My first foray into audiodom...

[J Larsen]

Okay, this probably isn't going to really happen, but...

It turns out I somehow overpaid Uncle Sam by a consderable (for me) degree this year. If - and I mean *if*- I were going to spend say $1500 on a single component would you recommend

a) Upgrading my cheesy bought-from-Circuit-City Onkyo amp with an integrated unit

b) Upgrading my floor-standing Infinity Sterling loudspeakers

c) Waiting until I had more cash to spend on better components and getting a complete new system all at once

For years I had been leaning towards c, thinking I'd upgrade my system once I'd finally finished grad school and had a real job/real funds, *but* some of my components are starting to malfunction now, giving me reason to consider a partial upgrade sooner rather than later.

I am currently using a Technics SL1200 turntable that I am happy with, as well as a 1996/7 Phillips cd player that, at the time, was high-end as far as Circuit City type goes. I am mildly satisfied with it.

I will cheerfully admit to being completely ignorant of all things audiophile. Any advice you can give is appreciated.

[riverrat]

At the risk of sounding like I know what I'm talking about, I will reply, only because I have been shopping myself lately. I would buy these 2 things:

Sony SCD-C222ES multi-channel SACD/CD player (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3011845819&category=14975)

Paradigm Monitor 11 v3 speakers (http://www.audioreview.com/Main+Speaker/Paradigm+Monitor+11+v2/PRD_125307_1594crx.aspx)

If you had any money left over, perhaps spend it on good quality interconnects.

Unless your Onkyo amp is really old, it is probably not the weak link in your system. I've often heard that speakers give you the most bang for your buck.

I'm sure you will get many other opinions...

[jazzypaul]

1) I would usually say not to go to Circuit City, but they do carry H/K components, which, until you get into NAD's league, are the best out there. Onkyo is Japanese for "Overpriced Sony," in my opinion. If you're going to go integrated amp (amp & receiver) I HIGHLY suggest NAD. For not much more than the cost of an H/K or Onkyo, you'll get the best bang for the buck stereo equipment available anywhere in the world.

2) What would you upgrade to? Klipsch's are great speakers, as are Boston Acoustic, Cerwin/Vega, Cambridge and Polk's higher end stuff. But unless either (a) your speakers are shot or (b) you're constantly listening at volumes high enough to tell a difference, one would assume your Infinities are just fine.

3) It gets expensive to replace an entire system at once, especially going the audiophole route. for $1500, though, you could easily get a 75-100W NAD or H/K integrated amp and still have $500-750 to spare.

4) If you're only mildly satisfied with the CD player, change it! Denons are nice, but a little too finicky. Sony, for me, has always made great CD players cheap as hell with every feature you could ever want. Even more so on the ES series (their professional line). NAD CD players are great, but when they go, they GO all the way.

Happy hunting, if you need more info, feel free...

[J Larsen]

riverrat: Unfortunately, the Onkyo is pretty old - I got it in 1994. I believe it's one of the malfunctioning components. I get drop outs from time to time regardless of whether I'm playing a record or a cd. I've tried cleaning it out, but it hasn't helped much. Those speakers look like a great deal, though! $900/pair isn't much more than what I paid for my Infinities nearly 10 years ago. Had I only known what I was doing back then...

Jazzypaul: thanks for the tips!

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to get a cheap back-up rig for the next year or year and a half. At that point I'll be done with grad school and will (hopefully) be making some real money.

[clandy44]

Another alternative is to buy high quality used components. Try www.audigon.com. I bought my Rega P3 2000 table there and paid almost half what a new table would cost and mine was one year old. If you can buy a Meridian 508.20 (20 bit vs the now current 24 bit) cd player for $600 or so, leap at it. I just bought this rig and it blows me away-can no longer use my HK CDR20 for playback because the A-B comparisons are so stark. Remember that the audiphiles who are on places like Audiogon are always reaching for the holy grail of sound, which means mucho opportunities for folks like us because they are forever upgrading and willing to move their pieces at bargain prices. With your budget and some luck, you can get a pretty good setup that will blow the socks off what you have.

[Rocket #9]

J-Lar (sorry, can't help it),

I'm a replace-one-thing-at-a-time man, myself. For $1500 you can do quite well on amps, whether you want a home theater receiver that does 2-channel well and will power a good HT setup, or a simple integrated amp (amp and preamp in one unit, generally the more audiophiliac outfits don't include a tuner). I suspect you can get a reasonable amp/preamp setup.

I'm a Rotel fan. I've got a simple (and cheap) RA-971 integtared amp driving a pair of Dynaudio Audience 72s (another company I highly recommend) and they sound great, even counting the POS CD player I'm using.

