Gilad Atzmon & The Orient House Ensemble

[Andy D]

I have just finished listening to this album, for the fith time and I think it it one of the best albums I have listened to. Anyway the album is dedicated to the suffering of the Palestinian people, and Atzmon leaves you in no doubt as to his cause.

Despite this I feel he is trying to blur the boundaries between the Jewish and Arabic cultures. So I have a number of questions is there a close association between jazz and politics? Well I guess there is, but it seems to be a one sided one Jazz musicians have their 'causes' . Atzmon on the other hand seems to be a little different.

Any thoughts?

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

Atzmon is intriguing. An Israeli 'refugee', bitterly critical of his homeland. His website is an intriguing place:

http://www.gilad.co.uk/

I'm not sure just how often he does this but I have heard of him accepting bookings on the condition that a political debate is held one hour before the concert!

A great live performer - he tours frequently in the UK. Try and catch him. I'm hoping to see him with the Urban Jazz Ensemble later this month.

I very much like his 2000 CD named after the band with some strange takes on Nardis (renamed Nard-ish) and Footprints (renamed Rai Print).

********

I'm not sure that there is any necessary connection between jazz and politics. There are political jazz musicians and apolitical ones. Much as there are in classical, folk and rock music.

With the origins of jazz as a black 20thC music there's inevitably going to be connections with the struggle for civil rights and I'm sure we can all cite the overt examples - Ellington, Max Roach, Mingus, Archie Shepp etc.

In the end I don't think there's an equation jazz = politics. But there are plenty of politically minded jazz musicians or jazz musicians who feel they need to use their music to address political issues.

I like music with a political element as long as it's not beating you over the head with it. The subtle approach works wonders! Dave Douglas is clearly a man with political concerns but he seems to handle them in a thoughful way.

[Andy D]

I guess one of my thoughts was that some jazz musicians, have for example dabbled with politics in that they have become overtly involved in the issues of the day such as race relations and environmental issues.

Atzmon seems to be a little different, in that he has a cause, but his methods seem to be different, in that he is trying to unite people with very different views. Compare this with some of the music of people like Pharoah Sanders ( Black Unity etc) and even Miles Davis ( Jack Johnson) and John Coltrane and I wonder if there is a difference?

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

I am sure Atzmon is motivated by a genuine concern for the Palestinian people; and for the Israeli people.

But he can come across as the angry young firebrand, as much as any Mingus, venting his rage at what he despises as much as explaining what he supports. Take this from his site:

Israeli People's Most Common Mistakes By Gilad Atzmon

22.8.03

The most common mistakes made by Israelis are as follows:

1. To fail to realize that there is no essential difference between Tel Aviv and a Jewish settlement in the West Bank.

2. To believe that the creation of the state of Israel was an outcome of the Holocaust.

3. To regard themselves as innocent people and thus as victims of the Israeli_ Palestinian conflict.

4. To believe that they live in a democracy and therefore that their atrocities are legitimate.

5. To be convinced that they live in an open society which enjoys olitical and ideological diversity.

6. To believe that the ghetto is behind them.

7. To be convinced that the 'Jewish state' is a legitimate concept.

8. To think that Israel is a shelter for the entire Jewish people and the best answer to anti-Semitism.

9. To regard themselves as humanists.

10. To be sure that Israel is immortal.

Whilst I am sure he aspires to uniting the divided peoples in the region he comes from the above suggests that he has not moved beyond the anger stage to focusing on reconciliation. It strikes me he has been deeply hurt by his country and is still lashing out.

[Andy D]

I guess it is interesting in that Atzmon is Jewish and is prepared to articulate the view of an increasing number of people in Israel have. The difference is that his views are reported, and he has the platform to do this.

I do not see him as 'angry' but like Norm Chomsky he uses his music as a way of articulating a different view of the current situation.

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

Oh, I certainly find it refreshing to hear such views coming from someone with roots within the Jewish community of Israel. He has clearly been deeply touched by his experiences there and has thought deeply about his own position in relation to his homeland.

He's playing with the Urban Jazz Ensemble on what I think is a short tour later this month. A group well worth checking out if they arrive close to you. Details here:

http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3250

[snoutinator]

if anyone's curious, here's my review of "exile," by this group...

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/review.php?id=10443

[Andy D]

Good review.

The album was voted BBC Jazz album of the year 2003, and as you suggest Atzmon's range is impressive.

Regards

Andy D.

[mickey/lynn]

I am always amazed at the comment "comes across as angry" in relation to people who are in situations where fellow human beings are making their fellow human beings suffer. This is not a "perfect world" where those who are suffering are all going to agree on the right way to respond to their suffering. What's so wrong about being angry??? Have any of you, who subscribe to the "comes across as angry" comment, ever been in a situation such as the one mentioned?? It's so easy playing "arm chair" psychiatrist when you A) have no clue as to what that situation FEELS like, or B) you're not even well versed enough on the subject to know and unnderstand where the anger is coming from. I understand the anger, I also know that the anger has a way of driving the "comes across as angry people" away from the subject because "they" feel that it must be done in a kinder more gentler way. Sometimes people who are victims of these situations, feel as though they've waited long enough and seeing generations of people DIE and still, there is no solution on the horizon, anger becomes their way of "getting even". No, it dosen't make things better, it only makes thing worse, BUT, how much worse can it get, when it's not getting any better??? We can talk until we are blue in the face about what people "need" to do in order to work these conflicts out- when you are dealing with human nature- the need for most humans to feel some sort of superiority over other humans (in almost every facet of life I believe, this holds true) and factor that in with the type of society we live in today (me,me,me- selfishness rules!) his anger and people who are in situations where they are being made to suffer unjustly- their anger is warranted. That dosen't mean I agree with blowing yourself up- inflicting more pain and causing more reactionary behavior- I feel a tremendous amount of sadness whenever I hear about a suicide bomber. Then I get "angry" about the whole idea that people are dying and being treated unjustly because of religion/race/gender- all issues that a lot of the "comes across as angry" people have NEVER been subjected to, but they ALWAYS seem to have the most to say about it.

