocidal maniac, there was an agressiveness that it brought out in me that was quite amazing.
So, it would seem to me that it's possible that killing games, like it and the later ones, could be part, not all, of what could push an already unbalanced person over the edge.
When you combine the acceptance of violence, instead of diplomacy as a solution to political problems with the distain many feel for those, like me, who prefer non-violent solutions, I am suddenly in the minority.

[nkipa]

We may be missing the point. What GTA-inspired incidents and others such as Columbine have in common is easy access to guns. Rather than restrict free speech it makes far more sense to have better control over guns. There's a scene in the recent movie "Elephant" (based on Columbine) in which two boys order assault weapons through the mail. All they have to do is sign for it when the deliveryman arrives.

[Saundra Hummer]

Coincidence, perhaps, but I don't feel that it is one, that the most aggregious violence that has been committed by children has been committed by those that spent hours and hours at their game boys.

I agree with Patrica, and Tenorman (and others) that this has had a hypnotic effect on them. Learning normal social skills from thier parents, and from other children has been replaced by bells and whistles, the graphic violence of the game. Copycat crimes abound in adults, why are children any different when it comes to not thinking straight.

None of us want censorship to intrude in our lives, but lets be a little responsible here, don't put these tapes in your stores just because you are concerned with the bottom line, don't buy these games for your children no matter how much they plead, and for heavens sake, don't use the t.v. as a pacifier and a baby sitter for your children, just too easy to do, and you may have no idea of the harm it might cause. I do think however that maybe some of these kids might learn a little more civility from the television than they are learning from their parents in some cases.

[Andy D]

Hi.

I have been away for a few days so I am just catching up with things.

Childhood violence is aften a complicated thing and research suggest that no single factor causes this. Most children see violent films at some point in their childhood, but not all turn to violence why is this?

Well as has been suggested it can often be a combination of factors, lack of parental support, social class, education, emotional and physical abuse etc. Some 'experts' argure that watching a diet of 'Tom and Jerry' or the 'Home Alone' Movies, creates far more potential violence in children than do some of the games people are mentioning.

Regards

Andy D.

[subcitizen]

I believe that pointing your finger at something that is meant to be entertainment and nothing more is only sweeping the dust under the rug. It's an easy way out, but i don't believe that the problem is the entertainment industry; its the small percentage of people out there who don't seem to understand that it is meant for entertainment and not something that is to be taken literally. If someone is stupid enough to try to recreate a video game, then it's their fault, not that of the video game. Tracing back the blame doesn't solve much. It wasn't the video game that committed those crimes in discussion, it was kids who obviously needed some serious therapy or council. Just like the columbine shootings, why blame the music they listen to? Marylin Manson didn't pull the trigger. It was those idiot kids, so put the blame on them. I don't know, i guess i just don't quite see the point in everyone going crazy over stuff that's fantasy and not reality.

-andrew

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by subcitizen
I believe that pointing your finger at something that is meant to be entertainment and nothing more is only sweeping the dust under the rug. It's an easy way out, but i don't believe that the problem is the entertainment industry; its the small percentage of people out there who don't seem to understand that it is meant for entertainment and not something that is to be taken literally. If someone is stupid enough to try to recreate a video game, then it's their fault, not that of the video game. Tracing back the blame doesn't solve much. It wasn't the video game that committed those crimes in discussion, it was kids who obviously needed some serious therapy or council. Just like the columbine shootings, why blame the music they listen to? Marylin Manson didn't pull the trigger. It was those idiot kids, so put the blame on them. I don't know, i guess i just don't quite see the point in everyone going crazy over stuff that's fantasy and not reality.

-andrew

The thing is, you see the difference, you are able to differentiate reality from fantasy, you, nor I attempt to live in a fantasy world. Most of us don't, but when that happens to others it makes the world a bit more dangerous for all of us, it really does. There really are people out there that don't have a clue as to how to live in a sane world, because their outlook is so ascew. We don't want our loved ones, or our own lives threatened by someone looking for acceptance, or taking their hate out on us, or anyone for that matter, getting their revenge or thrills with their reinacting a video game, or acting out on a sick piece of music. I just think that people need to be more aware that a lot of people are on the edge out there, so why tempt fate? A little bit of responsibility couldn't hurt. It's not censorship, just comon sense.