I'm in the research stage now, too (HT and SACD). One site I've found to be useful without being too groovier-than-thou is audioreview.com. Real reviews written by a wide variety of people on about a million products. Good luck.

Ed

[J Larsen]

Am I wrong in thinking that there are compatability issues associated with the "replace one thing at a time" approach?

[Rocket #9]

Hey, now you're making me nervous!:D

I've never experienced any compatibility issues when replacing individual components. I'm told that some companies with "proprietary technology" try to make their components incompatible so that suckers, er, their respected customers, won't be able to play mix-and-match (I think I've heard this about B & O, but it's pure hearsay).

I think the only issue you need to look out for is that a lot of integrated amps and HT receivers no longer come with a phono input. Make sure yours does, or you'll be shopping around for a phono preamp.

Anyway, just check out the sites where people talk about their systems: most audiophiles are playing mix-and-match (which is essentially what you're doing when you replace things one at a time as they break or when you're flush) without ill effects.

Ed

[jazzypaul]

Tell me, Rocket, have I just been hearing the wrong systems, or are there actually home theater systems that sound REALLLLLY good playing music? The few that I've dealt with (Onkyo mostly, part of the reason why I hate them so much) have all processed my poor Miles, Trane and Gene Ammons records so much that they're not even fun to listen to. On the other hand, my H/K 60 watt 2 channel setup sounds fantastic playing anything. So, what's the secret to a home theatre system that sounds good playing 2 channel music?

[Rocket #9]

Originally posted by jazzypaul
Tell me, Rocket, have I just been hearing the wrong systems, or are there actually home theater systems that sound REALLLLLY good playing music? The few that I've dealt with (Onkyo mostly, part of the reason why I hate them so much) have all processed my poor Miles, Trane and Gene Ammons records so much that they're not even fun to listen to. On the other hand, my H/K 60 watt 2 channel setup sounds fantastic playing anything. So, what's the secret to a home theatre system that sounds good playing 2 channel music?

A good question. For some reason the 2 channel sound on HT receivers often doesn't seem to be up to snuff. If you're going for separates (Ka-ching!$$$) I think you can probably get whatever you want, technically speaking. Of course in my case that would leave me living in a cardboard box, so the effect might not be what I'd hoped for. As far as HT receivers go (stop me if you've heard this one...), there are often various sound modes where your music is massaged to create some sort of effect (fake surround, fake church, fake stadium, and so on). Perhaps you heard Miles, Trane, and Jug thusly processed and were rightly horrified. By the way, apparently if you let your receiver do this to a SACD signal you've completely destroyed whatever virtues SACD has; this is digital and SACD is analog (may Greg strike me down if I'm wrong about this.:D ).

Of course, the Onkyo may just stink at 2 channel, lots of HT receivers seem to. However, if you're spending in the $1500 range, you start finding HT receivers which seem to do well at 2 channel. The one I'm agonizing over is the Rotel RSX-1055 ($1299 list, I think). All reports I've read are very complimentary on the 2 channel sound. I guess the difference is the legendary and elusive "build quality". You stick all that stuff in a box (five discrete amps, heat sinks, processors, etc.) and it's easy to go wrong or cut corners, all of which lead to "Starship Troopers" (the one with the bugs, not the Yes song) sounding good and your sonically more delicate Miles, Trane, and Jug sounding not-so-good.

Please note that I'm no audiophile, I'm just a guy who tries to do a lot of research when attempting to pick out new components. Also, dealers in Southeast Asia are hardly as forthcoming as the mythical ones one reads about in audiophile magazines or reviews (you know, those kindly gents who are happy to loan you multithousand dollar items for you to test at length in the privacy of your own home). Consequently, I have to base a lot of decisions on reviews, friends' systems, my own limited experience, and a certain amount of in-shop testing.

In this case, I own a Rotel, friends own Rotels, and the reviews are good. Also, I think buying from a dealer you think is honest is important. If he/she thinks a HT system stinks at 2 channel (admittedly, an opinion you're more likely to get at a high-end store than at a Best Buy), than he/she can steer you to something better, and not necessarily more expensive.

By the way, Rotel's weak points are usually ergonomics and remotes; I've never seen/heard complaints about the sound.

Sorry if this went on and on. This topic gets pretty involved for an ordinary Joe who isn't an engineer or a mind-already-made-up audiophile.

