Single most underrated Jazz musician of all time.

[Pharaohrock]

Who is it?

Booker Little?
Lennie Tristano?
Herbie Nichols?
Jo Jones?
who?

[jazzypaul]

Booker Little is considered a god in many quarters. Not to mention, though, that when you die at 23, not many people get a chance to hear you. But people that have heard Booker love Booker.

Kinda ditto for Herbie Nichols. I've never met any jazz fan who doesn't completely go ga-ga for Herbie once they've heard him.

Lennie, though, is a strange one. There is a section of cats that completely OVERRATE him for bringing all of these newfound ideals to cool jazz. Then there are others that forget the fact that for all of his musical frigidity, that the man could play the hell out of the piano, so he gets underrated by them.

Jo Jones may very well be underated.

My choice: Booker Ervin. That cat could play a ton. Nobody knows about him.

[Pharaohrock]

Other candidates:

Freddie Webster
Don Byas
Gigi Gryce
Harold Land
Teddy Edwards

[omar zamora]

Jo Jones underrated? Papa Jo Jones? Hmm

I don't think he's underrated, but Tadd Dameron doesn't get sufficient props.

I love Sahib Shihab, but he's very unknown in the States. Yeah, it's his fault for moving to France, I guess.

[Pharaohrock]

I don't think all that many people are aware of Jo Jones' innovations....

[clifton]

Jazz teems with great, underrated players. If I have to pick just one, I'm going with an amazing alto player named Sonny Criss, followed closely by tenor giants Lucky Thompson and Illinois Jacquet. Also: Emmett Berry, Rex Stewart, Shorty Baker, Howard McGhee, Benny Morton, Paul Rutherford, Herb Geller, Pony Poindexter, Teddy Edwards, Don Byas, Harold Vick, Cecil Payne, Carl Perkins, Cedar Walton, Uri Caine, Hal Galper, Butch Warren, Sirone, Sid Catlett, Shadow Wilson, and Frank Butler. That's all for now.

[clifton]

P.S. Booker Ervin, Harold Land and Tadd Dameron, for sure. And Al Aarons, Brew Moore, Beaver Harris...help! I can't stop!

[Oakland]

I agree with all those on Clifton's list. But I'm going to have to choose Fats Navarro as the greatest of the "underrated". Talk to most of the younger jazz fans and few have heard of him; even many seasoned listeners may know the name but not be familiar with his genius. To be sure, in his lifetime he was considered by fellow musicians to be the greatest. (Famous Lennie Tristano quote:"Dizzy Gillespie is a fine trumpet player, but he's no Fats Navarro.")

[liamw]

Art Farmer. Everything he played was exemplary, much of it exquisite. Of his later work I especially admire the album he did of Billy Strayhorn compositions. It came out around the same time as Joe Henderson's and has probably been overlooked for that reason.

Like others who've responded to this question, I can't stop at just one. I think alot of the West Coast players who got stigmatized by association with "West Coast Jazz" have been overlooked: good & often ingenious bebop players. Some names: Buddy Collette (on all his instruments), Bob Cooper (on tenor), pianist Russ Freeman, trumpeter Conte Candoli. Also such other West Coasters not associated with "cool" as Teddy Edwards, Harold Land, & Carl Perkins (already nominated). And I think Jimmy Hamilton never got the credit he deserved in Ellington's band.

[omar zamora]

Liamw! What a coincidence - I was just about to mention Russ Freeman. Definitely underrated.

I don't know if I'd call Art Farmer underrated, though.

[LeMo]

Underrated?
For sure:

- Frank Wrigth
- Frank Lowe
- Glen Spearman
- Charles Tyler

Most of them are dead, by the way.

In Europe, the great Paul Dunmall, the marvellous Gerd Dudek and the too easely forgotten Christof Lauer.

In Japan, the incredible Abe Kaoru who played in solo setting most of his very short life.

[clifton]

Some responses: Underrated West Coasters, Jack Sheldon. As for Charles Tyler, he was especially underrated on baritone sax, which was actually his best horn IMHO. Most underrated bassist could be Ronnie Boykins. Single most underrated musician of all time remains Sonny Criss. But before jazzypaul kills me, I should also mention Von Freeman, John Gilmore, and Clifford Jordan. Chicago tenor sax at its greatest.

[Pharaohrock]

If I was being prompted for a "final answer" here, like on Millionaire, I think I would have to end up going with Fats Navarro also. He was an incredible talent, maybe the best bop-oriented trumpeter of all time, and yet knowledge about him among general jazz fans is consistently lacking....

[D.D.]

Originally posted by LeMo
Underrated?
For sure:

- Frank Lowe
- Frank Wright


Very true.

Frank Lowe's 'The Flam' is an absolute classic (AMG review) (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=7:59:21|PM&sql=Agcdkylm8xpcb).
As you know, Frank Lowe is still alive (and hopepfully, well) and while his chops have significantly deteriorated (not surprisingly, given the intensity of his blowing during the early years), I still like his ideas and playing.

As for Frank Wright, there are two excellent live CDs of his band Center of the World (with VERY underrated Bobby Few on keyboards) reissued relatively recently by Fractal Records (http://www.fractal-records.com/) - Live 1972 and Last Polka in Nancy? (see AMG entry HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=8:01:29|PM&sql=Bbe7ibkd90ak9)).

[Matthew]

Fred Anderson never seems to get much love, but this cat can blow like there's no tomorrow! "Two Days in April" is like listening to a history of the tenor, and just great music besides. In fact, Kid Jordon is another underrated player that's on the "Two Days" cd. I try to buy anything that has Anderson on it, and I've yet to be disappointed.

[clandy44]

Phineas Newborn and Lennie Niehaus. Niehaus really grabs my attention-Cook and Morton aren't that hot on him but his strength is his subtle shadings. The man is a giant in my book.

[catesta]

Phineas Newborn indeed.


How about Budd Johnson?

[Johnj]

My vote goes to Tina Brooks. I love his sound on Tenor and all of his Blue Note recordings, both as a leader and a side man, are amazing.

Definitely underrated (although not on the BN board).

[connoisseur series500]

Booker Ervin is an excellent choice in my opinion. Wish I had come up with that one myself.

I would also add George Coleman and Charlie Rouse.

On piano there's Joe Bonner, Cedar Walton (he's a giant in my mind), and John Hicks. How about Pharoah's pianist, Henderson (forgot his first name)

[Peter Johnson]

Don't know that Gigi Gryce is underrated, but he definitely doesn't get the props he deserves.

Have to throw my hat in the ring with Uri Caine--completely fascinating player who can make almost any style his own.

How about Tyrone Washington?

[BeRiGaN]

Well, this a list that could truly go on and on...don't forget the old school folks! How many here have ever heard Miff Mole? Considering most of the time you read about him, the first line is "the First Modern Trombonist" there seems to be very little interest in his music today.

Adrian Rollini might be a little better known because of playing with Bix, but still kind of a cult figure(for want of a better phrase)
But he played a fluid solo on the sax just about earlier than anyone, save Bechet, and Trambauer...

Jack Purvis! Ghost found out about a 3 cd set from Oracle, and ordered it..(Did you get it yet, West Coast Ghost?)Played a hell of good trumpet when not in jail in the 20'sand 30's!

Jabbo Smith! Sounds like a link between Louie and Roy...(Since people always say Roy is the link between Louis and Dizzy, it is only fair)

Manny Klein! I once read in the liner notes to some Columbia cd that Michael Brooks said he was the most underrated musician of the 20th century! I don't know about that, but then again, I have heard precious little of his music, just a few tracks here and there...
P.D.? Ghost? Anyone else got some moldy figs to dust off?

