Good Bye

[Adam Lozo]

edit

[Noj]

Adam Lozo, why not debate the views you disagree with point by point? Don't just get mad and leave. Arguing is what the political forums are for.

Over at JC there are many pro-Bush posters who will take on any anti-Bush poster...the arguing over there is endless.

One can disagree with the Bush regime, maintain support for the troops, and still be a patriot in my opinion. The right to dissent is a cornerstone of freedom of speech, and plays a huge role in our system of checks and balances.

[John L]

Oh, I see. We are at war and our troops are dying. Therefore, we are obliged to put up or shut up. Never mind that the war has to do with the invasion by the US of a sovereign country under false pretenses. We have to hand over all of our civil liberties now. No free thinking allowed.

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by Noj
Adam Lozo, why not debate the views you disagree with point by point? Don't just get mad and leave. Arguing is what the political forums are for.

Over at JC there are many pro-Bush posters who will take on any anti-Bush poster...the arguing over there is endless.

One can disagree with the Bush regime, maintain support for the troops, and still be a patriot in my opinion. The right to dissent is a cornerstone of freedom of speech, and plays a huge role in our system of checks and balances.

Here we are again, agreeing that we have the right to have different viewpoints, different beliefs, and different ways of expressing our points of view!

I am all for the troops in Iraq! I wish the powers that be were as much behind them as we the public are.

We are all happy about Saddams demise, and of those around him, as he was a blight, no doubt, but why take the measures that were taken in such an underhanded manner, and cause the world to not trust another word our politicians utter?


We don't need the other countries in the world??? Sorry, but we actually do, we are not an island, and we need coalitiotins in this day and age.

I have posted about our Oregon National Guard not being given the bare necessities, things needed for everyday living, so much so that our state government had to send them our states credit cards to purchase even medical supplies while they are in training in Texas.

Then we had another soldier killed from our sparsley populated state last week. His mother is terribly upset, and even angry as she said he was a mechanic sent out on a combat military patrol in an unarmored Humvee. She was also upset that she was having to send him everyday necessities, just like the troops in Texas. She said his existence had been miserable in Iraq, because they weren't being provided with the things they considered essential, not even enough water.

I don't believe that we have to think that just because it is GW Bush who is President, that we shouldn't complain about these conditions, we have every right to, and to my way of thinking, we should. It is more of an unpatriotic situation not to care, to just go about our daily lives, enjoying all of the pleasures afforded us by this country, and there are many. It is caring people who ensure our prospering, and surviving in this crazy world.

It is like someone wanting to take their ball and go home, leaving others with no way to play the game, but hey, there is one to be had, and the game will go on, I think it is just a pity to have Adam L leave, maybe he has something to contribute that will help the situation, or at least make us feel better in what we all consider a sad state of affairs. Our patriotism isn't the issue here, we all are patriots, we just feel that we are trying to help a situation that is out of control.

[marvin g]

I really miss your dumb blond jokes! :)

[bubber]

Adam Lozo - you have to understand that you're not anti American just because you think George Bush is bad for the US (and the rest of the world), just like you're not an anti Semite because you criticize the activities of the present Israeli regime.

[kenny weir]

I'm with the other posters here who bristle at being perceived as anti-American if they question what's going on. No matter where you live, it doesn't. In fact, particularly if you are American, it makes you even more true to your country's spirit.

The efforts - both covert and overt - of the current administration and those who do its business to draw utterly non-flexible parallels between American patriotism and loyalty (on the one hand) and support for their sleazy games (on the other) is to me quite plainly one of the most ANTI-American phenomena I have observed in 30 years of watching (and often enjoying) American politics and culture.

Adam Lonzo, Bush bashing and anti-Americanism are NOT the same thing. In fact, I can't recall there ever being ANY anti-American sentiment on AAJ.

Xricci - Anti-American sentiments and Bush bashing do not belong on a jazz web site. I'd much rather read DEEP's posts than be subjected to what I consider to be direct hostile acts against the US. Remember, we're at War and our troops are dying to support the cause. Please don't let the Bush bashing and anti-american points of view ruin what is otherwise an excellent web site.

Hostile acts against the US? What the hell are you talking about? I would've thought robust debate was even more important than ever.

[GA Russell]

I usually skip over the political threads, because their titles indicate that they are always about Bush-bashing.

I agree with Adam. There are plenty of places to go to on the web if I wanted to hear from Democrats. I don't see why a good jazz site should be one of them.

[kenny weir]

Originally posted by GA Russell
There are plenty of places to go to on the web if I wanted to hear from Democrats.

That's simply pathetic. What a way to think about the world - or even your own country. In case you haven't noticed, there are plenty of people on this board who aren't American, and thus can't be pigeonholed so conveniently. And I'd wager that overwhelmingly those participate in any political discussions are not Democrats, just concerned citizens. This sort of black-and-white view of things is warped.

[Andy D]

For me there is a sense of irony in the origional post that started this thread, at least we are free to say what we like ( well almost:wink2: ), and this is a right the US, UK and indeed Western Governments have denied so many people, countries and communities for many many years.

