The amendment as a shield for Bush

[Frank Mullen]

Long time ago I expected Bush to float a constitutional amendment about abortion to divert the electorate from evaluating Bush on his record. He or his colleagues are not quite as dumb as I thought. They're far craftier. The electorate polls about fifty-fifty on that. But they're more against gay marriage. Better to sponsor a congressional amendment against gay marriage to divert attention.

And lo! Thats what the slimy sob has done. What a surprise!

Same old magicians trick. Do something dramatic with one hand to attract attention from the other hand.

[Mailman]

Just to say I couln't agree with you more. Aside from the absolute idocy of ammending the constitution over such a trivial matter, the question is; will the public buy the bait? Let's hope not.

[Fran]

Our Hitler, much like the old one, doesn't need the public. He'll just wave one hand in the air to get your attention while he chops off your civil rights with the other.

[Andy D]

You know to an outsider like me this is a cheap shot, aimed at distracting people from the 'real' issues. As the mayor of San Francisco, sanctions same sex marriages, the leader of the Western World wants to show us that he has good 'ole' values at heart.

As he cuts spending on public education, health, social benefit etc and resides on the greatest gap between the have and have not's in US history, he suggests that the traditional family, with marriage at the heart of this, is what he wants and he will not tolerate all these 'gay' people marrying each other.

It is so easy to sleep at night knowing that the future of the world is in such safe and christian hands!

God bless the President;)

Regards

Andy D.

[Andy D]

I admire what he is saying, but question why it has taken a personal issue like this, for him to question the president? The phrase 'No More Profound Attack' could be used to describe a whole raft of threats, abuses and attacks that GW has levelled on the US population and the rest of the world.

For gay people, substitute black people, poor people, working class people, people of South America, Africa, or the Middle East and you begin to see a bigger picture that Andrew Sullivan did not see, had no idea of or perhaps chose to ignore for his own personal reasons.

Regards

Andy D.

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by Fran
Our Hitler, much like the old one, doesn't need the public. He'll just wave one hand in the air to get your attention while he chops off your civil rights with the other.


Wow Fran!!!!

[Saundra Hummer]

This is what the issue of "Flag Burning," and "Prayer In School" has always been used for, but that got to be old hat, or somewhat old hat.

I believe they did make Flag Burning illegal, but they are still pushing for intergrating religion into our public schools. Look where that can lead!

Now they have hot new "Button" issues, and they will use them for all they're worth, knowing full well that the C. Coalition voting block is all for any measure like this.

I just feel that 'Gays" should have every right that we have. They pay the same taxes and have to obey the same laws as straights.

Why shouldn't they have the right to say who it is that should receive their Social Security, and any other benefits that the rest of us enjoy? They have paid into the system, just like the rest of us, and so have their parents, or so I would imagine. Don't you think that they will continue to pay, even though they reap less of the benefits than we heterosexuals?

If they aren't entitled to the rights all of us have, then why should they have to pay into the system at all? If they can't enjoy the sanctity of marriage then why should they be taxed. Why should there be laws still on the books making their situation against the law? Add to this a "Constitutional Amendment?" How crazy can politics get? Pretty darn crazy with politicians that people consider conservative, just wacko if you ask me. Of course you didn't but!!!

How radical is this going to get?

[Frank Mullen]

Whatever the outcome of this election, and trying to be as impartial as I can be, I figure Bush is bound to be considered in the judgement of history as worse than Nixon.Yeah---even that.

[Noj]

I think that Saundra has really hit on a concept that I have been considering for a while. Many social problems can be better dealt with by looking at them from a financial point of view rather than a political point of view.

For example, Affirmative Action would be better focused if it simply helped people with the greatest financial need and ignored race all together.

Echoing Saundra, gays pay their taxes too. Opinions aside, they deserve to have the right to marry and enjoy the financial benefits of marriage. I think marriage is more of a legal bind than a religious one anyway...

I work in West Hollywood, where gays are very numerous. I've met many gay couples who appear to be genuinely in love. I do not see why I should care what they do in the bedroom or whether gays marry. It doesn't affect me in the least.