[Fran]

Known, but little heard or appreciated:
JOE WILDER

[Don Brown]

Wardell Gray
Tadd Dameron
Bill Harris (trombone)
Charlie Shavers
Sonny Berman

[clifton]

Berigan's post raises what I consider an important point. (Sorry I didn't put the caps in, BeR). That is, we tend to neglect pre-bop musicians. I think Earl Hines is now underrated. His solo piano albums from the 1960's and '70's should be mandatory listening. Hines was never an easily defined player. Like Hawkins and Elllington, he absorbed much from bebop and never lost his sense of modernity. Dissonance and rhythmic daring were very much a part of Hines' vocabulary. Other underrated, or forgotten, or taken-for-granted pre-boppers: Buck Clayton, Russell Procope, Freddie Jenkins, Billy Butterfield, Sandy Williams, Ben Thigpen, Sid Catlett, Howard Johnson (the alto player, not the tuba-baritone sax player, although he's underrated, too). Oh yeah, two modern guys: Danny Moore, Frank Strozier.

[BeRiGaN]

Originally posted by Don Brown
Wardell Gray
Tadd Dameron
Bill Harris (trombone)
Charlie Shavers
Sonny Berman

I will gladly second Bill Harris and Sonny Berman! (Not that the others are not great)
I have been grabbing as much Bill Harris as I can afford of late....Live at Birdland 1952, and Live at the Three Deuces, Vol. 2,
and will get for my B-day Bill Harris and Friends...the more I hear him with Herman, the more I scratch my head as to why he didn't get more opportunities to record! Oh, and the first Live at the Three Deuces, has a track, "Characteristically, B.H." that just plain rocks! Davey Tough , Charlie Ventura(Whose name comes first on the cd if you ever do look for it)Well, High Note appreciates me going on and on about the cds at least;)

[notgreennotblue]

I can add nothing new here nor can I limit my selection to a "single most underrated" but I have long been a fan of Tristano.
However, just last November I was trying to broaden my horizons and looking into Fats Navarro (definately underrated) I heard Tadd Dameron!!!:D Also, here's another vote for Phineas. He's no innovator but never disappoints.

[kenny weir]

I'm a long way short of being a rabid Charlie Christian fan, but I reckon he's the man in terms of under-rated.

Not so much because of his influence on jazz guitarists and jazz in general, but because - to my ears anyway - he influenced so many musicians, guitarists and more, OUTSIDE the jazz world.

[orroonie]

David "Fathead" Newman
Earl Bostic
Tubby Hayes

[brownie]

Tony Fruscella
Barney Wilen
and Booker Ervin and Lucky Thompson who have already been mentioned

[shawn·m]

Shafi Hadi (ahem), not that I’m biased or anything. Nor will I ever change my mind. Never. Except there’s this Tina Brooks guy, and Billy Pierce is kickin’ and…

[BeRiGaN]

Originally posted by clifton
Berigan's post raises what I consider an important point. (Sorry I didn't put the caps in, BeR). That is, we tend to neglect pre-bop musicians. I think Earl Hines is now underrated. His solo piano albums from the 1960's and '70's should be mandatory listening. Hines was never an easily defined player. Like Hawkins and Elllington, he absorbed much from bebop and never lost his sense of modernity. Dissonance and rhythmic daring were very much a part of Hines' vocabulary. Other underrated, or forgotten, or taken-for-granted pre-boppers: Buck Clayton, Russell Procope, Freddie Jenkins, Billy Butterfield, Sandy Williams, Ben Thigpen, Sid Catlett, Howard Johnson (the alto player, not the tuba-baritone sax player, although he's underrated, too). Oh yeah, two modern guys: Danny Moore, Frank Strozier.
Don't worry about the nAmE! Folks from BN can tell you I had more name changes the JLo has had husbands!
Clifton, you mention some others that do not get their fair share of praise, Sid Catlett, Buck Clayton...I couldn't think of Ruben Reeves name, a bit like Jabbo Smith, but never heard of him till I got a cd on ebay with Omer Simeon and he......I don't know how much talk there was on your board before, but one of the many nice things about the BN board was you could talk about ANY jazz person/period and there would be at least one or 2(or more) fans of that person/genre, whathaveyou....
Give us a few weeks, and we should stop talking about the old board:rolleyes: ;)

[clifton]

I always forget about Budd Johnson. Shame on me because I saw him live quite often and he was always wonderful. He was another unsung hero who kept evolving, as his "La Nevada" solo on "Out Of The Cool" proves. For giants who were/are underrated: Von Freeman. I even got to see him live once. Also, because I'm obsessive about this, I reiterate: Sonny Criss is the most underrated jazz musician of all time. I wish Mosaic would do a set of Criss on Prestige.

[AfricaBrass]

Originally posted by clifton
Also, because I'm obsessive about this, I reiterate: Sonny Criss is the most underrated jazz musician of all time. I wish Mosaic would do a set of Criss on Prestige.

I love Sonny Criss. I'm glad you mentioned him. I think a lot of those Central Avenue cats were underrated. You had guys like Teddy Edwards, Howard McGhee, Wardell Gray.

How many more (if any) Criss albums are there on Prestige that haven't been reissued?

[jazzypaul]

Clifton, this is where I get to make you jealous. Not only have I seen Von more times than I can count, I've also had a few chances to hang with the man. He's one of the most charming, caring and compassionate cats you'll ever meet. And, when he wants to be, one of the single funniest musicians you might ever run across.

If we're gonna talk about underrated cats from Chicago (Russ Freeman, Von and Fred have already been mentioned...), how about Jodie Christian? Eddie Harris' piano player in the 60's, and on all sorts of stuff, and a phenomenal piano player who can play it all.

[Kerry]

I second John Gilmore :)
What about Jimmy Giuffre? Truly a saxophonist who's moved with the times, from swing to Third Stream.

And amazing vocalists/pianists Andy Bey and Shirley Horn. They are spectacular musicians who don't get much of the press these days.

[walkin]

John Handy

Ever hear the Mingus album Right Now Live At The Jazz Workshop?Handy plays an amazing solo on New Fables:cool:

I agree with Fran on Joe Wilder;I have his Savoy album Wilder n Wilder,some great playing on that.

[BruceH]

Many good suggestions here. But I want to second Conte Candolli. He's one of the greats on his instrument yet never gets mentioned among the great trumpeters, at least in print.

Also: Teddy Edwards, Harold Land, Jack Sheldon, Jabbo Smith--YES!!

[clandy44]

Today's nominees: Woody Shaw and Joe Newman

[Kerry]

Woody Shaw, great nominee....

love him on Chick Corea's Inner Space.

[Fran]

As mentioned above Howard McGhee
Who can ever forget his work on the Original Jazz at the Philharmonic, "How High the Moon", on the Asch label.I sat as amazed listening to that concert as I did the firt time I heard Woody's trumpet section take off on their unison chorus on "Caldonia", Maynard Ferguson's "All the Things You Are" and Berman's "Sidewalks Of Cuba".
Howard was one of those unfortunates who screwed up his career with narcotics and was out of circulation for quite a few years. he had a fantastic tone. sharp, clear but not piercing. He did suceed in his comeback before he passed away.

[sideshowbob]

Have to agree with Booker Ervin, Charlie Rouse and John Gilmore.

I'd also suggest Roland Kirk. Rarely treated as seriously as he should be, probably because of the theatricality of his live performances.