The consequence of this has been many of the conflicts that have occurred and continue to happen all over the world. Sometimes it is hard to look at yourself, to question your racist and ill-informed views or question what your government does in your name. It is much easier to focus on the last kick of the Superbowl and Johnny Wilkinson winning the world cup.

I am grateful for the opportunity to express the views and ideas that I have, and Mike and co should be congradulated for this.

Regards

Andy D

[Saundra Hummer]

Sure Andy,

This is what freedom and democracy is all about.

I may not like what you have to say, but you are free to express your views at any time.

I'm not for bashing, but constructive criticism is something we all should welcome, if not engage in ourselves. We may not like what we will hear, or are hearing, but hey, this is freedom in action, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, speech. This is what democracy is all about. Let it "Ring!"

How fortunate that we have these rights, and an international podium here with this site. Before, unless we wrote to a foreign newspaper, and they then decided to print the letter, how many people would hear how any of us in another country, or even in parts of our own countries, think, and how we feel. Now they can hear what we believe, what we expect, what our dreams are, or at least a few of them can, so at least now they know we aren't all following our politicians blindly along, but that we have independent thought processes, that we don't all agree with every decision our government implements.

Differing views are a healthy thing in my way of thinking. I sure don't expect everyone to agree with everything that I have to say, that would be spookey don't you think?

[joefont]

Originally posted by Saundra Hummer
Differing views are a healthy thing in my way of thinking.

That's all well and fine, but what I think Adam has had enough of is the bashing comments by some; statements that are so completely devoid of any intellectual content whatsoever, undeserving of any response, such as the following from past posts:

This is the most ignorant president we have ever had.

The Terminator met Bush today in California. The 2 of them together, combined I.Q.? Maybe 92?

He is dumb.

His wearing military dress, as Commander in Chief is like a costume party.

It is also clearer every day that no BBA exist. (BBA=Brains in the Bush Administration)

the lying #%&@'s in the White House!

Bush IS a filthy cretin.

I still think he's a stupid clown.

[GA Russell]

Originally posted by kenny weir
That's simply pathetic.

See what I mean? Why should this chip on the shoulder attitude be found here? This is a great jazz website!

[Saundra Hummer]

Sure it is a great site, and the political section is separated from the jazz forum, if we're not interested in the political goings on around the world, we needn't read or contribute to the political site threads. If we are interested we can look in, and if we feel like it, add our two cents.

When it comes to Bush, he himself has been known to mock or call other people names. Human nature after all. Not enlightened, but it happens.

[kenny weir]

Originally posted by GA Russell
See what I mean? Why should this chip on the shoulder attitude be found here? This is a great jazz website!

No chip on the shoulder GA - just finding it humourous/pathetic that someone can paint so many people with such an inaccuarate put down. Like others, I reject suggestions that this is or will become anything less than the great site it is because we have the freedom to choose what and how we discuss.

Adam, IMHO, has actually done the right thing here (although possibly not for the right reasons) - he has split rather than try to dictate terms for other board members.

This is the most ignorant president we have ever had. The Terminator met Bush today in California. The 2 of them together, combined I.Q.? Maybe 92?

He is dumb.

His wearing military dress, as Commander in Chief is like a costume party.

It is also clearer every day that no BBA exist. (BBA=Brains in the Bush Administration)

the lying #%&@'s in the White House!

Bush IS a filthy cretin.

I still think he's a stupid clown.


Oh come now - this is all just grist for the mill, surely, in the world's greatest democracy? Wouldn't the jibes/slander/profanities be flying the other way with equal abandon if a Dem was presiding over these sorts of moves?

As an outsider, I am sometimes bemused by the American politcal system - and its constituents. But I have no doubt that it is the Right that has the greater ability and ruthlessness when it comes to playing hard ball. In all sorts of different ways.

[Chris A]

Originally posted by joefont
That's all well and fine, but what I think Adam has had enough of is the bashing comments by some; statements that are so completely devoid of any intellectual content whatsoever, undeserving of any response, such as the following from past posts:

This is the most ignorant president we have ever had.

The Terminator met Bush today in California. The 2 of them together, combined I.Q.? Maybe 92?

He is dumb.

His wearing military dress, as Commander in Chief is like a costume party.

It is also clearer every day that no BBA exist. (BBA=Brains in the Bush Administration)

the lying #%&@'s in the White House!

Bush IS a filthy cretin.

I still think he's a stupid clown.


Are you challenging the veracity of the above? :eek2:

If you don't like to read critique of the appointed Bush regime, may I suggest that you find some GOP-oriented anti-Clinton site to embrace. I mean, it [i]is[/] ok to go after Clinton, even after all these years, isn't it?

There was a time when jazz performers--in the minds of the jazz press, at least--were people who somehow went through life without having a personal one of their own. They were a little bit like the Brady Bunch, they didn't even go to the bathroom. Thirty years ago, when I "revealed" that Bessie Smith had a sex life, some of these old critics reached for the smelling salt. Well, now we have posters who don't think jazz followers sgould express political opinions! What utter nonsense that is, and please notice that the ones who complain are the ones whose party of choice is currently unraveling. No coincidence here, I submit.

[Saundra Hummer]

I just feel what GW and his administration are doing to the American people is worse than the name calling, he is costing us perception wise, financially, and people are being injured and are dying for what we hope isn't a lost cause like Vietnam.