[Andy D]

Like I said it is a very complicated thing, and there is little direct proof that one thing causes the other. If you take the film by Michael Moore for example, 'Bowling for Columbine', the premise is that guns and violence are inherent in American society, at least white male American society.

Now in this context it is difficult, for some people to distinguish between what is and what is not reality, the violence is seen day by day, on the news, in the papers, on the TV etc etc and a process can ocuur in which people become desensitised to violence and the use of guns.

In this context the human emotions that often rule, are overridden, logic goes out of the window, and we see that people who kill seem not to care at all about what they have done.

Regards

Andy D.

[boptilUdrop]

Originally posted by Andy D
Like I said it is a very complicated thing, and there is little direct proof that one thing causes the other. If you take the film by Michael Moore for example, 'Bowling for Columbine', the premise is that guns and violence are inherent in American society, at least white male American society.

Now in this context it is difficult, for some people to distinguish between what is and what is not reality, the violence is seen day by day, on the news, in the papers, on the TV etc etc and a process can ocuur in which people become desensitised to violence and the use of guns.


Andy's post got me thinking of another violence-inducing product that's sold hand-over-fist in the U.S. without much regard to what happens after the sale ... GUNS!

Funny how much more attention video games/music videos/movies get for causing violence than guns themselves.

[Saundra Hummer]

Same problem, not everyone is competent enough to own one.

Not everyone is stable enough to own one.

Not everyone has been raised to be a responsible person,

Not everyone has sensible feelings about other human bdings.

I have grown up with guns as my father at one time was an avid hunter, we have always had guns in our house, which at times he dismantled to make sure we would never try to play with them in a workable state.

We have guns in our house now, and since we are pretty much isolated and small children are never around, we do keep them loaded some of the time, we do however make them unavailable when people with children visit, we do remove firing pins if children are going to be around for any length of time.

But I'm telling you, if there were no guns available, people would be bashing each other over the head with rocks, as it seems that too many people out there just have no respect for human life..

I remember the zip gun during the 50's and 60's. Guns were harder to come by then, so the gang type kids were making their own. Just part of the human condition, nothing that not having guns would totally solve, it might help some, but solve the problem, no way can it happen.

[still life]

I certainly don't claim to be an authority on what makes people violent.
As for parental responsibility, my only qualification is being lucky enough to have had parents who taught me empathy for others and to do nothing to harm others. Those are the values I hope I have passed on to my own two daughters, who seem to be well-adjusted and not in jail.:D
I think that there is a huge part that parents play in whether or not their children grow up to be the kind of people who contribute, positively to their generation. One of the values, I think, is empathy. Learning how to put themselves in the other person's shoes seems to be an alian idea to many of us.
The idea that the things we do, in our relations with others, have a positive or negative effect seems to be something that's been lost in the shuffle.
We seem to be a society that reacts to expressions of anger with violence, as a first defence. What ever happened to diplomacy, not just between countries, but on a more personal level.
I suppose that part of the reason is that, although we love talk shows, where we can passively watch other people air their most private thoughts and ideas, we seldom do that with our families anymore. We seem to be millions of little islands, shut off from real human interaction. Part of that, I think, is the inordinate time we all spend in front of the television and, even in front of our computers, instead of with people.

[Saundra Hummer]

How true Patricia!

[Andy D]

There is a growing school of thought that what people lack in society is emotional intelligence and emotional awareness, the consequence of this is that people who use violence are unable to understand and control how they feel.

We see this daily in our schools, on the streets and in many other aspects of society. The points you make Still life are very valid, and I wonder why you think in Canada, which has guns, seems a less vilent place that the US?

Regards

Andy D.

[still life]

Originally posted by Andy D
There is a growing school of thought that what people lack in society is emotional intelligence and emotional awareness, the consequence of this is that people who use violence are unable to understand and control how they feel.

We see this daily in our schools, on the streets and in many other aspects of society. The points you make Still life are very valid, and I wonder why you think in Canada, which has guns, seems a less vilent place that the US?

Regards

Andy D.