Ed

[Kevin Bresnahan]

$1500 = B&W DM604 Series 3 speakers

Go give them a listen. You will probably be taking them home. I recommend the JRVG of Pete LaRoca's "Basra" or the XRCD of Tatum's "With Ben Webster" for listening.:)

BTW, I agree on the HK two channel receivers. Good bang for the buck.

Later,
Kevin

[jazzypaul]

Ed,

1) anyone with a name referencing a Sun Ra tune can ramble on as much as they want...LOL!

2) Thanks for the tips. Personally, I'm an avowed NAD freak, and the only reason I went H/K instead was because at the time, the only NAD dealer around me was managed and stocked with big 'ol snooty assholes who looked down on me when I brought in ESP and White Light/White Heat to test their systems (any system that can handle Sister Ray at high volume gets high marks from me...LOL). So I walked, went to Barrett's and got the H/K instead, and have been pleased for quite some time. The part that pissed me off is that the newest H/K HT systems have no phono jack, and those phono pre-amps have always been a joke to me. Part of me just wants to run a completely separate HT setup, then I can listen to the starship troopers with the bugs or the starship troopers with the Jon Anderson. I'm starting to realize however, that having my cake and eating it too is still going to be an expensive undertaking.

[J Larsen]

jazzypaul's post reminds me of another question I had. Does anyone have good recommendations for cds to use to audition audio equipment with? Never having been directly exposed to serious equipment, I really don't know what I might have on many of my cds!

[jazzypaul]

Any album that can really test the highs and lows of a system. The keys are...

1) No or very little hissing during quiet passages.

2) How well does it handle heavy bass?

3) Conversely, how does it handle those high C's on the trumpet?

4) Does it sound as good really loud as it does when its really quiet?

Personally, I use E.S.P. for the fact that Miles' mid 60's Columbia output tends to really bring out the best in a system. Can I hear AND feel Ron Carter's bass? Does Tony's snare pop out at you? Does the system feel muddy during Wayne's solos? These may all seem somewhat trivial, but I've been able to weed out a hell of a lot of systems using that criteria.

Once those have been weeded out, then I move onto White Light/White Heat. Two tunes in particular really tend to stretch a system. The Gift, which has COMPLETELY different things going on on the left and right sides, is a good test for signal separation/signal bleed. And, the aforementioned Sister Ray, which is kinda like Art-Rock warfare, can really push the limits of a system at mid-high volume.

Those are mine. Others use classical music. One guy I know uses the original version of China Cat Sunflower by the Grateful Dead. There are many ways to skin a cat. Find yours and start hunting. That can be the most fun part of audiophile purchases. Of course, I say this, knowing that I am a geek.

[Rocket #9]

When I was auditioning speakers I burned a disc of very mixed selections of familiar favorites so I could put the candidates through their paces under actual combat conditions, as it were.

Some rock: "Don't Fear the Reaper" by BOC, so I could hear what Buck sounded like, "Destination Moon"" by They Might be Giants to see how the bells sounded.

Some jazz: "Moanin'" by Mingus, to hear my favorite baritone sax part by Pepper Adams, "I'm Gonna Move to the Outskirts of Town" By the Basie Band, a good example of classic big band sound, "Nothin' but the Blues" by Manone, et al., to hear how Bunny's trumpet would sound.

Some classical, in particular the Nimrod section of Elgar's "The Enigma Variations".

And of course, "Take Me Back to Tulsa" by Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys, to make sure Bob's fiddle and Tommy Duncan were coming througfh loud and clear.

There were others, but I gave away the disc and forget them now.

Anyway, pick stuff you know really well; if it's Miles, Trane, and Jug, then go for it.

Let me put in another plug for Dynaudio: not everyone has them, but my Audience 72 (a floorstanding model) cost me $1400 after discount (how's that for commodification?). They beat the B&Ws in a straight up test (I'm not badmouthing B&W, they make great products, but there appear to be definite Dynaudio and B&W camps among listeners), and I would have needed to spend another couple grand to do better. I've never been disappointed in them and they sound great on a wide variety of music. You may prefer the B&Ws, but Dynaudio has good products in the same price classes, so they're worth a listen.

Ed

[J Larsen]

Does anyone know anything about this integrated amp? The price tag ($400) is appealing.

And while I'm at it, any thoughts on Music Hall or Cambridge Audio cd players? Are JVC cd players decent? I was just flipping through a catalog and noticed that these brands are quite affordable. Thanks again for all the help.

[Rocket #9]

Originally posted by J Larsen
Does anyone know anything about this integrated amp? The price tag ($400) is appealing.

