Jazz or Fusion?

[Coypu]

What do you like and why?

[Old Pa]

The bop, hard bop, and post bop I favor are simpler, bare-er, and more acoustic than the fusion I am familiar with.

[Coypu]

Do you have any examples of groups/artists that are good. I havent heard much bepop yet and I'm looking for something good to start with.

I personally like Fusion judging from what I have heard of both jazz and fusion bands. Fusion seems to have a greater ability to add an extra edge to it and also have stronger compositions which I really like. I prefer a strong multilayered wellplanned and organized song rather than too much free improvisation since that often come at the expense of complexity and may hinder the song to reach its full potential.

[Old Pa]

Some late 60s Miles Davis would probably be a good point of transfer. "Bitches Brew" and "In a Silent Way" come to mind. You might also like Eric Dolphy's "Far Cry". All are classics you will not want to get rid of.

[Coypu]

I downloaded Bitches Brews and have been listening to it a few times now and the music is pretty interesting but it just doesn't evoke any emotions in me when I hear it, it feels almost abit incoherent. Thanks anyway it was still nice hearing it.

[Old Pa]

I got Bitches Brew as an LP when it was released and I was 12 or 13 years old. I found it pretty inaccessible then, but upon relistening during the last several years really like it. I did not know you wanted a suggestion which would principally evoke emotions, so I tried to suggest something close to the early fusion I also enjoyed. See if you can find some Charles Mingus ("Oh Yeah" or "Ah Um") or some of the more recent Mingus Big Band. Perhaps that is more along your line. Are you listening over your computer system?

[mathjazz]

I got into fusion before I became seriously interested in jazz. Before being exposed to fusion I was marginally into jazz - listening to it every now and then but not being a huge fan. Last summer I listened to Return to Forever, who are now my favorite fusion band, and I got hooked on both jazz and fusion.

As far as jazz goes I really enjoy post bop and bebop. I'm often more into the tones of fusion though just because I favor guitar and synths sometimes more than horns. A good place to get into fusion would definitely be getting something like 'In A Silent Way' and then seeing if you like it. Then I'd definitely recommend getting a Return to Forever album like Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy and seeing if you like that..then from there just getting into everything you can find that is similar. That's what I did.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by Old Pa
I got Bitches Brew as an LP when it was released and I was 12 or 13 years old. I found it pretty inaccessible then, but upon relistening during the last several years really like it. I did not know you wanted a suggestion which would principally evoke emotions, so I tried to suggest something close to the early fusion I also enjoyed. See if you can find some Charles Mingus ("Oh Yeah" or "Ah Um") or some of the more recent Mingus Big Band. Perhaps that is more along your line. Are you listening over your computer system?

Most the music I listen to is very riff based, you can often hear riff1, riff2 etc. Not so loose as this stuff so I guess it can take a while to adjust. I'm going to listen to the album over a longer time and see if it grows on me. I'm not sure that Charles Mingus is the way to go for me. I like bands like Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather Report, Chic Corea, Jaco Pastorius, Tribal Tech etc. Allan Holdsworth music is great too. If you have anything that relates to thoose that is worth checking out then I'll gladly do it.

Yes I'm listening on my computer system, I usually code all my cds to mp3 since it makes life alot easier.

I got into fusion before I became seriously interested in jazz. Before being exposed to fusion I was marginally into jazz - listening to it every now and then but not being a huge fan. Last summer I listened to Return to Forever, who are now my favorite fusion band, and I got hooked on both jazz and fusion.

As far as jazz goes I really enjoy post bop and bebop. I'm often more into the tones of fusion though just because I favor guitar and synths sometimes more than horns. A good place to get into fusion would definitely be getting something like 'In A Silent Way' and then seeing if you like it. Then I'd definitely recommend getting a Return to Forever album like Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy and seeing if you like that..then from there just getting into everything you can find that is similar. That's what I did.

I'm also more into guitars that horns.. I have already heard Chick Corea and think that they are pretty nice, hardly among my favorites but still good enough to listen too. I will check out Return to Forever as soon as I can. Thanks for the tips and if you know anything else that I might enjoy I will gladly check out any recomendations.

[Giant Steps]

That's funny to me because I would much rather listen to a good horn player than a good guitar player. I study horn players a majority of the time even though I'm a guitarist myself. When it comes to comping I tend to look at guitarists more that pianists but the lines are all about the horn players for me.