-- Ian

[BeRiGaN]

sideshowbob,
big fan of your work!:D
Can we have a selection from the HMS Pinafore???

[sideshowbob]

LOL. I'm performing it now, just for you ...

-- Ian

[Ted O'Reilly]

The names mentioned here so far are pretty much all wonderful players, leading to the question "Why do we consider them 'underrated'?"

Don't we really mean 'underrecognized'?

[J Larsen]

I haven't seen Louis Smith's name in this thread yet.

[Brownian Movement]

Bill Coleman was about as good as Roy Eldridge and Red Allen.
Everyone knows of Django Reinhardt, but his enormous influence on contemporary bluegrass music is not often noted. And Lester Young didn't just inspire tenor saxophonists--the whole West Coast jazz scene of the 50s and 60s was essentially a Lester Young-inspired school of jazz.

[Pete Souders]

one whose name I don't think I saw here:
violinist Stuff Smith!
brings up a question, though - he was very popular, or is it well recognized at one point, and then really fell out of view when (i guess) bebop and then West Coast came in, just like a lot of the swing era people, but then came back to some prominence in the 50's (ironically, partly through the sponsorship of Dizzy Gillespie)

another guy in a kind of similar situation would be Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson, partly restored due to the great admiration for him by Cannonball Adderley.

They were both really bad cats. And both a little bit misunderstood by their propensity to inject some humorous antics into their music.

[Finger Poppin']

My pick would have to be Bleeding Gums Murphy. :D ;)

__________________________________________
If you don't know who he is, man your no fan of jazz.

[Rooster_Ties]

CHARLES TOLLIVER!!!

To me, he's every bit as important as Lee Morgan and Woody Shaw. From his sideman dates in the 60's, to his own dates mostly in the 70's - Tolliver was a killer player, and wrote some incredible tunes too.

If I could snap my fingers, and double the recorded output of only just one player - Tolliver would be the one I'd choose.

=====

That said, I also think Tina Brooks is another incredible player who was sadly overlooked in his own time. Thankfully we now have four full Blue Note albums of his to enjoy, but oh how I wish he had gone on to record a dozen more.

[Pete Souders]

re "Bleedin' Gums Murphy"

he really had some 'chops' didn't he. Unfortunately, his main axe was harmonica, and when he played, he tended to spray the front tables with a reddish material. They made him start wearing a surgical mask when he was having some undefined health problems, and it kind of affected his tone.

[Adam]

Originally posted by connoisseur series500
How about Pharoah's pianist, Henderson (forgot his first name)

William (Bill) Henderson

How about Mal Waldron? My favorite, but still incredibly undervalued especially in the U.S.

[EKE BBB]

My vote goes to:

-Herbie Nichols
-Booker Little
-Tadd Dameron

[tipitina]

Another vote for Kidd Jordan. Not only a fantastic saxaphonist but top-notch educator.

What about Norah Jones?

[king ubu]

Richard Williams
("New Horn In Town" on Candid, sideman apperances with Max Roach)

Dizzy Reec
(all his Blue Note stuff)

of the already mentioned sax players:
Budd Johnson, Lucky Thompson, Tina Brooks, Shafi Hadi, George Coleman

how about

Leo Wright
(even if he was the reason why Alfred Lion didn't like him on Johnny Coles' only - there goes another - and Blue Mitchell's - and one more - first Blue Note recording, I think he's quite good.

Then how about
Sonny Red ?

and Randy Weston - though I'm not sure he can be considered underrated?

and one of my personal favorites:
Sonny Clark

and definitely the quite often mentioned Booker Ervin

Mal Waldron (R.i.p.)

and at 80 still going strong Sam Rivers

Ernie Henry

ubu

[Bataki]

Apart from some names that I 'll mention at the end of this post, it must be me! I tried and tried, but whenever I got up on the bandstand the audience started to whistle (means f-k you in Sweden), throwing things like rotten tomatoes and such at me, so it was not so easy for me to start playing. Once a guy took off one of his sports shoes and threw it towards me, and the shoe hit the bell of my alto and got stuck in there! And the crowd clapped their hands!

But I never gave up. I had heard that Don Byas and Charlie Parker never used any weaker reed than number 6 or 7, so, why not try, I thought. It was a fine night on a Swedish jazz club, and I had managed to sneak up onto the bandstand without the usual boo... cries. What happened this night was quite unbelievable! I couldn't get a single tone out of my alto!! But, my quartet played on and on, and finally the audience got completely mad! They applauded me like crazy.... After the show, I asked the club manager about this, and he said. "well, this was the longest and also the best silence a hornblower ever had produced in my club!".

But, never give up! Last years poll of the best 500 jazz alto players of Sweden took me to place Nº 432!:) Next year I'm going to hit the best 300!

Somebody mentioned Fats Navarro and Herbie Nichols in this thread, and I really second that! In Giant Steps - Bebop and the Creators of Modern Jazz 1944-65 (1999), Payback Press, by Kenny Mathieson, those two guys have really fine and interesting articles written by Kenny. Read them! Some other member here also mentioned Tadd Dameron . I go for that too. He is one of the top ten composer in the world of jazz tunes!

[kh1958]

Trumpeter Gene Shaw. His three, virtually unknown, Argo recordings showcase his leadership as well as some of the most beautiful, lyrical trumpet sounds on record.

[clifton]

Interesting thing about underrated musicians: Once you list the acknowledged giants, it seems that everyone else is underrated. Example: On alto sax I think we can probably agree that the giants are Hodges, Benny Carter, Bird, Desmond, McLean, Cannonball, Pepper, Ornette, Dolphy. Personally, I would add Criss, Phil Woods, Roscoe Mitchell, Stitt, maybe Konitz, maybe Threadgill, maybe Kenny Garrett. But look who that leaves out. The omissions are the underrated players, and it's a very impressive list: Willie Smith, Earle Warren, John Jackson, Ernie Henry, Charlie Mariano, Herb Geller, Sahib Shihab, Joe Harriott, Derek Humble, Wes Anderson, Antonio Hart, Stefano di Battista, Charles McPherson, Bud Shank, Sonny Fortune....well, you get the idea. As for you jazzypaul: I consider you fortunate to have met and hung with Vonski. I guess I'll have to get to Chicago somehow. I do envy you that experience. Another interesting point: I'm 53 and I'm guessing I'm older than a lot of people on this board. So I find it a little odd that Fats Navarro is now considered underrated. When I really got into jazz in 1965 or so Fats Navarro was considered one of the all-time great trumpeters. There was Armstrong, Diz, Brownie, Miles, Roy Eldridge, and Navarro. Guys like Kenny Dorham were still alive and wailing. Lee Morgan and Freddie Hubbard were young lions still carving out their reputations. I know it should be obvious, but it sure is amazing how the passage of time alters our perspective.

[Phil Kelly]

I thought I'd dredge this thread up because last night I was reminded what an incredible mainstream bop pianist Oliver Jones is while watching a duo show w/ Dave Young ..

If he hadn't by geographic accident come from the same town as OP, he might have gotten more recognition ..he deserves it.

BTW: second on the Herbie Nichols and Tadd Dameron ..

[GA Russell]

I don't think many under-40 jazz fans know that one man was responsible for bringing the rock beat and fashions (including hair) into jazz, and thus created what over time became fusion. While the black musicians in the east were either going broke quickly or making free jazz nobody wanted to listen to and going broke a little less quickly; and the white musicians in the west were "moving" to Hollywood and Vegas orchestra pits, one man kept jazz going by taking the art of improvisation and joining it to the reasons rock was popular - Larry Coryell.

