David Hajdu article on Wynton in Atlantic Monthly...

[Pharaohrock]

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/03/hajdu.htm

Thought the forum would be interested in this, it's a very well-written piece.

[clifton]

I read the article a few days ago; well worth reading. I was most affected by the assessment of the damage Wynton has inadvertantly inflicted on jazz by his emphasis on the masters. The giants of the past are where it's at, therefore the record companies put out reissues rather than develop new talent, and jazz clubs suffer because you can't offer a gig to a dead guy. And I agree with Hadju's assessment. Wynton has developed a generation of very capable, sometimes inspired craftsmen who, by Wynton's own standards, will never approach the giants of the past Paradoxically, despite Wynton's crippling view of what jazz is, he has developed some fine players: Marcus Roberts, Wes Anderson, Eric Reed, Wycliffe Gordon, Victor Goines, etc. It should also be stated that Eric Reed compared being around Wynton to being in a cult. In other words, Wynton was doctrinaire and infallible, and you disagreed with him at your own risk.

[champjams]

The entire Wynton syndrome needs only one answer:

Wynton is irrelevant. Without Wynton, Jazz would still be Jazz.

BTW - He still can't play a blues or swing.

[Pharaohrock]

F*ck off Champjams, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Did you even read the article teenie??

[Dr. J.]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by clifton
[B]I read the article a few days ago; well worth reading. I was most affected by the assessment of the damage Wynton has inadvertantly inflicted on jazz by his emphasis on the masters. The giants of the past are where it's at, therefore the record companies put out reissues rather than develop new talent, and jazz clubs suffer because you can't offer a gig to a dead guy. And I agree with Hadju's assessment.

It was very well-done. I sometimes wonder if Wynton's emphasis on museum jazz- including his pronouncement last year? that the solo is dead - is partly to compensate for his own inadequacies in creating fresh, spontaneous, imaginative music on the spot.

> Paradoxically, despite Wynton's crippling view of what jazz is, he has developed some fine players: Marcus Roberts, Wes Anderson, Eric Reed, Wycliffe Gordon, Victor Goines, etc.

I don't think he "developed" them at all. He gave them more visibility, yes. They do their best work away from him.

> It should also be stated that Eric Reed compared being around Wynton to being in a cult. In other words, Wynton was doctrinaire and infallible, and you disagreed with him at your own risk.

No surprises there. His autocratic nature is well-known. And BTW, have you heard Eric Reed's "Happiness" CD? It's wonderful.
He may never get a Pulitzer for his PC sonority, but he writes great melodies and grooves.

[Pharaohrock]

Doc, I don't think Wynton pushed that cart by himself. And reissues are so commonplace mainly because they're so cheap to do- there's no production costs!

I would agree that Wynton has helped to accelerate what I'd call an inferiority complex relative to the past in Jazz, but again= you can't pin this on one man. Read the article again as it goes into depth over the "neoclassical" climate that Marsalis himself was walking into. He surely wasn't the only one leading this crusade. He's merely the obvious whipping boy for it.

And for the record, I happen to think this article threw Wynton into an overly unfavorable light, and I have had as fierce a bias against Wynton as anybody in the past. But I think Hajdu obviously has an axe to grind here. Wynton is an easy target, so while it's well written, it's pretty unambitious to try and tear someone down who's already been torn down so many times before.

It's going to be interesting seeing what Wynton does on Blue Note. I won't be at all surprised if he ends up putting out another killer small group record like a Black Codes from the Underground....

[Pharaohrock]

Wynton has a piano bench full of unrecorded music he wrote for his first band, the 1982-85 quintet

[Dr. J.]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pharaohrock
[B]Doc, I don't think Wynton pushed that cart by himself. And reissues are so commonplace mainly because they're so cheap to do- there's no production costs!

Like reality shows on TV, which I understand the networks are preparing several DOZEN more of for our viewing pleasure..

Your points are well taken, P. Rock. I will admit to having an aversion to WM that goes beyond his music to historical glints and tales of his sexism, ageism, racism, and anti-Semitism.

He may not have been the only one leading the charge, but he got the limelight - dominating the Burns series, for example.

>But I think Hajdu obviously has an axe to grind here. Wynton is an easy target, so while it's well written, it's pretty unambitious to try and tear someone down who's already been torn down so many times before.