Also, one of the biggest reasons I got into jazz was because of the freedom in structure. It seems more personal; less mechanical to me. I still really like fusion but Coltrane, Parker, Miles, and Dizzy are where it's at for me. With regards to emotion, I get a much stronger feeling from the end of Countdown than I do from any Al DiMeola.

Good Cheese,
-GS-

[clifton]

I like all styles of jazz, but I must confess I'm a bebopper at heart. Charlie Parker is my favorite musician, bar none. Nonetheless, I enjoy everything. In the fusion area, I've been listening to Charlie Hunter and the Tim Hagans-Bob Belden "Reanimation Live" CD. The Hagans effort is particularly impressive, in that he uses a DJ to anchor the beat, while his quintet integrates all kinds of counter-rhythms and interplay. I also highly recommend "The Infinite", by Dave Douglas, which, although it has electric piano on it, isn't fusion, but Dave's melding of lyricism and flat-out aggression is unique and persuasive. Among straight-ahead musicians, I love all the acknowledged giants, especially Bird, of course. Younger musicians who impress me are Dave Douglas, Chris Potter, James Carter, and Jason Moran.

[X-man]

i dont know about jazz but there is a metal core band called 'shai hulud' who happen to be my fave band that play music that trigger emotions in a deep way, from rage, despair, anger, isolation and power, and they're very intense. They're drummer is jazz trained and the vocalist was only 17 when he recorded their first record and he sounds like 40 grown men but now plays guitar in a much mellower more commercial band. They have amazing, emotional and thought provoking lyrics. And chad the vocalist captures those emotions perfectly and complements the lyrics with his voice.

Recomended songs
'beliefs and obsessions'
'for the world'
'a profound hatred of man'
'love is the fall of every man'
'solely concentrating on the negative aspects of life'
'my heart bleeds the darkest blood'
'outside the boundaries of a friend'
'beyond man'

how about some good old swedish metal like messhugah

[jazzypaul]

how about jazz AND fusion? I dig Charlie Parker, but I love me some John MCLaughlin too. Life would be boring if I only had to choose one.

[Phil Kelly]

Mainstream jazz,hard bop, fusion, world music, funk, R&B, it's all fine with me providing it's well thought out and performed well with the appropriate "pocket" for the genre at hand ..

I admit to having a problem with what I've heard of much of the so-called " Avant Garde / Knit Factory " type music, but I accept that as a failing on my part ..after working in the music business for close to 40 years, my ears are getting a bit jaded, I guess..

[Joel]

Voted for Both.

A good example would be Jack DeJohnette's Parallel Realities or Jeff Richman's Live At The Baked Potato.
Its a combination of straight ahead (traditional jazz playing), fusion and contemporary jazz.

Also watch, In Concert Live (DVD) of Jack DeJohnette,Pat Metheny,Herbie Hancock & Dave Holland.

and Pat Metheny's Song X, if you want ass kicking free jazz.

[jazzypaul]

I don't know if many of my free jazz bretheren would qualify Song X as free jazz. It is outside, and it is free-informed, and it most certainly kicks ass, but there's all the space in the world between Song X and Jitney #2.

I don't really see why we have to catagorize jazz and fusion differently. it's not like one's a chicken and one's a cow. It's more like one is New York Strip and the other one is Porterhouse. Both cow, and both better than the taco-bell meat known as smooth jazz.

[Coypu]

I don't really see why we have to catagorize jazz and fusion differently. it's not like one's a chicken and one's a cow. It's more like one is New York Strip and the other one is Porterhouse. Both cow, and both better than the taco-bell meat known as smooth jazz.

[jazzypaul]

Well smack my ass and call me Annie.

[Jazz]

well, I'll call you annie but I'd rather not do the other thing really.

[jazzypaul]

Originally posted by Coypu
I downloaded Bitches Brews and have been listening to it a few times now and the music is pretty interesting but it just doesn't evoke any emotions in me when I hear it, it feels almost abit incoherent. Thanks anyway it was still nice hearing it.

Bitches Brew was the album that got me into jazz in the first place, so you can say I have a soft spot in my heart for Miles' very singular brand of fusion. I think I am honestly very two-faced in my love of the stuff though. The jazz which has been fused with hip-hop and R&B, I love. The stuff that has been fused with rock loses jazz's inherent jazziness and rock's urgent crunch and just becomes some sort of proggy wankiness. no fun.

[Joel]

some more,

Stanley Clarke & Friends-Live At The Greek
(cjazz/fusion and Live!)

