The origins of 6/8 pattern

[zaragemca]

What s the origins of the 6/8 pattern,any answer is a good answer.

[zaragemca]

The origins of the 6/8 pattern is in Africa(the Yorubas)a Civilization several thousands years before BC.They create a pattern so sophisticated,(syncopation on bells pattern, the middle drum,and the Mayor drum(IYA),than when the Missionaries went to Africa to study the culture and find this complicated pattern have to subdivide the 3/4 pattern into 6/8 in order to better accomodate the syncopation and coding,after that it was incorporate in the (psalms) and the general music.this African were known to the Rome Empire(several of them were brought into the Empire),also the Universities and Museum of Europe are full of compilation and Artworks of this Africans.I do teach African-Pattern in my Percussion-Instructions.

[Ivy leager]

Interesting!! Have you found a difference in the 6/8 Brasilian candomble bell patterns with the ones found in Cuba? It seems that the first group of 3s are reversed with the next 3 on the Brasilian compared to the Cuban. Are these African bell patterns still practiced in Africa? If so- which countries? If you could cite examples on African cds.

I don't know if Elvin Jones ever studied African/Latin rhythms but his cymbal work on 3 or 6 meters seem to imply that he had. It could be that he discovered these rhythms on his own- collective african subconscious- I don't know.

Thanks Ivy

[Phil Kelly]

another interesting feature ( also of african origin ) is that if you expand the duration to 12/8 , you have a meter capable of sustaining basic dividsions of 2,3,4, and 6 eighth note groups in many contrapuntal permutations..

( also 8 ..if you include the dotted eighth subdivisions ..)

[JPW]

Originally posted by zaragemca
The origins of the 6/8 pattern is in Africa(the Yorubas)a Civilization several thousads years before BC.They create a pattern so sofisticated(syncopation on bells pattern, the middle drum,and the Mayor drum(IYA),

Syncopated???? Zarag, I thought you were a "master drummer" :D
Since when is Yoruba drum (or any other West African drum band music) syncopated - it only looks that way when you write it down on paper and try and fit it into western notation.
I am more than happy to be shown the error of my ways on this since I love West African music and am always looking to understand it better (with the limited intellectual means at my disposal :confused: )
:D
Arab music, although complex and subtle, often feels closer to a 6/8 signature to my unsophisticated ears.
So, maybe from Arabia / North Africa?

[zaragemca]

JPW, I don't know if you are trying to be sarcastic,or just wanted to say something.Ivy Leager,the same Civilization which introduce that 6/8 pattern in Cuba was the one introducing it in Brazil(The Yorubas).

[Tunk]

Rhythms that are considered to be 6/8 in countries like Guinea and Senegal, such as Sole', Doudounba and several others don't really sound much like the 6/8 patterns you hear in Afro-Cuban music or latin Jazz. The Cascara pattern is probably the most predominant bell part that you hear in Afro-Cuban music....da-da-dada--da-da-d-da-da-dada-da-da and so on. In mandingi music in west africa, which are often Djembe and Saba ensembles, the accents are more in the cracks and there isn't as much of a emphasis on the 1 and 4 like there is in Cuban music. Many people refer to this music as the only unwritten art form in the world. Of course, you can go to places on the web and see that people have atleast made an attempt. However, it is especially hard to write these rhythms when they are in 6/8. People weren't counting these rhythms out back in the day, meaning thousands of years ago. Like anything, much gets changed through translation.

[zaragemca]

welcome Tunk,I like that you mention this subject to make clear something,Afro-Cuban Music( Rumba,Guaguanco,Mozambique,Son,Guaracha,etc.) have influence of the Yorubas and other African civilization but,it is not Yoruba-Music.The Guinea,Congo,and other African Civilization are not Yoruba-based so their pattern are differents(even when they have some Yorubas influences becouse the internationalization of the African Culture from one side to the other and from Africa to the rest of the world.The Yorubas have a unique Drums(Batas),bells pattern,etc., which were known only by that Civilization and notbody else in Africa.