I also realize that Atzmon is jewish, (I had never heard of him before) and knowing how he feels about the situation in his homeland, makes me think mighty highly of him. In order for change to come about over in that part of the world, you need more people like him, who are courageous enough to stand up and speak out, not afraid of the consequences he may face. How many of you "comes across as angry" people are willing to do that?????

Thanks for the info on this guy!! (wait, he IS a guy right? I got into trouble in a differnet thread by "assuming" that a gal was a gal, when the person was really a guy!)

I also want to add, in regards to jazz and politics. Whenever you're talking about blacks and anything- at least here in America- politics go hand in hand with the subject. I will not go into detail about my thoughts on this subject, I already did that in another thread and had some "people" who reside in England tell me (in a nutshell) how wrong my thoughts are on race and jazz music. HAHA!!!
It's a given if people know the history of blacks here in America- you already know the huge role politics has played in our exsitence in the USA- if you don't know (and SO many of you don't-which is okay but don't act as if you do when you really don't) then may i gently suggest to you to read. There is a wealth of information out there which would give people a better view on what I've said. If you don't know the history, how in the world can you you make assumptions and suggestions? The artists that were mentioned don't even tip the scale when you speak of the jazz artists who voiced concerns over the political situation of blacks and the way in which they were treated and their people. Rap music did the same thing back in it's heyday (it's shameful what has happened to rap music today- it's musical-porn!) It's black history month (February) go out and learn more about black people.
:wink2:

[Saundra Hummer]

It's my opinion rebel that I tend to be, that anger can sometimes be a good thing, that it is often times warranted, and prods us into actions to overcome actions that are harmful, and unfair. It gives us that adrenillin rush that is needed to give us the jump on a problem, then common sense has to take over to finish the task.

Bitterness however is just that, "A Bitter Pill," one that can do no good, accomplish no goals, just drag one down, and contaminate those around us.

[Bev Stapleton]

Did they cancel your sermon in church today, mickey/lynn? Best not to let it go to waste; use it on the poor benighted souls at AAJ who lack your insight and compassion. I'm sure we all feel chastened and will don the sackcloth and ashes and set about reading about this things on which we are clearly completely ignorant (compared with your own erudition).

As usual you miss the point of the discussion Andy and myself were having and simply go off on one.

Andy was explaining how he hears in the Atzmon recording an attempt to reconcile (thus the use of musicians from both Jewish and Arab backgrounds; the playing of a well known Jewish theme in an Arab style). He seems to be quite right. This seems to be Atzmon's clear intention. My experience of Atzmon in concert and on record is of a quite gentle, yet impassioned musician.

I merely point out that Atzmon is not a quiet reconciler but a very in your face exponent when it comes to his political beliefs, which he goes out of his way to express. That comes across in his writings as anger. His ultimate aim is undoubtedly reconciliation - but at present he clearly feels great anger at the government of Israel.

At no point do I even suggest that his 'anger' is wrong. It is very easy to understand.

Andy and myself are talking about different aspects of Atzmon - the music of 'Exile', the political comments of the man. They may be different but are not exclusive of one another. You can make reconcilatory music and still hold political views that are (justifiably) angry.

I am tempted to suggest you take some time to improve your reading comprehension.

***********

mickey/lynn, You have no knowledge whatsoever of what people at AAJ do or do not know about the issues you mention. This board opens a tiny window into individual members thinking - what lies beyond is a mystery. Don't assume just because it helps build your ego.

I would suggest you drop this pose of being the great defender of the rights of the persecuted in the face of board ignorance. I think you'll find a number of people here work on a daily basis in areas involved directly with the issues you mention.

You might even actually listen to the recording under discussion! It's an excellent jazz record, regardless of its politics. Or would that be too much trouble?

[Andy D]

In any given conflict there are always two sides to the story, Atzmon has his and other people have their's.

I origionally posted on the broad question of 'jazz and politics', and I was interested in Atzmon's position, in that he is Jewish, it is difficult for Jewish people who are aganist their governments policies to have their voice heard and to get their message across. Atzmon, as Bev suggests has some very specific views about what he feels his government has done, and yet in his music I see attempts at reconciliation.

Bev makes a very valid point, that Atzmon, to some people will appear to be 'in your face' and indeed angry, and in this respect he may not do his particular 'cause' any favours. The music I hear is about working together, universal injustice, co-operation etc etc. Again Bev makes a good point, in that his music and his political views may be different, then again they may not and at least we can respectively discuss these issues.

Regards

Andy D.

[Andy D]

I find it interesting that the notes in the album start with the words " This album is made by musicians who live in exile", and Atzmon makes the distinction between those who choose to live in exile and those that have little choice!

He skillfully takes traditional jewish tunes and nationalistic songs, and builds on these to give a somewhat different perspective of things.

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

It's a great album regardless of the politics. Do seek out that earlier 2000 CD. It is excellent. His 2001 recording, Nostalgico, was a jollier affair!

[Andy D]

As I type this I am listening to the album, and the track 'AL-QUDS', which is an " arabic interpretation of an Israeli tune that became the anthem of the '67' war" which I think this is one of he best tracks on the album, and builds to a great climax that shows Atzmon at his best.

Yes I think it is a great ablum, and for me one of the best I have heard recently. Atzmon is also an interesting character musically, he was a member of the 'Blockheads' with the late Ian Dury for example.

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

And I listen to Nostalgico as we type. Lovely, uncontroversial music.

Atzmon has the skill to do both. More power to his elbow (fingers? brain?).

[Andy D]

Well a 1000's posts Bev!

I appreciate your contributions and sometimes out little disagreements;)

Anyway yes Atzmon is a very skillful musician who is able to play ballards and very controlled music, and at the same time play 'controversial' music and have the ability to 'mix' traditional' sounds and themes with a degree of freedom and expression.

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

Didn't notice that!

No problem with the disagreements, Andy. What would be the point of boards like this if we all agreed? The thing is to try to do it respectfully.

