I want to start arranging, but I have NO clue where to start

[Zack Selk]

I downloaded Finale, and I'm screwing around on it, but not much more then that. I want to arrange for a quintet or a sextet.
Drums
Piano
Bass
Tenor
Trumpet
maybe Trombone
I know it's all chords, but I have no clue where to start.
:shrug:
I also have some music in my head, but I can't really translate it into notes.

[Vic J]

You should study privately with someone or get some books. Ed Byrne and Phil Kelly may post the best advice...

[JonR]

I downloaded Finale, and I'm screwing around on it, but not much more then that. I want to arrange for a quintet or a sextet.
Drums
Piano
Bass
Tenor
Trumpet
maybe Trombone
I know it's all chords, but I have no clue where to start.
:shrug:
You really need to take a course, or get a teacher. A good book would be second choice. I have these two:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Composing-Jazz-Orchestra-William-Russo/dp/0226732096/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1200854865&sr=8-5
- very small and thin, for such a huge topic, but he covers some good ground. (And yes, the title says "Composing", but really it's all about arranging and orchestration.)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Basic-Concepts-Arranging-Orchestrating-Music/dp/087166514X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1200855041&sr=8-1
- a very old book now, but good information on ranges and transposition of all instruments - two basic things you really need to know about.

Obviously, you need to listen (and listen closely!) to a lot of the kind of music you want to write/arrange. Ideas need to come from somewhere...
And there's far more variety in terms of what's possible (or desirable) than you might think.
Eg, it can be tempting to think it's "all chords" (harmony), but rhythm, dynamics, timbre and articulation are all at least as important. You want punchy riffs or long chords? You want open or close voicing? You want "thickened line", or separately moving voices? You want mutes on that brass, or not? what kind? etc etc...
Different styles (even within jazz) have different rules, different conventions.

Remember there are two areas to think about: "arranging" (the way notes work together, harmonically and rhythmically, perhaps involving additional composition) and "orchestration" (how to use different instrumental sounds or line-ups for different effects, understanding the potential and limitations of the different instruments). Obviously the two overlap, but it's handy to distinguish them in your brain, I find.

Another tip to bear in mind (like a golden thread guiding you through the horrendously complicated labyrinth of instrument range/transposition and harmonic potential/limitation) is melody. Each instrument's part - thinking about horns at least, I guess - should sound good melodically on its own. IMO. And don't forget those guys have to breathe... :rolleyes:

And generally speaking... K.I.S.S.
(Keep it simple, stupid.)

I also have some music in my head, but I can't really translate it into notes.Ah ha! An eternal affliction that I think we all suffer from, my friend...

No answer there, other than to just try singing it, note by note, until it comes out "right". (And you may not know what you want - or don't want - until you hear it. )
Or play it on your instrument of course; but if that's piano or guitar, probably not a good idea because you might be tempted to play chords... And chords can go just about anywhere without a melody (even something rudimentary) to guide them.
Piano (or a keyboard of some kind) is an essential arranger's tool (guitar is not really any good), but that's after you have melody sorted out (IMO).

Anyway, now over to the guys who really know what they're talking about... ;)

[Zack Selk]

Sorry for asking such a broad question.
I know this must be like answering "can someone explain the universe to me?"
Thanks for the help.
And until I can get a book on the subject, I'm just going screw around on Finale, and hope I stumble on something that works.

[Phil Kelly]

hi b123:

prior to getting into the 'arranging" aspects of things, you need to have a pretty fair knowlege of jazz theory, voice leading, chordal construction,inversions and other basic tools of the trade, ( you may have some of this already, but for arranging ,you really need for it to become second nature )

following all that, here are a few good books i'd recommend:

the complete arranger: sam nestico

arranging : don sebesky ( get the updated edition )

linear writing: bill dobbins ( this one is a bit of a slog,but contains lots of valuable info)

[Jay Norem]

I downloaded Finale, and I'm screwing around on it, but not much more then that. I want to arrange for a quintet or a sextet.
Drums
Piano
Bass
Tenor
Trumpet
maybe Trombone
I know it's all chords, but I have no clue where to start.
:shrug:
I also have some music in my head, but I can't really translate it into notes.

Do you play any piano at all?
Get some kind of keyboard, and bone up on your theory.
And, like practicing an instrument, you need to write every day.

[Zack Selk]

Do you play any piano at all?
Get some kind of keyboard, and bone up on your theory.
And, like practicing an instrument, you need to write every day.

I used to play piano when I was 6.
That was for a year or two.
Now I dinker on my keyboard every now and then, when I want to work on melody (my main instrument is drums).

[Jay Norem]

I used to play piano when I was 6.
That was for a year or two.
Now I dinker on my keyboard every now and then, when I want to work on melody (my main instrument is drums).

You need to be able to do better than dinker. What you want, in my opinion, is to go to music school, have your ass torn to shreds. I don't mean that in any way to sound unkind, it's just that HAVING to produce work and having your work criticized is the best way to get good at it.
By the way, my instrument is the drums too. And guess what, it's Phil Kelly's also, and he's forgotten more about arranging than I'll ever know.
In the meantime, study the theory and harmony and play the piano and practice writing charts every day.