[jav]

What amazes me is that after all the sleight of hand Bush has pulled during his term, that there are still a significant number who continue to support him. His politics are very transparent and his attempts to divert attention away from his reactionary and usually failed policies are so obvious that one would have to be either a fool, an arch conservative or totally oblivious to politics not to see the true intent of his deeds. I have maintained since day one that G.W. is the most dangerous and inept president we have ever seen, and he continues to prove that on a daily basis.

[savoy]

Read all of the posts above and couldn't agree more. All I'm going to add is this:

Now that this idiot president has finally blatantly dropped the other shoe, how do you kiss-ass "Log Cabin Republicans" like him now. I knew it was just a matter of time before he would show his true colors! We, all of us, have to fight against prejudice toward any of our fellow citizens. I'm warning you, take a stance folks ... take a stance NOW. Our very survival Gay, Straight, Bi-Sexual, or Hottentot; Black, White, or any color in between, depends on it. Make it clear that we will not tolerate this bullshit. Prejudice is passe and stifling, not to mention stupid; and it slows to a crawl the social growth of all of us.

[Frank Mullen]

If you think he has no other power than the bully pulpit-----

[Eric in KC]

Hi All,

We are ALL being had, Republican or Democrat. I have watched this long enough to (sadly) have come to this realization. Pols care about ONE thing ... and that is being re-elected. And WE are the ones who re-elect them. So, who is to blame?

Hell ... not us :)

I believe there are altruistic men and women who go into politics with the goal of making a difference (both Republican and Democrat). But ... once they learn the rules, even the best of them, know that in order to make a difference, they need to get re-elected. And thus the game begins.

Sure, it is disgusting, but that is the way it is. So for now, you all are indignent about Bush much the same way I was indignent about Clinton. But ... it is the system, not the man or woman and not the party.

And to that end ... it is one of the shortcomings of Democracy. But, Democracy is the LEAST corrupt political system to ever come down the pike.

No answers here ... other than to get out and participate and vote!! :D

Eric a/k/a Kiss Ass Log Cabin Republican

[Saundra Hummer]

I am just hoping that he doesn't end up being able to appoint more judges to the courts, and to the Supreme court, as this is where the power of the presidency lies, or so I believe. It frightens me to think that he could appoint more like Renquist and Scallia. it really does. Look at what appointed judges have already done to us! I will admit that often times they will fool a president and go their own way, not be led by the nose so to speak by a government with no moral fortitude, a government that is being run by like minded men intent on lining the pockets of their rich contributors, and buddies. Great for them when they have the inner strength and convictions to do what we, the American public thinks is the right thing, or those of us who follow our own path, not being dictated to by a movement or radical cause or a radical selfseeking, do it my way or the highway coalition or person.

[It Should be You]

I don't know pecan but maybe they were thinking like this:

The constitution talks about separation of powers, free speech, right to a trial, eliminating slavery, banishing alcohol, and how long a president can serve in office, maybe it was time the constitution said more about weddings? I don't know..

I'm not whining. Every boy and girl can run for president on this platform:

Screw the CIA intelligence and the UN. We don't know who we're bombing, we're just mad about 9/11. Those people are all the same

Let's quit playing around and put a man on Mars

Civilization is so close to the brink of destruction, we have to make sure people procreate. There ought to be a law :soapbox

riffin rough

[Saundra Hummer]

My family came from MD originally, must be related!

[savoy]

Originally posted by Adam Lozo


Come on guys, what are you really getting at here? You're just sounding like whiners to me.

Talk about someone's head stuck in the sand ...

[savoy]

Originally posted by Eric in KC
Hi All,
Eric a/k/a Kiss Ass Log Cabin Republican

Glad to see that we agree ...

[Andy D]

It is a common tactic, amongst Politicians, to try and obscure the 'real' issues, such as poverty, lack of education funding etc by focusing on a 'soft' option. This is what is happening here, do you really think that the issue of 'gay marriage' is as important as the cuts in the welfare system, the disparity between those that have and those that do not etc?

This is another example of the kind of 'moral crusade' that GW see's as a way of staying in power and detracting from the issues that he has contributed to, it is cheap politics of the crudest kind.
Regards

Andy D.

[Saundra Hummer]

The news magazines are saying he has really exposed "his naked pandering" with this one. The gay marriage constituional amendment craziness! Talk about a non issue. They were interviewing a lady on the street in Portland, and she said that gay marriage doesn't amount to anything, that we have more important issues than this.

