XRCD vs SACD vs 24 bit remasters

[jazzseeker]

1. Some of those XRCDs sound so good I wonder if SACD is much better. SACD is now cheaper!'

2. I have seen, on Amazon.com, several versions of some CDs, eg. Mercy,Mercy,Mercy that are available both in a standard CD, or a "japanese 24 bit remaster" at much greater expense (~$40). I have heard these are Japanese issued RGV editions. Is the difference in sound significant enough to justify the added expense? Are there RGV editions only issued in Japan? Any experience out there?

[jazzhound]

No 16 bit cd whether its XRCD, Jrvg ect. is worth more than 20 bucks. Most regular cds mastered recently are close enough to the fancy stuff in quality not to pay up. Some people have reported the domestic RVG's recently released are better than the Jap counterparts. I think there is enough stuff out there to buy at regular prices, so why pay thru the nose for maybe slightly better sound?
SACD is a whole other level. If you want the best sound in the cd realm that is the way to go.
Vinyl often provides the best value, as long as you don't buy first pressing Blue Notes!

[jazzseeker]

Vinyl sounds great if you have a top end rig, no doubt, but for the time being, I'm not going there.

I appreciate the comments re:16 bit cds, but I swear I think the XRCDs soung great, but pricey. The RVGs are great sounding and with those, XRCD is not needed. 24 bit remastering by a great recording man!

I have SACD and love the sound, but not enough releases yet

Also, some RVGs are not yet issued in the USA, like the Mercy, Mercy,Mercy.

[riverrat]

Assuming you are referring the Cannonball Adderley session, the Japanese version of Mercy x3 is available at Tower right now for only $14.99, about half of their regular price:

Adderley Cd at Tower (http://towermusic.endeca.com/towermusic?n=2146847436&act=M18&cc=USD&un=jrbehan@hotmail.com&sid=4E2B3E67803E)

[desertblues]

In general, I agree with the statement "no 16 bit cd is worth more than 20 bucks". Vinyl is almost always better sounding-and that goes for "medium end rigs" as well as "high end". You don't have to spend a fortune to do the turntable thing. As for cds, many prefer the TOCJ releases over the JRVG's for their closer-to-vinyl sound. But why settle for "close to vinyl" when you can have the real thing? Personally, I do like the convenience of cds but will always have a turntable too.

[jazzseeker]

What are TOCJ releases?

[riverrat]

The pros and cons of the various versions of Blue Note titles, including TOCJ releases, have been discussed ad nauseum on the BNBB. Perhaps people feel this topic has been beaten to death (a reasonable conclusion) which is why no one has responded to your query yet. Everything I know about these Japanese CD releases of mainly Blue Note titles I learned on the BNBB, and I will try to summarize; perhaps others will chime in, with corrections, additional comments, etc.

No one seems sure what "TOCJ" stands for, something like TOshiba Classic Jazz". They are Toshiba Japan releases.

I learned that among BNBB old-timers, TOCJ refers to Japanese CDs numbered in several series (1500, 1600, 4000, 4100, 4200) released starting around 1993 or 1994, and re-released sporadically to this day. They are 20-bit, except for the 4000 and 4100 series, which are 16-bit.

Many believe TOCJ's are the best sounding versions of Blue Note titles- they are very consistent in sound quality and typically exhibit a warm, "analoguey" type of sound. To my ears even the 16-bit ones sound much better than US Collector's Choice versions of the same titles, and also many of the 20-bit US Connoisseur Series.

To make matters more confusing, there is also a series referred to as "JRVG's", which also have TOCJ catalog numbers, the 9000 series. The JRVG terminology is used to differentiate them from the US RVG Blue Note series; until very recently the US and Japanese versions were different remasters.

JRVG's are 24-bit remasters in mini-lp cardboard sleeves. The consensus on these is that some of them sound great, others so-so, others pretty crappy. They seem to be quite inconsistent compared to TOCJ's.

If you care to hear more, here are some posts cut and pasted from one of the few remaining threads on the BNBB in which the pros and cons of various Blue Note reissues (including the Connoisseur series and the original US releases) were discussed:

Tony Jerant:

"...Now about various reissue programs:

The RVG's (US and Japanese) are all remastered by Rudy Van Gelder in 24 bit, but my understanding is that the original source tapes were definitely available to him for the U.S. versions but not always (ever?) for the Japanese. There are long threads about RVG's on the board that you can find using the "search" function. My ears tell me this is indeed so, as the Japanese RVG's generally do not sound as sonically detailed and "sharp," consistent with a less than first generation source.

