Hey! / Jazz Intimidation

[NoWittyComment]

Hey!

I've been listening to Jazz for years, but I've been learning about for a few weeks now. I love the music, particulary Bop and Cool Jazz, and I'm enjoying learning about other styles of Jazz.

However, it seems that alot of guides that I've read make Jazz out to be an extremely intellectual, elitest pleasure. Suddenly, it seems that just listening and enjoying the music isn't enough.

This isn't to say that I don't like to try to listen to certain quirks within the music (the emotion, trying to follow the improvisation, the mysterious 'Jazz Humor', etc.), but some of the guides make me feel like I'm missing something.

So...Am I missing something? Should I be listening for more in the music?

[monk]

No, you aren't missing anything.
Just listen to jazz in your favorite way.
A work of art that needs explanation or intellectual dissection is not really good art. And listeners like you prove that jazz IS good art! Because it has an immediate, positive effect on an open listener.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[bubber]

Agree with Monk - would just like to add that the more you listen, the more you'll enjoy and more details will be revealed.

[JFitzGenius]

Part of my job here at AAJ is trying to keep people from taking jazz too seriously (I am also on the yearbook staff, and prom committee). In fact, part of my mission in life is trying to keep people from taking anything too seriously. It is my opinion that those who overthink jazz are, in fact, murdering it by dissection. To me, jazz is an organic experience, a luxurious whole to immerse oneself in completely. It should be Zen-like in the simplicity of its appreciation; it simply is what it is.

[Andy D]

There is indeed a tendency, amongst some to make Jazz more intellectual and serious than it needs to be. So when I try and introduce jazz to other people, there are already barriers there
"I can't understand it ", " it is serious music" and this puts some people off. Some of the different styles of jazz can also be confusing, and I take bubbers view that it is best just to listen to it and see what follows from that.

Regards

Andy D.

[clifton]

I enjoy looking at jazz in depth, and that includes some intellectual analysis. But jazz listening (and playing) should be fun. The analysis stuff is fun for me. But if it's not fun for you, ignore it and listen to jazz your way.

[Andy D]

Clifton.

As I have listened to jazz over many years I have developed a 'serious' interest in 'wider' issues, be it jazz history, the different styles, biographies etc etc and I share the passion you seem to be talking about. It is always a thrill for me to have a 'serious' conversation, within someone who shares a more serious interest in jazz.

Of course that does not exclude a more 'trivial' conversation or two:wink2:

Regards

Andy D.

[Fran]

Originally posted by JFitzGenius
it simply is what it is.

AH ! Now I understand !

[Muskrat Ramble]

The oak tree in the garden.

[Bev Stapleton]

Enjoy! Enjoy! Enjoy!

There's easy to listen to stuff that's magnificent. There's obtuse stuff that's magnificent, if you're curious enough to investigate it.

You can enjoy just listening; you can enjoy reading round it and going into in-depth musicological study.

Just ignore anyone who tries telling you that you shouldn't be enjoying what you do enjoy.

Jazz is a broad church. Take from it what you want.

[Tenorman]

Don't listen to Jazz - listen to music. If it's your bag, stick it on the deck and enjoy. You don't have to listen and enjoy anything in particular. Music is there primarily to be enjoyed. If you want to analyse it, fine, carry on. Me, I stick it on the deck, if I like it, it gets played again - I don't analyse the chord structure etc. Quite honestly I don't care. I am listening to Julie London at the moment, and I am not going to get in to any arguments about whether or not she is a Jazz singer.

I like what she does so I play her output. End of story.

Do your own thing. If it pleases you; keep playing it. They are your ears, your brain. Listen to your ears -(ehh does that make any sense?)

[kenny weir]

Originally posted by Tenorman
Listen to your ears -(ehh does that make any sense?)

Er, um, no/yes/no ... :D

[Darth Improviser]

This is one of the most postive, affirming collection of messages about jazz that I have read in any jazz discussion group. This kind of attitude is nourishing; it helps the listener feel comfortable with his or her feelings, which in turn gives that person the confidence to explore other possibilities in the music.

Nice to find such an unprentetious, down-to-earth, zazen practicing family of music fans.

[Scottone]

a relationship with jazz is like any other: we take what we want, what we need, what we can at any given time.