Alan Holdsworth - Sixteen Men Of Tain

[ma³goœka]

Coypu is the main provocateur on this forum and although I like fusion, I won't even try to discuss with him - it's pointless.

[lazy bird]

Charlie Parker is my all time favorite musician. In my opinion he was the greatest improviser and the best alto saxophone player in music history. But of course you can't compare levels of genius. There are genius mucisians and composers in most idioms.

f.i.

great 20th century classical musicians: Sviatoslav Richter (piano), Glenn Gould (piano)

20th century classical composers I like: Igor Stravinksy, Bela Bartok, Maurice Ravel

great jazz mucisians: Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Eric Dolpy

great jazz composers: Duke Ellington, Charles Mingus, Thelonious Monk

rock musicians: Frank Zappa, Jimi Hendrix

rock composers: Frank Zappa, Bob Dylan, Lou Reed

[lazy bird]

I forgot to mention my favorite Charlie Parker cd's:

The Quintet: Jazz at Massey Hall

The Savoy & Dial recordings

[bombastic]

fusion got me interested in jazz when i was a teenager, now i can't stand it! it's so busy! especially those mahavishnu orchestra and return to forever albums. i mean, you know, i was 14 when i heard them first, 30 years ago, and ones ear develops over time. as soon as i heard John Coltrane, I knew i had been missing out on Real Jazz. Why do you think so many jazz musicians are returning to the traditional acoustic format? did you ever hear the expression " less is more" ? those fusion bands tried to cram 100,000 notes into a guitar solo, mc laughlin especially, talk about overbearing!

[jazzypaul]

Bombastic, do me a favor: list me one CD of ORIGINAL music done by someone in the past five years that you actually like.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by bombastic
fusion got me interested in jazz when i was a teenager, now i can't stand it! it's so busy! especially those mahavishnu orchestra and return to forever albums. i mean, you know, i was 14 when i heard them first, 30 years ago, and ones ear develops over time. as soon as i heard John Coltrane, I knew i had been missing out on Real Jazz. Why do you think so many jazz musicians are returning to the traditional acoustic format? did you ever hear the expression " less is more" ? those fusion bands tried to cram 100,000 notes into a guitar solo, mc laughlin especially, talk about overbearing!

I would say that some Coltrane solos have a tendancy to cram in lots of notes too. McLaughlin is actually very non shreddy compared to some guys out there (Yngvie) so I don't think that you are on a just cause right now.

[jazzypaul]

When Death Metal came in the wind, did it blow back and make his jeans all messy?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
When Death Metal came in the wind, did it blow back and make his jeans all messy?

Do you want me to post Anal Cunt lyrics again?

Unless the answer is yes then you should try to stay on topic for once!

[jazzypaul]

I'm sorry...

Rendered Helpless
So Scream In Fright
Death Metal Came In The Wind

deserves as much as can be thrown at it. That's not even a personal insult or an insult against the band that wrote it (though it should be) That's just really bad lyric writing and deserves some good natured (or didn't you notice) ribbing...

[bombastic]

dave douglas-soul on soul alot of it is original material anyway, greg osby-invisible hand- some original, some standards. i'll name more later, gotta go....keep diggin' that jazz! david byrne- look into the eyeball, joe lovano-greg osby-friendly fire, tom harrell-paradise-live at the village vanguard-times mirror,dave douglas-the infinite. more to come....i'm talking about 70's fusion in that post!

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
I'm sorry...

Rendered Helpless
So Scream In Fright
Death Metal Came In The Wind

deserves as much as can be thrown at it. That's not even a personal insult or an insult against the band that wrote it (though it should be) That's just really bad lyric writing and deserves some good natured (or didn't you notice) ribbing...

Well thoose few lines defined the name to a whole genre, I'm not sure why jazz is called jazz but thoose possessed lyrics have historical value and should be honoured nomatter how genious the are.

[jazzypaul]

Well thoose few lines defined the name to a whole genre

Nope, they gave the name to a SUB-GENRE, if you want to get specific. As for them being being respected, ummm, no. If you want respect, earn it. Making death metal sound like either (a) a musical fart or (b) some guy named Death Metal spreading his seed is not respectable, it's laughable.

As for the quote I think of whenever I read any of your posts Coypu...

Where's Jazz going? I dunno, maybe it's going to hell. You can't make anything go anywhere... Thelonious Monk

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Nope, they gave the name to a SUB-GENRE, if you want to get specific. As for them being being respected, ummm, no. If you want respect, earn it. Making death metal sound like either (a) a musical fart or (b) some guy named Death Metal spreading his seed is not respectable, it's laughable.