I've neve felt anything else from your posts.

[bubber]

I like Atzmon a lot. When I first heard him, (quite a few years ago) he had a straight post bop quartet (British, I believe), playing mostly tenor but also some alto and clarinet. It was a very good group and some excellent saxophone playing. Anybody know if he ever recorded that group?

[fent99]

Only heard a track or two on a tv broadcast which pricked up my ears. Does he still play with the Blockheads?
Strangely he's written a novel which I recently finished. Its a black (very black) comedy and well worth looking out for.

[Andy D]

I do not think he plays with the 'Blockheads' now, he has moved onto Jazz. I was aware of the novel and had thought of trying to get a copy of this.

Regards

Andy D.

[snoutinator]

Originally posted by Andy D
As I type this I am listening to the album, and the track 'AL-QUDS', which is an " arabic interpretation of an Israeli tune that became the anthem of the '67' war" which I think this is one of he best tracks on the album, and builds to a great climax that shows Atzmon at his best.


The tune in question is Naomi Shermer's '67 Six Day War anthem "Jerusalem of Gold," which Atzmon reprises as "Al-Quds," literally "the holy," the Arabic name for Jerusalem. That's an about face if you ever heard one.

[Andy D]

In the sleeve notes he says the song is an Arabic interpretation of the song you mention. The origional Hebrew lyrics refer to the return of the Jewish people to Jerusalem. In Atzmon's version it is more about longing for a homeland that seems to go beyond nationalistic and racial boundaries.

" I have lost my homeland
I have lost the lillies sting
My night has been long
Stretched over the garden walls
But I have not lost the way.

My palm has grown accustomed
To my wounded hopes
Shake my hands violently
And the river of songs will flood

O Mother of my colt and my sword

O Mother, O Mother
I can bear the stabbing of daggers more
Than the rule of a coward over me."

Now to me this could be any person, any community expressing about how they feel about having no homeland, and in this respect moves far beyond the origional.

Regards

Andy D.

[JPW]

Originally posted by snoutinator
The tune in question is Naomi Shermer's '67 Six Day War anthem "Jerusalem of Gold," which Atzmon reprises as "Al-Quds," literally "the holy," the Arabic name for Jerusalem. That's an about face if you ever heard one.
It's also about "as in yer face" as it gets. Must check the guy's music out. I liked the Blockheads.

[mickey/lynn]

To Bev.

What point did I miss on your statements and Andy??????????
What in heaven's name are YOU talking about???????
Repeating Andy's and your replies was totally unnecessary because I CAN READ and I understand and understood what you two were writing about. I will not sit here and take your verbal assults towards my "lack of comprehension"- I am not some stupid, ignorant nigger. I feel very passionately, such as the young man we are talking about in this thread, about the RIGHTS of people who have historically been treated "shitty" and unjust and EXCUSE me if my passion "bothers" you or anyone else on this site. Your flagrant ignorance about matters that are of importance to people who have been and are regularly mistreated in this world because of the color of their skin, gender, religious beliefs- astounds me. No, your very skilled use of the english language does not negate your absolute "need" to try and make me feel as if I am some stupid ass. Then you have the audacity to "suggest" that I drop the pose of being the great defender etc...When you "drop" yourself into Waterloo Bridge, then and only then will I consider dropping my pose. How dare you make that suggestion to me. YOU and a lot of other people may not agree with many things I say, but you are not me, you do not know my experiences and the many times I have faced and been discrimanated against at work, finding a home, et...YES I have experienced it and it's DEVASTATING. So to you and any one else who thinks I am "bitter" or ignorant--to hell with you. You cann't help but feel absolute fury when you realize that you are being discrimanted against, but that feeling does (and did) eventually go away, but it's something I will never ever forget. Walk a block, screw a mile, walk a block in my shoes and THEN come and talk to me about "dropping my pose". I'm not sure if the bitterness remark made by Sanudra was directed at me, but you are way off the mark if you think I am bitter. Let's lay that theory to rest right now,I AM NOT BITTER!!!!! I am passionate and for the rest of my days on this earth, I will never drop my "pose"- When any of you experience being denied housing solely based on your skin color (this was proven as I sued the realtor's office and WON) then come and talk to me about being bitter. When you are passed over for a better position in not one, but two different job situations- and have the white woman who was given the job in one situation, come to me and tell me that I should have gotten it???? THEN talk to me about dropping my "pose". These are situations that affected my well being, my livlihood, the fact that I have two children to raise and look after, and then have to try and contain the hurt and not let it "get" to me and poison my being??? Your statements were extremely offensive to me Bev, and show to me your total lack of compassion.....

[Andy D]

You know I have worked in areas of conflict for many years, even spent some time in Belfast at the height of the troubles, and I teach and run workshops on moving beyond the trauma that many people experience.

You know mickey/lynn you seem to have had your fair share of 'difficult experiences' in life, and perhads the passion that you refer to has helped you cope with these experiences. One thing that comes across for me, is the courage and determination you seem to have show in resolving these difficulties. And I am genually curious as to what helped you cope and move beyond the experiences you talk about?

I also wonder what it tells the people that know you the best, about you personal qualities and strengths, that despite these experiences, you still have the drive to go on, to keep going for jobs ec etc. To my limited way of thinking I think that takes a great deal of courage.

And this brings me back to Atzmon who articulates a particular position, one that many people agree with and some do not. And I guess it reminds me that there are many truths out there, which one we choose will be determined by our own experiences and culture as well as family and the people close to us. For example I have some friends in Israel, who happen to be psychologists like me. Now their position is different from Atzmon's, they have experienced the effects of the suicide bombers and the life they lead as a consequence, creates stress and anxiety and a whole range of problems.

Finally I do not know Bev well, apart from what she posts in this forum, but I did not see in her response to you any words that suggested you are a 'stupid, ignorant nigger', which I find very offensive. Now I do have some experience of working in black and ethnic minority areas in the UK, and from my many conversations, some of which are on this list, with many individuals and members of various communities and the work I have done in these communities, I am well aware of the effects of racism is society and in particular the effects this has on black and ethnic minority women.

