some folks prefer torture to jazz

[3pointdeli]

from http://www.gulf-news.com

***read the 4th paragraph***

_ US troops 'tortured' man with rap music
Beirut |Reuters | 21-12-2003
Print friendly format | Email to Friend

Lebanese Mohammed Jaber said he went to Iraq on a pilgrimage to Muslim holy sites, he ended up being "tortured" with loud rap music by US troops suspicious he might be a foreign fighter against Americans.

Jaber said an Iraqi taxi driver handed him and three friends over to US troops for $100 each in April apiece as fighters for ousted president Saddam Hussain.

"They asked us why we were there and if we came to fight them. But we said we came only to visit the holy sites in Karbala," he said. "They didn't torture us physically but they did psychologically by raising the volume of rap music all day until it became unbearable and by withholding food," he said.

But Jaber said he kept one secret from his captors, fearing the treatment could get worse. "I mean I like rap, just imagine them playing jazz."

US-led forces in Iraq freed Jaber and sent him and seven other Arab detainees home on Saturday.

The International Co-mmittee of the Red Cross said three of them were seriously injured while in US custody. Jaber said they had stepped on land mines while clearing up rubbish in a field for US soldiers.

Rights watchdog Amnesty International has said it has heard complaints of torture and degrading treatment including prolonged sle-ep deprivation from detainees held by the American troops.

Jaber said he and his friends were first held for six days handcuffed and hooded. They were not given food or allowed to sleep. _ _



· Libya sees better ties with West
· US troops 'tortured' man with rap music
· Sudan condemned for closing Al Jazeera _

_

[gjudd]

:laugh:

jazz - entertaining, enthralling, absorbing -

and potentially lethal.

[Andy D]

This approach is not new and one that the US army has used on a number of occassions in the past, it comes under the tactic of trying to deprive people of sleep and quite, they used this technique in the war in the Philippines a few years ago.

Regards

Andy D.

[still life]

It seems to me that a similar technique, at least the music part, was used on the Branch Davidians at Waco.

But, to be fair, ANY music, even our beloved JAZZ would be annoying, not to mention effective as an instrument of torture, if it were played, extra-loud, constantly, for days, along with sleep and food deprivation.

Even a series of single drops of water, on your forehead, for hours [Chinese Water Torture] would persuade most to spill the beans on troop movements, or anything else the torturer wanted to know. It's not always about actual physical pain being inflicted by shedding your blood or bruising you etc. We are a fragile species.

[Andy D]

I am involved with Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, and so I am familier with the various methods of 'torture' that are used around the world. Music, or noise is often used to abuse people. The US has developed this tactic over many years, they used it in Veitnam and later in the Philippines. It is also used in US prisons, as away of abusing inmates.

Of course we would not like to think this sort of thing goes on, in the democratic world, but is does!

Regards

Andy D.

[Tenorman]

This ain't funny

There is such a thing as the Geneva Convention. If true, this puts the American Administration in Iraq at the same level as the one they replaced. Torture is torture. Just because it leaves no physical wounds doesn't justify its use

[Andy D]

No it is not funny but if you look at the various reports that human rights groups write, and look hard enough to find this information, you will see that it goes on. Now abuse and torture is not confined to 'rogue states', it happens day-to-day in your country and mine.

Its just that we choose to ignore and close our eyes to what goes on!

Regards

Andy D.

[JPW]

Interesting debate. But what about the counter argument that without using these techniques there would be no way of breaking the terrorist cells and foiling their plans.
If my wife /daughter / mother had been the victim of these people I would perhaps be less inclined to treat them in a civilized manner.
In any case, making people listen to music for long periods, or depriving them of sleep (which frequently happnes in military training anyway) seems rather far from the atrocities described in, for instance, the Year of the Goat...
BTW, before you all jump on my case, I am not condoning torture - just trying to see the "other" side.

[Andy D]

JPW.

You raise some interesting questions, in that do the means justify the end? If the end is that the threats you talk about are reduced?

Ok here are my thoughts.

For me, and here I have to admit some bias, in that I am involved with Amnesty International, human rights are human rights. If you deny this to the people you think are terrorists etc, then potentially you deny this to everyone. So you start by saying that any potential terrorist, can be denied sleep, food, water, can be beaten and abused etc if he/she gives the names of the rest of his 'cell' etc. Then you begin to arrest people, who you think may have connections with terrorists, and then you work your way down the line.