[Ivy leager]

Yes, the Yoruba people had a big influence in the New World. It's very interesting how their influence had evolved eg. Brazilian 6/8 to Cuban 6/8. Their music were preserved well because of the association with religion, namely Santeria, Candomble, Vodun. The chants were from 200 to 300 years old and are still sung almost the same way. The bata drummers from Cuba required players to be priests because the beats of the IYA (master drum) were taken from verbal prayers. The beats had literal meaning. I've heard that bata drumming has practically dissappeared in West Africa due to conversion to Islam and Christianity. Very sad if true.

I had a Yoruba acquaintance who was into African music and I played him Michael Spiro's Bataketu album, complete Yoruban chants from Cuba and Brazil. I was interested to see if he was familiar with the chants. He said that the language was understandable. He was not familiar with bata drumming from Africa but he still understood the spiritual tributes of the prayers. He said this type of drumming may still exist in small isolated pockets in Africa. He loved the music I played for him.

I have an album of Mustafa Tetey Adde, master drummer from Ghana. Many of the rhythms were not really similar to Afro Cuban or Brazilian rhythms except for one cut which had a "son" clave on it. I wonder if this came from the Americas and came to Africa or the clave actually came from Africa from the beginning.

Fascinating subject!! Anybody know any books on this.

[JPW]

No sarcasm intended. I'm sorry if it came out that way.
I am interested as to why one would link syncopation to music of the "Kwa" people, which includes the Yoruba, Akan (Ashanti) and Ibo. From what I ahve read and listened to, West African drum music is not syncopated and is profoundly polyrhythmic. Complex polyrhythm is at the heart of Yoruba music. It seems hard to reconcile this dense, complex music with a straightforwardly linear time signature such as 6/8.
I'm looking for an explanation of this, that's all.
Here's a link (http://www.bmrc.berkeley.edu/people/rhodges/html/Ear.html) that might be of interest.
A reasonably good good label for African drum music is Buda (http://www.budamusique.com)
Smithsonian Institute (http://www.folkways.si.edu/) also have a very good album of Yoruba drum band music from Benin.
Savannah Syncopators by Paul Oliver is a good book that tries to trace the origins of the Blues, and in doing so takes in a lot of other elements of the African diaspora.

[Tunk]

I've seen and heard where many accompaniment parts from Djembe music are used in Rhumba rhythms, but slowed down big time, to the point where they sound totally different to how they are played traditionally. I guess, this is somewhat of an example of how they are applied in what we understand to be 6/8, like a cascara pattern. I don't know how to pull up links on this thing, but google S.H.A.R.E. and you will find a website that writes rhythms in 6's, but the way they are traditionally played you can barely count to 6 that fast. I would say that many of these rhythms especially are not really syncopated, however breaks for them may be. And some rhythms in 4 are. Sinte for instance has some shifting in the accents.

[Tunk]

Actually, Google, Server Hosted African Rhythm Exchange, and you will find the site. I don't think just typing S.H.A.R.E. will be as easy.

[zaragemca]

Ivy,Yorubas Civilization,have nothing to do with Candombe,or Voo-Doo(again I'm glad to clarified that),only the people which don't belong,or really know about the Culture think they are the same.Neither it is true that the Batas mean not singing,all the ceremonial patterns have they specific singing(there are CD's out there already).Of course Ghana(even when having some influence since the Yorubas Kingdom times,are not Yorubas.The 'Clave' is a Cuban's creation for the purpose of guiding the time in Guaguanco and later in the Son and Rumba.The Cuban Groups and Bands have been traveling throught out the world since 1920's including Africa,so everybody have seen, observed, and listen that Clave many times over.To my brother JPW,before I get deeper in this,.. I would like for you to clarify something for me,what is a syncopation?.( the article your mentioned is recognizing syncopation in the patterns:confused: ).

[Ivy leager]

Originally posted by zaragemca
Ivy,Yorubas Civilization,have nothing to do with Candombe,or Voo-Doo(again I'm glad to clarified that),only the people which don't belong,or really know about the Culture think they are the same.Neither it is true that the Batas mean not singing,all the ceremonial patterns have they specific singing(there are CD's out there already).