I hope we can find some way to move beyond this current situation.

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

Mickey/Lynn,

To quote from your initial post here, the post that provoked my response:

"I am always amazed at the comment "comes across as angry" in relation to people who are in situations where fellow human beings are making their fellow human beings suffer. This is not a "perfect world" where those who are suffering are all going to agree on the right way to respond to their suffering. What's so wrong about being angry??? Have any of you, who subscribe to the "comes across as angry" comment, ever been in a situation such as the one mentioned?? It's so easy playing "arm chair" psychiatrist when you A) have no clue as to what that situation FEELS like, or B) you're not even well versed enough on the subject to know and unnderstand where the anger is coming from.

1. "What's so wrong about being angry?" At no point did I say anything was wrong with being angry.

2. Have any of you, who subscribe to the "comes across as angry" comment, ever been in a situation such as the one mentioned?? It's so easy playing "arm chair" psychiatrist when you A) have no clue as to what that situation FEELS like. How do you know what I do or do not have a clue about? To use your own words "you do not know my experiences".

3. "you're not even well versed enough on the subject to know and unnderstand where the anger is coming from." And how do you know this?

****************

My difference with you is purely over your misinterpretation of the debate Andy and myself were having. At the risk of repeating myself again, at no point did I suggest Atzmon's anger was right or wrong. You merely assumed I was criticising him for being "angry".

You seem to have misread the debate (no intention to criticise your intellectual abilities, we all get the wrong end of the stick sometimes for any number of reasons) and rushed to follow up a particular argument you had already put forward on another thread. In fact both of your 'passionate' posts appear to be more of a case of you thundering into a perfectly well-mannered debate to pontificate on issues that clearly concern you. Fine. But I don't think you're expressing them in the appropriate forum.

I was not aware of your race and as a result that had no influence on my response. I was challenging your tone which on the two occasions I have responded to you has been hectoring, jumping to the immediate assumption that everyone else does not understand what you do. That's a poor way to enter any debate.

Finally, you choose to tell us about the difficulties you have experienced in your life. That is your choice. But it gives you no position of moral superiority. The fact that others do not talk in detail about their own experiences does not mean that they do not have their own harsh experiences or do not have experience of working with people in such a situation. They just do not feel it appropriate to talk about it here.

I have no wish to be insulting to you, Mickey/Lynn. Work on the assumption that I have a different outlook to yours rather than a wrong one and you'll find our exchanges will be completely civil.

*********

Oh, by the way Andy. I'm male!!!! Don't worry. I'm not offended!

[Simon Weil]

I think the problem between Bev and Mickey/Lynn is not so much content (though it is that as well) as style. I mean I really do believe that M/L is telling the truth from his perspective - and I've known Bev for long enough online to say that nothing he does like this is less than serious to him. You should get something good out of that, and yet the two are setting each other off.

On the style issue, in the UK, articulation of extreme emotion is frowned upon - so when Mickey/Lynn says what's wrong with getting angry. Well, in the UK, where Bev and I live (in theory anyway) a lot.

You two sound like chalk and cheese.

Simon Weil

[Saundra Hummer]

I think that if any number of us were to have the life ecperiences of fellow members, we would be surprised at the challanges and heartbreaks any number of us have experienced, or are experiencing, but to get so angry and accusatory about someones inner thoughts, those which none of us actually know, I find this disturbing. It is as if you are looking for someone to vent your anger on, and for what possible good? Perhaps this is a way for you to contain yourself, to keep from going off on a more destructive tangent, as we are all strangers here, even though we might feel we know one another. Perhaps it keeps you from venting your anger with friends, relatives, and family. This is how it appears.

Believe me, there are other discriminations other than race. It is just the nature of human beings to discriminate against someone, the need to feel superior, perhaps to make themselves into something that they are not for their own self preservation. A need to feel that they themselves matter. All races, and religions have this in them, and even neighborhoods, so it isn't something to lose it about, but rather show that you are a rational, caring person, working to better this world, rather than fill it with anger and hatred. I agree that sometimes anger can be channneled into good things, but that is not always the case. Being able to defend ones views, and posts is a natural response to anger and insults. Just the way it is.

Bev, I could tell by your posts, your comments and thought process that your's is a mans name. I have a cousin named Carrol, that people always think of as a girl.

[Bev Stapleton]

Short for Bevel. An old name from Cornwall. The only live person I know with it is my (Cornish) father though it crops up in a Daphne du Maurier novel. The Royalist leader of the Cornishmen at the start of the English Civil War was one Sir Bevil Grenville. Killed just outside Bath. There's a statue there.

Mystery explained.

[Andy D]

You see the power of the internet has limits, as I think males are females and visa versa ;)

Sorry Bev I won't make that mistake again:wink2:

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

No problem, Andy. It happens frequently.

I've yet to be propositioned. But it can only be a matter of time...

[Andy D]

Yep I'm kinda dissapointed that I now know you are male:D

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

Careful, Andy.

Your wife might be looking over your shoulder!!!!

[Andy D]

:D

[Saundra Hummer]

Think that Andy might better be looking over his, as his wife is a 10. Pretty girl, and a million dollar smile. Cute couple!

[Andy D]

Now I am blushing :embarass:

Regards

Andy D.

[Simon Weil]

While I'm in this thread, I just want to say I thought that was a good review by Nils.

Carefully written.

Simon Weil

[Andy D]

The album is for me one of the best I have listened to this year, it came out in 2003.

It has a sound that seems to me at least, to embellish all the struggles in the region, and fuses arabic sounds with Atzmon's version of jazz.

Great jazz.

Regards

Andy D.

[Bev Stapleton]

Have you listened to Rabih Abou-Khalil, Andy? A Lebanese oud player who has done a series of beautiful (and gorgeously packaged) albums for Enja. He takes the Arabic music of his background and fuses it with jazz, playing with a very wide range of musicians.

