Mosaic and me

[Philip]

This thread is started in response to the debate about Mosaic catalog dispatch policy on the BNBB. The issue was whether what amounts to the cost cutting would, in the end, reduce the companies turnover and viability. It turns out that the most recent catalog was sent to lapsed customers as a one off. Well not having bought a set for three years that clearly included me; I received the catalog in the mail this morning, and placed a new order this evening. So it's obvious what effect has been on this enthusiast.

With the $:euro and $:£ exchange rate currently in the favor of "old Europe" and Airstrip #51 and some of the sets in the catalog nearing the end of the license/edition, I've chosen to restart my habit. In the last three years, a preoccupation with Japanese pressings has developed, which has helped me fill some long standing gaps (Dick Twardzik and two early Bengt Hallberg albums), but the most irresistibls discs are now at hand, so Mosiac can have my custom again. Sorry, no Capitol boycotts from me; not exactly South Africa under Apartheid, even if some of the forums have received banning orders.

Looking forward to the Atlantic New Orleans, Hodges, Columbia Piano Moods (yes, I am a bit of a Piano nut) arriving in afew days time. Ofcause the problem with Mosaic is that I'm more aware of many of the sets not coming out of storage all that often.

I am aware that I've become more short and pithy on the Blue Note Board as time has gone on; this is me on full power!

[AfricaBrass]

I hope you enjoy your new sets. I don't think you'll go wrong with any of the sets you purchased. I can't believe that I haven't picked up the Hodges yet. I did listen to a friend's copy, that is some great stuff.

One thing that I did that has really helped me to listen to my Mosaic sets has been to convert them to mp3 so I can listen to them while I'm on the computer. Right now I have on an mp3 disc which has the complete Andrew Hill and Sam Rivers sets.

I'm out of the Mosaic game right now due to a wife and child. It's a drag being poor. I can't even afford a Mosaic Select set right now.

[OUT2LUNCH]

You've listed three outstanding Mosaic sets and I hope you enjoy them. Political issues aside, Mosaic is the standard for Box set collections and I for one, have no intention of boycotting their products! Long Live Mosaic Records!!!

[WestCoast Ghost]

Yes, boycotting Mosaic and Blue Note products because of the corporate crap that went down at the BN board would be pretty foolish. We all still love jazz, and we want great jazz to continue to come out, whether it's Bunny Berigan/Paul Chambers re-issues or Jason Moran's latest.
Having picked up quite a few Mosaics, I sometimes practically forget certain sets, and then "re-discover" them a couple of years later. Some, like the McLean, Hill, & Jacquet sets, I played into
the ground in the first few months after I got them... and I still play them once or twice a year. Others, like the Kenton set, I return to less often (I actually listen to the KENTON PRESENTS set more than I do the KENTON 43-47). The Ellington Reprise has been a particular favorite ever since I got it, and the HRS/Capitol sets bear repeated listenings... Hell, I'm hooked bad. What I really haven't been able to get enough of lately are the two Mosaic Selects, esp. the Carmell Jones, as I had never heard any of that material before. Still waiting/hoping for the Tyner Blue Note, the Mulligan Concert Jazz Band, and (if I'm really going to dream big) the Keynote set that Universal has put the kibosh on for so long.

[OUT2LUNCH]

Ah the Mulligan Concert Band and Keynote Sets....I live for the day when those two sets are a reality, but I am sure they are worth the wait!!

[AfricaBrass]

I don't think it would be possible for me to boycott Mosaic. I'm waaaaaay too hooked. :)

[Jazzmoose]

I still say the Mosaic boycott is on...as soon as I pick up the seven or eight sets still on my list! Of course, the dirty lowdown dogs will probably release more cool stuff before then...

At least my Kenny G. boycott is still working!:D

[J Larsen]

I couldn't even bring myself to boycott Verve - forget about boycotting Mosaic. In any event, Mosaic is one of the most important "jazz preservation societies", if you will, on the planet. (Great, now I have that Kinks song in my head - "We are the jazzzz preservation society...") As was said above, not supporting them because a related business found it necessary to modify their BB policies is a little odd.

[Brad]

Boycott Mosaic? That doesn't make much sense to me. Support them is the way to keep it going. My personal favorites are the Mobley and the Stitt. I've been listening to the Parlan and his playing is quite fantastic.

Another great surprise has been the Desmond. I've had that one for a long time and never listened to it except for a couple of songs. Way underated and never gets the attention it deserves.