I have guys I play basketball with, and I know nothing of their lives off the court. Not their last names, where they live, their job. I'm cool with that; so are they.
on a rare occasion, it will come out that I play music. I can count on one hand the number of times a fellow baller has come to my gig, or I to their place of business. it just isn't relevant to hooping.

I enjoy 'classical' music. I can rarely name what I hear on the radio, I know maybe 20 composers, and could regularly identify the work of maybe 4. could I enjoy it more if I knew more? possibly. right now, though, I enjoy it just fine.

if and when you and jazz need more from one another to be satisfied, fulfilled, you'll dig for more info, more understanding, more intimate knowledge.

but no relationship begins with knowledge; it begins with attraction, then interest, then desire. then knowledge will feed and sustain it (or kill it off quick; depends).

if and when.

[NoWittyComment]

Originally posted by Darth Improviser
This is one of the most postive, affirming collection of messages about jazz that I have read in any jazz discussion group. This kind of attitude is nourishing; it helps the listener feel comfortable with his or her feelings, which in turn gives that person the confidence to explore other possibilities in the music.

Nice to find such an unprentetious, down-to-earth, zazen practicing family of music fans.

Yeah, I agree! Thanks for the input, everyone. I feel more at ease listening to it now:)

[tkeables]

While I totally agree that you should listen to what speaks to your soul, I've found that if I read about the musician or composer or time in which the music was produced it gives me a deeper appreciation of the context that engendered the art.

Keep en eye on Daedalus books online (salebooks.com) for a source of reasonably-priced jazz books.

[Saundra Hummer]

I am in agreement with JFritzGenius, and Andy, just enjoy! Thats the purpose to my way of thinking, I don't think that analyzing it was what the musicians had in mind for us to do, they may have themselves, but they wanted to do their best, be at their most artistic, and swiinging selves, and entertain us, entertain us to make us want to come back for more.

I remember a fellow we were with one night, who wasn't a musician, he kept talking about the meter of the pianiast's left hand. Too slow he was saying. That ended up being the butt of jokes for a while, the pretentiousness of even saying that out loud cracked everyone up.

To me jazz has always been fun, not an intellectual persuit, although it can inspire you to delve into other intellectual mediums, poetry, the classics in literature, it is as though it fires off the neurons to send you off in persuit of deeper thoughts.

[Phil Kelly]

A lot of excellent advice here ..

one more factor to keep in mind:

Many so call "jazz writers" are frustrated non- musicians,who in the guise of
being erudite, try to flummox the reader with a bunch of esoteric BS that
really adds nothing to the musical experience ..

so, the advice of just relax ,listen , and let your ears gradually take you
deeper into the musical experience is, IMO, really the best basic suggestion
offered here ..

[HaterDrums]

Originally posted by Darth Improviser
This is one of the most postive, affirming collection of messages about jazz that I have read in any jazz discussion group. This kind of attitude is nourishing; it helps the listener feel comfortable with his or her feelings, which in turn gives that person the confidence to explore other possibilities in the music.

Nice to find such an unprentetious, down-to-earth, zazen practicing family of music fans.


I couldn't have said it better.

[marvin g]

I used to be intimidated by jazz. But after I started listening to it on a regular basis I came to simply like what I like and listen to as often as I can period.

[clifton]

On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with deep, even esoteric discussion of jazz. It's a deep music that takes us to some strange and beautiful, even intellectual places. Let the music take you. Who knows, you could find yourself on some intellectually obscure thread discussing Bird's use of triplet figures. Or not. You can, and should, dig the music your way.

[Katzman]

I joined this forum about a week ago and was expecting to find a bunch a theory heads blandly discusing different subsitute scales to use over the D flat dominant 7th cord, etc. Thank god I have encountered passionate, soulful opinions that are down to earth, not indulgently academicly yet clearly informed. There is however a time for all discusions/topics, but if you are phased by the inteluctual pressure of Jazz you can do more by just useing your ears, mind and heart. I asked a jazz mentor of mine what scale to play over what cord and he laughed and said just play.

[Phil Kelly]

KatzM:

There is some of the technical stuff here, but it's over in a Musician to Musician section ...