Although we do have guns, they are more closely controlled.
I don't think that we have the same feeling of being threatened with random violence, which seems to be the motivation for so many ordinary people south of our borders to feel that they must have a gun in the house for protection.
I certainly don't think that our more stringent gun laws are solely responsible for the lower level of violence. However, the glorification of guns in the U.S. IMO, is part, but certainly not the single reason for the proliferation of violence.
The fact cannot be ignored, however, that Canada has a small fraction of the deaths caused by guns, per capita than our neighbours to the south. I don't think that our registration laws are so much to be credited for this difference, but rather that we are simply not as aggressive.
It's not that we have no gun deaths. In fact, a woman I worked with for ten years was shot, on purpose, in her own home by her husband. Her husband was found not guilty "by reason of temperary dissassociative disorder". It was such a sensational, precedent-setting case that it was featured on a national TV program called "The Fifth Estate". So, we do have murders carried out with guns. We have a tiny fraction of the accidental deaths by shooting that the U.S. does though.
But I do think that there is a certain level of dehumanization of other people that leads to violence and that it is getting worse.

In the war situation that exists now, the people affected seem to be inconsequential. To not think that there must have been less bloody, destructive ways to oust Saddam Hussein, other than were chosen by the U.S. is thought of as being wusses, unpatriotic, or even cowardly. To not choose a military solution was our right, especially given the gradually emerging evidence that there was not imminent threat to defend ourselves from.

We in Canada are thought of, by many Americans, as being slackers and unsupportive of our neighbours because we didn't think that war was the only way to take out one man and his cronies.

Surely it wasn't necessary to kill thousands of people to get rid of one tyrant. To kill people to set them free seems to be a contradiction, but maybe that's just me.

The mentality that chooses violence as a logical solution to political situations by leaders of countries really makes me wonder what the future holds for our children.

[Andy D]

No I do not think it is just you;)

I do not know much about your society but what I do know, is that is seems to 'care' about people, has a good welfare and social system and seems to value a whole host of things. If the only option you choose is a violent one, then that is what you will get, and pretty soon people will see no other alternative.

So you start by killing the native Americans, then each other and then you begin to kill other people in other countries to justify the position you hold. White American history is a bloody one, as is White English History, it is never right to kill thousands of people to get hold of one person , but if you think that the end justify's the means then it does.

Regards

Andy D.

[still life]

Originally posted by Andy D
No I do not think it is just you;)

I do not know much about your society but what I do know, is that is seems to 'care' about people, has a good welfare and social system and seems to value a whole host of things. If the only option you choose is a violent one, then that is what you will get, and pretty soon people will see no other alternative.

So you start by killing the native Americans, then each other and then you begin to kill other people in other countries to justify the position you hold. White American history is a bloody one, as is White English History, it is never right to kill thousands of people to get hold of one person , but if you think that the end justify's the means then it does.

Regards

Andy D.

Whew. Thank you Andy. I was beginning to think that having not santioned the unprovoked attack on Iraq was isolating Canadians from you in the U.K. as well as those in the U.S.

A very close friend lives in NYC and although I'm not sure how committed he is to his opinion, he seems to think that it is a good thing to be feared for their military superiority. He also seems to agree with their aggressive "With us, or agin us" position. He rather likes the idea of being potential imperialists.
The absolute corruptness of having and using absolute, life or death power seems to escape him.
I have tried to tell him that to glory in the deaths of other human beings in furtherance of greed is wrong. I am mindful that we all are capable of the most heinous acts, if relieved of responsibility for them. I've cited various experiements in the past that bear me out. He remains unmoved, intoxicated by his perception of his country's power and apparant respect gained from it.
I disagree with him because I think that fear of death is not the same as respect. So, because of this ongoing unpleasantness [as someone, years ago referred to the years between 1939 and 1945] a rift has developed between my friend and myself.
He was always aware of my non-violent philosophy, in fact that was one of the things that he liked about me. Now, even that seems to have changed.
That makes me terribly sad, though it hasn't changed my feelings about violence being counter-productive as well as against everything that, to me, makes us human.

[Saundra Hummer]

This is a little off the track, but we, or I guess I should say "I," feel that people in Canada as a whole are better educated than people here in the U.S.

What is your drop out rate in your schools? I always thought that it is much lower, and you don't have the problems associated with poor educations. You don't seem to have the people there of the mentality that fill up Jerry Springer's and Maury Povich's shows.