I don't mean to argue with you, zaramgemca, with all due respect, but you are simply WRONG and mistaken about the Yoruban origins of Vodun, Santeria, Candomble. I have done research on this topic and it's undeniable that the origins of these religions came from the Yoruba. The names of the gods are the same eg. Chango, Obatala.etc. Your sources of your information is suspect, I'm sorry to say. Try this link:www.religioustolerance.org/voodoo.htm or just google search the word Candomble, many sites will straighten you out on this.

[JPW]

OK, I've misunderstood what Zaragmeca originally wrote - I wouldn't disagree totally with your views on the religion - as I said it is very simplistic to view religion or music as having been transplanted from one ethic group in Africa to the Americas. I don't know what the origin of clave is (but would very much like to know), but Voudun, Candomble et al are syncretic cults that take elements from various beliefs and meld them into something new (that was kind of the point I wanted to make). The elements of Yoruba religeon are strong in many ways, but it is more complex than that.
I understand syncopation to be the shifting of the accent to the "weak" beat. Is this OK?
It gets a lot more sophisticated and subtle, but i'm rapidly getting out of my depth unfortunately.
From what I have read, the core of most African (but not necessarily New World) drumming is (basically) the tying of the cross rhythm(s) just behind the second beat (the rhythms never "clash") of the main pattern. Since the patterns are often/usually assymetric, this can all get really complicated - even though the individual parts may not be that complex.
The above was gleaned (or half understood) from the Reverend A.M Jones' book the on the drumming of the Ewe.
And yes, I realise it doesn't tally with what the guy in the link I gave earlier wrote, either.
A lot of the descriptions of African drumming seem to be quite contradictory and are often totally unfathomable to a civilian like me.
I am confused.
So go on, let me in on the secrets of the clave, Please!

[zaragemca]

Ivy,again brother,every time you send me to a link it just prove that this individuals don't know the genesis of the culturalization which took place in the Caribbean.First the people which were brought to Haiti(the practioners of Voo-Doo) by the French are not Yorubas decendants,the asimilation and taking of names took place with the immigration of the Haitians people to Cuba(since the French Revolution),when they started working in the Cuba's Sugar Cane Fields.There were all the time the immigration of people from Haiti,Jamaica,etc., to Cuba(for being the biggest Island and the source of work),and I personally knew a lot of them and their decendants in Cuba,so at that point and I would like to enfasize(in Cuba,not in Africa this people started learning and incorporating things from the Yorubas Civilization.Candombe is not the same practice not the same lenguages,and not belong in the Yorubas Civilization.Africa have many tribes and practices which have nothing to do with the Yorubas(even when at one point in history they were influence by them(and that's were the people which don't know the genesis belief that they are all the same... the..(all blacks look like stuff).And the most important reason to know about it is...THEY ARE MY ANCESTORS.I 've been researching in to the drumming pattern of this differents Civilization since I was a child growing up,so I didn't jump in the train yesterday,and the Cuban Music is composed of differents cultures which were brought to Cuba by the original people from this Countries(in Africa).JPW,the Clave(wooden clave) was created for the guiding time in the Guaguanco,Rumca,etc.,later the Hand Bell Patern was a sustitution of that Clave(in importance),and later the second Bell Pattern of the Timbales(for the mambo(Pregoneo)..

[clave]

Uh.......... 6/8 is also common in the Middle East (Arabic countries, Iran, Armenia, Georgia and the rest of the Caucasus, Turkey), the Balkans (Turkish influence there) and Central Asia (Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and so on). It's not exclusive to W. African countries, nor to places where sizeable numbers of Africans have, for one reason or another, landed....

I don't have any URLs on hand, but there are some good sites regarding rhythms from the countries mentioned, especially for arabic and turkish rhythmic patterns.

[Tenorman]

Scottish music (or more accurately Gaelic music) uses 6/8 for some of its dance rhythms.