If I were a member of the Christian Coalition, I would be upset that anyone would try to use me in such a way, play to my perceived stupidity, my perceived bigotry.

A low opinion of them?

[3pointdeli]

Originally posted by Saundra Hummer

If I were a member of the Christian Coalition, I would be upset that anyone would try to use me in such a way, play to my perceived stupidity, my perceived bigotry.

perceived stupidity?

perceived bigotry?

if this isn't what the christian coalition wants, than what is?

[Saundra Hummer]

Trying to leave a door open for them! Maybe someday!

[bubber]

It's hard to understand at all what's going on in the US re this matter. Over here it seems only the most fundamentalist Christians share GWB's opinions.

If he gets his way, I have a couple of legal questions: what happens if two American guys get married somewhere in Europe and return to the states after a couple of years: Will the marriage be considered illegal and "cancelled" and will they be punished? Or if two married girls from France move to US and after staying the necessary period apply for citizenship, will they have to divorce to obtain it?

[Andy D]

I guess it is about recognition, in that GW does not want to 'recognize' same sex marriages. This denies them any rights as a married couple, so people could get married in France, go back to the states, and it would not be seen as a legal marrage if GW has his way.

If one of the couple died, for example then the other would not be able to claim the property, the money etc that this person had. It would go to the state or the nearest relative.

Regards

Andy D.

[Saundra Hummer]

If any administration were to treat all veterens of wars, and conflicts, they say it would break the economy, so therefore you know what has happened here, very sick men and women not getting much needed treatments, and medical assistance.

I think that other than using the gay issue of marriage for poliitical gain, politico's don't want to recognize gays as having any rights because of Social Security, and any other benefits that might have to be paid out to them. Corporations don't want to to pay for for insurance, etc., and for their retirement benefits. Money, it almost always comes back to money.

[Frank Mullen]

We're against the amendment because we don't want to crap up the constitution with every damn piddling issue that comes along.

[3pointdeli]

marriage should be a union between any two consenting adults. period. anything less is religiously based bigotry.

adam, frank did not waffle and was not inconsistent on this thread. please find some evidence to back up your accusation.

or apologise.

[3pointdeli]

oh lord.

we vote on all sorts of things, good and bad, that don't defile our constitution...possibly the greatest written document ever.

keep marriage away from the constitution, please.

as to looking for reasons to put bush down...i haven't had to look. all i've had to do is keep my eyes open.

i personally don't care if three people get married, but i prefer to be realistic. i believe two gay people getting married is more likely to one day (soon) be accepted in america than three or more people of any gender, sexual orientation.

i don't understand your last question. please rephrase and i'll try to answer.

[Saundra Hummer]

For god's sake, marriage has enough cruelty in it whan it is abused by those who see it as owning someone, controlling someone, using someone for your own purposes and they are only married to one person, so look at pologmy. Is it a suitable way for the perpertrators to have everything they want, in what looks to most of us, being the reasonable people that we are, (HA!) to be their self seeking selfish way of living. If men can have umpteen wives, then women should be afforded the same right, and be the lady, and mistress of all of their domain. Like the pologimists, being lord and master. Turns my stomach truthfully. No, the issue of pologmy and gays are so totally different as to be non issues. Pologmy has the potential of being akin to slavery, and so therefore it should never be allowed.

[3pointdeli]

Originally posted by Adam Lozo
I don't understand how you can be for one set of changes (gays) yet against another set (3wives) when both groups are looking for the exact same recognition. They want to love each other and be provided the same benefits as other members of society.

Again, I'm all for Gay marriage. I'm just against this Bush bashing thread and the tenor that seems to be prevalent in the politics section at AAJ.

The last paragraph of my earlier question was based on this quote "marriage should be a union between any two consenting adults. period. anything less is religiously based bigotry."

So I'm atheist and want three wives. Why deny me?

i agree with sandra. for the record i never said i was against having three wives, however i think it has shown itself to be an unfair and, ultimately, failed arrangement.

this is an argument about gay marriage, not polygamy. also, don't associate atheism with polygamy. they are not the same. what "group" are you talking about, anyway. i think you are only bringing this up in an attempt to throw a philosophical pothole in the argument for allowing gays the right to marry. i don't believe you actually want to marry three women.

but i'll be happy to talk about this some more when you find two or more women who both want to be married to you (at the same time). just come on back.

until then, if you can't stomach negative comments about bush you should probably stay out of political discussion.