[JonR]

I used to play piano when I was 6.
That was for a year or two.
Now I dinker on my keyboard every now and then, when I want to work on melody (my main instrument is drums).I agree with Jay, but it may depend on how deep you want to go, and how quickly (or far) you want to progress. (Not to mention what you can afford, in money and time!)
As long as you can translate what you do on the keyboard into notation (using Finale or whatever), you can find out quite a lot by experimentation, in terms of what works. If notation isn't your strong point - nor your keyboard chord skills - you need to be able to record multitrack. (But you will need good notation skills eventually...)

I don't know Finale very well, but it may have useful tips on ranges of instruments - showing you when a note is out of range - and should enable automatic transposition. (Certainly you can sequence multitrack on it. Naturally you have to put up with MIDI instrument sounds, which are notoriously awful, esp for saxes.)

Theory is pretty important for arranging - more so (IMO) than in composition or improvisation. There are so many balls you have to juggle when arranging that some conventional harmony guidelines really help - esp (of course) if there are specific jazz sounds you want to get.

[hookedonguitar]

http://www.amazon.com/David-Bakers-Arranging-Composing-Ensemble/dp/0882844695

Someone recommended this one on AAJ, they were right - it seems pretty bloody good!

[EdByrne]

hi b123:

prior to getting into the 'arranging" aspects of things, you need to have a pretty fair knowlege of jazz theory, voice leading, chordal construction,inversions and other basic tools of the trade, ( you may have some of this already, but for arranging ,you really need for it to become second nature )

following all that, here are a few good books i'd recommend:

the complete arranger: sam nestico

arranging : don sebesky ( get the updated edition )

linear writing: bill dobbins ( this one is a bit of a slog,but contains lots of valuable info)

Great books. I particulary like the Sebesky, but they all approach the subject from different valuable viewpoints. Arranging is really about orchestration, a traditional classical subject about which much has been written. Therefore, I also recommend Walter Piston's Orchestration. There are many other good texts as well. As Phil points out often here, it's also essential (eventually) to do analyses of classical scores--the true source for this topic; but I agree that you will need a teacher to get into the subject properly. (You could even study with me live online.)

Finale, while a great notation & playback vehicle (which both Phil & i use in our work), will not really help too much in the learning you need for arranging & orchestration skills, however--except to play back what you have written, which is good, but not enough information.

I also agree with the statement above regarding studying theory, which is a prerequisite to learning arranging. There is much good advice above, which illustrates how varied this subject is, & how many different skills one needs to bring to bear in order to be a good arranger.

Regarding studying scores, you could study some of Phil's wonderful big band arrangements--the master: http://www.freejazzinstitute.org/showposts.php?dept=analysis

There are also some small group scores of mine & others there.

[guitarjazz]

Blade123:Most arranging courses start out with arranging for two instruments instead of five or six. Listen to music and try to copy forms and arranging textures.

[EdByrne]

Blade123:Most arranging courses start out with arranging for two instruments instead of five or six. Listen to music and try to copy forms and arranging textures.

guitarjazz makes a very good point here. I learned at first by transcribing recordings of such artists as Kenny Durham & Joe Henderson, Miles, Trane, Benny Golson, Clifford Brown, Freddie Hubbard, Sonny Rollins, J.J. Johnson, & above all Horace Silver--who influenced everyone. After you transcribe it, you start to notice where they break the horns into harmony from 8v unison, how the head is treated differently than the solo section, the various introduction & coda styles, & so on. Then write some arrangments for 2 horns of your own, using the devices and intervals they did.

Thanks, guitarjazz.

[Jakeweiser]

You must learn how to crawl before you can walk, you have to walk before you run.

Getting into arranging music for a 3 horn group has to start with a solid knowledge of Harmony and melody. There are several excellent books available on "Jazz Theory" that really you're going to either need to pick up and study or find someone in your area who has a solid grasp of these fundamental skills.

They are fundamentals skills, for anyone looking to get into a compositional line in this music. Writing something down on paper that sounds good is possible, if you search and search. However if you know the lay of the land in terms of harmony, melody, ranges, texture, form, transposition etc etc then you can eventually just sit down and write.

And that is some of the most rewarding work you can do as a musician imo.

[Phil Kelly]

I used to play piano when I was 6.
That was for a year or two.
Now I dinker on my keyboard every now and then, when I want to work on melody (my main instrument is drums).

the importance of a thorough background in jazz harmony is to eventually wean yourself pretty much totally from the keyboard!

i too was a drummer( with basically the keyboard chops of an elephant seal ) my breakthrough came while working on road bands and learning to rely on my harmonic knowlege and only a pitch pipe to write charts. i can THINK of lines that i'd never personally be able to play in a million years,but which (usually ) present no problems for competant musicians.

the other advantage to the "no - piano - use - your - skull" method is you start envisioning your music HORIZONTALLY ( as the lines move ) as opposed to VERTICALLY
( which is basically a static snapshot of a couple fistfuls of notes that do'nt realate to the linear aspect of the music! )

it takes some work to get it going,but it's the most important writing tool you'll ever learn.

[engelbach]

I also have some music in my head, but I can't really translate it into notes.

What exactly does this mean?

That you have the sound of the band in mind in some general way but don't know what to write for each instrument in order for it to sound the way you imagine it?

Or that you can't transcribe a single-note musical line into readable notation?