Good god, look at the type of people who are raising children in this country and you can see the reason for the violence and stupidity here, then compound it with the drug problems that took off flying during the Reagan and Bush years, and you can see why we have such violence. These people often don't want or plan on these poor little children coming into the world, they live their lives as if they never had children, they don't provide for them, they don't even act or talk halfway decent in front of these poor kids, so how are they going to grow up with a set of values that will make them happy or successful, how are they going to know how to have meaningful and productive relationships with anyone in our society, much less in the work place. It is just nuts! A viscious circle, and it seems to be enlarging.

Not everyone can go to someone like Andy to have their problems handled sensibly, they just continue along, compounding problem after problem, having more poor little children along the way, No wonder we have such violence here.

[Andy D]

Many on the UK did not agree whith the war with Iraq, it had no UN mandate and I think it was illegal. There was no more of a reason to attack Iraq, than any other country that we consider to have a nasty regime, and there are one or two of them in the world.

Part of the spin is to tell people that it is jusitfied: there really are some weapons. he really in a threat and so on. Many of the 'games' people buy are a part of this process, so the wars become the games and the dominant ideology continues to the next generation, through a different meduim but the effects are the same and clear to see.

Regards

Andy D.

[Tenorman]

I spent some time in West Africa, and still follow the news around the area.

Liberia: "Civil Unrest" April 1979 - Troups open fire on protest march. In excess of 800 killed by heavy machinegun fire. Several days of the police and army running riot and drunk - I was there at the time
Military Coup Easter 1980. Bloody and violent.

10 years of dictatorship and ethnic violence to 1990

A further coup and the violence level increases. Estimates of those killed in the 20 odd years since the original coup start at one third of the population and work upwards. Liberia is and was an American protectorate (Liberian currency on a par with the dollar) Firestone had the biggest rubber plantation in the world there. America has done little or nothing to help

Sierra Leone. A bloody civil war had been raging for some time. The UK eventually went in (months if not years too late) and stopped it cold.

Rwanda 100s of thousands massacred.

I might be cynical, but I would guess that the reason for the West's lack of reaction in all these cases throughout Western Africa is the lack of any natural resources which would affect us and our way of living.

Compared to some of the things that have happened in the last 20 years in Western Africa, Saddam was an amateur. Now I wonder what Iraq has that these African countries do not?

It is similar to the point I made elsewhere about AIDS v Malaria. It is only within the last few years that AIDS has overtaken Malaria as the world's biggest single killer. Malaria still kills more children than AIDS. When was the last time you saw a Malaria benefit gig, or any fund raising for Malaria. AIDS affects the Western world, so suddenly money is poured into it.

Things will change - Malaria is heading Northwards because of Global Warming. Just wait till you have to start taking malaria tablets to go to Italy - Malaria helped wipe out the Romans as a civilisation and its coming again

[Saundra Hummer]

Hi Tenorman,

What were your emotions being in a country that was going through such a violent time? Really, I watch these things on television, and have to turn away as it is just too horrid, I don't want to see it, and I am thousands upon thousands of miles away, but it is just sickening and frightning to see, and hear.

I can't begin to imagine the terror that some people who are caught up in such a thing must feel. Did you have to evacuate, or have to be helped to evacuate? I don't get how people get so caught up in the violence that they can hack and kill even the children.

[Andy D]

Sandi.

Many people have become aware of the effects of war through the TV, and of course this is only one dimension, the effects of this is that the news is sanitised, filtered out and the true 'reality' is rarely shown.

I was involved in some work in Belfast at the time of the troubles, even though some of this was shown on TV, living and working in Belfast was very different.

Regards

Andy D.