Let me give you an example that is close to home.

The British Government in its attempts to deal with the 'Irish Question', felt that it had to use what ever means it could. Now it was clear in the 60's and 70's that it was not going to 'defeat' the IRA, so its responce was to enter a phase known as the 'dirty war'.

Now this involved trying to target the families on suspected IRA members, 'shoot to kill policies' in which no questions are asked, suspects are just shot and it is made to look like they tried to run etc. It also resulted in internment, people placed in camps simply because they lived in a certain part of Belfast, are Catholic etc and illegal phone taps and the use of informants.

The result was a protracted war, more members for the IRA as kids saw there fathers interned and many many more deaths. Now this is not to deny the murder on the part of the IRA, the killings, the beatings etc all of which I have personally seen the effects of.

But if you think that the use of 'deprivation' is justified because you think the cause/aim etc is right, in my view you are treading a thin line.

Regards

Andy D.

[JPW]

Originally posted by Andy D

But if you think that the use of 'deprivation' is justified because you think the cause/aim etc is right, in my view you are treading a thin line.
Very true. But suppose you think innocent human lives are at stake? Potentially many thousands of human lives in fact.
This is a very delicate question, and you are right. Once, in an imperfect system, you start to tolerate and even encourage the use of certain kinds of torture, where will it lead. But the alternative...
To be fair, in the dirty war with the provos both sides used these tactics.
The Dirty war was not a campaign unilaterally conducted by the Brits, but a fairly unsystematic covert war carried on by both sides over a number of years.
In the end of course, the UK government ground the IRA to the negotiating table, and when you compare the scale and death toll in NI to, for instance, Bosnia...
As an aside, if this really was a war (as the provos would have it), it is interesting that it seems to be only the British Army and the RUC who are beginning to be held to account for their actions in the courts.
I'm veering off topic into dangerous waters here, so I'll stop.

[Andy D]

Lives are potentially at stake in situations in which one side takes a moral stand on an issue, feels that a cause is justified and is prepared to do what ever in needs to acheive its aims. Just look at US foreign policy in South America, Russia's policy in some of its former 'states', the conflict in the Middle East for example. What you see is States proclaiming that they are justified in using whatever methods they need to use, to protect themselves, to protect there particular interests etc etc.

The alternative is to be different from the people you are trying to stop, to take a moral position rather than say that 'my killing/torture is more justified than yours'! Take another example the UK and indeed many around the world condemed the murder of almost 350.000 people in East Timor at the hands on the Indonesian Army.

Now while they are condeming them, the UK Government was selling them fighter planes used to bomb East Timor, Nelson Mandela was awarding the highest honour in South Africa, to the president of Indonesia and so on. Now who has the moral highground here? Time and time again we see the routine use of torture justified on the basis of one cause being more justified than another, when in fact both causes have merits and supporters.

As for the conflict in Ireland, well I suppose it depends on what side of the fence you sit on? Personally I do not think there is any difference between what the IRA did, and what the UK Army did at 'Bloody Sunday' for example. And if you could find enough evidence to convict people involved in IRA torture then so be it. However state torture of people, in my view is not justifed under any circumstance, as torture of people by terrorist groups is not justifed under any circumstances.

The means do not justify the end, to follow this route will lead to a collapse of morality and decency, that is one of the things that distinguishes us, as human beings from other forms of life. What you saw in Bosnia, what you saw in Germany from 1933-1945 etc, was what happens when you suspend this sense of morality and decency and you allow yourself to justify the murder, the torture, the rape of people that do not share your views or ideas, or you are told that they are somehow different from you.

Regards

Andy D.

[clifton]

My view of torture and human rights is basic. We (the U.S.A.) are supposed to be the good guys. We're supposed to be better than the terrorists. By using torture techniques, we're no better than they are. We're violating the Geneva Convention every day at Guantanamo. AndyD: You are fighting the good fight. Keep it up.

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by clifton
My view of torture and human rights is basic. We (the U.S.A.) are supposed to be the good guys. We're supposed to be better than the terrorists. By using torture techniques, we're no better than they are. We're violating the Geneva Convention every day at Guantanamo. AndyD: You are fighting the good fight. Keep it up.

ABSOLUTLY!!!!