'The Cactus of Knowledge' is a very good place to start:

http://www.enjarecords.com/images/enj9401.jpg

Take a look here:

http://www.enjarecords.com/c9401.htm

[Bev Stapleton]

Just back from seeing Atzmon as part of the Urban Jazz Ensemble (ironically at the closing night of the Shieffield Non-Political Club as a jazz venue). Clearly his space was limited having two other saxes (including the great Peter King), a trumpet and a piano to share the front line with. But his two extended solos of the evening were quite superb.

He wasn't remotely angry! Extremely good humoured as it happens!

[mickey/lynn]

Andy,

I just want to thank you for your comments. You have always come across (to me) as someone who is fair-minded and knowledgeable. I did not have any beef with your comments at all--it was your fellow english---person.

Sandra,

I realize and know there are many forms of discrimination-that's a given. You make assumptions about me that I find extremly disturbing. It's as if Andy is the only person who sees and understands where I am coming from. Now I am filling the world up with anger and all that other nonsense you wrote. And the destructive tangent reference??? Lady, please..If you gathered all the blacks in this country who have had experiences such as the one I wrote about and some more devastating and hurtful than mine--white people are lucky that we all have not picked up weapons and gone the way of Nat Turner. You do know who Nat Turner is/was?? This goes to show, and Andy touched on it--how most black people have dealt with the pain and hurt that discrimination has caused. You deal with it in some way, either postively or negatively. I am a very positve person- I have two great children that shows that, just because I disagree ( with some of Bev's comments- you paint a picture of me as some sort of unbalanced lunatic?? Who may be using this board to vent my frustrations--so that I may not go off on some sort of destructive tangent?? Are you for real??? Admit, you don't understand the whole history of racial discrimination, and the psychological aspect that it has had on people of color in this country--cause IF you or Bev understood--there is no way those statements you and HE wrote would ever appear. Andy gets it, you all don't.That is where some of my "anger" comes from--people like you two and my goodness- there are a ton of you out there. As Huey Newton said "you're either part of the solution, or part of the problem". Lastly Sandra, you made the comment- "it isn't something to lose it about" Lose what? My mind? Just what are you talking about?? Really don't answer that- it would only make me appear to be more "angry and destructive". I laugh, I really have to laugh at such comments now, because I see them for what they're worth--absolutley nothing. They don't apply to me.

Back to the subject at hand---I will have to check out this guy's music- as I am very much interested in his cause. Once again, thanks for the info on him.

[Bev Stapleton]

mickey/lynn,

I cannot pretend to understand the experiences you are talking about personally. Of course I have not experienced them at first hand which will mean even if I try to empathise I can only get so close.

Having said that I would imagine that the vast majority of posters on a jazz board like this are aware of the issues you are talking about. Their love of, and interest in, jazz will, in most cases, have created a deep respect for those people who originated it and have led the way through most of its history. I'd imagine most are outraged by the way black (and Hispanic and Asian, Polish, Irish etc) people have been treated over the years.

Now you say you feel insulted by the way that I (and one or two others) have reacted to your initial comments.

Don't you think we feel outraged at having our good intentions misinterpreted and doubted by yourself?

You ask Saundra if she knows who Nat Turner is. I'm sure she knows exactly who he is. Your question is accusing her of ignorance.

You say we don't understand the history of racial discrimination in the USA. Again. That's very insulting. We might not understand it with the intensity of having lived it, but do give us some credit for trying.

The responses you have met here are no indication of any negative attitudes with regard to racial issues. They are a direct response to the accusatory way you have weighed into the threads.

If any of us are guilty of having been rude to you - and I'll admit to have been pretty withering in my sarcasm - it is in response to the way you have attempted to teach us a lesson. My quarrel is with your tone.

*******

Finally, this might explain why I responded so directly to your accusations.

I am a history teacher in a school in central England. It is a white, working class area that has suffered over the last twenty years from the deprivation that accompanied the collapse of the mining industry. Racism is very strong, largely because there are very few non-white people in the area. It would probably be fair to describe the school as 99% white.

I choose what goes on the history curriculum. We have broad guidelines but a fair choice within. All 14 year olds spend their summer term studying firstly the US Civil Rights Movement and secondly the experiences of black people in Britain, particularly from the arrival of the Empire Windrush in 1948. Our advanced level students, preparing for university, also study a six month course on the Civil Rights Movement in the USA from 1945 to 1968.

I choose those topics because I think it is vital for the children I teach to confront the racial prejudice that is often handed down to them within the community.

Once again, I cannot pretend to have anything close to the experience of a black person in the USA (any more than I know what it was really like to be a Jew in Auschwitz - but I think I can emphasise enough with that to do my bit to ensure children know exactly what it was all about). I do go out of my way to make a tiny impact on the huge problem that racism remains today. Not just in the USA but in a Britain that has seen a multi-cultural society develop in the last 50 years and that is currently facing renewed racism as a consequence of the issues of EU immigration and asylum seeking.

I doubt for a minute that I know my US Civil Rights history in the depth that you do, mickey/lynn. But I'm pretty informed.

The whole issue of race in jazz is central, interesting, disturbing but needs to be discussed.

That can be best done by starting from an assumption that those engaged in the debate have good intentions.

Shouting at us will not help at all.

[mickey/lynn]

Bev

You talk about my tone?? What about yours? You are the civilzed one, I am the lunatic according to Saundra, right? I really took issue with your "reading comprehension" remark- it's not enough that worldwide, blacks are viewd as not being too bright, there have been books written about our "lack of intelligence" so yes, I took real issue with your little put down. Secondly, surprise! A ton of Americans have no idea who Nat Turner was/is just as a ton of them are totally ignorant on black history period. Our school systems have totally overlooked the history of blacks in this country- What you say you're teaching children there about blacks is blowing my mind!! Here in America they had to create "Black History Month" because of the lack of black history these schools were teaching our children. The only blacks you learn about (even today it's still minute what they teach) were Crispus Attucks, Benjamin Banneker, Fred Douglass, and MLK. A few things about slavery, the civil war- nothing in depth and the civil rights movement. So your just "assuming" that people here have knowledge on blacks in America is very wrong. And the honest ones will admit to that.....