For a given title, if there are both U.S. and Japanese versions, they are NOT the same remastering even though both are RVG's. The Japanese verions tend to have a lot less high end and dynamic range to my ears, and they are also typically done to simulate the way Rudy and the musicians heard the sessions in the studio, through a single monitor speaker (so they tend to have a "mono" sound to some, with the instruments all crowded toward the middle of the sound field, but with great immediacy and presence).

They sort of abandoned this approch, which I understand was one of the original ideas of the RVG series, for U.S. issue, with more traditional-sounding stereo soundfield but still the sound is less "expansive" than on some of the standard U.S. reissues (which to my ears are excessively panned sometimes) and TOCJ's. In short, the RVG's sacrifice a bit of expansiveness for greater immediacy and punch.

You'll get different opinions on which sound best re: RVG's. I personally think the U.S. versions are generally superior, but there are also fewer titles available so I have some of both. There were a few indisputible "lemons" in the Japanese RVG series, where something clearly went awry...Donald Byrd's OFF TO THE RACES for example sounds like it's coming from under layers of cheesecloth. You can review those old forums to find other examples. There was also a famous adverse sonic incident with the original pressing of the U.S. JUJU RVG; BN has now made a replacement pressing available (there's a thread on that, too).

TOCJ's are not remastered by Rudy (often for these no remastering engineer is credited). They sound generally good to me too, but different, and again often are not from the original master tapes according to people on this board more in the know than me (e.g. Chuck Nessa). I think that makes sense to my ears, also, because one reason a lot of people like the TOCJ is they have a slightly "warmer" sound...I suspect some have been dubbed from (pristine) vinyl. Personally, I'll take either a U.S. or Japanese RVG any day...much more "presence" and still a lot of bottom end, certainly not tinny if not quite as "warm" as a TOCJ jewel box.

As for "normal" U.S. Blue Notes...I think most sound really good and that some of the criticism of Ron McMaster (the one who remasters most of these) is unwarranted, but he does tend to be a bit inconsistent...sometimes his jobs tend to have a lot of harshness on the high end (e.g. the U.S. COMPLETE BLUE HOUR SESSIONS).

The original U.S. reissues (from the late 80's) sound quite a bit worse, but to my ears so did most CD's from that era - I don't think companies quite had the CD remastering and production process down yet, so things tend to sound dead and compressed. However, I must say that just last night I listened to the 1988 remastering of A.T.'S DELIGHT and was actually quite surprised at how good it sounded...I wonder sometimes if my "ears" haven't been suckered into "hearing" things that aren't there by all the hair splitting audio talk that you'll find on the board."

Claude:

"...My personal experience is that most of the post-1994 reissues remastered by McMaster (Connoisseur series and the regular Blue Notes) and the US/european RVGs sound good to excellent. RVGs are very dynamic and tend to sound different from the earlier releases, as far as frequency balance and stereo image is concerned. It is a matter of taster whether one prefers McMaster's or Van Gelder's approach.

Most japanese RVGs I have heard had an strange frequency balance that sounded completely unnatural. The only one I am satisfied with is "Basra".

The only series that sounds consistently good are the TOCJs. Even the older releases from the early 90's have a very neutral and clean sound."

riverrat:

"...I'll chime in here too. I have not been a jazz collector for nearly as long as Tony and probably not Claude, but I've monitored this board for a couple of years. As you can see from just the 2 previous posts, opinions vary on which are the best sounding remasters. Tony seems to prefer the US RVGs, Claude seems to prefer the TOCJ series.

I generally like the TOCJ's myself, but not in every case. I often buy the US version of a title (RVG or not) for a cheap, often used price. If I really like it, I opportunistically pick up Japanese versions if I find them for an affordable price.

But there are exceptions. The 20-bit TOCJ series are top choices for me, but the 4000 and 4100 series are only 16-bit. Even these sound better than their 16-bit US counterparts, but when the title is available as a domestic 24-bit RVG it becomes a tough choice. And the US RVG's are an unbeatable value.

Then there is the issue of extra tracks. TOCJ and JRVG titles don't contain extra tracks (with only a very few exceptions). The US versions often do. This doesn't matter much to me if the extra tracks are just alternate takes, but quite often they are original unreleased tracks which are great to have.

Finally, JRVGs are widely regarded to be somewhat inconsistent, while the TOCJ series is very consistent in quality. I have several JRVGs that sound EXCELLENT (Shorter "Night Dreamer", McLean "Demon's Dance", Byrd "Royal Flush", Silver "Tokyo Blues") but was not very happy with Lee Morgan "Cornbread"."

