"Under God"-Unconstitutional?

[synic]

What are your thoughts on taking the words-"Under God" out of the "Pledge"?

[Chuck Nessa]

I'm old enough to remember the school principal walking into the auditorium to announce the new words "under god". I also remember him telling us Harry Truman would not run for reelection.

[Saundra Hummer]

I remember when it was put in, can't remember the year, but I remember it being included.

I was only a child, and I remember that it felt like we were trying to bribe God into protecting us. I always felt funny about it. I still do.

[BFrank]

In a bigger question: what is the point of saying the "pledge" at all?

[Noj]

Isn't the word "God" an English translation of a word which has the same meaning in every other language?

More people believe in God than do not believe in God, so would it not be democratic to keep it a part of the pledge?

If it is removed from the pledge, should we remove "In God We Trust" from our currency?

Related issue: 10 Commandments In the Courthouse--my question: who disagrees with the 10 Commandments and why?

BTW, I do not practice an organized religion and I believe in separating church and state.

[3pointdeli]

there are more white people than black in america. would it not have been democratic to have kept slavery going?

it's not always about democracy.

[Noj]

Good point, 3point.

[Noj]

Actually, now that I think about it, that analogy doesn't work. More people believing in God is different than more people being white than black since skin color does not account for what people believe or how people think.

However, I agree that "under God" could alienate atheists or people who believe in multiple Gods.

[Andy D]

There are many things the US Government has done in the name of God, and many of these are very 'un-God' like :wink2:

Regards

Andy D.

[Andy D]

I live in the 'West' in that I live in England, and the history of my country has been characterised by the idea that 'God' has been on our side. As we abused our way around the world, raping, enslaving and using up the natural resourses of these countries, we claimed amongst other things that 'God was on our side'.

Of course we can substitute the 'Queen, the King' etc for God but the effect is the same. A kind of moral crusade that continues today, with the effects that we become more and more alienated from the rest of the world.

Regards

Andy D.

[3pointdeli]

Originally posted by Noj
Actually, now that I think about it, that analogy doesn't work. More people believing in God is different than more people being white than black since skin color does not account for what people believe or how people think.

However, I agree that "under God" could alienate atheists or people who believe in multiple Gods.

slavery would have continued had it been put to a vote. that's all i'm saying. (remember who had the right to vote at the time.)

but regardless of whether or not the analogy works, the fact remains: just because america is often called a democracy the majority does not always make the decisions.

we're not a democracy anyway, we're a corporate dictatorship.

[Saundra Hummer]

Slavery might not have continued as there were disgruntled men needing employment, and they would have been against it, much like many are against the Mexicans and others coming to this country for jobs. Most don't want to do the work the Mexicans gladly do, and that night have held true back then, but the blame would have been the same.


One of our local television stations has begun to carry the "600 Club", and the rhetoric that comes from that show is so devisive, and so politically motivated that I wonder if anyone out there knows if it is tax free disguised under the cloak of religion?

I have become so distanced from how most people feel, and believe, that I almost wish I were an agnostic, it would be so much easier.

[Kryssi]

I don't say the pledge at school because I don't like excluding people. There are muslims, agnostics, satanists, wiccans, aethiests... any and every religion. If I had a religion I don't think I'd want my country leaving me out of their pledge.
Of course... if I don't at least stand up for the pledge of allegiance than I will get sent down to the principals... detention, suspension. Whatever she's feeling like giving that day.
So the moral of my little story is even if I don't say the pledge to claim my devotion to a God i don't associate myself with... I still have to stand up for a God I don't associate with. I don't think that I should legally have to stand up for anything I don't believe in. That's public school for ya.

[Andy D]

Kryssi.

You know for a person that is relatively young, you seem to have a great deal of wisdom. Your experience is not that much different from that of young people your age in Palastine or Israel for example, in that they are taught, from an early age, to respect the flag, the anthem, the history etc etc.

If the law, be this man made of from God, says that you should 'stand up for the pledge', then it is very difficult to do otherwise.

If you have time try looking up people like Paul Robeson of John Reed.

Regards

Andy D.

[Kryssi]

Originally posted by Andy D
Kryssi.

You know for a person that is relatively young, you seem to have a great deal of wisdom.