[kenny weir]

I'm looking forward to reading in full the contents of this thread, later in the day when I have time.

In the meantime, just a thought: Perhaps the "Single most underrated Jazz musician of all time" is, or was, by defintiion almost certainly someone from outside the US.

[Chuck Nessa]

Louis Armstrong, Sidney Bechet, Jelly Roll Morton and Earl Hines.

[clinthopson]

Slim Gaillard - o'roonie!

[clifton]

We lost a lot of this thread in The Crash Of '03, so I'm sticking with Sonny Criss as the most underrated jazz musician ever, followed closely by Lucky Thompson and Von Freeman. Now I'll submit my most underrated drummers: Shadow Wilson, Charles Moffett, Clifford Jarvis, Ray Bauduc. There are many, many more, but these are the ones who come to mind at the moment.

[peter rh]

Underrated, under appreciated or not generally accepted as
important figures - does it really matter how this is defined?
Three names, Buck Clayton -Wild Bill Davison and Bud Freeman.
I'm not about to argue that these gentlemen were giants,but
they have certainly given myself and many more,a vast amount
of enjoyment over many years :)

[Quatermass]

Nat Gonella- British dixieland/swing trumpet player, a hell of a lot better then some of the tradders.

Wardell Grey and Illnois Jacquet, they tend to be overshadowed by Dexter Gordon, Pres and Hawk.

[Blue Lake]

Dupree Bolton

[clifton]

Illinois Jacquet should be given his due as one of the greatest tenor players ever, and an enormously influential one as well. More grossly underrated tenors: John Gilmore, Clifford Jordan, Dick Wilson, Dave Rempis, Teddy Edwards, Willis Jackson, Houston Person, Fred Anderson, and of course, Von Freeman and Lucky Thompson.

[EKE BBB]

And talking ´bout saxophonists I think Chu Berry hasn´t been mentioned yet.

[bombastic]

Wingy Manone. :(

[clifton]

Ironically, if anyone had mentioned Chu Berry in, say, 1965, any self-respecting jazz fan would have agreed that Chu was one of the all-time great tenor players. Now, like most pre-bop players, he's a lesser-known, and therefore, underrated musician. Also underrated: Don Byas and Budd Johnson.

[bombastic]

How about J.R. Monterose. I've heard he's a great tenor player, but i've never heard him play.

[Lazaro Vega]

I was reading Alyn Shipton's New History of Jazz today and he described the excitement caused by Chu Berry and Roy Eldrige playing after hours in Harlem in the 1930's. Brought to mind that Commodore recording.

[Wombat Seedcake]

In the time I've been on this bulletin board, I dont think anyone other than me has mentioned contemporary jazz guitar supremo Martin Taylor. That Chet Atkins rated him as one of the best guitarists in the world should be some indication and Chet played with some of the hottest 6 stringers ever - Jerry Reed, Mark Knopfler and Tommy Emmanuel for starters. MT combines the styles of Art Tatum, Joe Pass (yes, I know he's a piano man) and Django. He also throws in folk, flamenco and African hi-life when needed. I recommend his solo albums 'Solo', 'Artistry' and 'Portraits', his Django tribute releases 'Spirit of Django' and 'Gypsy' and his stuff with Stefan Grapelli 'Years apart'.

Beware, if you're a guitar player. Listening to his cover of Earl Klugh's 'Kiko' off 'Portraits' might make you feel like giving up (ps. no overdubbing here)

[peter rh]

Martin Taylor gets regular mentions on this board, and I don't
think anyone doubts his ability.References usually get made in
threads about British new releases/recommendations - I'd suggest a search but don't have a lot of confidence in the facility
at present

[a.j. zeitlin]

Cedar Walton, Phil Woods, Illinois Jacquet, Chu Berry, Tad Dameron, Lucky Thompson, Fats (incredibly, a name that hadn't first occurred to me), Art Farmer and probably many others. I have my doubts about Phineas Newborn whose winding career isn't easilly tracked.

[clifton]

More underrated tenor players: George Coleman, Dewey Redman, Karl Drevo, Harold Land, Harold Vick.

[peter rh]

Roy Williams deserves more attention and appreciation :)

[ebrew]

Originally posted by Rooster_Ties
CHARLES TOLLIVER!!!

To me, he's every bit as important as Lee Morgan and Woody Shaw. From his sideman dates in the 60's, to his own dates mostly in the 70's - Tolliver was a killer player, and wrote some incredible tunes too.

If I could snap my fingers, and double the recorded output of only just one player - Tolliver would be the one I'd choose.


It's great to see Charles Tolliver on this list. I got turned on to him about two or three months ago and I'm wondering why I haven't heard his name mentioned more in trumpet jazz circles.

[clifford_thornton]

Originally posted by bombastic
How about J.R. Monterose. I've heard he's a great tenor player, but i've never heard him play.

He is great, a very intense player. I wish that his LPs were a bit more 'findable,' though. Rrrgh.

"The Message" (Jaro) has been reissued by Fresh Sound on CD, and is probably one of his finest moments on wax.

[Frank Mullen]

I don't think that this musician was underrated by his peers at the time. but his name is drifting into the great unknown with each passing year. Al Klink had the misfortune to be the second tenor sax in the civilian Glenn Miller band behind Tex Beneke. I had the good fortune to hear him at a jazz festival in Jersey a year or so before he died and he was masterful.
At his funeral his daughter played what she said was his favorite recording: it was a recording of dog barks sounding out "In the Mood".

[Fran]

Truely underrated is a hard concept, as is obvious from the lists above. Some of the nominees are actually very well known, highly regarded and revered.
But, I think underrated fits Don Lamond. Possibly the greatest big band drummer we've yet seen.

[Rump Roller]

Billy Harper gets my vote. I think that he is so under recognized in the US. He gets a whole lot more recognition in Japan and Europe than he does over here, but I guess that is nothing new for people who play this type of music.

[LAL]

I'd nominate trombonist Kid Ory as one of (not THE) the most underrated jazz musicians. Some critics claim he had average technique but then again was good enough to play in the legendary jazz bands of Jelly Roll Morton, King Oliver and Louis.

[clifton]

Here's a few more: Joe Harriott, Pete Christlieb, Lou Levy, Bobby Shew, Charles Tyler (especially on baritone sax).

[bixmiles]

You can think about so many guys who wallow year after year under the radar. There is this one guy named Tom Smith. He plays trombone on a world class standard, is one of the top jazz researchers of his generation, and has started more community jazz outereach ensembles and related programs than anyone ever has on the planet. His work in Romania alone is out of this world. In fact he was even featured in a huge article on this very website. Yet how many people ever mention this guy? There must be others like him, and it's too bad.

[kazeye]

Singer Jackie Paris
http://www.jackieparis.com/
Regards
kazeye

[tpt1]

It's great to see Charles Tolliver on this list. I got turned on to him about two or three months ago and I'm wondering why I haven't heard his name mentioned more in trumpet jazz circles. True. "The Ringer" has been one of my desert island albums for more than 25 years. A must-have for trumpet players or fans of great jazz trumpeters. CT fell off the radar for quite a few years, but I heard his big band at Dizzy's Club the other night and he is cookin'! Great to see him back.

Another underrated jazz musician? Ralph Peterson (http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Ralph_Peterson.html). He was playing drums with Charles Tolliver's Big Band - and he really lit it up.

[lorenzini]

Dewey Redman

[jazzofonik]

Here's a few more: Joe Harriott, Pete Christlieb, Lou Levy, Bobby Shew, Charles Tyler (especially on baritone sax).