The jig (sometimes seen in its French language or Italian language forms gigue or giga) is a folk dance type as well as the accompanying dance tune type, popular in Ireland and Scotland, and particularly associated with the former. It is a popular tune-type within the Irish dance music tradition, second only to the reel. It is transcribed in a time which is a multiple of three, 12/8 time for a 'single jig' or 'slide', 6/8 time for a 'double jig', and 9/8 time for a 'slip jig'

[zaragemca]

Tenormen ,and Clave,... we know all that stuff it was taken from there the 'Yorubas' and taken to the Westerns...The Arabics got into Africa through the expansion of their Empire and religion Islam. The Roman Empire got in to Africa through Publius Cornelius Scipio" Africanus",so they meet that culture.Dr. Zaragemca

[Tenorman]

The Romans never made it into Scotland, or not by much anyway. Anything the Romans brought to the UK was lost in the "Dark Ages" and earlier. Many of the complex rhythms in Scottish music come from work songs. If you have ever heard the beat of a treadle loom, or the music based round the "walking" of the tweeds you will know how complex things can get

[zaragemca]

But the German,Portuguese and English missionaries were there in Africa,also after the fall of Rome all the documentation they have in relation to their territory went to the new invasors the Viking and the new settlers,which took them back to Africa,!again!.There is not such thing a documentation lost,the historian have a detail stories of all the wars, posessions, who killed who and for what reason,etc.,even what everybody did..Dr. Zaragemca

[Tenorman]

Sorry Zaragemca,
I cannot accept your contention that 6/8 time could not have been developed independently anywhere else in this big wide world.

If the first evidence of it is within the Yorubas of Africa, that is not evidence that every other culture in the world that uses 6/8, got it by some roundabout means from the Yoruba.

[zaragemca]

well,now that I pressed hard you are running and shootting back to see if you can kill something on the blind.I knew you were going to use that strategy, I was waiting for it,...good try anyway!

[Tenorman]

OK you are the one making the contention. I will be interested to see your knowledge of Scottish, and other North European traditional music, and how you are going to come up with a path from the Yoruba to the Highlands of Scotland

[zaragemca]

Brother Tenorman,I don't have to make any path,.. They, the western conquerors and missionaries did their own path to Africa long time ago and taking everything they found useable for them in their traveling and setting.Dr.Zaragemca

[clave]

With all due respect, I think you should check out music from places other than W. Africa and Cuba -- the kinds of 6/8s I mentioned have little or nothing to do with W. African influence in any way, shape or form.

Insisting on this is a bit like saying that various styles of music from Mali and Japan have the same source, since both use pentatonic scales. (And then there are Turkish modes --many of them use 49 tones to one of our octaves -- that didn't come from Africa!)

But it's silly to keep on splitting hairs about this -- people tend to come up with ideas, and that includes time signatures, rhythmic patterns, and so on. There's no reason to exclude people from one's scheme of things because someone else came up with something similar, is there???

[ziggy]

If any of you folks really new what rhythm w/ complex syncopations was all about, you wouldn't be on this web page tossing out your "knowledge" trying to get some respect.

you ones with your explaining the exact placement of each accennt on a synchopation, and your GD mathematical formulas. you start thinkin about music like that, and you'll start sounding like a computer

Ya'll know what I mean... it has nothing to do with your intellectual capacity or Incredibly precise rhythm.

If you really knew your shit, you'd feel it, feel the beat, and feel where to place the accents. Some of you carbon copies that stream from academia are destroying the true sense of jazz. Now me being a white kid, a college dropout, I SUPPOSE that I have no CREDENTIALs here, but damned if I'm not gonna put my 2 cents in.

I know some of ya'll gotta feel me out there....

[Saundra Hummer]

Which came first, the egg or the chicken? This seems to be where this argument and discussion is coming from. Of course as we are being taught by archaeology, we all stem from African roots, and therefore the music, but this is in prehistoric times, ancient times prehistory times, before any known civilization. or known tribe for that matter.