The Iraqui regime needed to be toppled, but different methods should have been used, or at least to my way of thinking other methods and better planning were something that should have been the case.

I haven't called him names, but I believe he is a travisty. Might be fun to watch a game with, have a beer with on a Saturday night, but would I want him to plan my portfolio, or cover my back in battle, not me, not to my way of thinking.

[vibes]

I find that at all three jazz boards that I frequent (this one, Organissimo and JC), the majority of posters (or maybe it's just the most vocal ones) are decidedly liberal. In all honesty, I suspect that you might find the same thing at any music board devoted to music, be it jazz or something else (except maybe country, but I don't know).

If you're going to participate in internet discussion boards, you have to have thick skin. It's inevitable that people are going to say things that you disagree with. In real life, you can't run and hide every time someone says something with which you disagree, so why do it here? Yes, you can go elsewhere on the internet if you don't like what you find here, but why let political discussions become so personal? We can disagree in politicals and still have much to discuss in other subjects, such as JAZZ.

I'm a conservative. I feel that I'm in the minority in these boards, but I don't let it bother me. I read the majority of the political posts. I find it interesting to see what other people think and feel. And just because we feel differently doesn't mean we can't be friends. I personally hope that Adam will come back.

[joefont]

Originally posted by vibes
I'm a conservative. I feel that I'm in the minority in these boards, but I don't let it bother me. I read the majority of the political posts. I find it interesting to see what other people think and feel. And just because we feel differently doesn't mean we can't be friends. I personally hope that Adam will come back.

I suspect that Adam's become frustrated with the his perceived tone of some of the threads. Life's too short to be frustrated with something you can't do anything about. I rarely respond to these posts anymore. It's useless. Everyone has a different opinion and no one is going to change anyone else's mind about anything. Every bit of information or opinion posted here isn't anything I haven't already acquired from some other source. I now lurk here strictly for the entertainment value. :)

[Andy D]

The art of political debate is just that to have the debate in a way that people are not offended, and by and large this forum does that. I have no shame in saying that I have what might be called 'left-wing' views, but I am also interested in other people's views and opinions and I enjoy political debate.

The politics section allows the possibility that I can engage in debate, and find out what some of the Americans think. It has been refreshing to note that many of the Americans on this board have views that are not to different to me on a range of issues.

Regards

Andy D.

[omar zamora]

Man, xricci splits the OT board to political and non-political and people still can't deal with it. That's just ridiculous. If this kinda thing really injures your sensibilities, then maybe this is too much for you - but don't blame other people for your shortcomings.

I avoid political discussion on jazz boards because life's too short and I don't have time, energy or desire to continue in pointless back-and-forths. For whatever reasons I don't participate, I accept that as my own choice - I don't blame anybody else (in my case I could accuse people of being pro-imperialist, anti-working class, etc instead anti-American, but the point is the same).

If it's too difficult not to click on the political area of a mostly music-related board, that's your problem.

[Saundra Hummer]

I agree, to click, or not to click!

You know I have never been a total political junkie, but lately, or I guess I should say over the past 20 years I have had politics totally do damage to my life, and well being.

Not a socialist like "Andy and others, but I truly believe that there need to be social programs in place in this the most powerful country on earth. We need to share our largesse with others, and with people in our own country.

I'm not bashing or comng down on our country, just certain attitudes, and aspects that government officials have, as I don't like how they handle certain situations. A sorry state of affairs at times. This is a great country to live in, it is just that we need to work to keep it this way. We can't afford to shut our eyes to what is troubling about it, we want to be able to keep loving it, not feel that we have been abandonded by government and uncaring, selfseeking politicians, regardless of which party they belong to.

I have had political situations that have cost us thousands and thousands of dollars, leaving us with little. The dishonesty of Government employees is amazing. I would have never believed it to be possible if we hadn't experienced it ourselves. The threats from their attorney's and other employees were amazing, truly they were. Part of what I am complaining about was all said, and done by their attorney who was also a minister. Not a religious utterance if you ask me. Not working for the people, but somesort of misguided agenda. They say everyone has their own truths, but not when it comes to the situation we were in, there was nothing factual about the way they represented everything.

Sorry if people can't handle the discussions here on this forum, but as stated, you're just a click away from not having to ever see or hear it.


We who have had to live with the backhanded dealings that government dishes out, have a right to complain, and having a forum like this one is great for us.

This is the first time I have had a chance to air my gripes and fears, along with what is good, and what I hope for. Surprised that I am doing it, as I have never been a big letter writer. I always thought that they aren't read by anyone that mattered, or by anyone who would try to remedy my concerns, and they probably won't be here, but I do get a lot of positive feed back from a lot of you, and a few scoldings, which I am prepared for too.

Remember, you can always click us off, or not click onto this type of thread at all.

[bubber]

Here we all come forward with some rather sane and enlightening arguments re political threads at AAJ - I just wonder if thread starter Adam reads them, or if his withdrawal from the board means he neither writes nor reads.

One thing is certain, though, there's a similar percentage of anti-Bushers on the other jazz boards too. And if we are to believe the latest news from the US, a majority of the population over there want John Kerry to replace George W.