"Big up" to Joe harriott, and while we're at it, to fellow Jamaicans Dizzy Reece ( a truly great trumpet voice) and bassist Coleridge Goode

[Hot Ptah]

James P. Johnson, Don Redman.

[Steve Reynolds]

Paul Dunmall

[jazzofonik]

Not too frequently mentioned (as far as I can see) butto my mind one of the greats, Kenny Dorham, and again on bass, the late (recently departed) Keter Betts, and also drummer Ben Riley

[aakira009]

I would say Ernest Ranglin and Jackie Mittoo. More famous as Reggae musicians maybe but they played some great Jazz too. Also Tommy McCook and Roland Alphonso. They're legends in Jamaica but completely overlooked by Jazz fans.

[aquabenz]

Paul Dunmall

I definitely agree with that one and have to say that I firmly believe that the jazz/improvisation scene today sports more super-talented (and more creative) musicians than any of the previous ages of jazz's development. However, the world-widened talent pool (which comes heavy from Europe, Asia, and elsewhere just as much than America) has made it possible for all of these geniuses to suffer from relative underratedness. No offense to the greats of days gone by, but the amount of space commanded by Blue Note reissues, Prestige reissues, and releases available from people who were mentioned in the Ken Burns Jazz documentary is staggering and offensive when held up to the trouble that new artists and smaller independent labels go through trying to get exposure (especially in America). Thank goodness for mail order and the internet. If it were 1985, I would have had to live in London or New York to even know that players like Dunmall and, say, Tim Berne and Marty Ehrlich, existed. You go to a music store around here and the jazz section carries a few of the classic name drops (Davis, Coltrane, Gillespie, Parker, Fitzgerald) and the Grammy-nominated flashs in the pan and hype-bombs like Norah Jones and Kenny G.. Besides that, you have to dig. So my vote goes to every talented modern jazz musician whose unique material is constantly held up to the greats from 20 years before they born.

I recently read a review of Dunmall's In your shell like , which was generally positive but slogged on one of the pieces, saying that Paul brought out a "Coltrane" sound that wasn't entirely convincing. Is that supposed to imply that Dunmall's ideal goal is to be a convincing Coltrane clone and not be Paul Dunmall. He may have started from similar musical roots as Trane in some ways, but I think that the comparison is unnecessary and out of place. I guarantee you Coltrane isn't worrying over such things as much as jazz listeners today.

[jazzofonik]

I would say Ernest Ranglin and Jackie Mittoo. More famous as Reggae musicians maybe but they played some great Jazz too. Also Tommy McCook and Roland Alphonso. They're legends in Jamaica but completely overlooked by Jazz fans.

the great Jackie Mittoo might not show up on most jazz radars, but Ernie gets quite a bit of mainstream jazz attention, although largely through his collaborations with Monty Alexander. His latest CD, Surfin' wasa featured disc on AAJ. Ranglin's also held high by US ska revival bands as well as with world music aficionados through his joints with Baba Maal (senegal) and the like

[ridgeback]

Art Farmer, Benny Golson, Donald Byrd, George Coleman, Victor Feldman come to mind.

[gabegabrielsky]

I'm a little distressed by this thread as several contributions list names but without any rationale as to why and how these people were under rated. Who rates people after all? For the most part it is critics. That being the case, most of the names I've seen on this list were not at all under rated as far as I can see, but mostly got their just due.

Having said that, two jazz musicians come to my mind as having been under rated. One is 20s drummer Vic Berton. Armstrong (who was busted with Berton for pot smoking) considered him one of the best drummers of the period. Of course it's also the case that one of Armstrong's favorite bands was Guy Lombardo so I suppose his critical evaluations should be viewed in that light. On the other hand more than any other drummer besides Jo Jones Berton was responsible for the technical development of the modern drum kit (wire brushes, ride cymbals and a precusor of the high hat). For that alone he deserves recognition. He was also Bix Beiderbeck's first professional manager and as such was responsible for exposing Bix to a mass audience. He also coined the term the 5 Pennies for the Red Nichols band. In that band he also played bass parts on the tympani, the first jazz drummer to do so and until recently the only one. By th late 30s Berton had quit the jazz business to work full time in the Hollywood studios and thus he became largely forgotten by the jazz public.

A second nomination I would give for most under rated jazz musician would be Chet Baker. It is true that Baker had and has both a huge and cult like following, but in general critics have panned his work, finding it mediocre, except for the brief period when he played with Mulligan.

[gabegabrielsky]

In a sense I think Maynard Ferguson is under rated. Critics acknowledged his technical proficiency while questioning his taste. On the other hand he was astonishing in the middle register (where he seldom played or plays - indeed, after the mid 50s he seems to have given up his jazz chops altogether for stratospheric pyrotechnics).

[gabegabrielsky]

I think a lot of regionally based musicians who chose not to tour were probably under rated precisely because they chose not to tour, perhaps didn't get decent recording contracts or distribution. I suspect that for that very reason many of these figures are unknown because of the above and thus under rated. That being the case it's hard to say who some of them might be. Bill Harris (the guitar player, not the trombonist) from Baltimore comes to mind. Drummer Chris Columbo from Atlantic City. To a certain extent Tal Farlow. Singer Jerri Southern. Singer Marilyn Moore (sometimes thought of as the white Billie Holiday - really more forgotten than under rated though she was at the center of some critical controversy). Philly pianist Jimmy Wisner.

[gabegabrielsky]

Ray Charles as an alto player. IMHO world class, but largely unrecognized on that instrument.

[stillpres]

Benny Carter?

[thedwork]

coltrane and ellington :thewave

[Thespheremon]

Wow, I searched and I searched and I finally found this thread!! I would have to say that IMO, hands down, the most underrated jazz musician would have to be Don Ellis. My high school band director turned me onto him a few years ago, and I have to say that I have never heard anything like Ellis. From his playing to his composition, he still constantly amazes me. After his death, it's almost as if he just fell off the face of the earth from what I've read, because you just don't hear anyone mentioning him anymore, and that's a real shame if you ask me...

~Thespheremon ~pimp:

[Fender Rhodes Freak]

I'm going to go with Joe Farrell. He was a talented multi-reedist who managed to succeed in the black-oriented jazz world. In the part of their website where they do artist profiles, Downbeat doesn't even mention Joe.

[John L]

I guess that there are different ways to interpret "underrated."

One way is to equate it with "unnoticed." There are many great jazz artists who, for one reason or another, are not widely known. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they are "underrated" in the literal sense. Example: Dick Oats. Not many jazz fans may have heard of him, but I would hesitate to say that he is underrated. Those who do know him tend to rate him very highly. Among musicians, he is very highly respected.

For "most underrated," I might choose Gene Harris, a fine and original pianist who often gets ragged on by high flown jazz critics who demand their music to be more "complex."

[cleveland jazz]

al haig, maybe. from what i've heard he pioneered a lot of right hand comping in response to the soloist, but besides working with bird i haven't heard a lot about him.

[Campus Five]

Allan Reuss

[thedwork]

Pat Metheny :D :hail :thewave :dill: :D :hail :thewave :dill: :D :hail :thewave :dill:


and oh yeah - Dominic Lalli, Frank Rosaly, and Zirque Bonner.

[theoldsearock]

Joe "King" Oliver.

Why? Well, according to Armstong himself, Armstrong learned many of the things that he played from Joe Oliver. If there had been no Oliver then the likelihood of Armstrong doing what Armstrong did would have been rather remote. And Armstrong changed so much on so many different levels.