As for the quote I think of whenever I read any of your posts Coypu...

Where's Jazz going? I dunno, maybe it's going to hell. You can't make anything go anywhere... Thelonious Monk

Death Metal is to big to be a sub genre really, the genre have 20-30 subgenres itself already. Well I don't see how most jazz lyrics can compete though, it's hard to find worse lyrics than in jazz and pop music. I changed my signature to an Anal Cunt lyrics, they are the only grindcore band who could play along with Coltrane and his crew musically.

I think that jazz is doomed to die out musically, sure some good obscure music will always thrive but jazz as an artform seem to have been watered down into smooth almost pop sounding harmless music in general.

[jazzypaul]

You're so cute Coypu...(pats Coypu on the head)

[omar zamora]

I don't listen to a whole lot of what's known as Fusion. I love Miles' 70's work in all its diversity. It don't get much better than Live-Evil. Aside from Miles, I'll listen to the original Brazilianish RTF, the first lineup of Mahavishnu, Weather Report, Mwandishi and some other Herbie stuff, etc. The thing these have in common is they were all disciples of Miles. Outside of that, my interest begins to wane.

Having said that, a lot of the modern creative jazz and improvising musicians I listen to grew up listening to rock and very well absorb the feel of jazz-rock without really being 'Fusion'. Take Tim Berne, for example. 'The Shell Game' from a coupla years ago has a relentless and intense drive that's very rockish. Jim Black and Gerry Hemingway, to name two, were rock drummers. The music that absorbs the energy and urgency of rock and early fusion I dig. The music that took on the bloated, ultra-chopsy aspects of Fusion (and prog rock), I don't.

[bombastic]

Give a listen to the album Fifth Dimension by the Byrds for some early fusion of Rock and Jazz. McGuinn doing the Coltrane trip on twelve string electric guitar. This may be the earliest Rock-Jazz Album. This along with The Beatles Revolver were the first albums to join Rock-Pop with Indian Music that i'm aware of. Listen to them back to back, two great albums from 1966. These 2 records might have kicked open the doors for all fusion music that came after them. John Coltrane was ahead of them all on the Eastern Music Trip around the time of "My Favorite Things" and "India" in the very early sixties. Also " A Love Supreme" recorded in December, 1964. These all occur long before Miles Davis' "In A Silent Way" or "Bitches Brew" or Tony Williams Lifetime. Any thoughts?

[RodneyDude]

I think that jazz is doomed to die out musically, sure some good obscure music will always thrive but jazz as an artform seem to have been watered down into smooth almost pop sounding harmless music in general.
Hey Coypu, I think you're right. Jazz is dying because it sounds too smooth. All of this new stuff just isn't heavy enough. I want to hear growling vocals and blastbeats but hey they won't do it because they like it smooth. Sorry jazz but metal is going to last longer.

[jazzypaul]

Originally posted by bombastic
...two great albums from 1966. These 2 records might have kicked open the doors for all fusion music that came after them. John Coltrane was ahead of them all on the Eastern Music Trip around the time of "My Favorite Things" and "India" in the very early sixties. Also " A Love Supreme" recorded in December, 1964. These all occur long before Miles Davis' "In A Silent Way" or "Bitches Brew" or Tony Williams Lifetime. Any thoughts?

Well, Duster by Gary Burton came out in 1967, before either In A Silent Way or Emergency. A Love Supreme is definitely jazz, but beyond that, cannot be called anything but genius. Duster, in many people's eyes, is the first fusion album. Fusion or not, it's a great side, and worth owning.

Originally posted by RodneyDude
Hey Coypu, I think you're right. Jazz is dying because it sounds too smooth. All of this new stuff just isn't heavy enough. I want to hear growling vocals and blastbeats but hey they won't do it because they like it smooth. Sorry jazz but metal is going to last longer.

Coypu, it's good to finally know your first name. Glad to meet you Rodney.

[Coypu]

Originally posted by RodneyDude
Hey Coypu, I think you're right. Jazz is dying because it sounds too smooth. All of this new stuff just isn't heavy enough. I want to hear growling vocals and blastbeats but hey they won't do it because they like it smooth. Sorry jazz but metal is going to last longer.

Yeah, that is correct-

[jazzypaul]

so why are you here again Coypu?

[Coypu]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
so why are you here again Coypu?

I love fusion, and as you said before, jazz and fusion should not really be separated.