[Mnytime]

There are a several different remasterings these days. In my opinion in terms of CD the best would be the SACD and SACD Hybrid's.

In terms of XRCD there are several versions now.


XRCD24 Digital K2 24 Bit--the latest version
XRCD2 Digital K2 20 Bit
XRCD K2 20 Bit


Below that is the regular K2 20 Bits

Generally speaking most people seem to like the Japanese versions of all these to the US. Though with the Japanese you don't get any alt takes.

Oh yea, there is also a Japanese Digital K2 20 Bit that are not XRCDs.


Here is XRCD online site for more information.

XRCD Online Site (www.xrcd.com)

[grey]

Originally posted by Mnytime


Below that is the regular K2 20 Bits

Though with the Japanese you don't get any alt takes.

__________________________________________________ _

I believe that you do get alternate (and additional) takes.

For example:

VICJ 2081, 20 Bit K2, Bill Evans "New Jazz Conceptions"

Has alternate take of 'No Cover, No Minimum'

VICJ 2165, 20 Bit K2, Clark Terry "In Orbit"

Has additional track, not on LP of 'Flugelin The Blues'

[Mnytime]

Are you sure they are Japanese releases?

If they are than it is something new because none of my Japanese releases come with alt takes.

[grey]

Originally posted by Mnytime

Are you sure they are Japanese releases?

__________________________________________________

Yes, that's why I included the VICJ code.

The Bill Evans was released 96-7-13 by JVC, Tokyo, Japan.

The Clark Terry was released 96-11-27 by JVC, Tokyo, Japan.

I have many other titles in the series and most contain alternate and/or additional tracks.

[J.A.W.]

Grey's right. The Japanese Victor VICJ CDs do have the same alternates / extra tracks as the American Original Jazz Classics CDs.

By the way, according to Hiroshi Tanno "TOCJ" means "Toshiba CD, Jazz". Popular Toshiba releases have a "TOCP" prefix: "Toshiba CD, Popular".

[JohnBlutarski]

The pros and cons of the various versions of Blue Note titles, including TOCJ releases, have been discussed ad nauseum on the BNBB. Perhaps people feel this topic has been beaten to death (a reasonable conclusion) which is why no one has responded to your query yet. Everything I know about these Japanese CD releases of mainly Blue Note titles I learned on the BNBB, and I will try to summarize; perhaps others will chime in, with corrections, additional comments, etc.

No one seems sure what "TOCJ" stands for, something like TOshiba Classic Jazz". They are Toshiba Japan releases.

I learned that among BNBB old-timers, TOCJ refers to Japanese CDs numbered in several series (1500, 1600, 4000, 4100, 4200) released starting around 1993 or 1994, and re-released sporadically to this day. They are 20-bit, except for the 4000 and 4100 series, which are 16-bit.

Many believe TOCJ's are the best sounding versions of Blue Note titles- they are very consistent in sound quality and typically exhibit a warm, "analoguey" type of sound. To my ears even the 16-bit ones sound much better than US Collector's Choice versions of the same titles, and also many of the 20-bit US Connoisseur Series.

To make matters more confusing, there is also a series referred to as "JRVG's", which also have TOCJ catalog numbers, the 9000 series. The JRVG terminology is used to differentiate them from the US RVG Blue Note series; until very recently the US and Japanese versions were different remasters.

JRVG's are 24-bit remasters in mini-lp cardboard sleeves. The consensus on these is that some of them sound great, others so-so, others pretty crappy. They seem to be quite inconsistent compared to TOCJ's.

If you care to hear more, here are some posts cut and pasted from one of the few remaining threads on the BNBB in which the pros and cons of various Blue Note reissues (including the Connoisseur series and the original US releases) were discussed:

Tony Jerant:

"...Now about various reissue programs:

The RVG's (US and Japanese) are all remastered by Rudy Van Gelder in 24 bit, but my understanding is that the original source tapes were definitely available to him for the U.S. versions but not always (ever?) for the Japanese. There are long threads about RVG's on the board that you can find using the "search" function. My ears tell me this is indeed so, as the Japanese RVG's generally do not sound as sonically detailed and "sharp," consistent with a less than first generation source.

For a given title, if there are both U.S. and Japanese versions, they are NOT the same remastering even though both are RVG's. The Japanese verions tend to have a lot less high end and dynamic range to my ears, and they are also typically done to simulate the way Rudy and the musicians heard the sessions in the studio, through a single monitor speaker (so they tend to have a "mono" sound to some, with the instruments all crowded toward the middle of the sound field, but with great immediacy and presence).