Yeah, I know, the election might give another result, but......

And as I said in a previous thread: Anti Bush does not equal anti American.

[Andy D]

Bubber.

You make an interesting point, in that anti-Bush does not mean anti-American. The policies of various US Presidents are questionable as indeed my own Governments are. For me the end of the Conservatives has now ushered in a government that is increasingly becoming unaccountable to the people, and making emenies all over the world. The so called 'New Labour' revolutions has not happened.

The vast percentage of the political threads are full of respective and intelligent views, and we can have our differences as still enjoy the debate.

Regards

Andy D.

[bubber]

Right, Andy.

Whatever we think of Bush and Blair, I guess we can agree on Charlie Parker.

That's what is important, and I think Adam just forgot that.

[Andy D]

Bubber.

Well some may not agree on Parker:) but at least we can have an interesting discussion.

Regards

Andy D.

[xricci]

Omar,

I PM'd Adam touching on many of the same points... but in a nicer way. :wink2:

Adam has one of the best avatars. He needs to come back.

[Second Front]

Originally posted by Adam Lozo

>>I'm putting everyone on notice that I will respond directly and pointedly to any political comments inside or outside the politics section that I feel goes over the edge. <<

Bully for you. Welcome to the concept of free speech!

>>It would be nice to see some of you say something good about what the US is doing - including the effect that the Iraq war has had on other countries in the area. I see no mention of Libya nor do I see anyone speaking about Iran's most recent political uprising - funny how these two events to me seem directly related to our Iraq conflict.<<

Maybe we could focus on that more if we weren't so upset about the needless hundreds of American deaths and thousands of maimed, dismembered, and wounded who went to war on the basis of politically manipulated intelligence.

>>FYI - my brother is stationed in Bagdad. He's a part of the team helping to pull together a new constitution for the country. He sees a population that for the most part is elated with what the US has done. He's in harms way but if you were to talk to him you would find that that is the least of his concerns. He like most all of the troops want to do a good job and leave Iraq in a better place. <<

I have a relative serving in Iraq as well. He's not particularly happy about it, but he's doing it and doing it as well as he can. We made a mess and we have to clean it up. Nobody doubts that.

>>It's only you armchair liberals (I'm no longer going to hold back) who are looking for a way to diminish what this administration is doing. We finally have a man in the office who is addressing the current world order and having a vision of a better future for all of us. <<

Oooooo! And you have to be kidding me. Have you looked at the enormous deficits this administration is running up? The way it has completely exhausted U.S. credibility and goodwill in such a short time? This leader has no CONCEPT of a future except for that of his wealthy backers, and yes, they'll be doing fine, while the rest of us work for lower wages, more expensive health care, higher taxes (yes, that will happen), and a lower standard of living.

>>I've had enough of the old world politics (great term by the way). The French and Germans suck for selling weapons to Iraq. Syria, Iran, N.Korea, Saudi Arabia and Russia should take care of their own people and stop the proliferation of hatred around the globe. Why is that none of you armchair liberals ever care to comment about these governments?<<

Maybe because they're NOT OUR GOVERNMENT? None of those countries "represent" me. Sure, I care about what they do, but ultimately my own government is much more my and your responsibility.

>>And lastly, I like Bill Clinton. Not because of what he did for our economy - after all, his only claim is keeping Greenspan in power. He didn't effect the dotcom rise (and rising economy and jobs) nor did he cause the collapse although one could put up a weak argument that his doing nothing allowed the inequalities to fester.

I view the stock market rise during the 90's to be the largest waste of weath that has ever occured on this planet. Why? Because through the stock market, bad analysts, bad investment companies, the only wealth CREATED was on paper. And who was the biggest benefactor in the movement of wealth (none was created, plenty shifted) was from the poor to the rich. Hmm, maybe you armchair liberals should open an economics book....better yet, put a suit on first so that you can read it from the right perspective. <<

Bill Clinton not only balanced the budget, he generated a surplus. A surplus that his successor has pissed away in record time. He's not only pissed it away, he's created a huge NEW problem.

I care about my country a great deal, and our current leader is a DISASTER for it and its future. So spare me your sanctimonious jive.

[Second Front]

Ask yourself this (you being any average voter):

Is your future better off now than it was four years ago?

[Saundra Hummer]

Whether you are a conservative, or a liberal, it doesn't take a suit or a Harvard degree to know that things are going awry!

We aren't bashing you, or yours with our strong beliefs that things need to be done differently.

We are all capable of reading the news, hearing the news, or watching any number of news programs on television, the ones on ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, and PBS, along with special reports done by well respected journalists, and often times contributers from universities, and think tanks. We aren't the only people who are concerned about the path this administration is taking, nor were we happy with everything any of the preceeding administrations have implemented.

Sometimes we out here, out of the "Beltway" think that they have lost it when it comes to doing what is best for our country, and for other countries around the world. Too many special interests, too many programs to help their "Good Ole Boy Network."

Politicians can stand up and say so much, and we have to just listen and listen, as when we try to contribute our "Two Cents" they will agree wholeheartadly, then this is the last we ever hear of it. They just tell us what we want to hear. Politics at work.