You said give you credit for trying- trying what?And if you or anyone else were insulted by anything I said, why did you not state that? And you are assuming that the vast majority of pollsters on this board are aware of the issues- what does that mean? If being aware makes you have attitudes such as yours and Saundra then I'm frightened. It takes a lot more than being aware- when you have no understanding of what you are aware of- what good is it to be aware? And why is it that whites always have to dictate how the message comes across?? Are my remarks the truth? If it isn't wrapped up pretty and said in the way you want it to be said- then the person who delivers the message is a stark raving looney (right Saundra?) That was Malcolm's problem right? The man spoke the truth, but he was too "angry" in his delivery- even when he toned down, he still made whites (and some blacks) uncomfortable.

I take real issue with people pretending that they know about a subject, when they really don't. I have never nor would I ever pretend to know about something that I don't know about. Racism strikes a chord with some whites I believe because they feel guilt and shame and they don't like being reminded of the fact that their race has and continues to treat people so shitty.

To All That I HAve Offended:

I humbly and with mercy apologize- I take this issue very serious because it is so inherently wrong. Excuse me for making anyone feel anger or discomfort. I speak often from my heart and not my head- so that is something I will continue to work on. :)

[Bev Stapleton]

Firstly, mickey/lynn, let me apologise for that 'reading comprehension' remark. In the context of what you have said since I can see why it might have seemed insulting. I was not intending to suggest anything about your reading ability. It was merely a euphemism for your not having taken in what we were discussing and taking off on your own agenda.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting you are a lunatic.

What I am saying is that when your opening salvoes in a thread are to accuse others of not knowing what they are talking about then you are making a debate almost impossible. You've moved the thread from a developing exchange of views to a straight put-down of those who disagree with you. Arguing the point becomes impossible because the debate has got fouled up in personal abuse.

Now we are both dealing in speculation here but I think you are very wrong in assuming most people who post here know nothing about black history. Given the nature of what this board is about - a music created and developed by mainly black musicians until quite recently - then I would imagine there would also be a general awareness.

If we follow your advice and all shut up about discussing things we have no direct experience of, well...we'll not be left with much. Most of arn't musicians so we'd better not talk about music. The politics section should certainly be shut down! And I never fought in the Second Waorld War so how dare I comment on it, let alone teach children about it!

*************

I can assure you that I am not disagreeing with you because you are black. As I have already pointed out, I did not realise that until a few posts back.

I have disagreed with you on two threads because I don't agree with the points you make. As happens scores a time a day on this board with very few fireworks.

************

I'm interested in this line.

If being aware makes you have attitudes such as yours and Saundra then I'm frightened.

Could you spell out what those 'attitudes' are?

[Saundra Hummer]

I could go into discrimination in a whole different light, one that is different than racial discrimination, but discrimination. Discrimination so severe, that more often than not, jobs aren't available for anyone, not with any enthnic group, not even with your own race. Friendships are hard, even within your own race. No one in this discriminated against group has been beaten, or hanged, but the total discrimination and ostracizing from society in general is just as severe, even worse as there isn't a section of society that this group of people fit in with, unless people are enlightened. I could ask you if you had ever studied about these issues or spoken up and tried to better their lot? I would believe that of course you haven't.

I feel no guilt for anyones past sins or acts, I feel a deep sadness that anyone would do such things to any race or ethnic group because of their misguided views. Guilt? Hardly.

Grouping us all together in to a niche is not something that should done by you, it looks like reverse discrimination. The continued outrage against anyone else having a thought that might disagree with yours is odd to me, so if you think that I believe you are acting with lunacy, that is your interpertation, your own accessment.

If by your historical references you believe another revolution is coming and coming on a larger scale, that very well could be. I hope not, but I remember both of the riots in Los Angeles. I met the mother of the fellow who who almost killed the truck driver by smashing in his face and head, a most violent and sickening act, an embittered act, and I saw a little of her bitterness, she told of the helecopters flying over their house at all hours, how they, she and her sons friends couldn't sit out on the porch in a group without the police harrassing them at their own home. Bitterness that was warranted? Perhaps, but look where it led her son. She was telling me of all of this about 3 years before the riots.

Have you ever studied the history of other discriminations in our society, have you ever looked into how it is that other peoples have endured the discriminations that you feel are yours alone?

I grew up in southern California, and I have seen the strides that all ethnic groups have made there, and it is a good thing, I know that there are people that do discriminate everywhere, but for the most part great improvements have been made. I know that it hasn't been an easy road, but we here on this board are being saddled with your thinking that we are the culprits, and I just feel that is far from the truth.

Andy is trying to soothe your feelings of outrage, Bev is trying to explain, me, I just don't like to be accused of something that is far from the truth, and if I believe that your posts sound bitter, then I don't think that I am alone here, they do, and I stand by my remarks, they do, and I can even see why you would be, but to bring up such emotions on almost every post, bring race into every issue, is somehow missing the point here. We, I am sure are not racists, or for the most part, although I can't speak for everyone. I just feel that your comments are more racist than any others that I have seen on this board, and why? Why would you feel the need to bring up racism on almost every post?

I realize that you live it everyday, as this is what you tell us, or at least you sincerely feel that you do. I have been around a lot of blacks in California, and I didn't see it very often. I really didn't, but then I was around a lot of highly trained professionals, doctors and lawyers, and musicians, so I just didn't see it. Maybe I wasn't looking for it, because I just didn't think about race, Could this be the reason, or has racism become much worse since I was growing up and a young adult down there?

I truly am amazed by your contempt for other people on this board, If you are looking for discrimination, then maybe you do see it around every corner, but look around, you aren't the only woman, or black, or human being, to be discriminated against. I believe that you are discriminating against a lot of people here on this board in the same way that you believe has been your lot.