[Katzman]

Sorry, new to these pages, over enthusiastic, and haven't really got into the musician to musicain threads yet. This certainly seems to me to be a well ballenced forum, it's got it all.

[xricci]

Katzman,

A belated welcome aboard!

Mike

[Noah Peterson]

Yes - you are missing some things in jazz. Should you be listening for more? I quote the Isley brothers, "It's your thing, do watcha wanna do."

I prefer live recordings because jazz, like all music, is spiritual. And when it's shared in a group setting, the player and the audience member together make a show great.

I opened for the Jimmy Smith Group last night in Portland, OR. While my B-3 player was hanging out with Jimmy, the rest of the bands were hanging out backstage and Phil Upchurch was speaking with a local fan who was an actor about music. Phil was saying there is no such thing as method playing as in acting. There's no intellectual tools. There's only your ear and your heart. All jazz is reactionary.

I'd make sure to point out that that includes the audience participation. From the performers perspective, nothing makes me player better than a responsive audience. Jazz is instant and changing communication with the audience. It's one thing to get a bunch of master musicians and record them doing their thing in a studio - all of which is cool and good. But the music come alive and electric when it's on front of people, because it has changed. Instead of 4 people in the band, now there's 500. And that's very cool. I listen for those magical moments where audiences are captivated and performers are inspired. But that's not what everyone likes. And that's cool too.

[Frank Mullen]

About 10 years ago I Helped a guy get a classical record that has haunted me ever since hearing it. All I remember is that it was by someone with a name like Steinman (or close ?? ) and it was in memoriam to the holocaust. It was the most powerful piece of music I believe I ever heard, and I kick myself for not having gotten a copy for myself. Has any of you any Idea what I'm talking about??? Help!

[Saundra Hummer]

Perhaps the Holocaust Museum in New York might know. It seems I've heard about it, but can't say for sure. If it is what I am thinking of, it is said to be wonderful.

[Frank Mullen]

Sandi---It is indeed Sandi. I could kick myself for not buying it then, or at least noting the exact name and that of its composer. If I find it I'll let you know. Regards.

[wjd]

Originally posted by NoWittyComment
Hey!

I've been listening to Jazz for years, but I've been learning about for a few weeks now. I love the music, particulary Bop and Cool Jazz, and I'm enjoying learning about other styles of Jazz.

However, it seems that alot of guides that I've read make Jazz out to be an extremely intellectual, elitest pleasure. Suddenly, it seems that just listening and enjoying the music isn't enough.

This isn't to say that I don't like to try to listen to certain quirks within the music (the emotion, trying to follow the improvisation, the mysterious 'Jazz Humor', etc.), but some of the guides make me feel like I'm missing something.

So...Am I missing something? Should I be listening for more in the music?

I started out listening to jazz that hit me immediately, without any need for analysis or reading, such as Charles Mingus' Ah Um, Art Blakey's Free For All, Oliver Nelson's Blues and the Abstract Truth, McCoy Tyner's Trident, Thelonious Monk's Brilliant Corners. After that I was so interested that I did go on and read about jazz and checked out many esoteric and difficult artists. I have found that jazz books and articles are rarely all that instructive about the music, except to identify some recordings which may be good or which may be in a style that I like. There is far too much overintellectualizing in jazz writing.

[PsychedelicFuzz]

I totally agree. As a musician studying jazz and classical, I sometimes get a little perturbed at the way some people are scared away from the music.

It's all about what touches you. You don't need a BA to think something is beautiful. My four year old sister sits in my lap and grooves on the Miles/Marcus Miller/Mike Stern stuff I'm listening to. Analysis beyond that point isn't necessary.

[Katzman]

Django Reinhardt would have failed grade 1 music theory. He was illiterate so he couldn't read a review. Not only is he the greatest European jazz musician of all time, the greatest guitar player of all time (along with Wes, Segivia, Paco) but he was a musical intellectual nevertheless, one who was so without any academic merit whatsoever and one who's intellect arose out of intuition, open mindedness and a desire for constant innovation.

I am off to lay my guitar pick on his grave in Samois just south of Paris on the final weekend of June when Western Europes Gypsy community pay hommage to him, their musical idol, in a four day long music festival, campside Gypsy Jazz jamming all night long.