Mans brains are of course all wired the same way, regardless of the continent, we all have had our primative ways of communicating, of celebrating, of any other number of things that are part of everyday life.

Which came first, music, or sending a message across a valley of to the top of a hill?

Who is to say where the beat you talk of came from, it is for certain, hearing what you are having to say here that in some societies and tribes, these beats, or this particular beat has its roots buried deeply, perhaps too deeply to ever know, face it, we will never know it's exact root, it's exact time of being part of any tribe or society. Just not possible.

Maybe one society has found it to be the way they prefer to play their drums or their other instruments, and it may be more prevelant with them, but to say it is theirs and theirs alone, that that is where it had to originate is to me reaching.

[JPW]

Has anyone else here listenend to "Yoruba Drums from Benin West Africa" on Smithsonian (CD SF 40440)?
I'm listening to it know, and I dare any non-yoruba to simply "feel" the beat (you'd have to start by deciding *which* beat it is you want to follow). Anyway, it's superb music - if you can get head around it.
The intellectual part is important in that it aids in understanding what is going on and appreciating the music. Dense, complex, *different* music requires more effort from the listener. This isn't being pretentious or soulless, it's about trying to get closer to the music.
I don't have the talent (sadly) to be a master percussionist like Zarag, but I love all kinds of percussion music and want to understand it better.
A very interesting album that I think Zarag might enjoy is Sacred Songs from Nubia and Kordofan on the Institute du Monde Arabe label (get it here (http://www.harmoniamundi.com/HMboutique/Product.asp?HMID=11831) ) which blurs African and Arab approaches to percussion to some extent - at least that's what I think.

[clave]

I didn't intend to ruffle feathers, merely to point out that it's a *big* world out there, and that the whole issue is far more complex than it might seem....

For the record, I am a percussionist, trained primarily in Arabic and Turkish rhythms, though I do (try to) play others, and don't consider myself a master of anything -- there's far too much to learn and too little time in which to learn it!

As far as recordings and sites that feature examples of the kinds of music I mentioned, there are a lot of good ones, easily found via Google. A couple of recommendations: Afropop Worldwide (www.afropop.org) and Turath (Arabic for "heritage") at www.turath.org (I have no association with these sites, but I've found them to be both thought-provoking and helpful -- *lots* of info., links, reviews, artist profiles, sound files and more.)

BTW, thanks to Tenorman for the mention of rhythms (and more) from Scotland, Ireland and other parts of the British Isles. Can you recommend any recordings?

[Ivy leager]

Another example of fusion of 6/8 or threes can be found on
Strunz and Farah's "Frontera". Guitar virtuosos, Argentine flamenco guitarist- Jorge Strunz and Ardeshir Farah from Iran, really mix it up on this album.

Check out the 6/8 Persian style on the cut "Reng" with Majid Ghorbani on dombak and darbukah.

Most of the other 6/8 grooves are South American on other cuts where the percussion are handled by Cuban Luis Conte, Walfredo Reyes, and Peruvian Alex Acuna. A very beautiful album even w/o the percussion.

[JPW]

Originally posted by clave

For the record, I am a percussionist, trained primarily in Arabic and Turkish rhythms, though I do (try to) play others, and don't consider myself a master of anything -- there's far too much to learn and too little time in which to learn it!
Way cool! I love Arabic and Turkish music. Any suggestions for Really Good albums? I guess you know www.Kalan.com? I got some Kardes Turkuler albums off of there - A bit "pop" perhaps but very good.

[zaragemca]

To the brother Ive Leager,Luis Conte and Walfredo have done excellent work in 6/8, but the first one creating the Afro-Jazz style in the U.S. was Mongo Santamaria(Afro-Blue),etc....JPW,..I also play and teach Darbukas,Rigs, Doumbeck,and Tabla,the problem with those types of instruments is that the same instrument could have different name in different countries(in relation to what you said about Benin's music),yes, the Yorubas reached to the west sharing some of the trades with 'Dahomey's kimdom"(this is the name of what is Republic of Benin now),also sharing the craftmanship of the work in metals which is were the best sculptures in Brass and Wood from the Yorubas commissioned for Benin).