We can't change your thoughts or beliefs, any more than you can change ours, but it can't be a plesant thing for you to have such feelings on a consistant daily basis, it is destructive, not to us, but to you. I stand by my feelings that you sound bitter, you really do, look back at your posts, and take as hard a look at your self, as hard a look as you have taken of us.

[Andy D]

Atzmon's argument, or at least one of them, is that the Palistinian cause has not been articulated enough, or at least the dominant narrative is that of Israel and it's supporters. Now we can debate this position, but in the end as I suggested in an earlier post, we will find that there are many different narratives and non of them is more correct than another.

mickey/lynn, Bev, Saundra, me etc all hold different perspectives, that will be based on our experiences, education, family etc etc. What I 'hear' in what mickey/lynn writes about, is a person who has had experiences that many in the US do not have, bacause they are not black. The effects of rasicm, both covert and overt are deeply rooted in American society and in many other parts of the world.

Here in England, and Bev may be able to comment on this, there is little teaching on the history of black and ethnic minorities, and the contributions these communities have made to our society. What we tend to get is one view of history, the history of my country is not about the great battles, the empire etc but about the ordinary person in the street, the contribution of 'working-class' communities, living in poor conditions to what we are today.

The history of England is about the use of slaves to fuel the empire, of exploitation, abuse, murder etc etc. As we expect the German's for example ,to come to terms with what 'ordinary Germans did during the Nazi period, we need to come to terms to what the English did in Ireland, in Africa etc etc. Atzmon's position is that the Palistinians have a story to tell, and that this needs to be listened to, to be validated and respected.

Regards

Andy D.

[Saundra Hummer]

Hi Andy!

We all have stories to tell, you being Irish could probably have some things about your physche that could be involving your thought processes to this day regardless of when your ancestors or you ended up living in England.

I have so many different roots in my background, French, Scot, German, Irish, and American Indian. There are probably more races there but these are the main ones. I know that my parents attitudes about a lot of things come from their European backgrounds, as my father being Irish and German was totally against the Catholic Church, I mean totally, which surprised me when I was old enough to realize what was going on. My best friends were Catholic, and Jewish, so it seemed to me that he was wrong about the Catholics, and his being German, I am happpy to say that he was all for the Jewish people, another surprise, and a happy one. I am not talking religon here but preset ideas and emotions that stem from our inherited backgrounds.

Rich's grandmother kept her Indian blood a secret untill the day she died, as they were killing Indians for their land in California when she was a girl.

I grew up with so many different races that I looked on all of them equally, infact I was drawn to the dark skinned children at school, as I thought that they were just beautiful, and still do.

I don't remember any of them feeling looked down on because of their respective races. They were well adjusted and happy people for the most part.

If any of us go looking for injustices they are there, if we choose to try to make differences in peoples lives, that oportunity is there, but an in your face, accusatory approach with people who are not against anyone, much less M/L, isn't gong to accomp[lish much. It might rally a few like minded people to her way of thinking, but with most, it will just alianate, but then M/L could say she was right.

It isn't about who's right and wrong here, who is a racist and who isn't. It's about how we perceive what is right and wrong. A blame game isn't the way to go if one truly would like to see harmony, nor is living in the past, although we do need to know our history so as not to repeat it's mistakes.

[Bev Stapleton]

Andy,

The strange thing is that I suspect that all of us involved in this debate would be in agreement with Atzmon's perspective on the situation in Palestine. No-one is criticising his viewpoint.

**********

I think you'll find there's more teaching of black history than you think. One of the requirements of the National Curriculum is that all 11-14 year olds study a non-European civilisation for about a term. Multiculturalism is also a key focus in history teaching. Similarly social and labour history (one of my pet areas of teaching is the radicalism of the English Civil War). And in my experience most history teachers these days are centre to left inclined. It tends to be a major reason why we're doing this!

There are very loud pressure groups who would have us doing Nelson and Wellington (watch the press every time history teaching makes the news - "90% of 12 year olds don't know who Queen Victoria is horror!") but we've found our way round that (when the Tories brought in the NC they made a study of our Empire mandatory. They were thinking 'Let the children enjoy our glorious past.' Most history teachers turned it into a study of the slave trade!)!

The GCSE syllabus I teach - one of the most popular in the country - includes the History of Medicine (with some intriguing multicultural dimensions) and a Modern World Study. I choose to do the option looking at the origins of the Irish Troubles (English Troubles???) but another option there is the Arab-Israeli Conflict.

I don't know if kings and battles is still the norm in the private sector; but we've come a long way in the real education sector (whoops! prejudices showing!) since I was at school!

************

I agree entirely about your points about different perspectives - its the thing that makes history fascinating.

But if we're going to learn to get past any situation of conflict then we've got to try to understand those perspectives that are different from our own, even if in the end we still disagree with them.

This has to start with listening.

I hear what mickey/lynn is saying and accept totally that her understanding of what it is like to be black in America is going to be many, many times deeper than mine.

But that does not mean that her conclusions about the situation will necessarily be right. Being close to a situation is as likely to lead to distortion as being distant.

I'm sure Ian Paisley has a greater understanding of the situation in Ulster than I do. But I'd still dispute his interpretation of events!

[Saundra Hummer]

Hello Everyone!

There are those of us when given lemons, make lemonade, there are those of us that when a glass is half full, see it that way, not half empty. Oversimplifications but a fact. Different ones of us see things differently, from a different perspective. Not all of us see things as so bad in this world, and I don't believe we are sticking our heads in the sand.

There is much that is good around us, it is just that there are those who are so inolved with their own personal agenda's that they make it difficult for a lot of us, whether it is the corporate movers and shakers, our governments or our next door neighbors.

We do have to be dilligent and work to better our lot, I myself, work at being kind to those I come in contact with, speak up when I see an injustice being commited, to the point of endangering my own safety at times. Let me tell you about the Mexican Taxi Cab War and bullet holes all over several cabs that I was involved with at one time, back in 1960, in Tiajuana Mexico.