They sort of abandoned this approch, which I understand was one of the original ideas of the RVG series, for U.S. issue, with more traditional-sounding stereo soundfield but still the sound is less "expansive" than on some of the standard U.S. reissues (which to my ears are excessively panned sometimes) and TOCJ's. In short, the RVG's sacrifice a bit of expansiveness for greater immediacy and punch.

You'll get different opinions on which sound best re: RVG's. I personally think the U.S. versions are generally superior, but there are also fewer titles available so I have some of both. There were a few indisputible "lemons" in the Japanese RVG series, where something clearly went awry...Donald Byrd's OFF TO THE RACES for example sounds like it's coming from under layers of cheesecloth. You can review those old forums to find other examples. There was also a famous adverse sonic incident with the original pressing of the U.S. JUJU RVG; BN has now made a replacement pressing available (there's a thread on that, too).

TOCJ's are not remastered by Rudy (often for these no remastering engineer is credited). They sound generally good to me too, but different, and again often are not from the original master tapes according to people on this board more in the know than me (e.g. Chuck Nessa). I think that makes sense to my ears, also, because one reason a lot of people like the TOCJ is they have a slightly "warmer" sound...I suspect some have been dubbed from (pristine) vinyl. Personally, I'll take either a U.S. or Japanese RVG any day...much more "presence" and still a lot of bottom end, certainly not tinny if not quite as "warm" as a TOCJ jewel box.

As for "normal" U.S. Blue Notes...I think most sound really good and that some of the criticism of Ron McMaster (the one who remasters most of these) is unwarranted, but he does tend to be a bit inconsistent...sometimes his jobs tend to have a lot of harshness on the high end (e.g. the U.S. COMPLETE BLUE HOUR SESSIONS).

The original U.S. reissues (from the late 80's) sound quite a bit worse, but to my ears so did most CD's from that era - I don't think companies quite had the CD remastering and production process down yet, so things tend to sound dead and compressed. However, I must say that just last night I listened to the 1988 remastering of A.T.'S DELIGHT and was actually quite surprised at how good it sounded...I wonder sometimes if my "ears" haven't been suckered into "hearing" things that aren't there by all the hair splitting audio talk that you'll find on the board."

Claude:

"...My personal experience is that most of the post-1994 reissues remastered by McMaster (Connoisseur series and the regular Blue Notes) and the US/european RVGs sound good to excellent. RVGs are very dynamic and tend to sound different from the earlier releases, as far as frequency balance and stereo image is concerned. It is a matter of taster whether one prefers McMaster's or Van Gelder's approach.

Most japanese RVGs I have heard had an strange frequency balance that sounded completely unnatural. The only one I am satisfied with is "Basra".

The only series that sounds consistently good are the TOCJs. Even the older releases from the early 90's have a very neutral and clean sound."

riverrat:

"...I'll chime in here too. I have not been a jazz collector for nearly as long as Tony and probably not Claude, but I've monitored this board for a couple of years. As you can see from just the 2 previous posts, opinions vary on which are the best sounding remasters. Tony seems to prefer the US RVGs, Claude seems to prefer the TOCJ series.




I generally like the TOCJ's myself, but not in every case. I often buy the US version of a title (RVG or not) for a cheap, often used price. If I really like it, I opportunistically pick up Japanese versions if I find them for an affordable price.

But there are exceptions. The 20-bit TOCJ series are top choices for me, but the 4000 and 4100 series are only 16-bit. Even these sound better than their 16-bit US counterparts, but when the title is available as a domestic 24-bit RVG it becomes a tough choice. And the US RVG's are an unbeatable value.

Then there is the issue of extra tracks. TOCJ and JRVG titles don't contain extra tracks (with only a very few exceptions). The US versions often do. This doesn't matter much to me if the extra tracks are just alternate takes, but quite often they are original unreleased tracks which are great to have.

Finally, JRVGs are widely regarded to be somewhat inconsistent, while the TOCJ series is very consistent in quality. I have several JRVGs that sound EXCELLENT (Shorter "Night Dreamer", McLean "Demon's Dance", Byrd "Royal Flush", Silver "Tokyo Blues") but was not very happy with Lee Morgan "Cornbread"."