[Tom K]

The most underrated jazz musician? That must be ... sorry, forget his name. He plays ... sorry, the instrument escapes me. But I'm sure you-all haven't heard of him, so you know who I mean.

[jav]

Considering the talent required to make it as a jazz musician and the sorry level of music appreciation held by most listeners, I would say just about all jazz musicians are underrated.

[thedwork]

Considering the talent required to make it as a jazz musician and the sorry level of music appreciation held by most listeners, I would say just about all jazz musicians are underrated.

:yeahthat: :clap: :yeahthat: :clap:

[Swingburn]

Wesley Willis

[jazzcritic]

Hughes Herdovum

[Balicat]

Charlie Rouse.

During the years when the jazz world was going GAH GAH about John Coltrane, Charlie Rouse was playing so much tenor sax. I've been listening to him alot recently on Monk recordings from about 1959 to 66. Rouse was one great player of the blues.

[Dennis_M]

Wow, I searched and I searched and I finally found this thread!! I would have to say that IMO, hands down, the most underrated jazz musician would have to be Don Ellis. My high school band director turned me onto him a few years ago, and I have to say that I have never heard anything like Ellis. From his playing to his composition, he still constantly amazes me. After his death, it's almost as if he just fell off the face of the earth from what I've read, because you just don't hear anyone mentioning him anymore, and that's a real shame if you ask me...

~Thespheremon ~pimp:

I agree completely. Ellis' only downfall was that he needed to make a buck, so he transitioned into jazz/fusion/rock. But his early big band stuff was amazing. Everybody should listen to: Don Ellis Orchestra Live at Monterey, Live in 3 2/3 and Electric Bath. These are great albums, full of energy and imagination. I often wonder what Ellis would have accomplished had he lived longer.

[Drummer22]

Chuck Wayne, guitarist with the original George Shearing Quartet.

Booker Ervin, tenor mentioned several times here.

Art Tatum besides almost single-handedly advancing the harmonic structure of the 1930's & 1940's music into the modern era, played with enormous skill and "manufactured" meter in most of his "compositions".

Roy Haynes, supurb drummer from the 1940's into the 1960's. Continued to advance and improve along the way. If you listen to his style in the early "bop" era to the style he used with Getz-Brookmayer group in the early 60's is quite a stretch.

[thedwork]

don't know if he's been mentioned yet (long thread...), but i'll put a vote in for Benny Bailey. just listened to some playing of his i used to listen to a long time ago (Swiss Movement anyone? ~pimp: ), and he is just totally killing it. also, i watched a video of Mingus At Montreux yesterday, and wasn't really enjoying it so much until Bailey sat in and played on Porkpie. whoa... it's funny watching Mulligan's expressions while he listens to Bailey...

[Jimmer]

Charlie Rouse.

During the years when the jazz world was going GAH GAH about John Coltrane, Charlie Rouse was playing so much tenor sax. I've been listening to him alot recently on Monk recordings from about 1959 to 66. Rouse was one great player of the blues.

I agree with you Balicat. I recently bought Monk and Criss-Cross with Rouse. I've also got Donald Byrd's Byrd in Hand and Rouse shines there, too. His leader album Takin' Care Of Business is high up on my to-buy list. I've listened to samples on the net and am impressed. I'm not sure about the Bossa Nova Bacchanal album, but I would love to hear the rest of the session that the bonus track "One For Five" is from. Rouse with Hubbard, Tyner, Cranshaw and Higgins is an awesome line-up!

http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/460/460568.jpg http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/070/70467.jpg http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/060/61274.jpg http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/070/72904.jpg http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/490/499386.jpg

[JEV1AA]

Underrated?

Don Ellis is not only underrated, he has completely vanished from the face of Jazz. Very few re-issues of his music, almost no radio and most certainly no video. He is lost in the archives of a generation that fought among themselves in a era of change. Ellis died in 1978 at the age of 44. He accomplished more as a musical artist and as a 20th century musician than most in a lifetime. He was most certainly one of the most innovative Orchestra Leaders of our times and he somehow made sense of those odd-metered arrangements and time signatures that look like zip codes. Rumors still run rampant about his lifestyle and even his death. Folks in Jazz say; he must have been on acid to create such wild music. Others blame his heart flutter for his odd beats and hues. But the truth is he led a perfectly healthy life and was given the wrong medication in a LA hospital screwup that shortened his life. As some argue, he sold out to intermix Jazz with Rock to make money but that could not be any further from the truth. Ellis was experimenting with fusing Classical-Jazz-Rock and his own version of World Music long before anyone else had thought of it. Ask yourself this; "Is Miles Davis truely the Godfather of Fusion? Ellis gets credit for nothing because his music is seldom even heard. He is considered a outcast in Jazz and folks in high places archivally speaking in Jazz won't speak of him or simply don't have a catagory to put him in. The fact is, Ellis is a icon.. a Musical Artist of the Ages. A Man that mastered every phase of Jazz up to the point of his death and was way beyond everyone else. So, if that is the truth then why is his name gone from the music world? I try to answer those very questions in my film on Don Ellis titled: ELECTRIC HEART premiering at The LA Jazz Institute in May 2007. For further information go: http://www.DonEllisFilm.com

I hope someday the word underrated is never used when you bring up the name of the incredible Don Ellis.

John V.

[Zombywolf]

Pat Metheny :D :hail :thewave :dill: :D :hail :thewave :dill: :D :hail :thewave :dill:


and oh yeah - Dominic Lalli, Frank Rosaly, and Zirque Bonner.

I don't think Pat Metheny is underrated when compared to others. George Benson imo is a bit underrated his Witchcraft album was amazing and yes I think some of Frank Zappa's jazz work is under appreciated.

[Thespheremon]

Underrated?

Don Ellis is not only underrated, he has completely vanished from the face of Jazz. Very few re-issues of his music, almost no radio and most certainly no video. He is lost in the archives of a generation that fought among themselves in a era of change. Ellis died in 1978 at the age of 44. He accomplished more as a musical artist and as a 20th century musician than most in a lifetime. He was most certainly one of the most innovative Orchestra Leaders of our times and he somehow made sense of those odd-metered arrangements and time signatures that look like zip codes. Rumors still run rampant about his lifestyle and even his death. Folks in Jazz say; he must have been on acid to create such wild music. Others blame his heart flutter for his odd beats and hues. But the truth is he led a perfectly healthy life and was given the wrong medication in a LA hospital screwup that shortened his life. As some argue, he sold out to intermix Jazz with Rock to make money but that could not be any further from the truth. Ellis was experimenting with fusing Classical-Jazz-Rock and his own version of World Music long before anyone else had thought of it. Ask yourself this; "Is Miles Davis truely the Godfather of Fusion? Ellis gets credit for nothing because his music is seldom even heard. He is considered a outcast in Jazz and folks in high places archivally speaking in Jazz won't speak of him or simply don't have a catagory to put him in. The fact is, Ellis is a icon.. a Musical Artist of the Ages. A Man that mastered every phase of Jazz up to the point of his death and was way beyond everyone else. So, if that is the truth then why is his name gone from the music world? I try to answer those very questions in my film on Don Ellis titled: ELECTRIC HEART premiering at The LA Jazz Institute in May 2007. For further information go: http://www.DonEllisFilm.com

I hope someday the word underrated is never used when you bring up the name of the incredible Don Ellis.

John V.