I am glad that the people of Iraq have a chance to better themselves. however I feel that better planning should have been the order of the day. Logistics are important in any situation, and there as elsewhere, it seems to a lot of us, consertative, and liberal alike, as you can see in the news, that their visions for Iraq were sophmoric, poorly planned out, and because of this our young men and women, along with the Iraqi's and other nations troops are suffering terribly.

Should we be happy about the fact that there isn't sufficient water, and other daily necessites, available to these young people in the armed forces, not enough armored vehicles, not enough body armor? The fact that the press isn't allowed to show the injured coming home, or the body bags coming home?

I'm sorry, things aren't being done as they should be, here in this country, or around the world. I am not the only one to think this way, the "Suits" in Washington, and around the country, people in both major parties are also complaining about these situations.

Most people are for our troops and we are for our country, and we are for better conditions around the world.

The countries you mentioned aren't the only ones guilty of selling arms to rogue nations, we have always done the same. We won't even sign onto banning land mines like other countries are doing. Until we know how to clear every last one out, in a short period of time, we should never deploy them. It seems that mines kill and maim more children and other civilians than they ever do with troops.

Just too big a mess to correct, or clean up, but it sometimes helps to air our grievences, as it seems to help our feeling of helplessness. Just try not to take it all personally.

[Saundra Hummer]

In a rush here, but to answer one of your questions, no not for sinister reasons, but the out come surely is sinister.

More later, have to run!

[Second Front]

Get Me Rewrite!
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: February 6, 2004

Right now America is going through an Orwellian moment. On both the foreign policy and the fiscal fronts, the Bush administration is trying to rewrite history, to explain away its current embarrassments.

Let's start with the case of the missing W.M.D. Do you remember when the C.I.A. was reviled by hawks because its analysts were reluctant to present a sufficiently alarming picture of the Iraqi threat? Your memories are no longer operative. On or about last Saturday, history was revised: see, it's the C.I.A.'s fault that the threat was overstated. Given its warnings, the administration had no choice but to invade.

A tip from Joshua Marshall, of www.talkingpointsmemo.com, led me to a stark reminder of how different the story line used to be. Last year Laurie Mylroie published a book titled "Bush vs. the Beltway: How the C.I.A. and the State Department Tried to Stop the War on Terror." Ms. Mylroie's book came with an encomium from Richard Perle; she's known to be close to Paul Wolfowitz and to Dick Cheney's chief of staff. According to the jacket copy, "Mylroie describes how the C.I.A. and the State Department have systematically discredited critical intelligence about Saddam's regime, including indisputable evidence of its possession of weapons of mass destruction."

Currently serving intelligence officials may deny that they faced any pressure — after what happened to Valerie Plame, what would you do in their place? — but former officials tell a different story. The latest revelation is from Britain. Brian Jones, who was the Ministry of Defense's top W.M.D. analyst when Tony Blair assembled his case for war, says that the crucial dossier used to make that case didn't reflect the views of the professionals: "The expert intelligence experts of the D.I.S. [Defense Intelligence Staff] were overruled." All the experts agreed that the dossier's claims should have been "carefully caveated"; they weren't.

And don't forget the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans, created specifically to offer a more alarming picture of the Iraq threat than the intelligence professionals were willing to provide.

Can all these awkward facts be whited out of the historical record? Probably. Almost surely, President Bush's handpicked "independent" commission won't investigate the Office of Special Plans. Like Lord Hutton in Britain — who chose to disregard Mr. Jones's testimony — it will brush aside evidence that intelligence professionals were pressured. It will focus only on intelligence mistakes, not on the fact that the experts, while wrong, weren't nearly wrong enough to satisfy their political masters. (Among those mentioned as possible members of the commission is James Woolsey, who wrote one of the blurbs for Ms. Mylroie's book.)

And if top political figures have their way, there will be further rewriting to come. You may remember that Saddam gave in to U.N. demands that he allow inspectors to roam Iraq, looking for banned weapons. But your memories may soon be invalid. Recently Mr. Bush said that war had been justified because Saddam "did not let us in." And this claim was repeated by Senator Pat Roberts, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee: "Why on earth didn't [Saddam] let the inspectors in and avoid the war?"

Now let's turn to the administration's other big embarrassment, the budget deficit.

The fiscal 2005 budget report admits that this year's expected $521 billion deficit belies the rosy forecasts of 2001. But the report offers an explanation: stuff happens. "Today's budget deficits are the unavoidable result of the revenue erosion from the stock market collapse that began in early 2000, an economy recovering from recession and a nation confronting serious security threats." Sure, the administration was wrong — but so was everyone.

The trouble is that accepting that excuse requires forgetting a lot of recent history. By February 2002, when the administration released its fiscal 2003 budget, all of the bad news — the bursting of the bubble, the recession, and, yes, 9/11 — had already happened. Yet that budget projected only a $14 billion deficit this year, and a return to surpluses next year. Why did that forecast turn out so wrong? Because administration officials fudged the facts, as usual.

I'd like to think that the administration's crass efforts to rewrite history will backfire, that the media and the informed public won't let officials get away with this. Have we finally had enough?