I always sing the praise of the HRS Recordings, pretty fantastic suff. It's always been our hope about the Keynote but like Tod, I wouldn't bet on it. I know Mosaic has tried but hasn't been successful. Good old Verve. Not!

[Mnytime]

Hey it wasn't that hard boycotting Verve when you consider every other release was a Comp or Ella reissue.

Verve has been on the upswing lately, especially in the more out styles of jazz. The recent Shepp and Ayler will soon be arriving. ;) At least there is someone at Verve these days who even knows who Ayler and Shepp are. ;)


While I can understand why anyone would want to Boycott Blue Note I don't see why they would do so with Mosaic. I really doubt anyone at Mosaic had anything to do with it. I also don't think Michael Cuscuna would be stupid enough to agree to something as stupid as what Blue Note did.

I have way to many Mosaics to stop now. Though there are some I pass on like the Turrentine, which I heard nothing but bad reviews about McMaster's remastering.

[J Larsen]

Originally posted by Mnytime
Verve has been on the upswing lately, especially in the more out styles of jazz. The recent Shepp and Ayler will soon be arriving. ;) At least there is someone at Verve these days who even knows who Ayler and Shepp are. ;)


Actually, I think it may be more likely that NO ONE at Verve knows who Ayler and Shepp are - if they did, they might not be releasing the albums! Someone likely saw that they had been sitting around ready for release for two years and figured someone had effed up!

Seriously though, these reissues are encouraging, as were the semi-recent Sam Rivers and Cecil Taylor reissues they did.

You're right that it wouldn't have been hard to boycott Verve with all the Ella comps, but I was seriously behind on my VMEs. I stayed away from them for a long time because they were so overpriced. Once I found a good online source and once BMG started carrying lots of them, I began stocking up.

[shawn·m]

Boycotting Mosaic because of an automated mailing policy seems just plain silly. Although, I’ll support a boycott on Definative’s Mosaic knockoffs!

By the way, the Hodges Mosaics are great. For anyone not familiar with Rabbit’s solo work, imagine Ellington’s star player free to do as he pleases.

[clandy44]

Why boycott Mosaic? It's BN that did this (and did it badly by having some low level type simply pass out disingenous garbage about why the BNBB was being taken down by half), and while I won't boycott BN, I have every intention of reducing my purchases of their product. I'm listening right now to disc 1 of the Quebec/Hardee and thanking my stars that Mosaic is alive and kicking. I must say that the news that Mosaic had to let the 2 women in the office go is troubling-for one thing, Scott will have to do more of the admin duties, which explains why the long awaited Berigan is not here and not even on the horizon. And I most definitely won't be patronizing the rip off labels.

[shawn·m]

clandy, there’s two somewhat separate issues happening at the same time:

A) Boycott Mosaic because they didn’t automatically send a printed catalog.

B) Boycott Blue Note because they’re revamping the board.

Although posting here may weaken my case, I think both reactions are wildly over the top.

[BeRiGaN]

Originally posted by clandy44
Why boycott Mosaic? It's BN that did this (and did it badly by having some low level type simply pass out disingenous garbage about why the BNBB was being taken down by half), and while I won't boycott BN, I have every intention of reducing my purchases of their product. I'm listening right now to disc 1 of the Quebec/Hardee and thanking my stars that Mosaic is alive and kicking. I must say that the news that Mosaic had to let the 2 women in the office go is troubling-for one thing, Scott will have to do more of the admin duties, which explains why the long awaited Berigan is not here and not even on the horizon. And I most definitely won't be patronizing the rip off labels.
Huh What? No Bunny even on the Horizon????????????????
Waaaahhhhhh!!!!!
Damn, my luck is bad!!!
I talk tough on the "other" board cuz I want someone to think they are losing $600+ annually by their callousness...I may boycott bluenote, but would still like to give money to Mosaic...where is the annual March 10% off sale? Don't they want to increase sales, if they have to lay off a couple of ladies? Can't Norah toss a few bucks their way?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I talked to Michael Cuscuna about the goings-on at the Blue Note board and he knew about it and he also knew that it had created an uproar. However, even he said "something had to be done." Mosaic was even getting a lot of complaints simply because Blue Note's bulletin board has a "Mosaic" forum. Remember, just a few weeks back, someone posted on the "Offering and Looking For" forum that beautiful thread "Looking for CD-Rs of the Donald Byrd Mosaic"! Just brilliant... right on the Blue Note board. I was wondering why it took Blue Note so long to can that forum given that this post wasn't the first to openly discuss ripping off Blue Note (and Mosaic).