It would be easy to become overcome with radical feelings, but I work very hard not to let that happen and for the most part, I feel that I have suceeded in that effort, ha!

[mickey/lynn]

Saundra

Does the term "Open mouth, insert foot" ring a bell with you?
You write "I don't remember them feeling looked down upon because of their race". What were they to do? Come to Saundra and tell her how they felt? Do you honestly believe, because they did not feel compelled to verbalize to YOU their feelings, that none of them ever felt looked down upon? Or, you wrote, you hang out with a lot of black dr's, muscians and "highly trained" profesionals, and YOU just didn't see "it". So because you didn't "see it" does that mean it wasn't happening? You make yourself sound really naive. Sometimes when I read your comments, on anything, I get a headache. You speak in circles. Then all of these backgrounds you speak of blah, blah,blah...the one thing that you could do that I could never do, is just say you're white. I am black, nothing will change that, all the bleach in the world could not cover that up, NOT that I would ever want to mind you, but so many of you who make comments like that really get on my nerves. You can always mingle in with WASP's if you wanted to, I can't. Nothing else you wrote is worth addresing, like I stated, you give me a headache SO many words, and hardly anything makes sense. Seriously, how can you, if you truly read anything I wrote, how can you still try to paint this hateful, violent picture of me? Then the remark about a revoultion starting? What are you talking about? The Nat Turner statement? What I wrote, you took from that that I am talking about a revoultion starting? Two words for you--- POOF! BEGONE!!!

Bev,

I would like to call a truce. Some of your latest comments, I have digested and they make sense to me, you seem to be coming around to MY way of thinking! (haha) Seriously, I can agree to disagree with you and I feel that you are really trying to understand what I am saying, instead of just writing me off as some hateful crazie. That makes a tremendous difference!! Fine if you don't agree, but at least you are making an effort to exchange meaningful dialouge on the subject. I have no patience for people like Saundra, sorry if that's blunt, but I don't. She's not even trying to understand, you can see that based on some of her comments. Besides that, I have a lot of respect for teachers. When I was a child growing up, my teachers were the adults in my life who taught me the most and showed me a lot of love and concern (white and black teachers!). What I take away from this is that you really did digest what I was writing-even if you didn't agree- you still took the time to try and understand. AND...your apology is accepted. :)

[Saundra Hummer]

I have stated what and who I am, I have not cried in my beer over the problems that have beset me. If you feel I am talking in circles, you need to go back over what it is I have written.

I have never used the term "hang out."
I have never said the word lunacy until you brought it into play.

It is that when every thought that comes from someone with the attitude that you are displaying here seems so full of anger and what I perceive to be bitterness, how is it that you would ever fit in?

If I am not in the mood to patronize you, then that is just me.

Is this plain enough?

[clave]

Snoutinator said: The tune in question is Naomi Shermer's '67 Six Day War anthem "Jerusalem of Gold," which Atzmon reprises as "Al-Quds," literally "the holy," the Arabic name for Jerusalem. That's an about face if you ever heard one.

My best guess is that it's the song "Al-Quds al Atika" (Jerusalem in My Heart) by Lebanese pop diva Fairuz, from the album Jerusalem in My Heart. http://www.fairouz.com/fairouz/articles/arjimh.html

A monster hit in Lebanon and, I guess, among Palestinians. (FYI, Fairuz has one of the most beautiful voices I've ever heard -- you might want to check out some of her better CDs... this is one of them.)

[clave]

Al-Quds again...

Oops; should've looked more carefully at the liners/a story Beirut's Daily Star. The new lyrics on Atzmon's CD are by singer Reem Kelani.

[fent99]

Couldn't get to the gig but apparently Gilad played a set with the Blockheads on Monday at the Jazz Cafe.
Gonna try to catch him later in the month...

[Andy D]

I tried to catch him in Buxton, but alas I missed him, by all accounts it was a good gig.

Regards

Andy D.

[bubber]

I just saw him on TV here in Norway - different people were interviewed on politics in the arts, so Atzmon was talking for the most part, just a couple of minutes music from his band.

[Katzman]

I have seen Atzmon quite a few times. The man can play (understatement). He's got it all. I also agree totaly with his views on Israel. There are many Isralis that feal the same, that are ashamed of their countries actions but are given no voice, and I have to say it is ashame that such views (which are really more widespread within Israel that many might realise) have to rely on the poor distribution of a Jazz CD, this stuff should be in the news, world leaders should speak up, the media should develope a fashion for these issues.

Every now and then I emerge from my musical safe haven ..."of jazz and cocktails".... and find this world an increasingly distubing place. If only Osama played tenor, Bush worked for Blue Note (as an intern) and Sharron designed album covers.

I've just read through this thread and needless to say it was a very entertaining read, real drama in the electronic pages of time. To all you involved in the above skirmishes, I agree with all you, you are all right, or at least justified in your coments, but the style of your writings are probably prone to mutual misunderstandings, because they are comming out of different socioties. From England to Detroit to the West Coast there is bound to be different, regional, dialects, litanys, etc. However, assuming that Detroit has probably got the lowest standard of quality of life, perticularly if you are black living in the city, I think we all owe it to mickey/lynn to to give her a bit of a break. Her passionate manner of writing is poetry to me and comes as a welcome break from the carefully crafted academic use of the english laugage that so dominates most posts in most threads (ah...well). Mickey/lynn I hope you are a musician because I know your music would be good.


P.S. I hope I haven't offended anyone:)

[bubber]

Not me. I'm a Norwegian:cool:

[Katzman]

I am half Norwiegian, on my mothers side, I have family in Asker and Oslo.:)

[Andy D]

Katzman.

Each of us have our own history, a particular context in which we live, a narrative that we share with others and so on. The problems begin to arise when this narrative, this history is ignored or devalued or worse still ignored an oppressed. These are some of the themes that Atzmon is attempting to explore in his music.

There are many narratives in this world, and non has more justification more, more validity or more right than any other.

Regards

Andy D.

[Katzman]

Andy D,

I couldn't agree more. Its the authenticity of the subjective.