Thank you so much!
It scares me how much school can pry into my personal beliefs. I don't think it is the business of anyone else whether or not I want to say the pledge, but people make it their business. The church and the conservative government fear that they are losing the youth, and quite frankly they are. Our country is growing out of religious institutions in our public schools just like we will grow out of prejudices against homosexuals. Just like the U.S. that my parents knew grew out of segregation, and their parents country grew out of slavery. I don't know why the government is fighting the inevitable equality and tolerance in the near future. 20 years down the road we won't be saying Under God and there will be no Don't Ask/ Don't tell policy in the army, and gay marriage will be legal. It will happen, so why not now?

[Saundra Hummer]

I keep thinging this myself, and told her this on another thread, and think it truer every day.

What are you interested in Kryssi, other than your music?

Andy works with children in Ireland to help them overcome the violence in their lives, and works with others to help with a myriad of problems. Now that could be stressful, but that's another thread.

[Kryssi]

Originally posted by Saundra Hummer


What are you interested in Kryssi, other than your music?



I like philosophy, sociology, anthropology (the subject and the charlie parker song), etymology, Latin and Greek, writing and reading. I even like calculus a little bit. I'm in the latin club and the writing club. I take a circus arts class and I can walk on stilts and juggle. I like the Village Voice, but I'm not gay...I just happen to like the Village Voice. I like long walks on the beach and Scrabble. Maybe not long walks on the beach... I'm a city person. I love my boyfriend.

How's that for not music?

I'm so off topic... but I thought I should answer the question.
So yea... Under God... bad, bad stuff. Bad, bad, bad.

[Saundra Hummer]

Genius Child???!!!!

[Kryssi]

no way. I wish I was a genius child. I would have been one of those precocious kids on jeopardy with rich parents and private school to thank. Instead I was one of those kids that watched to kids on jeopardy and shouted the right answers at the television. hehehe:wink2:

[Noj]

Originally posted by Kryssi
I love my boyfriend.

Alas, the best ladies are often spoken for, and for good reason. :wink2:

[Kryssi]

Awww, that's so sweet.

[Tenorman]

Over here there is an Irish comedian called Dave Allen. He is of Irish Catholic upbringing and I am afraid that the RC church took a lot of (Intelligent) stick in his comic sketches.

That aside, his closing line at the end of every show was

"May your God go with you"

What an excellent way of wishing everyone well.

I do have a problem though.

If you remove "Under God" from the pledge, are you saying that the USA is an aetheist country. Should countries be "Christian", "Moslem", "Jewish", "Hindu", etc. If all "non-christian" are going to remain true to their religions, where does that leave the UK, US etc

And I think I have just broken Mike's rule on discussing religions. If so will remove on request

[Saundra Hummer]

This "Under God" in a new thing, added to the pledge when I was a young girl. and it was discussed by us as there were Chinese in our school who were Buddist. and there were others whose religions prohibitted it. They didn't want to recite the pledge; both for religious reasons, but worlds apart.

We like to think of ourselves as a "God Fearing Nation" believing that God will protect us. Privately! Not having that thought in a pledge, as we separate church from state.

We also have agnostics, atheists and other peoples who don't believe in any of it, who nonetheless love this country. They don't necessarily believe in the phrase either, although believe the pledge is a good thing.

I grew up reciting it in school, the pledge without the phrase that is inflaming so much passion, and I loved saluting the flag. It hung in every class room, and it stood for our freedoms, as we were frightened as young children of being attacked here in this country by our enemies at the time, Germany and Japan. It was frightening as we would come out of the theatre, and have air raid sirens going, black outs, and giant search lights crisscrossing the black night, looking for enemy planes. Even we little kids knew what it was our flag stood for, and it meant something to us. It was a comfort, and a strength.

I can understand now why everyone feels the way they do, after all it can be seen as akin to questioning your loyalty if you dont't want to say the pledge, it is like saying you are against what we stand for if you don't want to say it.

We live in different times, and symbolism isn't as important to us in this day and age, maybe we don't need it as much now as we did then, I don't know the reasons, but to have it say "Under God" I find totally unnecessary, we are stronger people than that, it wasn't there before, and why is it so needed now? We have our own private ways of believing, why is it necessary to insist everyone else believe the way they want us to.

Our founding fathers wisely separated church from state, while giving us all the right to worship anyway we choose, as long as it isn't hurtful, and this is how we should keep it, It works, it makes this a safer place to be. Having this in the pledge doesn't make anyone more religious, kind, or honest, it doesn't effect policy one way or the other, the separation of church and state is a needed thing, just look around the world where that isn't a fact.

[Andy D]

Well in the UK we have 'God Save The Queen' and this has concerned me for a long time. Why?

The close association of the Queen/King with God is one of the reason why we had, and to some extent still have a class systen in the UK.