Also, I hope people realize that a majority of the posters to the BN BBS were men. A lot of the talk that went on there, while not exactly "sexist", could (and most definitely did) turn off most women. Am I the only one who remembers that Norah Jones herself posted a couple of times on the board (prior to her ascension to fame)? Don't you remember how Aric Effron then posted how he heard that "chick singers like to gang-bang the band"? When several people jumped all over that, the general consensus from the board seemed to be, "What, no harm in talking about sex, it's part of life." They never even considered that this kind of talk might be offensive to women.

The Miscellaneous - Politics forum seemed to get even worse about a month ago. Posting pictures of semi-clad women?? How on earth did anyone think that BN would somehow "go" for this? I bet even All About Jazz would rip those down pretty quick. Blue Note does own that board and as such are legally responsible for what's on it. If it could be proved in court that they knew offensive material was on their board and they did nothing about it, the could get into trouble. Now obviously nothing was that bad BUT, it was certainly bad enough to, 1) Send a lot of offended posters away and 2) Generate a LOT of complaints to both Blue Note & Mosaic.

So, let's continue to support Mosaic but not because of anything that happened on the Blue Note bulletin board but because they put out some awesome music... music we couldn't get otherwise.

End of rant,
Kevin

[Aggie87]

I agree with most of your comments, Kevin. I would suggest however, that BN seems to be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Seems like they could bring back ALL of the forums, and post some guidelines as to what THEY consider acceptable/unacceptable. Threads such as the CDr trades (which I agree were WAY out of line), scantily clad women, and perhaps even the political threads could then be determined to be out-of-line. As it is there's really been no communication about where those parameters were, from BN's standpoint.

With volunteer moderators for the Offering/Looking For forum and the Misc forums, it seems like things could have been kept under control for the most part.

Just my 2 Euro cents worth...

-Erik

[shawn·m]

Originally posted by Kevin Bresnahan
Remember, just a few weeks back, someone posted on the "Offering and Looking For" forum that beautiful thread "Looking for CD-Rs of the Donald Byrd Mosaic"!

Not to lessen Blue Note’s other concerns, but asking for bootleg CD-Rs of in-print licensed Blue Note material (on Blue Note’s bulletin board, fer pete’s sake) was difficult to accept. But getting an earnest response still blows me away.

[clandy44]

I have no intention of boycotting Mosaic or BN, for that matter, over anything, including the BB brouhaha. I never visited the Misc non-music forum because I knew there would be statements that offended some part of me (political,etc.) and I didn't want to get into overheated discussions about them. Nor did I did I care for the way in which some posters made rude, derogatory comments about other posters or some of the stupid pictures/posts that were made.

But, if you are going to host a BB, you need to figure out the rules you intend to impose and then announce and enforce them. BN did not do this. Taking the board down by half will not solve the "problems" either as posters will simply post anything they want in the remaining categories, whether the topics fit or not. Fact is, there was a strong community of interest among posters and lurkers alike on the BNBB, and that has been crippled if not destroyed. As some tritely note, you aren't going to be able to get the toothpaste back in the tube now.

What we see here is a collision between non-commercial, protected free speech and the desire/need of a commercial enterprise which owns the forum to restrict that speech. We can not not object to BN wanting to do so, but we can object to how they do it, when they do it and the way in which they do it when everyone acknowledges that it has no chance to work (see an "Offering and Looking For" post in Mosaic in the BNBB). It feels like the nest has been fouled and I'm not especially optimistic that it will ever feel like home again for me.

[Brad]

There's no doubt that it needed to be cleaned up. I had been advocating for a while getting rid of that Miscellaneous Board. Heck, I even got emails supporting me there.

Yes, we're to blame but BN is not free of guilt here either. Had they policed the situation sooner, we wouldn't be in this position today. And they've gone to extreme measures.

As far as boycotting BN, I don't think so. I distinguish between the Board and the records. I'm not going to cheat myself of that. Boycott the Board? By doing what they've done, management has done that for us.

[desertblues]

What Brad said...;)

why would anyone want to boycott the music?:(

[AfricaBrass]

I also agree that something needed to be done at the BNBB. It was getting out of hand. But, BN left the board unattended. If you don't take care of your yard, you're going to get weeds. That's what happened. When you get weeds in your yard, you don't throw a hand grenade at it. You weed it.

My only issue was with how they handled it. I know there had to have been frustration on their part towards some posters, but the tone they took with us was insulting. It's not like were in grade-school and they were taking our toys away from us.