[Frank Mullen]

When the Mormons were actively marrying merrily away during the last century and for all I know may still be doing it in a less active manner, there was no constitutional amendment passed. Is anybody disturbed about that?Seems like gay marriage is more disturbing than bigamy. Is that called homophobia??

[3pointdeli]

i welcome you here, but if you can't take it you should leave. people have survived clinton bashing for the last 12 years and now that gwb is getting the citicism he deserves people are acting like there is some bizarre, one sided, unprecedented smear campaign going on. christ, you republicans are such babies.

now back to the topic...

is there ANY mention of marriage in the constitution?

[Noj]

Financially speaking, polygamy is considerably different than gay marriage--and it doesn't carry the same type of controversy.

I see this amendment as the type of hateful expression toward gays that even I once participated in. Homosexuality is difficult to understand, especially for us heterosexual males. For a heterosexual male, women are the end all of all sexual ideas and the idea of sex with a man is nauseating. I believe it is this gut-level adverse reaction to it that gives this hate its staying power. In order to get past this, I came to peace with the following:

1. Gay people are born gay
2. Gay people are attracted to gay people
3. Gay people have to live and die just the same as everyone else

I do not harbor any hate toward gay people. I do not care how they live their lives. I do not think it is any of my business whether or not they get married, and don't see why they shouldn't. It will not effect me.

If I am lucky enough to meet a young lady that I fall in love with and get married to, I will not lose any sleep thinking about gay marriage. I will be too busy being happy with my own marriage.

[3pointdeli]

maybe there is a smear campaign, but i think he's getting off easy.

[Frank Mullen]

(for Adan Lozo---

The Chinese symbol for trouble is their symbol for a house with two women inside it. So I'm glad that you don't want to marry two women.

And I don't give a happy damn if bigamy becomes endemic, nor do I care if gay marriage does either.I more or less agree with the English Victorian lady who said she didn't care what they did "as long as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses". An anti-abortion amendment has been proposed by the godfearing sonsofbitches from the right-not me. They did succeed in passing a law against a late term abortion technique, thereby stepping between a woman and her doctor in a matter concerning her health. Why should this be a matter decided by a bureaucrat instead of a doctor? (Didn't conservatives once favor less intervention of government into private affairs?)

And to clarify what I thought was clear enough, None of thse matters belong in the constitution,except the medical rights of a woman and her doctor. And who made Roe and Wade a necessary decision?

Now to the point of my original post--Bush is using all of this stuff as an attention getting ploy to divert everyones attention from what a diddlehead he is.

And please don't invite me to any of your weddings. I'm too busy jumping up and dowm hollering about what really bugs me--what Bush has done and is doing to
American science. (dumping the Hubble,sticking his religious attitude into biological research,dumping scientfic advisors who disagree with his narrow viewpint, the absence of any sensible Energy policy and on and on)

Those are the important things--not who marries whom.

[Frank Mullen]

Really Adam--To be serious about it-What Bush has done to America's scientific efforts is not smearing him. It's all fact and it is a dangerous insinuation of the Christian right wing into decisions which should be made by scientists, not bureaucrats.

Think about it and read about what he's done and is doing. Beyond all the joking around, you seem like a reasonable guy.
The facts should persuade you, not partisan arguments.

[Andy D]

For far too long there has been a moral minority that has dictated the way American social and foreign policy has been planned and implemented . This is being played out in the States and the rest of the world, with all its consequenses and many in the US fail to see the full consequences of this. As your Government, and now mine, export their view of democracy around the world, we are seeing increasing conflicts and alienation of individuals and communities

So while your President concerns himself with Gay Marriages, the gap between the increasing white middle class, and the black, hispanic etc poor increases. Public welfare funding for the poorest is cut, as abuse of human rights increases and the US creates most of the World's pollution.

Regards

Andy D.

[Andy D]

Further to my last post:

The result of this is the alienation of the US, save a few governments that share the same 'moral and ethical' view of the rest of the World. While the US Goverment deludes itself that it talks for the 'World' moral majority, it increasingly looks like it talks for only itself.

In the meantime the hatred, the anger etc increases and this conflict threatens all of us.