Should God not save the people, the workers, the people who try and help people? Nothing glorious for me in the monachy.

Claiming God as being on your side causes a great deal of difficulty for many countries and people in the world.

Regards

Andy D.

[todda]

The pledge is empty, nationalist rhetoric. That's American patriotism in a nutshell.

I'm an atheist, but frankly, I could care less. I've instructed my son to substitute 'under God' with the words "in the Tao" to reflect his upbringing. Still, if he prefers "under Spongebob Squarepants" that's fine with me. Mostly, I just ask him to be respectful in light of the fact that there might be one student in the classroom that really buys into the mindlessness of hollow rhetoric.

[Kryssi]

Originally posted by todda
I've instructed my son to substitute 'under God' with the words "in the Tao" to reflect his upbringing.

That's interesting. I've always considered Taoism to be a school of thought rather than a religious belief. Outside of the Taoist mystacism that some Taoists used to practice, it doesn't seem like much of a worship. More of a thought system. In which case, couldn't a catholic be a taoist? I'm just curious, because I think that someone could worship god and practice the Tao. Not that I go for the whole under god thing, just a thought.

[Saundra Hummer]

When in grade school, kindergarten on, until I was about 11, mindless child that I was, I bought into it, and it was a comfort, it was a good thing to have. We were in the midst of a terrible war, we heard the guns going off, being fired over the Catalina Channel, we saw the airplanes scramble to go after a Japanese submarine, we had to sit in the dark because of air raid warnings. The flag with it's symbolism was a comfort, it really was for a lot of us. We of course had teachers that explained the meanings of the words we were saying, and explained what it was that the flag stood for, so we loved it. Some of the children were afraid to be away from their homes, and they explained that away too.

When they introduced "under God" into the pledge, most of my fellow classmates thought it wrong, and I still do. We had several class discussions about it, led by a very good teacher. I don't mind saluting the flag, but that phraise is new to it, and it always felt, as I have said before, that we are trying to bribe God into taking our side. This to me is crazy.

I suspose one could say that the pledge itself is new, so why bother? It is just that some of us need the symbolism to feel that this is a country we will fight for, and defend to be able to continue to live here, and try to make a better life for ourselves, and ours, and that this country will do the same for us. Not necessary, but a comforting thought for some.

[todda]

Originally posted by Kryssi
That's interesting. I've always considered Taoism to be a school of thought rather than a religious belief. Outside of the Taoist mystacism that some Taoists used to practice, it doesn't seem like much of a worship. More of a thought system. In which case, couldn't a catholic be a taoist? I'm just curious, because I think that someone could worship god and practice the Tao. Not that I go for the whole under god thing, just a thought.

You missed the part where I said I was an atheist. ;) Taoism is first and foremost a philosophical system that is practiced as a religion. If you want to call it a thought system, fine. If you prefer the word religion, that is fine as well. Eastern thought tends to be more holistic, so abstractions like distinguishing between philosophy and religion are meaningless. If you want to to be specific, I'm a Tao pantheist. Taoism can meld quite well with Christianity, as it does in I Kaun Tao, but I find the heirarchical structure of the Catholic Church more suited towards Confucianism. As for Taoist religious beliefs, sadly the Cultural Revolution eliminated much of it, with Taiwan being the last vestige of Taoist religious practice.

[Saundra Hummer]

Originally posted by Andy D
Well in the UK we have 'God Save The Queen' and this has concerned me for a long time. Why?

The close association of the Queen/King with God is one of the reason why we had, and to some extent still have a class systen in the UK.

Should God not save the people, the workers, the people who try and help people? Nothing glorious for me in the monachy.

Claiming God as being on your side causes a great deal of difficulty for many countries and people in the world.

Regards

Andy D.

We, in this country, think that "God Save the Queen," just stands for the protection from any problem that might beset England. Like if she falls, then England is weakened. A metaphor for England itself.

We here in the U.S. want to keep church and state separated, or at least there are many of us that do. Then there are the "Coallition" adherents who would change it all, and ruin what it is we have fought so hard to protect. It would mean it's a country for all of us, not just ones that believe as they do if "Under God,"were removed.

Those of us who believe in God, those of us who are Jewish, those of us who are Muslim, those of us who are Buddists, we would all still have our beliefs, and perhaps they would be strengthened by this happening, as we will be a more unified country because of it, we wouldn't be looking down upon the child who has been told that their "God," or their beliefs are different from everyone elses.

We got along without it just fine during WWII, so why do people think it would spell disaster if it weren't said in the pledge now?