[clave]

Hi JPW,

Glad to hear of another Arabic/Turkish music fan. I don't know that I can be of much help, since I live in the US, and am not at all conversant with the Japanese record market, as far as music from the Middle East, anyway. There's a really nifty site on Arabic music maintained by two Japanese women (one's an oudist, maybe they both are) -- you might want to check out the links section of Turath (www.turath.org), which is a terrific resource. (I think that's how I found their site.)

They would no doubt be better qualified than me in terms of recommendations, though I'd be happy to send you a short list of my faves. (Pretty idiodsyncratic picks, really.)

Do you like pop, folkloric, classical or all of the above?

[clave]

Regarding Mongo, I think Chano Pozo was one of the 1st people to bring Afro-Cuban rhythms to US jazz, back in the 40s. (With Dizzy Gillespie, et. al.) Also Chico O'Farrill, Arsenio Rodriguez and others.

Some great sources:

John Storm Roberts, The Latin Tinge (also his Latin Jazz -- The First of the Fusions) and Cuban Fire, by a terrific French writer named Isabelle Leymarie. (worth it for the pics alone, though the text is great, too.) All of these books are in print and available in paperback editions. You can get all of these books easily enough through standard online sources (i.e., Amazon, Barnes & Noble) as well as specialty sites like Descarga (www.descarga.com).

Hope is helpful!

[zaragemca]

Thanks for the link Clave ,yes I have cultivated Arabic Percussion ( two of my students also play Tabla),and I have conducted performing at buddhist Temple with Darbukas,Tabla and Djembe,and have played with Indians percussionists at the Houston International Festival..In relation to Chano Pozo, he created the flame of the Afro-Cuban Percussion in to Jazz in the U.S.,but Mongo Santamaria introduced the Yorubas-Patterns in to Jazz and Blue,which is called now Afro-Jazz,(not Latin-Jazz).Arsenio Rodriguez brought Chano Pozo to play in his Band,and Mario Bauza introduced Chano to Dizzy G. for those historic recording,also Mario Bauza was the central figure since Chano Pozo didn't speak English.

[snoutinator]

Originally posted by Saundra Hummer
Which came first, the egg or the chicken? This seems to be where this argument and discussion is coming from.

this is the best post on the subject so far. several cultures make use of 6/8 rhythms. just because some new world music operates in 6/8 doesn't mean it came exclusively from africa. or from yoruba ancestry, either. you have to listen to tribal drumming from ghana to really understand the complexity of so-called time signatures in african music. the "implied pulse" can usually be interpreted in many ways. ewe drumming in particular has this feature.

the best resource i've found on african drumming is john miller chernoff's African Rhythm, African Sensibility (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226103455/qid=1077646498//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-6202636-0828008?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), which is as much a musical study as a cultural reference.

it's hard to recommend this book enough if you're looking to learn more about the subject.

and anyone who doubts the yoruba (http://www.yoruba.org/) origins of santeria needs to look at a list of deities in both africa and cuba. that's the simplest and most obvious way to correlate.

it's also interesting to note, while on this subject, that newly catholicized people of african descent conflated christian saints with these deities, which makes for some very interesting analogies between the religions.

[clave]

There's a nice 3-disc set of Chano Pozo's recordings (see http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/18628.60?7Psv3IAA;;57) -- lots of Afro-Cuban rhythms there, recorded with lots of folks, not just Dizzy's band.

As for the term "Latin jazz" it's indicative of something that's both broader and deeper than Yoruba influence alone (things that started in the mid-1800s, in fact) -- best thing is to read the books and see for yourself. John Storm Roberts books are the best for this; Cuban Fire is more focused on the mid-late 20th century and the development of Latin jazz. (Like it or not, the term's ehre to stay.)

Hope that's helpful.

[clave]

the best resource i've found on african drumming is john miller chernoff's African Rhythm, African Sensibility, which is as much a musical study as a cultural reference.