And while I'm at it, any thoughts on Music Hall or Cambridge Audio cd players? Are JVC cd players decent? I was just flipping through a catalog and noticed that these brands are quite affordable. Thanks again for all the help.

There are 31 reviews on the NAD at audioreview.com. You may be able to do better on price, and there's no phono input.

Ed

[J Larsen]

Thanks. The lack of phono input kills it for me. I really don't want to have to buy *two* new components - that was sort of the whole point in going the integrated route.

Edit to add: It seems that no NAD integrated amps have phono jacks. Can anyone recommend a company in the NAD price range (~$500, less is better), offering similar quality integrated amps with phono jacks? Thanks.

[jazzypaul]

harmon Kardon.

[J Larsen]

Right, thanks. That's likely the route I'll go. Has anyone heard Cambridge Audio integrated amps? The lack of a headphone jack is a bit of a bummer, but if the sound is really good, I might be able to live with that.

Poking around on the web tonight I stumbled across Magnepan speakers for the first time. I think they look pretty cool, and it's definately an intriguing concept (though *clearly* outside of my current budget). Has anyone heard them?

[SEK]

Addressing a few concerns at once:

I think NAD makes the best gear for the money of anyone around. I had a 60W/channel NAD (3300 PE) that I used constantly for 15 years. It still works fine, but I bought a 120W/channel NAD C370 last year, mostly for the remote. The sound of the C370 is a bit more neutral and nuanced, and it has much more power than I need.

My old NAD had a decent phono section built in, but the new NAD integrateds are just line level. However, the NAD add-on phono stage sounds quite nice.

When I was searching for a new CD player to replace my old Phillips, I started looking among players in the under-$1000 range but ended up auditioning most of the under-$1500 range, with the much-more-expensive Audio Research CD2 thrown in as a ringer. After listening to models by Arcam, Rega, Cambridge Audio, Music Hall, Rotel, Roksan, NAD, Creek, and a variety of more mass-market players, the Audio Research unit did sound better to me than the others. However, I ranked both the NAD C541i ($500 retail) and the Rotel 971 ($700 retail) next in line, and above all the rest. $200 (actually closer to $300) buys a lot of CDs, so I ended up with a NAD C541i. Your mileage may vary, so audition prospective CD players, and/or any new components with nice recordings that you are familiar with, preferably at home or within systems you can assess.

I've found that the biggest audible differences are among speakers. It's a very personal thing which ones sound best. I have a definite preference for the open, "natural" (to me, at least), non-fatiguing sound of Vandersteen speakers. Magnepan speakers are also nice but are rather power hungry. Maggies also have more particular placement requirements than most speakers. Most other speakers (including B&Ws, which I was very impressed by when I was much younger) now excite my tinnitus and/or lack the smooth extended range and the 3-D quality to which I've become accustomed.

I've tended to replace components one piece at a time, with no compatibility issues, after some very basic research.

My system:
NAD C370 120 W/channel integrated amplifier
Vandersteen 1C speakers
ACI Titan II LE subwoofer
NAD C541i cd player
Pioneer PDR-609 cd recorder
Sony TC-KA1ES cassette tape deck
Carver TX-2 FM/AM tuner
Bang & Olufsen RX2 turntable with MMC2 cartridge w/line-contact stylus
Monster HTS2000 power conditioner
Various ICs and cables: happen to be mostly DH Labs and Acoustic Research, but no big thang to me (audiophile fighting words)...

[blake]

I'm a bit late to the thread but perhaps I can offer some options that may not have been mentioned yet.

As for integrated amps, some entry level high-end brands not yet mentioned but worth exploring include Musical Fidelity, Arcam, Denon, and Parasound. I believe all of these companies offer models with a phono input.

If you're not averse to buying on the Web, I stumbled upon what could be an exceptionally good deal. Harman Kardon is clearing out their remaining stock of HK3470 receivers. This model was discontinued in 2002 and replaced by the HK3475 this year. The HK On-line store lists it for just $188 (www.harmanaudio.com). There's a 30 day no questions asked refund policy so if you're not happy with the sound, send it back. I have no personal experience with this model but it's unlikely you'll find a better deal for the price.

As for speakers, one of my favorite entry level high-end brands going is a Canadian company called Energy (www.energy-speakers.com). What is it about Canadians and speaker prowess? They continually receive rave reviews from audiophile mags (all accessible through their website). Check out the Connoisseur C5s. There may not be a better speaker value.

[J Larsen]

Thanks Blake - based on what everyone has said I think I'll jump on that deal. $188 is dirt cheap. I'm embarassed to admit it, but I think that's less than half of what I paid for my Onkyo.