I definitely agree here. I've got a small myspace site up as a tribute to him, and there is more of a response than I ever anticipated. I just wish that Don Ellis would get the credit that is due, because he contributed so much, and yet, he received so little.

~Thespheremon ~pimp:

[jostber]

I suggest Ran Blake. This is a great one:

http://www.tompkinssquare.com/ran_blake.html

and Charles Gayle.

[Fran]

Perhaps the simplest answer is Freddie Green - Basies time keeper for all the life of the Count and Band

[Damon_Smith]

This is easy: Dannie Richmond. Dannie Richmond is probably the single most pefect musician to ever play any instrument. His utter perfection and flawless timing often makes his stellar contributions go unnoticed. Even beyond the field of jazz I'd rank him alongside Joseph Beuys as the most perfect artist in any artform of the 20th Century.
But to paraphrase the dude: "Hey, that's just like, My Opinion, Man."

[thedwork]

I don't think Pat Metheny is underrated when compared to others. George Benson imo is a bit underrated his Witchcraft album was amazing and yes I think some of Frank Zappa's jazz work is under appreciated.

my comment on metheny being under-appreciated was tongue in cheek. i'm always posting how much i love his music in various threads on this forum so some here may have known i was kidding around. everyone around here knows he gets plenty of praise.

but i honestly feel he could never be over-appreciated ~pimp: the guy is f*cking unbelievable man.

and i feel you on Zappa. another musician that woukld be difficult to praise too highly...

[hepcat1950]

I agree completely. Ellis' only downfall was that he needed to make a buck, so he transitioned into jazz/fusion/rock. But his early big band stuff was amazing. Everybody should listen to: Don Ellis Orchestra Live at Monterey, Live in 3 2/3 and Electric Bath. These are great albums, full of energy and imagination. I often wonder what Ellis would have accomplished had he lived longer.

:yeahthat:

[Jimmer]

I think Blue Mitchell should be added to the list of underrated jazz musicians. Horace Silver's comments about Blue from this aaj interview at http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=974 say it all:

HS: Oh, Blue was great. Blue had that happy medium. He pleased the musicians as well as the public. He knew how to get funky and get on down and rock the house with his playing and he could play hip too and he could play pretty. He covered the whole thing and had a lot of feeling. I will tell you, Fred, most of all the trumpet players that came after him, followed his pattern. He set the style for trumpet playing in my quintet.

[Fender Rhodes Freak]

I think Blue Mitchell should be added to the list of underrated jazz musicians. Horace Silver's comments about Blue from this aaj interview at http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=974 say it all:

HS: Oh, Blue was great. Blue had that happy medium. He pleased the musicians as well as the public. He knew how to get funky and get on down and rock the house with his playing and he could play hip too and he could play pretty. He covered the whole thing and had a lot of feeling. I will tell you, Fred, most of all the trumpet players that came after him, followed his pattern. He set the style for trumpet playing in my quintet.

Very good point Jimmer. Blue Mitchell may not have had a distinctive sound like that of Miles Davis or Donald Byrd, but he could play all styles of jazz particularly well, especially the blues. As the 1960's came to a close, Blue Mitchell supposedly began playing music that was more blues-oriented.

[Jimmer]

Very good point Jimmer. Blue Mitchell may not have had a distinctive sound like that of Miles Davis or Donald Byrd, but he could play all styles of jazz particularly well, especially the blues. As the 1960's came to a close, Blue Mitchell supposedly began playing music that was more blues-oriented.

What impresses me about Mitchell is his diversity, his joyful exuberance and his restrained yet commanding power. It has taken me a while to hear the edge to his playing. When I first bought Jackie's Bag, for instance, it was Brooks or McLean who seemed to be the most forceful elements. Yet on repeated listenings, I was surprised by the importance of Mitchell's parts in each song. I also noticed this on the Sonny Red compilation Red, Blue & Green. After hearing Blue live on Horace Silver's Doin' the Thing-At the Village Gate, my appreciation of his talent has only deepened. One last point: shame on Blue Note for not making any mention of him in the new liner notes to Capuchin Swing. I think the picture in the traycard that shows McLean looking at Blue with admiration conveys the respect he deserves.

[rymac59]

Maybe not the most underrated, but Harold Land doesnt get the praise he deserves in my opinion.

[TASSE]

Has no body heard of Bill D'arango?

He's realy under rated.

TASSE.

[jav]

I actually saw Bill perform live, and unfortunately get booed off the stage! The date was sometime in the summer of 1979, and D'Arango's trio was opening for Grover Washington Jr. at the Front Row Theatre in Cleveland. A very bad bit of programming, as the crowd was anxious for Grover's early smooth jazz stylings and Bill came on playing free form stream of consciousness music that essentially consisted of one long uninterrupted piece. The audience went from being indifferent, to being confused, to being frustrated that they were still on stage and playing, then the booing started slowly and finally built into a crescendo that forced the trio to depart the stage one by one. A sad evening for an outstanding jazz performer, but not totally unpredictable based on the poor matching by the promoters.

[Pie-eyed blue]

Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington and Thelonious Monk. They were both international stars. But my God they should have been even BETTER known and valued!

[Radar]

I'm a big fan of Saxophonist Joe Romano, who has played with and recorded with some great bands, Buddy Rich, Woody Herman, Mangione's Jazz Brothers, and more but outside of his hometown of Rochester (although he hasn't lived here in a long time he does visit and play the local clubs occasionally) It's difficult to find anyone that's ever heard of him.

[apricissimus]

I'd like to nominate Jaki Byard. One of the top 5 jazz pianists of all time, in my opinion.

[Bill McCloskey]

The answer of course is: all of them. At least as far as the general public is concerned.

Some particular favorites of mine that don't get enough attention:

Fletcher Henderson - without him, there would be no Benny Goodman, swing, or big band sound as we know it. How many of you listen to him today.

Hot lips Page, Buck Clayton, Red Allen, Bobby Hackett, Ruby Braff, Bill Davison, Groove Holmes, Doc Cheatham, Eddie Condon, Jon-Erik Kellso, Marty Grosz, Ron Miles, Nicholas Payton, Sweets Edison, Terel Stafford, Wallace Roney, Blue Mitchell,

And of course: Clark Terry!!!

[televiper11]

Von Freeman.

A brilliant tenor player who by staying local in Chicago never got his due. Much like another underrated player Don Byas, Von straddled eras and styles with ease, bridging the divide between Hawk, Bird, Pres, and Dex. Like Booker Ervin, his tone is unique and instantly identifiable, totally tweeking the difference between inside and outside.

Tommy Turrentine

Had he been given more opportunities to record, he would've impressed the world. Tommy's trumpet playing is fluid, lyrical, and crisp.

[HutchFan]

I'll play...

If I were to pick ONE "most under-rated jazz musician," it would be Richie Beirach.

I'm still befuddled as to why Beirach isn't mentioned in the same breath as other "piano giants" like Jarrett, Corea, Hancock, et al.

[robbo]

There are at least 2 fairly recent books on jazz pianists (one of which cleverly lists 88 "top" players) that foolishly fail to mention Jess Stacy. Here was a man who drove the early Goodman band with his ferocious sense of rhythm, was a fine small group player with Pee Wee Russell, and was years ahead of his time by incorporating classical influences (witness the famous Sing Sing Sing solo at Carnegie). In some respects he foresees Jarrett and Bill Evans (both of whom, he once told me, were special favorites of his).

How those books could overlook such a major figure (so respected that he won several awards in the early 40s) is beyond me. Perhaps it was his rapid fade from the scene. Definately belongs in the top 20 jazz pianists of all time.