Yes indeed, great book!!!

[zaragemca]

Thanks for posting Snoutinator,I agree with you in what you said in relation to the Ghana music,but that's becouse some of Yorubas went to the west,(to what was called Dahomey's Kingdom at that time),which is where Ghana and Benin stand today,and shared some of the trades with them,having some influence in the music and craftmanship...To response to clave,just by observing the names of the songs in the link you are providing in relation of Chano Pozo music at that time,and knowing the background of Arsenio Rodriguez,(even when you might not understanded),I have a confirmation that it was Mongo Santamaria who introduced the Yorubas-Patterns in to Jazz and Blue...And there is not book in the world which is going to convey to me better than my ANCESTORS, those African Drumming Patterns,which I did learn when I was growing up in Cuba 37 years ago.The person which have the first influence of Cuban music into what would be jazz was Louis Moreau Gottschalk (1829-1869),a great musician from Louisiana which went to Cuba and incorporated some Cubans tunes and Cuba's musicians in to his orchestra,this later would influence what would be called Ragtime(even Jolly Roll Morton did talk about that influence).I already did an article about it.Dr.Zaragemca

[clave]

I give up.

cf. Cuba, what about the Bantu influence there???? (Music from palo monte and more.) And there are more people from parts of Africa other than Nigeria in Cuba, who brought -- and have maintained -- their own musical traditions, which have been mixed with Yoruba stuff. Cubans clearly consider these things as distinct from on another -- watch Calle 54 (on DVD) for comments by Chucho Valdes and others on this very subject.

the books I suggested (and those which have been suggested by others) are SO good, and go a long way toward filling in tons of blanks in the picture.

but I suspect you'll never let up, and I'm through with this subject.

[Ivy leager]

Hey Clave. Stick around -your presence is appreciated! Thanks for the links and info. Everyone has their version of the "truth", afterall how many religions are there each with their own version of the truth.

A little story: I once sat in on a class African music at UC Berkeley taught by Anlo-Ewe master drummer C.K. Ladzekpo. He was demonstrating a Anlo-Ewe rhythm which had a very complex third part which he could not play successfully. He then pointed to someone in class to come down and demonstrate the part. A shy tiny young white woman with blonde poneytails came down. She then proceeded to tap out the rhythm perfectly. I smiled.

Check out C.K Ladzekpo site. Truly educational.

http://www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/~ladzekpo/Foundation.html

[zaragemca]

Sister Clave, we do recognize you contribution to this posting and we want you to continue been around with us.Yes I know that the Bantu Civilization is part of an important foundation in Africa and the heritage in Cuba,that's exactly what I'm again telling that Mongo Santamaria is the initiator of the Yurubas-Patterns in to Jazz and Blues,becouse the work of Chano Pozo is related to the Bantu's which is a different Culture,Civilization,and Religion,that's why when somebody is talking about Afro-Cuban subjects thing get confusing.In this case I'm refering to an specific Civilization,not to the general Afro-Cuban spectrum.(we also have the Arara-Ewe Civilization in Cuba),but I was not refering to that Civilization neither in my post....Thanks to every one...To Yvy Leaguer,the mayority of my students in the Afro-Cuban instruction are Caucasians, and they could give a sorprise to any percussionist which might think they don't know how to play those patterns.Dr.Zaragemca

[clave]

Uh, make that "sister clave," OK?!

[zaragemca]

Thanks Clave,I also have a lot of females as my students,right out one is learning Congas.

[clave]

Hey, "clave" will do just fine!

And yes, there *are* a lot of women percussionists these days.

(Also want to acknowledge the mention of abakwa -- yes.)

[zaragemca]

Well as requested by and specially to Clave and incorporated as subject we have the Carabalies Civilization, which are located in the Southwestern part of Nigeria,which response to the name of Efifk,Ibos,Ibibios,etc., which are heritage of the Abakuas in Cuba,and forming part of the Afro-Cuban Culture.

[clave]

The glossary from Rebeca Mauleón's TheSalsa Guidebook for Piano & Ensemble is available at Descarga.com -- glossary (http://http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/glossary?;;6) .