E-mail: krugman@nytimes.com


Another form of revenue erosion--enormous tax cuts for the rich. Oh, and that $521 billion deficit? That DOESN'T include the money we'll spend on Iraq and Afghanistan next year. The Bushies conveniently left that figure out, knowing that inclusion would send the deficit estimate soaring into the $700 billion range. Dishonesty? Incompetency? (They forgot to put any money in at all for Afghanistan a couple of years ago.)
And now they're going to use U.S. taxpayer money to pay for ads designed to show us all what a wonderful thing their Medicare reform was. Where does it end? Nowhere, unless we boot him out in November. Personally I don't want a bankrupt country with an overextended and weakened military, unaffordable health-care, a budding theocracy, a lower standard of living, and the constant privileging of a wealthy, powerful elite over the interests of average Americans. The GOP has left the mainstream behind. The only question is whether or not they have enough money and power to snow enough voters into thinking otherwise. But you know what? American voters aren't stupid. They're waking up to the relentless parade of this administration, which is exactly why Bush is starting to plunge in the polls. People realize the country is headed in the wrong direction. There's hope yet for America!

[Andy D]

I'm putting everyone on notice that I will respond directly and pointedly to any political comments inside or outside the politics section that I feel goes over the edge.

Well I hope you do and would suggest that you read Norm Chomsky's latest book, or indeed anything by him and John Pilger and you may get a more rounded view of things.

"Putting" people on notice seems a little direct to me and I would suggest that you choose a different way to express the views that you hold.

Regards

Andy D.

[Andy D]

And where are your posts about deaths caused by Iraq, Syria, Iran, North Korea, and elsewhere? Hundreds against millions seems to be an anti-american perspective.

Well there is no doubt that the countries you mention have a poor human rights record etc. I guess the question is why the US and the UK decided to attack Iraq? Why did they not attack Syria or North Korea?

North Korea is now building Nuclear Power Plants, in order to produce energy and to challenge the threats that it still feels is ever present. The fact that the vast majority of the world do not trade with North Korea, and that the people are close to starving has been ignored by the US and the UK. A situation that Iraq experienced and resulted in millions of people dead because of US policies.

North Korea has very little to offer, in terms of resources, but it is near South Korea that bastian of democracy;) , and so the US has little responce save a few words.

Ask yourself why the millions you mention hate the US, ask yourself why millions feel the US has abused them and their country and try and read a little more than the history that is presented to you on CNN or ABC!

I look forward to your reply or notice.

Regards

Andy D.

[Saundra Hummer]

I thought that this is the thread for politics, separated from the jazz conversation's, but these thoughts are all by jazz enthusiasts. It's just that we are entitled to have divergent thoughts about politics as well as jazz. Doen't make us horrid people if we don't like your kind of jazz, or your brand of politics.

If we can't stand an attitude or a member, so what? If we can't stand a policy of a politician, so what? Doesn't hurt a thing. It might make you disgusted or pushed out of shape, but we're all adults here, and we can all handle the give and take of intelligent and meaningful discussion, whether it's about jazz, or about politics. Getting too upset, and wanting to control someones thoughts is something we should all try to avoid, don't you think?

[Andy D]

The illusion is that we really have free speach and debate, when in my view we have do not have either.

The history of the US and the UK is full of 'heroic' examples of how a dominant ideology, imposes this ideology on people that have a different way of seeing things. Look at Veitnam, Northern Ireland (Ireland) for example and you see the consequences of this.

To me the history of the US is one of a dominant race, white males, imposing their values and views on any one that has a different view. This can be the 'native indians', women, 'black people' or the new threat the Arabs, the Mexicans or anyone that is not white, male and English!

Regards

Andy D.

[Saundra Hummer]

Hi Andy,

We do have free speech here, we just can't use our speech to incite violence or any other subversion, but I can call anyone in the country any name I choose, try to overthrow any politician by legal means, by talking and talking against them in almost any forum that is available. I just can't knowingly incite riots, pretend I am going to bomb an airplane, or shoot someone, sensible rules, but for the most part we here in this contry can say and do just about anything we care to without ramifications. We might be shunned by our friends if we get too far out there, but we have the right to be a little crazy about things if we choose to be.

Sure there are all types of glass ceilings, for all sorts of people. Just human nature, but being able to be free with our thoughts and with our attitudes, makes it a pretty good place to be. We are making improvements all of the time, and we keep fighting for things to be better. We have the right to complain and file petitions to change laws, to improve the human condition, and for the most part, things are pretty good, it's just that we can do so much more, and our politicians need to realize who it is they are in office to serve. We're the grist that turns the wheels and without the average citizen, where would they and big business be?

[Tenorman]

First of all let me state that I am what could be described as e-political. I do not support any political party. I will support or criticise the policies of any political party, depending on my view.

Saundra: On the issue of free speech, many of my acquaintances (and I) were quite shocked at the treatment of the Dixie Chicks in the US when one of them said something along the lines of -- she was embarassed to come from the same state as President Bush. Newspapers were up in arms, some radio stations refused to play their songs. To us here in the UK the comment was mild, even innocuous, and put a big question mark over the tradition and legally enshrined right of free speech in the US. Not even the BBC will pull an artist for criticising the Government, or Royalty, and that comment by the Dixie Chick member would not even be considered criticism

Was this a one-off or do you really have the protected right of free speech. I seem to remember profuse apologies having to be made.