Plus, I'll vote again for a figure mentioned in this thread back in '03, Sonny Criss. The man had it all, blazing technique, inventive ideas and the most intense blues feeling since Hodges and Bird. A giant of his instrument, but one who didn't suffer fools gladly and made enemies, hence the long breaks in his recording and touring career.

[ndhjazz]

I'll play too...but I'll say "Top 5 underrated players" (how's that?)

* Fats Navarro
* Sonny Criss
* Johnny Dodds
* Jutta Hipp
* Tal Farlow

honorable mentions: Elmo Hope, Ray Bryant, Bobby Timmons, Hampton Hawes, Grady Tate, Jimmy Rowles

[Masada]

As far as I'm concerned, I obviously believe that people such as Ayler, Zorn, Pharoah or Braxton don't get their dues from the jazz world. However the singlemost underrated jazz musician has to be Donald Ayler.

His playing was just marvelous, on the level of Don Cherry, Miles Davis, Dave Douglas... anybody! I've only heard 3 compositions by him and they were all extremely stunning, 2 of them being on Holy Ghost (Albert Ayler's box-set) and the other one being the well-known Our Prayer.

http://www.thewire.co.uk/images/artists/ayler_albert/AYLER%20Don.jpg

[televiper11]

Horace Parlan

Another seriously underrated piano player is Horace Parlan. He never gets his due for innovating a style around his physical limitations (ie. polio crippling his hand). Carl Perkins had a similar malady but worked around it in more traditional means. Parlan, created a very monochromatic, repetitive style that actually pushes forward what Ahmad Jamal and Mal Waldron were doing with space, silence, and repetition. Parlan was incredible creative and he could swing, play the blues, and get funky. He's one of my favorite pianists.

[omar zamora]

Herbie Nichols

[Vic J]

Mick Goodrick
Harold Land
Phil Upchurch
Richie Beirach
Osie Johnson
Barry Galbraith

[jkelman]

Mick Goodrick

All great artists Vic, but have to second you especially on Mick. In Pas(s)ing, his 1979 ECM disc with John Surman (another somewhat overlooked guy), Eddie Gomez and Jack DeJohnette, is an absolute lost classic that anyone who's a fan of Pat Metheny ought to hear - not because it sounds like Pat, but because Mick, when he was already guitarist with Gary Burton when the vibraphonist recruited Pat as second guitarist, had a significant influence on Pat. If you listen to the playing on Burton's ECM discs New Quartet (without Pat) and Ring (with Pat), as well as this album and Pat's Bright Size Life, it's very clear.

Of course Pat has gone on to become his own man when it comes to the instrument, but in those early days, as he was still evolving at a rapid pace (still is, mind you!), it's hard to neglect the importance of Mick. I saw Pat and Mick in duet in Montreal back when Pat did his "By Invitation" series in 2005, and it was stupendous.

John

[Charlie F.]

All great artists Vic, but have to second you especially on Mick. In Pas(s)ing, his 1979 ECM disc with John Surman (another somewhat overlooked guy), Eddie Gomez and Jack DeJohnette, is an absolute lost classic that anyone who's a fan of Pat Metheny ought to hear - not because it sounds like Pat, but because Mick, when he was already guitarist with Gary Burton when the vibraphonist recruited Pat as second guitarist, had a significant influence on Pat. If you listen to the playing on Burton's ECM discs New Quartet (without Pat) and Ring (with Pat), as well as this album and Pat's Bright Size Life, it's very clear.

Based on your recommendation, I've just added In Pas(s)ing to the ever-growing wishlist. Thanks! BTW, I have all the other albums you mentioned in the last part of your post, so it'll be fun to do sort of a comparison test.

Of course Pat has gone on to become his own man when it comes to the instrument, but in those early days, as he was still evolving at a rapid pace (still is, mind you!), it's hard to neglect the importance of Mick. I saw Pat and Mick in duet in Montreal back when Pat did his "By Invitation" series in 2005, and it was stupendous.

John

How jealous am I that you got to see Pat in concert?

Go on, guess... :clown:

[escher]

i think that Tisziji Munoz is the most underrated jazz guitarist.
He is the John Coltrane of the guitar. I like Mclaughlin but i think that Munoz is on superior level

[ATR]

As far as I'm concerned, I obviously believe that people such as Ayler, Zorn, Pharoah or Braxton don't get their dues from the jazz world.

What jazz world do you live in? Perhaps during his lifetime, yes, Ayler wasn't properly appreciated but he got a lot of attention. Most of it, sadly, mixed or negative. As for Pharoah, he similarly got a lot of negative attention for his work in the Coltrane band from people who couldn't get with what Coltrane's sound was becoming. Being controversial is a different thing than being underrated.

On the other hand, Zorn and Braxton are two of the most well documented and reviewed jazz musicians of the avant garde. They get attention that is disproportionate to that of many musicians they have worked with. The fact is that there will never be enough opportunities for musicians like this because jazz itself is such an 'underrated' musical idiom. You want to talk underrated of the avant garde, IMO, try Julius Hemphill.

[Lee Gato]

Eric Dixon.

[Snooks]

Stanley Cowell

Pepper Adams

Lonnie Smith

Eddie Jefferson

Sonny Red

Larry Young

Harry Carney

David Murray

Nathan Davis

Ted Curson

Bill Barron

Jimmy Woode

Alan Dawson

The list goes on.............

[Prezfan]

I think when it comes to talking about the great sax players, Phil Woods gets overlooked way too often.

[Johnny Murgatroyd]

Trumpet:
Woody Shaw
Clarence Shaw
George Hudson
Charles Tolliver

Piano:
Kenny Drew
LaMonte Johnson

Sax:
Pepper Adams

[jkelman]

How jealous am I that you got to see Pat in concert?

Go on, guess... :clown:
Geez, then you really don't want to know how many times I've seen him, and in how many different groups/configurations.

I'll not torture you.....
Best!
John

[1/2 Baked, Not Fried]

I was listening to George Mraz tonight. 'Not sure he's "underrated," but he doesn't seem to be talked about much, either. Perhaps "under-appreciated." Anyway, great player.

[HutchFan]

I was listening to George Mraz tonight. 'Not sure he's "underrated," but he doesn't seem to be talked about much, either. Perhaps "under-appreciated." Anyway, great player.

YES!!!

What a beautiful, poetic, singing tone! So musical.

[Masada]

What jazz world do you live in? Perhaps during his lifetime, yes, Ayler wasn't properly appreciated but he got a lot of attention. Most of it, sadly, mixed or negative. As for Pharoah, he similarly got a lot of negative attention for his work in the Coltrane band from people who couldn't get with what Coltrane's sound was becoming. Being controversial is a different thing than being underrated.

On the other hand, Zorn and Braxton are two of the most well documented and reviewed jazz musicians of the avant garde. They get attention that is disproportionate to that of many musicians they have worked with. The fact is that there will never be enough opportunities for musicians like this because jazz itself is such an 'underrated' musical idiom. You want to talk underrated of the avant garde, IMO, try Julius Hemphill.


Meh, there is no book about Ayler nor Pharoah. You always hear about Miles, Louis, Trane, Metheny, Parker. Those two guys pretty much ruled the 60's along with Coleman and Trane, yet they're only stuck with the "weird" tag, not the jazz great tag.

I also believe that jazz in general is underrated. But how many people are not even able to SAY that Zorn and Braxton do jazz. They are living pretty good, doing big shows and everything. But what those two guys did is still mostly known by jazz fans as wankery, not as important oeuvres. Sadly!