Regards

Andy D.

[Frank Mullen]

Andy--I can't argue with you about that last. If we are considering long range problems hows this. China has been and is becoming industrialized and along with the US and Europe will be competing for an ever diminishing amount of a non-renewable oil resource, And our beloved president has done zilch about our Energy policy. Will Kerry. Maybe--theres always hope there. Bush--no hope.

[Saundra Hummer]

Andy, Pandering isn't concern, his concern is vote getting. Take a look at his use of the 9/11 video's that the survivors of 9/11 are seeing used for personal gain.

[Frank Mullen]

Sandi
I couldn't agree with you more.

[Saundra Hummer]

Great Frank, now I need to get myself over to the outrage page and moan and groan about GW and the boys wanting to do away with everyones overtime. This coming from a man who has never held down a real job in his life.

He's doing a job now though, isn't he, doing a job on us!

[sheila]

I don't know if Adam left this thread - he indicated he would - I don't mean I agree with him at all, but he represents differing opinions and to keep an argument going you need that instead of total consensus producing I could'nt agree with you more posts.

[Andy D]

Sometimes politics is a dirty business, here in the UK Claire Short, a Labour MP has recently informed people the the UK Government spied on the UN. Now the consequences of this are that she has been threatened,. told to say no more and has been labelled as some kind of 'traitor'.

The Governments response is to suggest that it is the norm, everyone does it, so we are justified in doing this and of course we are exporting this kind of moral government around the world. I agree with you Shelia, that we need debate, something that I think does not happen in US and UK politics.

Those with a different perspective struggle to get their voice heard, those who feel alienated find it hard to articulate their ideas. This board has many different views, and most of the time is respectful of these. I do not agree with Adam, but respect his position and my views are my views, and this forum allows me the opportunity to discuss my thoughts and opinions and I very much welcome differing views.

Regards

Andy D.

[dwatts]

Bush is a scumbag. Once he's through making sure his friends are financially secure, he might, just MIGHT, get around to helping the rest of us. The gay issue is just typical - a constitutional amendment to stop them marrying?!?!? He's a lunatic.

There's nothing that he could do to turn me around. He's disgusting. It's embarrasing to have him as President, but I do believe in the system that he abused. As soona as he goes, I for one will be having a big party.

No, I'm not coming back to this thread again. no-one ever changes their mind in a thread such as this. It's pointless. At least I've had my say.

[Andy D]

Seems that he has started a whole new row with the use of 9/11 footage for his electoral campaign.

Regards

Andy D.

[Frank Mullen]

Andy D. As you're in the UK you are probably unaware of the tactics of the GOP. (Grand Old Party) (Republicans that is) A few years ago when the former Governor of Massachusetts was running, a convict who had been let out of prison was later convicted of murder. The gov. who had little to do with the process was the butt of a tv ad showing prisoners going into jail and immediately out again and of course ascribed the whole dismal affair to the democrats and specifically to the governor, who had nothing to do with this case or the process.
Get ready for the dirt to fly. They've already started rumors about an affair between Kerry and some girl which the democrats were able to show was untrue.
They have thru a surrogate bought up an overwhelming chain of radio stations throughout the country featuring right wing commentators who broadcast all this crap without any proof at all.

[3pointdeli]

read this every day. if you disagree with the politics you can still go to see the daily photo of the girl from garbage.

http://www.bartcop.com/

[Saundra Hummer]

Frank, even without the purchasing of radio stations, there are just so many sanctimonious jabbermouths out there that think that we can be led by the nose. It is an unbelievable situation.

The hurt, and the damage that they do is far worse than Howard haters could ever imagine. Not that all Howard haters are for their right wing propaganda, most aren't, as we would really be in worse straights than we are already if everyone fell for their methods of planting radical and off the wall beliefs in our heads.

Remember Anita Hill, and the holier than thou Rush Limbaugh? I heard about 15 minutes of his filthy carryings on, till it turned my stomach, and I never ever listened to him again, and he is, or was the darling of the right wing Christian Coalliton. Now we know just what lengths they will go to, and look at how phoney he is and was. How religous can you get. No part of it for me thank you! Not the way I want to think or believe.

Now they have really made the playing field uneven, and it's growing more so every day. Like I say, conservative is another name for radical. Look around, it's true.