[Saundra Hummer]

Jeeze synic, are we ever!

It's as if the whole world is stark raving mad, or at least on the course.

Now we hear about dead oceans spots, the need to quit using Nitrogen fertalizers to pervent it, and there goes crop production, fossil fuels and other things contribute to this also.

Without healthy oceans, everything is doomed, so something had best be underway to stop all of this before it is irreversible.

How we allowed the huge drag nettings by Japan and the large factory ships to overfish our seas is beyond comprehension.

Tree huggers have turned people away from ecology, however we need to go back to this, take a fresh look at what needs to be done, and take a sensible approach to the problems that are killing our planet, and work to improve things.

I am not saying that Bin Laden isn't a pressing issue. We need to find Bin Laden and his like, but what kind of ecological damage is being created doing it? How many Snow Leopards have been killed in the bombings, along with other wild life, and what kind of contamination has been deposited there by our bombs? I'm not forgetting about the human toll either.

I just think that we need to focus our efforts and energy on truly important issues,( Bin Laden and his followers are important) other than issues such as these that do take the focus off of more pressing issues.

I do feel that church, and state be totally separated, and that Bush instead of sending millions to church groups to use on charities, 69% of which goes for salaries, the money should go for purchasing computers and text books for schools, perhaps lunches for those children from families that can't afford it, These are the more pressing issues. Then maybe there would truly be "No child left behind," instead of the disaster that is the American school systems.

Got going in a few circles here with ecology, and Ben Laden, and both are important, both are pressing issues, just intertwined them when I didn't mean to.

[It Should be You]

Originally posted by synic
One nation under stress.....

How about "one nation, under a bit of a misconception..."?

[Andy D]

Norm Chomsky talks about the 'Illusion' that Americans, and to some extent the rest of the World live under. It is easy to think that what you guys hear and see on NBC or ABC is 'real' news, and that this is the way the world is.

In fact it is not, news is framed so the lastest NFL results. the lastest car crash on the LA freeways become the news. When I was in LA in November last year, I was curious about the lack of serious news coverage, the lack in-depth reporting which I observed on the TV.

What happens in the States will effect us all, we ( I live in Europe) will suffer from the polution that you give us (5% of the population = 25% of the Worlds polution), we will suffer from your politics, the way US Governments seem to alienate so many people and so many countries.

As some in the States fill your cars with 'gas', watch your TV for the latest 'touch down' etc, the world is burning and 'US' Governments seem not to give a toss (shit) about this.

Regards

Andy D.

[Saundra Hummer]

Comeon Andy, we have serious news here. We really do, it is just that you probably didn't pick up on PBS, Bill Moyers, Front Line, Night Line, and any other number of regular programing, and specials that are brodcast over T.V.

We of course like our football, you yourself like yours. All work and no play, you know the saying.

It's just that too many of us do live just for our own self fullment, and entertainment, without a serious thought in our heads, and too many kids don't get the education that they need, as they are too fun seeking, looking for instant gratification in everything that they do, not looking down the road, the old Aesop fable in play.

I went through a lot of that myself, couldn't run to the next party fast enough. couldn't get down to the beach early enough, couldn't leave till it was just to late to swim anymore, and hang with my friends, had to get home to eat, bathe, and run to what ever was happening that night. Talk about your beach bum, I was it, but I did keep up with what was happening in the world, as I lived in a college type town, full of progressive thinkers, & not being informed was looked down upon in the extreme.

What you see are the ones that are made visable by their lack of interest, by their ignorance, by their violence, and by their crimes. These are the people that are so often showcased. Look at Krissi, bright and well educated, she has to pick up her knowledge somewhere, so it must be in what she is able to read, or see. The people that I mentioned earlier, aren't what we are all about, we are deeper than people realize. Not all of us, that's for sure, as there are lots of us that need to be better informed than we are, and I admit to being one of them, but we have the means, it is just that we, at times, choose a different road to travel

[mickey/lynn]

Andy,

What you write is so true. We are a nation of dummies and followers. Of course there are exceptions, "everyone" does not mean the whole population, there are still a few people in America who care about humanity. We are just eclipsed, big time, by those who care more about football scores and the secret lives of entertainers. The news? hahahahahaha. The programs mentioned by Saundra come on after everyone has gone to bed, OR, are on public television, which has the distinction of having some(if not all) of the lowest(yet best) rated shows on television- the masses do not watch PBS. Not by a long shot. That's how it's done in America. Put Nightline up against "Jay Leno"- Jay trounces Nightline everynight because people are much more intrested in Tom Cruise than Rawanda.