[still life]

I too wonder why the millions of people in Africa, who have been killed doesn't rate more attention in the U.S. I know that here in Canada we have read, heard and seen the viciousness of the decade-long conflict.
In our national magazine, McLean's [comparable to "Time"] there have been several pieces written about the horrible violence there. In fact, there is a series, ongoing, which appeared recently, written by the son of one of our former Prime Ministers, [Alexander Trudeau] who spent months there, talking to the people affected and reporting to us, about the child soldiers and the seemingly uncaring attitude of the U.S. toward it. This, as Tenorman says, has been going on for a decade.
Diamonds were being used to finance the war, so much so that they were called "Blood Diamonds". Interestingly, Canada has begun to market diamonds [etched with a polar bear] mined in Yellowknife in Northern British Columbia and the ad campaign alludes to the bloodiness of the African diamonds.
As for President Bush's sudden compassion for the people affected by AIDS in Africa, it's a little late. Tenorman is right that horrible as the AIDS epidemic is, malaria still kills many more people and nobody seems to be very concerned about that.
I haven't heard if the proposed help from the U.S. regarding AIDS prevention and treatment has strings attached. It seems to me that earlier aid was on the condition that the same agencies weren't providing abortions. Even though, as far as I know, the AIDS thing is still just rhetoric, I can't help wondering if the present administration's sanctimoniousness will be attached to any help given by them.

[Andy D]

Still Life.

Well one reason is that the US has no reason to be concerned with what happens in Africa, or indeed very many countries around the world.

The 'news' such as it is is biased towards a social, political, and economic system that needs to justify itself to the people it serves. So most Americans know more about the points difference in the NFL and the NBA than they do what is happening in Africa.

Now do not take this the wrong way, I have met many Americans, in many different circumstances, and I have found them to be generous, polite, respectful but they seem to know very little about what is happening outside their own country. We have seen the same with the debates on Jazz, there is extensive knowledge on Amercian jazz, and very little on jazz outside their own country.

Regards

Andy D.

[still life]

Originally posted by Andy D
Still Life.

Well one reason is that the US has no reason to be concerned with what happens in Africa, or indeed very many countries around the world.

The 'news' such as it is is biased towards a social, political, and economic system that needs to justify itself to the people it serves. So most Americans know more about the points difference in the NFL and the NBA than they do what is happening in Africa.

Now do not take this the wrong way, I have met many Americans, in many different circumstances, and I have found them to be generous, polite, respectful but they seem to know very little about what is happening outside their own country. We have seen the same with the debates on Jazz, there is extensive knowledge on Amercian jazz, and very little on jazz outside their own country.

Regards

Andy D.

You're absolutely right, Andy.
Until two years ago, when I moved back to Canada, I lived in CA, for six years. I was astounded at how little people knew about Canada, much less countries farther afield. When I enrolled my daughter in seventh grade, she was required to take an English comprehension test, despite the fact that she understood, spoke and read English better than the person who administered the test.
My daughter was amazed to learn that her classmates were unaware that Canada is bigger than the continental US and that Toronto is not a province.
It amused her when she was often asked to say something "in Canadian".
Not surprising, since the country north of them appears as a line and about a half-inch of contrasting colour.

I heard someone say a while ago that wars were God's way of forcing Americans to look for their Atlases. Not too far from what I found to be true.

I should say, quickly, that I have many American friends, and they actually agree with me that they are pretty self-centred when it comes to knowledge of the rest of the world.
So, we should blame Mr Bush and his administation for being ignorant of other world cultures, but only gently.

[Andy D]

Still Life.

It is not just GW's fault it is the system that produces a society that is so limited on what it knows about the world outside itself. Of course we, by this I mean England, has a role to play in this my country's history is not so great or glorious and we have a part to play in the way the US is now.

Until the first gulf war, most Americans would have said that the Middle East was in Kansas, and few would have had any idea what the war was about. If they know little about Canada, it is not so much of a shock that they do not know who is the leader of North Korea or India ;)

The irony is that the world needs a strong US, a US that concerns itself with the issues in the world, that shares it's natural wealth, that allows the potential of it's people to promote the values that it's talks so much about, and seeks to export all over the world but this is not the case.

And you and I and many other people know that in the case of US foreign policy, it is indeed a case of 'PCness gone too far'

Regards

Andy D.

[Tenorman]

For the ladies in the UK (and possibly elsewhere).

The singer I have been shamelessly plugging on this site - Sandra Lawrence - has another string to her bow. She is a freelance journalist, and regularily writes for the Times and Guardian. She was recently in Rwanda doing research for an article for Marie Claire magazine. (2003 was the 10th anniversary of the massacre in Rwanda) I am not sure about print deadlines for that magazine but she delivered it within the last week or so. Assuming that it is a monthly, that would indicate the issue to be published in January or February.