As for trading cdrs of in-print titles, they should have warned or banned that member. That would stop that kind of activity if every time someone pulled a stunt like that, they'd suffer the consequences. I've made and received cds of out of print titles from and for friends, but our cardinal rule has been not to trade stuff that is in print. We feel like it's stealing. In the past, if Blue Note reissues a title that I already have on cdr, I buy it. I've done it every time.

I'm sure they have nothing to worry about as far as boycotting goes. We all love Blue Note and Mosaic. I think they'll probably hurt themselves in the fact that they might not have as many potential customers hanging around their board waiting for every little morsal to drop. I'm sure most of us will be checking in to see what's up with Blue Note.

I just wish they had handled it differently.

[John Tapscott]

I agree with what just about everyone's saying. The BNBB had gone over the top with a couple of the forums/threads, but why didn't they just delete those and leave the rest? In the long run, Blue Note is hurting themselves, especially after Norah leaves for bigger and greener pastures.
In any case, I sure won't be boycotting Mosaic, but my Blue Note purchases will no doubt fall off. Part of the joy of buying a Conn or an RVG was not just listening to the music, but also reading and joining the Board discussion about it We can do that here for sure, but BN CD's won't catch my attention in the store quite as readily anymore. And if I have to choose between a BN CD and a CD on another label, I'm not quite as likely to choose the BN now.

[riverrat]

I agree with most of what has been said here.

My main motives by far for visiting the BNBB were to learn more about jazz, and once in a great while share some information that might be of use to others.

I posted on the political threads once in awhile, and when doing so tried to be reasonable and did not personally attack anyone. But I generally avoided mixing it up there as it didn't really seem too useful on a forum ostensibly aimed at jazz. It also did seem to get personal and petty sometimes, and I agree that Blue Note had a pretty excuse if they wanted to reign in or phase out the political threads.

While granting that some house-cleaning was perhaps in order, the way this was handled was hamfisted, rude and ultimately stupid, IMO. For me, the main issue is that I will probably remain ignorant, or unsure of Blue Note sessions that I otherwise might buy. This is not a conscious boycott, but the effect will surely be fewer purchases of Blue Note product by me.

Typically, I might see reference to a session or artist I was unfamiliar with on the BNBB or elsewhere on the web, then conduct a "Search All Open Forums" on the BNBB with the title name. It took awhile, but it was common for a dozen or more posts to come up, some several years old, even for relatively obscure titles. I could then read through these and decide whether or not the title was for me.

I'm not sure if this is still possible. It has been stated that the forums have not been deleted, just made invisible to new visitors. Perhaps they can still be searched. If not, I will really miss having access to this searchable resource.

[David Ayers]

Let's face it - WE were totally happy over there - but THEY werent happy with US.

[RDK]

Is it possible for Mosaic to set up a Mosaic Forum on their site?

Or would it be better to simply have a non-company-sponsored one here (for example)? :D

[desertblues]

Originally posted by RDK
Is it possible for Mosaic to set up a Mosaic Forum on their site?

Or would it be better to simply have a non-company-sponsored one here (for example)? :D

Good question. Maybe we are better off here-I really would miss that one. The discussions have been quite helpful.

[PDEE]

Seems to me this thread has started it sure all the comments will be under one heading, but the information shouldn't change.

[Ed Swinnich]

Those political threads and the nearly naked women were way over the top. The miscellaneous thread was approaching anarchy. The CDR issue was a particularly sore point with me. They had to do something and am glad they did. The way they went about it in purge -like fashion was quite distasteful to me. I wonder if someday The Red Menace might not want to jump in and relate some of his purge stories and his coping strategies. :eek:

I went to the BNBB discuss jazz - mostly Blue Note and Mosaic - and dropped thousands of dollars buying their products. Too bad they chose to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Poor customer relations, IMO. Very poor.

I'm not boycotting anything though.

[Johnj]

Like others, I love the Mosaic boxes and am always on the lookout in the used CD stores of Tokyo (which are great). I picked up the Hodges new at HMV Tokyo in their January sale, I was kind of surprised they had it. Also, I think it is worth pointing out that there still is a Mosaic forum on the BN Board and the search function is operating as before if anyone needs recommendations.

[RDK]

Yeah, John, the Mosaic Forum remains at Blue Note. I forgot for a minute that it didn't get cut. (Though I think it may have been gone briefly.) Forget my earlier statement. :o

[OUT2LUNCH]

RDK is correct. They did eliminate it for a few hours and then brought it back. After all, EMI which owns Blue Note also owns a piece of Mosaic. Seeing that they are now strictly enforcing discussions revolving around their products solely, it was prudent for them for re-instate the Mosaic Forum.