Of course people will argue, I know very intelligent people who care....Yeah, so do I, I also happen to know (and know of) a lot more people who don't even know how to spell intelligent...and could care less about what's happening in the world, or here in America. We will be up in arms about a situation (like the situation in Iraq where the Americans were murdered and then put on display (if you will) yet ask most Americans to detail the circumstances of how and why we are in that country, most of them will give you that LIE that "that man" (Un-curious George) hand fed us, and be satisfied by that. My motto in life is read, read, read. The information is out there...and the nightly news ain't gonna give it to you in a four minute segment.

[clifton]

Prediction: the Supreme Court will reverse the Ninth Circuit Court Of Appeals and allow "under God" to remain in the Pledge. The decision will be 8-1 with only Justice Stevens dissenting.

Here's why: In 1961, the Supreme Court upheld Sunday blue laws as constitutional. They reasoned that closing businesses on Sunday had entered the general culture and become a secular practice. Similarly, they will reason that invocations of God in the Pledge, on our currency, in Congress, etc. have become secular in nature with only modest impact. They may allow atheists to opt out of saying "under God" during the pledge. I'll be surprised if it goes down any other way, although Justice Ginsburg may join the dissent.

Personally, I'm more concerned with Scalia's refusal to recuse himself from Sierra Club v. Cheney than with the Pledge case.

[Fran]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Noj
[B]Isn't the word "God" an English translation of a word which has the same meaning in every other language?

Every other word translated has the same meaning in everyother language



Related issue: 10 Commandments In the Courthouse--my question: who disagrees with the 10 Commandments and why?

Correction - 15 Commandments- Mel Brooks "History of the World Part I"

[Noj]

http://www.ladyofthecake.com/mel/world/images/testamn2.jpg

The Lord Jehova hath given us these 15-Oy!..10!, 10 Commandments for all to obey... :D

BTW, I was just raising questions. I favor separating Church and State, I don't practice an organized religion, and I think the Pledge Of Allegiance is worthless.

[Saundra Hummer]

Here in Oregon, granted a sparsely populated state, the shows I mentioned are on early, and are quite popular. They say we have the most watched PBS stations. I know people from all walks of life, and they all watch PBS.

I tape Ted Kopal's Nightline as a rule, channel surf between Leno and Letterman, or am in bed myself especially in the winter, as I just get tired of throwing logs in the fire, it's just warmer in bed. I don't want a television in the bedroom, so unless I am up and wide awake, I just tape everything that I don't want to miss. There are probably others that tape him too, if they aren't up late enough. More probably tape Leno, and Letterman, but they are topical, and you can learn from them as well, just a different slant. A little humor never hurt!

Granted, not enough of us take an interest in what is going on in the rest of the world, just human nature, we are interested, but perhaps not enough to work at making a difference. Not enough to want to improve others lives around the world. We'll give a lot to charity, but do we actually sacrifice to see that we actually do make a difference? Did we fund aparthied by buying the products from companies that upheld aparthied in South Africa? We say we didn't like it, but until we stopped putting our money into their stocks, and into their products, was it able to stop. How many other companies should we not be doing business with?

I don't think we are a country of total dummies, look at our accomplishments, lack of interest, and poor educations don't produce the doctors, scientists, engineers, and any number of talented people here. Our education system could improve, room for improvement in just about everything, but there are a large number of people who are informed, and will continue to be informed, but then there are the ones that just don't care, that's just the way it has always been, the way it is, and the way it will always be. We have the resources to improve our minds, and to see what is happening around the world, now with the WWW, it is all at out feet. Do we use it? I would hope so.

[Andy D]

Sandi.

Yes you may have 'serious' news but as mickey/lynn points out you have to look hard to find it. Have you read for example Norm Chomsky's 'Manufacturing Consent - The Political Economy of the Mass Media?'

Look at the way the news is framed and is written, it is writtten in my view from a dominant ideology, usually white, middle class and male ,and rarely questions this dominant discourse. The difference between liking something, and I love sport and play rugby, and becoming obsessed with it, is often when that is the majority of what people discuss. It is much easier to talk about football stats, than it is to look at the stats that are related to cuts in social services, education and public spending in general.

How many people do you think would know the current 'cuts' that your present Government has made to welfare benefits and public education, which effect the very poorest in the states? I suspect that many more would know the results of the weekends NFL fixtures.

The 'illusion' that Chomsky talks about is that we are obsessed with sport and other forms of mass culture, and while we are interested in this, it becomes much more difficult change the current situation.