If any of you ladies get a hold of the mag, I would be interested to hear what you think (I am too embarrassed to go thumbing through ladies' magazines in Smiths)

[Andy D]

[(I am too embarrassed to go thumbing through ladies' magazines in Smiths)[/B]

Hey I do this all the time but I am not looking at the social and political articles:wink2:

Regards

Andy D.

[Saundra Hummer]

Could it be that because our educational system has very often given us watered down versions of events that have happened in this country from it's inception until now, thereby never stimulating anyones curiosity, as the dullness of history as they taught it, and teach it is so damned boring?

Could it be that it would just involve too many complicated text books that we citizens just don't want to pay for?

Interest is the driving force behind knowing what is happening in the world, and some students have never had that interest stimulated by an inspired and dedicated teacher, or by family members.

We do know very little, and until the internet, most students didn't have the resources to aquire books that went into our history or our recent & current invololvements around the world, much less what others countries historys and current events are.
I'm not saying that everyone in our country has access to the internet either, as they don't, but it sure has made a variety of subjects availabe to a lot of us.

But if you use the internet for just games, music, and emails then it is no surprise that no one knows much.

Have you seen Jay Leno asking passerbys on the street simple questions, often times regarding our own history? So simple, yet his questions can't be answered by hardly anyone, how amazing is that?

Without families that encourage learning, too many of us have fallen through the cracks, without inspired educators, too many subjects are just skimmed over, or not taught at all.

I remember having had a teacher in grade school who was really an inspiration, Mrs. Dudley. She was amazing, she really was. She had days when we would just read the dictionary, build paper airplanes, discuss the possibility of a flight into outer space, "The Moon!" I had a classmate in the a 6th grade, who when told that it wouldn't be possible (by our text books,) to send men to the moon, he said it would be if they used the principle of gravity to do most of the work, and you know the rest, he was right. This is the type of thought she inspired.

She taught us to paint to music, how to decorate your home with items such as duck decoys, etc. She would bring several items in to the class and decorate areas in the class, these things would vary every couple of weeks, as would her focus. One of the most important things she taught was ethics, and kindness, never to be a bully, or never tolerate bullies. I know she wasn't following a formated program when she did all of this. She was instilling a curiosity in us that I have never lost, and it was nice to have her touch. It were as if she was educating our souls.

I remember trying to order certain books from the library, and having been put on a waiting list. This just shouldn't be, but it happens. A lot of kids families don't take newspapers, or subscribe to news magazines, so unless they watch the news on television, they don't have a clue. How many kids do you know who have the inclination to do that? I never knew any that did. Not until theywere about 16 or 17, and then usually because it had been instilled in them by their parents, not a teacher.

There are lots of us who know that it is ugly out there, we know that it is not just our country, but several others that are letting what is going on in the so called 3rd. World countries, to happen, with very little, if no effort on all of our parts to try to put an end to such poverty, lack of educaton, and the brutal attrocities.

It is just that it seems overwhelming at times. How do you intill kindness and caring in what seems to be the most brutal societies on the earth. How do you make inroads into changing human behavior that is so depraved? I know that lack of educaton and poverty is the root cause of it, but so are beliefs and traditions.

Not an overnight solution in sight, even if we were to put all of our collective resources into solving the myriad of problems that they suffer from. I just think it is overwhelming.

How do you get people in our governments to care enough to try to make a difference? I'm not sure they will ever care unless there is something that they think we'll gain.

They say that we choose our friends (I mean each of us,) by what it is they can do for us, make us laugh, someone who listens to you when you burden them with your problems, someone who has similar likes and dislikes, often times it is people who are from a similar background, some one to validate your existence. So how do we choose who it is we try to help in this world, only those that we can benefit from?

It seems like governments choose who to do what for in many of the same ways, oh and there is money, lets not forget that influence. Who will benefit us the most, If there is nothing to gain, we will just have to stand by, as our national interests aren't affected.

[mickey/lynn]

Originally posted by Saundra Hummer
This is a little off the track, but we, or I guess I should say "I," feel that people in Canada as a whole are better educated than people here in the U.S.