[Fran]

Originally posted by Aggie87
I agree with most of your comments, Kevin. I would suggest however, that BN seems to be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Seems like they could bring back ALL of the forums, and post some guidelines as to what THEY consider acceptable/unacceptable. Threads such as the CDr trades (which I agree were WAY out of line), scantily clad women, and perhaps even the political threads could then be determined to be out-of-line. As it is there's really been no communication about where those parameters were, from BN's standpoint.

With volunteer moderators for the Offering/Looking For forum and the Misc forums, it seems like things could have been kept under control for the most part.

Just my 2 Euro cents worth...

-Erik

I agree with most of this. It was TOO radical a move, and as others have said very direspectful of the 99% of us who did a pretty fair job of keeping the board on a straight course. We all had a lot invested in it. Which THEY never gave a hoot about. There was nothing wrong with the banning of Aric and the immediate removal of obnoxious threads that popped up ocassionally. Someone always pointed out the culprit and he and his post always went byebye.I don't fault Michael , but I will definitely spend my bucks elsewhere since I can't afford everything that is released each year anyway.

[PDEE]

Yeah but how about the " Fuck" in Caldonia????


Glad you're here

[Rocket #9]

Originally posted by Kevin Bresnahan
Mosaic was even getting a lot of complaints simply because Blue Note's bulletin board has a "Mosaic" forum.

Good to see you here, Kevin.

Exactly what kind of complaints was Mosaic getting? Your post implies that there were problems other than the CDR issue. If so, what?

I agree with most of your points, but it's this sort of mystery that is so frustrating regarding the BNBB changes. Can't someone just make a clear statement about what's going on, and why?

[David Ayers]

I think we need to put all of this behind us and get on with the new board.

It is pretty clear that Blue Note has decided it doesn't want us. I am not saying that out of haste or anger - I am just looking at the tone of what was done and the actual changes.

The only problem we've got here is that we no longer have the Blue Note site to act as a draw to new members. if we want to keep going here we will need to think about how to enable people to find us. That is a longer term issue, but we WILL need to think about it if we don't want to dwindle.

[shawn·m]

Yeah, Blue Note opened the door and it was the room’s contents that kept people interested. But look at the last year or so. BNBB membership was fast increasing during a time when jazz sales were/are in the dumper. I wonder if that has more to do with the atmosphere rather than the label itself? Maybe the site will recover, I hope it does. But for now, it looks like one brutal uphill battle, and folks will keep looking for the best fit —big label name or no.

You may be right, David. But a dwindling membership may be a factor a long Tom… er, time away.

[jazzhound]

It is disappointing to learn Michael Cuscuna went along with the destruction of the BNBB bullletin board.
Members of the board were a group of people that were strong supporters of his productions at Blue Note and Mosaic not withstanding total lack of quality control in the RVG series, rising prices at Mosaic, the dropping of vinyl by Mosaic, and a pitiful number of Blue Note releases in the U.Sl compared to Japan.
There was no justification for what Blue Note did. Mr. Cuscuna should have intervened on our behalf.

[Fran]

Originally posted by PDEE
Yeah but how about the " Fuck" in Caldonia????


Glad you're here

PD- I guess I am dense this morning. I don't get the "Caldonia" FxxK
remark pls explain.
thanks,
Fran

Now that I am somewhat adjusted to the cutting of our BNBB umbilical cord it appears to me that the big error on the boards part was to establish "Misc/Political/Sports etc". It took up a lot of time and energy, and to police it had to be the major chore of anyone who might have been watching. Probably frustrated the Boardmasters. They should have simply banned such totally extraneous subjects. Of course to make it work they would had to have hired a real, functioning boardmaster like Bo.
BO Where Are You !!!

[PDEE]

Good thing you're here Fran got to keep the Herd together.

On the original 78 issued take of Caldonia just after the Wall of trumpets Dave Tough dropped or broke a drum stick.. He yells F**K it 's on the record .. just before the band comes in again.

I always thought that it was funny that this record has been played for years on strictly censored radio stations like the BBC ( used to be)

Just a bit of Jazz ( Herman ) trivia

[shawn·m]

Originally posted by jazzhound
It is disappointing to learn Michael Cuscuna went along with the destruction of the BNBB bullletin board...Mr. Cuscuna should have intervened on our behalf.

Considering the bootleg Blue Note/Mosaic CD-R posting debacle, I simply can’t blame Cuscuna.

We joked about it some time ago, but now I wish Sngry had cobbled all his posts together as a book.