How much coverage is there in the US media about America's direct involvement in the causes of many of the World's current conflicts, about it's policies on the environment which threaten the World, and it domestic policies which are seeing the poorest in Amercia suffer more and more?

Regards

Andy D.

[Saundra Hummer]

There has been a lot of coverage on the things you mention, but you are right, football is probably what was tuned into, but the coverage has been there, like how they have reported on our countries Banana boat diplomacy, how we set up the fruit companies in Central America, and how that damaged the countries chances there of having the lives of the peoples living there being worth anything. Colonialism, at least a form of it.

Countries run by American Corporations, the needs of the country not heeded in any way. One example as to how things have been reported here.

We also learned of the Kennedy's plot against the leaders of Viet Nam, and it goes on and on. We have had these issues reported to us, it is just wheter we have chosen to read about them, watch them on T.V, or read about them in periodicals and historical reference books. I don't think that we in this country are any different than any other country in the world as to our paying attention to such matters, there will always be people such as yourself who do, and then there are those that don't and never will.

We are always being told about our countries and other countries misguided and terrible policies, we all know it, or a lot of us do.

For every action there is a reaction, and we are reaping what we have sown.

[Andy D]

I can accept that some of the news you mention is out there, but if you create the interest in watching football, so that it feels abnormal if you do not then you will have some difficulty getting the message out.

I wonder how many 'serious' challenging programmes are aired at prime time TV hours for example? How how much coverage is given to what the US did in South Amercia, the Middle East and so on. For example how much debate and discussion is there about US support for Israel, and how this support continues to fuel the conflict.

Trouble is that when you begin to ask these questions you may be accused of being anti-semetic or worse, and the very powerful Jewish lobby begin to get mobilised and in the end you get very limited coverage.

I take the view that many people do not know what goes on, and in this respect the Uk is no different from the US. But this needs to be challenged, look what people like Michael Moore did and look what happened. People are interested, get a little of that interest and who knows what can happen?

Regards

Andy D.

[mickey/lynn]

Once again....when I make a statement (such as "total dummies") of course, there is no way I mean "everyone". I would like to think that most of you guys would know that I can't possibly make a statement, any statement that includes everyone! I only mean more than the majority (51%) and I think I'm being pretty fair in that estimate.


What's up Andy?

To your question "How many serious challenging programs are aired"...I can tell you..maybe one or two(in prime time on the major networks) and the major networks will only air serious programs maybe once a month. PBS airs stuff like that all the time...but no one watches. You can always catch intresting documentaries on various cable stations too, hardly anyone watches those either.) The television ratings are posted in the newspapers weekly...all you have to do is look at those and it shows you what the majority of television sets that are turned on, are watching. News programs always languish at the very bottom (No, we are not talking 20/20 or dateline...we said "serious") MOnday night football? Top ten show for the twenty or thirty years it has been on television.

Of course no one is saying that people should not watch football or other shows that they find entertaining (I love football and basketball and Comedy Central). Local and national news only devotes so much time to worldwide affairs and most Americans are not going to get off of their overweight butts to change the channel let alone go out and seek news stories about the Sudan or the uprisings in Yugoslavia.

I can agree with the statement that the people of America are not much different in their indifference to the state of the world. I won't ever try to make it seem as if there are a ton of us who really do care and know about what's happening. That just simply is not true.

[Saundra Hummer]

We, the "Western Nations" were so afraid of what our country was calling the "Domino Effect" that our leaders went overboard in trying to protect against it in Viet Nam, Central America and South America as well as other places, but whether it was this alone, is doubtful. There were so many factors at work here, again oil being the main thing.

Complicated, and stupid.

[Saundra Hummer]

I was reading the letters sent into either Time or Newsweek, two weekly news magazine here in this country, and one reader had a suggestion in one of them that made me laugh.

It was suggested that the pledge should say in place of "In God we Trust," the phrase should instead be "Under the Constitution."

Why not? It is, after all, what has made this country work.

[JazzRules]

Originally posted by synic
What are your thoughts on taking the words-"Under God" out of the "Pledge"?

Unconstitutional. It was added by Eisenhower for cold war era flagwaving.

Of course the Supreme Court lets alot of things slide, like Miranda, drug testing, police dogs and traffic stops, Gitmo detainees, high school athletes and the NFL draft, basically anything where the ends justifies the means and Constitution be damned. More of Reagan's "legacy".

[Ron Thorne]

It's presumptuous and unnecessary!