What is your drop out rate in your schools? I always thought that it is much lower, and you don't have the problems associated with poor educations. You don't seem to have the people there of the mentality that fill up Jerry Springer's and Maury Povich's shows.

Good god, look at the type of people who are raising children in this country and you can see the reason for the violence and stupidity here, then compound it with the drug problems that took off flying during the Reagan and Bush years, and you can see why we have such violence. These people often don't want or plan on these poor little children coming into the world, they live their lives as if they never had children, they don't provide for them, they don't even act or talk halfway decent in front of these poor kids, so how are they going to grow up with a set of values that will make them happy or successful, how are they going to know how to have meaningful and productive relationships with anyone in our society, much less in the work place. It is just nuts! A viscious circle, and it seems to be enlarging.

Not everyone can go to someone like Andy to have their problems handled sensibly, they just continue along, compounding problem after problem, having more poor little children along the way, No wonder we have such violence here. We have violence here because of past atrocities that were committed by white males, that has NEVER been addressed. We live in a country that thought it was okay to "own" people and lord over them, "sell" their children and break up families (this act ALONE has had devastating effects on the black community-to this day..read "The psychological effects of slavery on the black family"--Na'kim Akbar) take the land from the Indians-screw up their families and self-image, interr japanese americans in camps during the war, segregate the educational systems one for white, one for black etc.., lynch blackmen for daring to "look" at a white woman, keep jobs and education away from these "people" or make it so hard to come by that in 2004 there are still sentences that start with "he/she is the "first" black,hispanic,woman etc....., need I go on???? These issues have never been FULLY addressed and probably never will,now that we have white males crying "reverse racism". I can only speak from a perspective that I have felt and seen and experienced as black woman in this society. There is a tremendous amount of anger in my community and always has been, and more than likely always will be. Oh sure government programs have been created to "rectify" the past, and sure people have benefited from these programs. However, the government and laws can't change family legacies, distorted and hateful sterotypes and images of people that has been handed down from generation to generation, thus everything that we are seeing today, is just the past coming back, full circle, reaping what your ancestors have sown. Humanity suffered during those times, and it was up to "humans" to fix that suffering, not laws, and lump sum payments. When we continue to teach our children and they teach their children and so on and so forth, that LOVE is the key, you may not like that person, but you still have to respect that person for we all are humans---who am I kidding? (I even hear the violins) We know that it is so far gone out there, most people don't know the history, and don't care to know!! And most times when you start to speak of things from a psychcological perspective, most people tune out anyway. (Come back, I'm not finished!!) This is the problem as I see it and what were seeing today is that violence begats violence, ignorance begats ignorance and all of this stems from something in the past that a lot of people don't want to acknowledge or see "it" as being the cause of all the problems today. I'm stepping down off of my soapbox now...I am now prepared to face the firing squad..... :smokin:

[Tenorman]

This world divides itself into clubs. There are countries, races, religions, football teams you name it. In many cases these "clubs" are used as the basis of "if you are not with us, you are against us" In the case of race it is not possible to slip from club to club.

It is not so very long ago that jobs in the UK were blatently restricted on the basis of "class" (some still are but not quite so blatently). Around 25 years ago at a job interview in London, I was told at the interview that I would not be considered, becuase it was thought that my Scottish accent was inappropriate for a position where I would have to deal with clients. Amusing really since the firm had been founded by a Scot.

There is a general malaise of the human condition that likes to group people of a simiar "type" round about them and then attack those of a different type.

One day perhaps there may be a "cure". Till then, be an example. If enough people join up it may become the norm and not minority

[clifton]

mickey/lynn: I was both disturbed and profoundly moved by your latest post. I believe that America is a paradox, with its bloody history, yet still and all retaining so much promise. Therefore, can America realize the promise without honestly facing and discussing its history? I don't think so. Then we have South Africa, with its own shameful history, but Nelson Mandela, a towering statesman, manages to combine truth-telling with reconciliation. It's a delicate art, but I would suggest that is what needs to be done.

[Saundra Hummer]

I think that we can all learn by the example Nelson Mandella, and Desmond Tutu have put out in front of the world. I really do. These people have every reason to be consumed by bitterness and hate, every reason in the world, but instead they have chosen an enlightened path to follow.