I know this is a very old threat, but I wanted you to know this is very informative for me!!! :):):)

JB

[Lonson]

I've been enjoying SACD more and more. . . wish it had taken off as a medium and I doubt that it ever will with the sort of depth of catalog I'd like. But I pick up a few every now and then and love the sound.

My favorite SACD is "Louis Armstrong Plays W. C. Handy." Just such a great recording and the SACD adds something.

[instantations]

I'm new here so I apologize in advance if anything I'm gonna say has already been discussed on the board.

While I placed great hope in SACD a few years ago, the question is where is it headed now? There are very few new releases and most importantly, less and less hardware (and we all know all disc players die sooner or later).

My SACD player (a Denon DVD-A11) is dying on me and I don't see what player I could buy as a replacement, considering my CD player (a XLR balanced output Vecteur Club Sixty) is still flawless (I dread when this one will go) and I'd rather replace the Denon by a BD player (it is my main DVD player too).

So I'll be left with a handfull of discs I won't be able to play (the non-hybrid SACDs from Sony...) and a few more hybrids which will go back to red-book status (well some of them are worth it even as red books, ie the MoFi's or the Living Stereo series... but that's classical music).

On the other hand, my CD player is pretty high-end and I don't think I can ever afford such a high-end SACD player. Quality red book CDs sound amazing on it, and average SACD playback wasn't such an improvement. Sure some SACDs sounded very different and better than their CD counterparts (Billie's Lady in Satin for instance) but I'm not really sure I was not fooling myself about the overall better quality of SACD on my own system (I don't mean in general).

So my (not very clear) point is nowadays I'd rather put my money in audiophile CDs (XRCDs, MoFi releases and the likes) or simply good-sounding CDs I know I'll be able to enjoy for many more years. And I do buy vinyl too (even though the neurotic side in me is almost always disappointed by new audiophile LPs I put too much expectations in, while happily surprised by second hands I casually buy).

(By the way, is there a thread about SHM-CD here? And what about K2 remastered plain CDs vs. real XRCDs?)

[instantations]

Oops silly me!!! I didn't realize the original post in this thread was from 2003 and the latest from 1 year ago. Well well well...

[JohnBlutarski]

Oops silly me!!! I didn't realize the original post in this thread was from 2003 and the latest from 1 year ago. Well well well...



well, it's an interesting subject

JB

[stonewall15]

I have a different perspective on this issue. As an avid collector of jazz CDs of the 40's, 50's and 60's music I don't care at all about whether the CD is 16-bit, 24-bit, SACD, RVG, TOCJ, etc, etc, etc. I am satisfied to get the music in any CD format and would certainly not turn down acquisition of a CD just because it wasn't in a particular format. If it came down to a choice between two copies of the same music I probably would select the one that had extra tracks, even if the extra tracks were alternate takes. I do agree that generally the Japanese reissues are superior and would select one if all else were equal even if the Japanese issue was more expensive ...............As far as sound quality is concerned the old jazz original recordings were not done with today's state of the art equipment and therefore should not be judged by today's standards. Many recordings were even done in monaural, as that was all that was available at the time. Therefore, worrying about the differences between LPs or CD versions of the same music is like trying to sort fly specs from pepper. To my (older) ears any CD sounds great and I am very happy to own it! ............I understand there are a few out there that still prefer LPs, contending that LP sound is preferable to any CD format. Personally, I am glad to be rid of LPs and sell mine on eBay as soon as I get a CD of the music or make a CDR of it. The missing clicks, pops and hiss of even the best LPs make CDs preferable, not to mention the ability of CDs to be played in car stereos.

[instantations]

Therefore, worrying about the differences between LPs or CD versions of the same music is like trying to sort fly specs from pepper.

Well of course if you'd rather season your meals with fly specks, it's totally up to you :) (don't take this seriously, it's only a tease)

[Matthew]

This is completely off topic but.... Seeing Mnytime's name again.... *sigh* :( I enjoyed him -- a lot. RIP bro.

[Bill Robinson]

When I put on the SACD of "Monk's Music", and "Well, You Needn't" kicks in, it sounds like they're in the room. I can hear the ambience of the room they were in.

[Pie-eyed blue]

Analogue Productions is about to release 25 Blue Note titles as SACDs. I'm not going for them. . . I don't need to rebuy these, but if anyone didn't have these titles (who that might be, not quite sure) this may be a good way to get a few (but an expensive way).

http://store.acousticsounds.com/search_results.cfm?adv=true%20&field_cat=4&searchtext=analogue,productions&field=Label%20&label=analogue%20productions%20&status=Pre%20Order%20&category=all_4