In-house yes, but I don't think he's been torn down for the general public in such a visible piece before. As far as Haidju wielding an axe, that's the kind of thing that sells articles. I'll have to read it again in any case.

>It's going to be interesting seeing what Wynton does on Blue Note. I won't be at all surprised if he ends up putting out another killer small group record like a Black Codes from the Underground....

I would be, but if it's good music, play on!

[3pointdeli]

the article didn't seem like a hatchet job to me. the only things about it that made wynton look bad were wynton's quotes, and i don't think wynton would do a hatchet job on himself.

if you guys thought that was rough you're wimps.

[3pointdeli]

one more thought:

reissues are good.

let's face it, the profits from reissues pay for the losses on many new jazz releases. if the labels only released new work they'd go broke in no time.

[jazzypaul]

3pt -- you're right...reissues ARE good. But they get marketed without properly marketing the new stuff. RVG's get full page spreads in Down Beat. The new record by guy X is lucky if he gets a quarter page in a review. The reissues get end caps at Borders. If the record company really puts a lot of money into a release, it might get a spot at a listening station. The sad part is, all the labels have to do is put the re-issues out there. I'm not going to buy a Jackie McLean record unless I'm looking for one. But I may not KNOW to look for the new Javon Jackson record unless I see it prominently displayed, played in-store, etc, etc, etc. Re-issues are great, but they're not the be all and end all. At least I hope not.

[Pharaohrock]

it is not a straight-up hatchet job, but the author puts Wynton's quotes in places where they're (deliberately) going to end up making him look small, like in the closing paragraph where Wynton seems to be expressing doubt about his own future.....

[clifton]

I don't think Hadju had an axe to grind. But consider this: A young man in his early 20's is hailed as the savior of jazz. His one truly great album, "Black Codes", was recorded when he was 25. How could all the praise not go to his head? Think of a man, still in his early 30's, running Jazz At Lincoln Center, firing veteran musicians like Norris Turney from the LCJO and giving the gigs to his buddies. Wynton had power and acclaim and it went to his head. Only supreme arrogrance could cause him to release all those albums in 1999, although I admit the Monk tribute is pretty damn good. Despite his formidable talents, Wynton Marsalis chose to play it safe by trading creativity for power. Despite the fact he's a very good jazz trumpeter, he put the lid on his own creative growth by becoming a curator instead of a creator. He believed his own press notices, and his fall from grace was inevitable. Hadju merely documented what was already evident.

[3pointdeli]

good points, jazzypaul. i was thinking merely in terms of profit margins. the new releases do need to get prominent placement in stores and in the mags, etc. but to be honest, i can only think of one quality new release in ANY genre that has gotten more than a small ad or prominent shelf space in the record store. usually that space/marketing budget is reserved for flavor-of-the-month garbage.

[Pharaohrock]

clif, that's funny, most people think the monk project is a disaster. but to each his own i guess. i only heard it in a listening station and from what i heard, thought it was way too formalized renditions of Monk....

i disagree that Black Codes is the only truly great Wynton record however. Citi Movement is a GREAT record, and Tune in Tommorrow and In this House....aren't half shabby either. I might call them great but they're certainly up there.....I have never heard Blood on the Fields so I can't comment on that, but if it won a Pulitzer, you gotta figure there's maybe something to it.

Of course, if one isn't really open to music that adopts pre-1960 elements liberally, those records ain't gonna do it for ya.

Oh, and I'm thinking the greatest record Wynton has ever been involved with just might be this "All Rise" record that has been in my player non-stop for the past 4 days. Truly breathtaking music...

[clifton]

Pharoahrock: Upon further reflection, I'll give Wynton a lot of credit for Citi Movement and much of Marciac Suite. I haven't heard In This House or All Rise but I've heard about half of Blood On The Fields, which has the same virtues and flaws as most of Wynton's extended works: much swing, themes that I find crafty, even catchy, but never memorable, some pomposity, but most annoying, too much of Wynton's orchestral music is faux Ellington and/or faux Mingus. I don't hear anything in Wynton's work that says, "Wynton Marsalis". Clever and engaging, occaisionally inspiring, but nothing that really measures up to his heroes. And nobody, and I do mean nobody, covers Wynton's music. I hope he recovers the creative spark that made Black Codes his greatest album, in my view, but he still needs to learn humility.