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by Tenorman
First of all let me state that I am what could be described as e-political. I do not support any political party. I will support or criticise the policies of any political party, depending on my view.

Saundra: On the issue of free speech, many of my acquaintances (and I) were quite shocked at the treatment of the Dixie Chicks in the US when one of them said something along the lines of -- she was embarassed to come from the same state as President Bush. Newspapers were up in arms, some radio stations refused to play their songs. To us here in the UK the comment was mild, even innocuous, and put a big question mark over the tradition and legally enshrined right of free speech in the US. Not even the BBC will pull an artist for criticising the Government, or Royalty, and that comment by the Dixie Chick member would not even be considered criticism

Was this a one-off or do you really have the protected right of free speech. I seem to remember profuse apologies having to be made.


Hi Tenorman!

No you were right about the Dixie Chicks, there are those that try to control us all, and then there are those that own the media, and they are aligned with the conservatives, and the Christian coallition, and they do try to control what we hear and who we back politically, but we have the right to stand up and fight back, and I for one defended Natalies deceision to say what she did, and came down on those who thought she should be boycotted for what she said. Too bad people want to control our every thought and our every word. Hey, my relatives are all Texans and we don't think the way the ones who tried to ruin her career do. We have minds of our own, we don't follow some misguided sanctimonious bigot down the garden path.

[Tenorman]

I suppose that there is a point where those who are in a public-influencing position such as pop stars and popular sports stars, have to be careful, and have to temper their right to free speech with the knowledge that there are people who hang on their every word. I suppose this is the point where personal morals come in to play.

One of my gripes is that "everyone" claims rights, but seem to forget that with those rights come duties.

[kenny weir]

Originally posted by Adam Lozo
Why are you not trying to present a more accurate picture of the world?

Adam - welcome back.

The people here, including those whos views you oppose, are thinking people who, as far as I can see, reek of sincerity. They ARE trying to present an accuarate picture - as they see it. The fact you disagree with them doesn't necessarily make their views any less accurate, or yours more accurate. I know that to some people that will be dismissed as post-modernistic garbage. I don't care about that. I would've cleared out of AAJ and the other jazz discussion sites long ago had I taken offence at the hundreds, perhaps thousands of smug put-downs, scathing attacks and snarling, baseless sarcasm I have observed being delivered by Bushies and Rightists.

I would also ask you to look on the bright side as far as the AAJ political aspect is concerned in this regard: This is a chance for ordinary folks in the US to hear, see and think about how their country and its policics and policies are seen - and often feared - in the rest of the world.

The greater "worldliness" of AAJ has gradually had me leaning towards it as my "home site". I doubt, for instance, that a thread about Australian jazz would have generated as much interest and enthusiasm elsewhere, and I am very grateful for that.

It would be a very foolish mistake to interpret the anti-Bush sentiments of other board members - from both the US and abroad - as anti-Americanism. Overwhelmingly it isn't, although I accept that that may be the case with some individuals, and obviously anti-Americanism does exist. But to blindly accept that anti-Bush=anti-America is absurd.

On the other hand, I have no problem sharing my love of music, and jazz, in particular, as well as a love of life and its many absurdities with anyone here, regardless of political persuasion. I have no desire to force my views on them, but I expect the freedom to air them nevertheless.

[Andy D]

Kenny.

I enjoyed reading your post and I share a number of the points you made, in particular the Anti-Bush-Anti American debate. It is easy to get lost in the view that any comment on GW is an attack on the US, and perhaps this ilustrates to some extent how American Governments think.

Any critical analysis of US foreign policy for example, is seen as an attack on the nation that must be defended at all cost. People like Norm Chomsky's are critical of this, and the way the media attempt to manufacture the 'consent ' of the people, through the media and this results in the illusion that we have freedom and that we have the full-facts.

We can also loose track of the fact that there is a world beyond the US and the UK, and many people in both these countries seem at times to be unconcerned about this. So many Americans for example do have little knowledge of other parts of the world, and this can cause difficulties.

Regards

Andy D.

[mickey/lynn]

Martin Luther King Jr. Malcom X, Fred Hampton, Henry Morgan, Medgar Evers, Viola Luzzo, Emmet Till, James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwrener (the 3 civil rights worker in Miss. helping register blacks to vote), too many more to name...


All murdered here in America, in the name of "free speech"...

[Frank Mullen]

I always thought they were murdered in by rednecks because they were in favor of free speech and citizens rights for their people.

[Frank Mullen]

And one of those rights is to call my president an ass.

Bush is an ass. Is that anti-American?

[Tenorman]

Sorry Frank, I can't agree with that. Free speech entitles you to criticise the words or actions of another person, I don't believe it includes the right to make personal insults. Perhaps we just draw the line in different places

[Andy D]

Tenorman.

I would agree with you and the distinction you make, personal insults are rarely helpful in any discussion or debates. Of course we can debate the true meaning of free speech, or to what extent we feel that we can persue this.

Regards

Andy D.

[Frank Mullen]

Tenorman.