[Andy D]

Nelson was indeed a man who showed a way forward, but there was a price for this. The progress of reform has still not redressed the huge disparity between the different groups. The majority of the wealth in South Africa is sill 'owned' by less than 2% of the population, and this is held by the minority population.

The working conditions of the, mainly black miners, who dig for the diamonds and other gems that make South Africa a rich country, is amongst the worst in the world, with more deaths than any other country. The health divide between the racial and social groups is as poor as it has ever been, and this is a few of the contributing factors that are responsible for the high murder rate in South Africa.

The journalist John Pilger, recently reflected on the role that Mandela has played in this situaton. What he argues is that Nelson did contribute to the reconcilliation process, and did this is a way that showed other people what is possible. But the price for this may not have been the social and economic change that all anticpated.

Regards

Andy D.

[mickey/lynn]

Clifton,

What was it about my post that disturbed you??? Just curious.

[jav]

mickey/lynn, your post hit home for me. All the issues you brought forth are in dire need of discussion, and resolution! Of course, I imagine many will invoke the same old tired reverse racism responses and that was then, this is now fend off, however I believe you are absolutely right that until we deal honestly with past transgressions and see a real commitment to produce positive changes now, not put them on the backburner, we will see no end to the escalating consequences. No firing squad here, just agreement. jav

[clifton]

mickey/lynn: I was disturbed by your post in an odd sort of way. I've been involved with liberal activist causes since the Viet Nam War. Now in 2004 I believe America, and the world, are facing staggering crises on so many fronts. Your post brought home how much work remains to be done. That's what disturbs me. Maybe saddens would be a better word. And honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable discussing racism in America, perhaps because the reality is ugly, or perhaps there's no rational reason. But racism is America's elephant in the living room. No matter how much you pretend it isn't there, it won't go away until we face it.

[Saundra Hummer]

It is a real problem. I don't see it going away. I thought that after WWII we would never see such again in our lifetime, hating others because they don't fit into what we see as a superior race or religion, our own, but look at the former Yugoslavia, Bosnia, and that area, nothing has changed at all, the potential for attrocities are lurking everywhere.

As for the black experience I feel that anytime you split up families for generations, selling off their wives and children, so they couldn't have a united family, not being able to bring up their own children, never knowing what it is like to do so, problems are going to arise in the future, and the future is now. This is a huge problem with black America, so many black men wanting to just shirk their responsibility to their families. Having said this, what is the problem with white men who do the same? What is it in their past history that makes them shirk their responsibilities? What is it with Hispanics? With Italians? With ??? It isn't just the men, you see this in women also, but not quite as much.

I understand where the bitterness and despair comes from, but somehow, attitudes have to change; to be like you say mickey/lynn, some way, love and compassion have to replace bitter feelings.

We can't undo our past, but we can, and need to come to some sort of understanding. Everyone needs to search for a solution, one that can help with the feelings of hoplessness that racisim, and class distinction spawns.

As far as racism is concerned, it seems to also be a more complicated form of class distinction, a need for some to feel superior to someone, a need to feel that they matter more than others, to me, this seems to be part of the human condition. I see no relief from it on a large scale anytime soon, infact, it seems to be gaining strength. socio-economics are at work, religious beliefs are at work, gaps are widening, and gaining their own strengths. There are those that drive a Lexus, and those that drive a Hyundai, and there lies a divide, throw in a difference in skin color, and the gap widens even more.

[Andy D]

Is this part of the human condition, as some people suggest or is social construction or indeed something else? Either way it poses a problem for all. The World is facing a number of crisis, that threaten us all. There is an environmental crisis waiting to happen, and in many ways it is happening now. The issue of people seeking refuge is a real problem, as one half of the world lacks sufficient water and food and the climate gets hotter, people will begin to move to the richer countries, and this will increasingly bring racism in all its ugly forms.

Governments seem to lack the will and the determination to deal with some of the issues that create the hatred, the anger and the alienation that so many people feel. And most of us are doing all we can to get by, in an increasingly hetic and stressed-out world. The real danger is indeed from within, not from the people who are seeking refuge or a better life, but from people who have had enough, who take the law into their own hands, who decide that Governments are not doing enough to protect their rights and way of life.

Regards

Andy D.