[liamw]

It may have been the editors of The Atlantic wanting to make his article more sensational, but Hajdu's equating the state of jazz with the fortunes of Wynton Marsalis is a bit much. His arrogance may have made him enemies, but you can't blame him for the death of jazz. For one thing, it ain't dead yet. The health of an artform & its status in the marketplace are different matters, though obviously it would be better for living musicians if it was flourishing in the marketplace too.

One thing that puzzles me about this article (and often in jazz writing): who are the critics who are supposed to have so much power over careers & reputations in jazz? Club owners, booking agents, record company execs, I can see. But who pays any attention to jazz writers & critics? Or am I missing something?

[Pharaohrock]

liamw, i think critics may have power collectively but certainly not individually.......there is no critic for whom everybody stops in their tracks to hear his/her judgement....just ain't there.

But collectively (or as a herd) critics have influence. Contrary to the perception that jazz critics are individualistic, most go along with currents and form consensus readily- in other words, they seem to check which way the wind is blowing...... and this manifests in terms of anointing certain musicians to being basically untouchable, e.g. Dave Douglas, William Parker, Jason Moran, and putting the hex on others, e.g. Wynton, the David Murray backlash, the Josh Redman backlash, etc.

[clifton]

Wynton attracted almost unqualified praise until Jazz At Lincoln Center got into high gear. Perhaps the Hadju article reflects a backlash against Wynton's big mouth, his abuse of power at Lincoln Center (cronyism) and perhaps some glee that Wynton appears to be at long last getting some come-uppance. Critics often have a herd mentality that anoints saviors like Wynton or Joshua Redman and then generates orchestrated backlash against each new savior when he or she proves to be merely excellent. Yes it happened to Wynton but in large part he brought it on himself. It's happening now to Redman and Diana Krall. (Her reviews were glowing until she got popular; look it up). So I agree in large part with Pharoahrock's assessment although I think Dave Douglas deserves the hype. BTW the herd mentality also built up, then tore down, Chet Baker, Stan Kenton, Flip Phillips, and Don Ellis. I wasn't aware there was a David Murray backlash, since the "jazz police" never really liked him anyway.

[liamw]

But who ARE the "jazz police"? If they really exist, I should think that the internet, by providing democratic outlets like this one, ought to be a force in countering their influence.

[Pharaohrock]

There are no jazz police, that's a myth man.......let me tell you, I used to be surprised that Wynton didn't seem to bother to defend himself against some of his most outspoken critics. There will be page long manifestos in large jazz magazines, and no response. Maybe because he realizes that at the end of the day, these critics largely have a pretty small influence on how his music is received? (especially when Wynton has already transcended being only of the jazz culture to becoming a legit. part of the high-arts culture in America....he doesn't stand to lose much when he's already in the door so to speak.)

Re: David Murray backlash. He used to be a hero of many of the avant-garde inclined critics like John Corbett, now he's seen as hopelessly washed-up.....the main beef is that he puts out too many records- (what a sin! I wish my favorite musicians put out half the records he did.) Personally I think his whole generation is getting overlooked though. People don't talk about Oliver Lake, Baikida Carroll, etc. even though they've got a lot more pedigree than the newbie avantgarde musicians like Vandermark. There seems to be a lot of "in with the new, out with the old" mentality with avantgarde criticism......guess that's consistent with the nature of the music though.

[clifton]

"Jazz police" shouldn't be taken literally. It's a catch-all term for those who, in their conservatism, put rigid boundaries and narrow definitions on jazz. I'm referring to the likes of Stanley Crouch, John McDonough, and yes, Wynton Marsalis. And until recently, critics had a lot more power. There were fewer record labels, fewer records, fewer artists. I'd say that until the advent the internet, jazz education, and CD technology, a critic like Nat Hentoff or John Tynan could influence record sales. But now there are more musicians, more albums, and people can use the internet to check out the music for themselves. BTW I know I've engaged in some harsh Wynton-bashing on this thread, but I must admit I admire the fact that he ignores the critics. He'll play what he wants to play, write what he wants to write, and that's healthy. John Coltrane was very sensitive, and he responded to negative press by doing interviews in the jazz press. Eventually he just gave up, and, like Bird, said, "The music speaks for itself".