There is a good anecdote about Churchill recounted in "The Last Lion" by William Manchester. There is an ironclad rule in Parliament against calling another member an insulting name directly although there are countless indirect insults iin the history books. A new member ranted at Churchill using direct insults.Later, the new member's leadership sent him off to Churchill's home to apologize. His butler found Churchill in the bathroom and announced the member's arrival. Churchill replied "Tell him to wait. I can only take one shit at a time"

Sorry to be so coarse, but I figure if Churchill can use it, so can I. As to calling someone else an ass, I agree that it just ain't done except if he is in politics. As Truman pointed out, "If you can't take the heat,stay out of the kitchen." And this ass is responsible for killing a lot of people." Ass" is too polite for that.

[Saundra Hummer]

How deep into free speech does racism go?

The men that M/L talks about for the most part were murdered by backward thinking cruel people, doubt there were many people any of them could get along with in their own race.

Malcom X was murdered by his own, as they were afraid of the following he was garnering. I guess one could say it was what he was saying that got him killed, not racism in his case.

There are hardly any peoples that don't have racism in their phyche. Everyone of us has it in us to some degree, some to the degree that they let it take over too many of their emotions, they let it disrupt their lives. They teach it to their children, their bitterness is contagious, and bitterness never helped anyone, not ever. Their hatreds breed more hatred, and ruin lives. Such a waste, such a pity! Everyone needs to see the good in everyone, not search out what they consider to be their faults. We need to help people make better lives for themselves, especially the children, if you have hatred and bitterness within you, how are you going to prepare the next generations for what is ahead in their lives? To go through life with such negative emotions can only be a downer, it can't help a thing.

[Andy D]

Sandi.

Seeing the good in people is difficult for some people to do, we live in a problem-focused world and we often see the worst in people, whether this is in the children we teach, the parents we come across or our views of other countries.

You are right we do need to make people's lives better, to prepare for the next generation to do this we need to try and take a hard look at our respective societies and communities, to challenge some of the politics of our respectives governments etc.

This for many is very difficult to do.

Regards

Andy D.

[xX_Double_Bassist_Xx]

Has anyone ever read a book by Will Ferguson? Eg. Bastards and Boneheads, How to be a Canadian etc.

In one particular book I was reading by him called: "Why I hate Canadians!" (he is a Canadian by the way) discusses how Canadians and many other countries think we're the big friendly giant who doesn't have an opinion and doesn't do any thing right or wrong. Actually most think we do nothing at all but it brought up a good point, most people (from any country) tend to ignore the bad things and yet they still critisize. I think before someone is to be judged, the one attacking (I know it's a strong word) should take a good hard look at there own faults and be ready to give appropriate answer if a question concerning them arose. That book was Canadian history novel form for me. I live in Canada and half the things in that book I had no clue about. :confused:

It all bottles down to, before finding faults in another person, organization, race, country look at the faults in yourself. (And no you're not perfect even though it may seem that way.:laugh: )

P.S. Oh! By the way read the book it's really good even if you aren't a Canadian. Plus: How to be a Canadian? (that handbook for people entering the country haha) and Bastards and Boneheads. (politics and leaders)

[Tenorman]

I seem to remember that sentiment contained in a rather ancient book. Along the lines of "Remove the plank from your own eye before attempting to remove that from your neighbour's"

Good advice bears repeating

[Saundra Hummer]

You're recall is fantastic, mine is shot!

[Tenorman]

Despite the high esteem in which Churchill was held, he was, or could be a downright nasty so-and-so. I don't subscribe to the "he can do it, therefore so can I" school of thinking.

If you go to any management training classes, one of the things they always tell you, is that when you are "having words with" a member of staff, you criticise the action, never the person. Criticising the person can often lead to antagonism. I also do not believe that the fact the subject of the criticism will not get to hear of it (excuse me while I chuck this FBI man out of my house - how did he get in here in the first place:D ), should be an excuse to do it.

Think we will have to agree to disagree on this one

[Saundra Hummer]

The same principle as one having a conscience.

My mother instilled in us the fact that if you do something you shouldn't do, steal, not be truthful, or any number of things, that it very well could be that no one will ever know about it, but you will, and it will always bother you.

With sociopaths that is a different story.

[Frank Mullen]

Tenorman--

I'm truly sorry I can't help but express my dismay at Bush--no, my anger. I spent enough time in the service to feel strongly about all the guys who have been killed and shot up due to the policies of this guy and his administration. I restrained myself to keep from calling him more than an ass.Not to mention his being responsible for all the civilians,women and kids both, being killed or wounded

We'll just have to agree that i'm not as saintly as to do otherwise.

I'm reminded that the late great Bobby Hackett was apparently that kind of a person who NEVER said anything bad about anyone. During the war some of his fellow musicians tried to shake him of it and asked him what he thought of Hitler. Bobby replied that "He's probably the best at what he does"

I can't do that, Sorry, tenorman. He's hurt too many people.
.

[Saundra Hummer]

I guess it is like Bush calling a journalist on an open mike "A real Asshole!!" and Cheney saying "Big Time!" We have a lot of reason to believe he is one. He has those opinions himself about people who don't agree with him, and we that don't agree with him think the same way about him! Ha!