It's a FANTASTIC resource, and includes a lot of alternate spelling, which are really helpful. (To me, at least.) So many things that have been alluded to in this discussion are spelled out clearly, by one who really knows.... (Unlike me!)

[Ivy leager]

Mr. Zaragemca, if you could cite examples of rhythms that Mongo played in a 6/8 context which was of true Yoruba origin. Might one be- the shekere rhythms on the original "Afro Blue", perhaps the main bell pattern.

Thanks Ivy

[zaragemca]

Yvy leager,I did sometime ago the resolution with my students that my consultation over the internet would not involved teaching percusion structures(it is unfair to them),also becouse I could not supervise it.The post so far was related to a historic subject and later, the difference among some of the African Civilizations(for the purpose of clearing the confusion in to the one I was talking about)....But there are resources out there for the purpose of getting to know that music.Dr. Zaragemca

[Ivy leager]

I'm not asking for lessons, it is just to clarify your point. It's kinda strrange conversing with you. You seem to be the authority on the subject and everybody else is wrong. I can't even spell my name correctly. Ivy OK~! end of subject.

[snoutinator]

Originally posted by Ivy leager
It's kinda strrange conversing with you. You seem to be the authority on the subject and everybody else is wrong.

which is ironic given who started the thread with a question.

[zaragemca]

Well becouse there are a lot of historic fact,misconceptions,etc.,which need to come out of the closet some day,so every day somebody(including me learn new things about any specific subject),which is great!..Dr. Zaragemca

[clave]

I think that the question about the bell pattern in Afro-Blue is a good one, and would really like to see an answer. (i.e., how it's phrased/played.)

[zaragemca]

Yes that's the key element in the Grooving which hold the syncopated parameters in which the akonkolo an Itotele Drums are played and a guiding point for the solos of the Iya Bata,(singing drum).By the way I just did a presentation yesterday(friday), at the Unv.Of Houston about drumming(From Africa to Cuba) for the Black History Month.

[clave]

But my question concerns HOW the rhythm is played.... not the derivation (from santeria, which drum, etc.).

It's confusing to talk with you, really -- I know I'm good at information overload (sending too much), but you've been asked a direct question which should be easy enough to answer without using musical notation.

[zaragemca]

Clave it is not easy to talk about it with out musical notation,even by showing the patterns to my students in Real Time and Cinemascope(full color),there is strugle to assimilated and to hold it at the biginning.

[clave]

The basic clave patterns are not confusing, nor are they all that difficult to notate by using syllables. (I do agree that things get confusing when all the other instruments are added.)

I do agree that live is best, but surely you could recommend some recordings??

[zaragemca]

Please Clave,the Yorubas-Patterns have not clave patterns(only Bell 's paterns),and yes they are(bells patterns),which are confusing for a lot of people which get in touch with it for the first time.The, 'Afro-Cuba' group, have been dedicated to the cultivation of that genre for long time,they have some CD's out there.

[clave]

I was talking about CUBANS, not Nigerians! (Also
son clave and rumba clave, some of the foundational rhythms of Cuban popular music....).

[zaragemca]

well you did ask me a question in relation to the bell's pattern for the(Afro-Blue),and I channelized my answer in the subject.The clave for the Son and Rumba have been incorporated from the Guaguanco.Might be played 3/2 for the Son,and 2/3 for the Rumba.

[clave]

OK......

[zaragemca]

Well with the information of the link,(how it worked),the Yorubas influence the sophisticated percussion pattern,(6/8), into the Araras,(Guinean Empire),Hannibal Barca,(Greece),was impressed by the Araras which used drumming to fight,( for Psychological reasons )and got the use of drumming from them,and then incorporated by the Roman,(which took over Greece),in the North/African Empire,and took it to the west,then the westerns missionaries went to Africa in order to understand this pattern better and had to do this configration,(6/8 time signature),for better codification,mesurament and understanding of these complex percussion patterns.Gerry Zaragemca.