[jazzypaul]

shifting into home theater for a sec, did you see the AVR1000 on the H/K site for $150? I think I'm gonna have to redesign how I do my A/V stuff now...LOL...

[J Larsen]

I'm assuming that home theater amps aren't too good for stereos? Home theater is an area I really know nothing about.

[jazzypaul]

I wouldn't suggest it. I run two completely different setups, and never shall the two meet. I'm sure, somewhere there is a rig that works well for both situations, but I have yet to see one in my price range. Not to mention, you'll probably never find an A/V receiver with a phono input.

[Rocket #9]

Originally posted by SEK
It still works fine, but I bought a 120W/channel NAD C370 last year, mostly for the remote.

Wow!

I'm going to try this one on my wife. Thanks a million for the idea!:D :D :D

Jazzypaul and J Larsen,

I believe one of the recently discontinued Sony ES models had a phono input. If it's still around it's gotta be cheaper than the new model. Also, some of the older Sonys are reputedly better than the "improved" models.

Ed

[jomina]

At the risk of sounding like I know what I'm talking about...
1) go second hand / ex demo - you will find mucho good stuff going for not much.
2) listen to everything before you buy, and then understand that it will sound different when you take it home.
3) put some money aside for things like decent speaker stands etc. (but expensive cables are a myth. Belden studio wire is wot you need)
4) Do not under any circumstances believe what other people tell you is good or bad. Does it sound good to you... That's all that counts.
6) forget about SACD / DVD A. It's all audiophool fluff. It ain't that much better than trad CD, and the software isn't there.
7) avoid surround sound. Two speakers are hard enough to get right, already. Spend the money on one pair of good speakers rather than lots of bad ones. Your ears will thank you.
8) It da music wot counts. Don't spend too much on hardware.

All that out the way, a few pointers...

If the CDP is still working well and if (big if this) it has a 75ohm digital (or SPDIF) output on the back, look into getting yourself a nice cheap studio DA converter (M-audio do a very nice one for about 150 bucks).

An amp is nice. A nice amp is nicer. A nice second hand amp is nicest of all ( I have several :rolleyes: ) Don't get bogged down by brands, companies like Sony and Technics (yes, even) used to make quite good amps that can be had now for a pittance s/h. Plenty of good US/Canadian made gear, too. You will hear talk of things called tubes, these may be for later (or not - I'm not a fan: mushy "dynamics" unless you have the money/space for seriously huge speakers).

Speakers are tricky. My preference is for British BBC-style monitors (Harbeth/Spendor). These are extremely neutral and rather revealing speakers (designed and used for broadcasting). This is a very good thing, but... they also brutally reveal deficiencies further up the chain - which is partly what they were designed to do. They also need hefty and quite special stands (open frame) and need to be kept far far away from walls etc...

IMMHO, deep bass is less important than getting the midband right - this is where 90% of the action is.
A small speaker may not go very deep (maybe 60~70hz), but your brain can fill the rest of the bass. A poor midband simply ruins the music IMMHO.

The US speakers that I like are very expensive and large - JBL's studio monitors, Westlake, old Altecs and Westrex cinema systems (ooh yes). US "hifi" speakers are ummm.... (a question of taste I suppose).

Don't buy the speakers simply because they sounded brighter and clearer during a 10-minute dealer demo. Lots of speakers are designed for demos, and are not nice to listen to for long periods.

And of course, your room acoustic has a huge impact :confused: This can be an expensive upgrade. OTOH for 200+ bucks you can get a Behringer digital parametric room equalizer that will improve things no end if your room's acoustic is truely bad.

That doesn't really begin to cover it. Audiogon is good to bowse for s/h gear and accessories, And, shameless plug, my site www.groovehandle.org is an audio site where more jazzers are very welcome. It is a bit Brit, though...

edited to add:
At all costs avoid "receivers", these are the work of the devil.

[SEK]

jomina, you'd be flamed by many of the folks ("audiophools" indeed) at sites like Audiogon or Audio Asylum, because you apparently have too much sense. Thanks! I'll go register at Groovehandle.

[jomina]

Thanks SEK! You are most welcome. I forgot to mention that groovehandle is a bit, ah, anarchic, and we all disagree wildly with each other over there...
(I am the Joel on that forum).
There are a few of us on here, too BTW.

[LeMo]

To J. Larsen.

I own currently a pair of Magnepan 1.6 QR.

I am what a hifi reviewer call himself a "Magnepan kind of guy".
For me and for the money they respectively cost, every Magnepan in his category is the best speaker possible for his price.

The technology is different than the "usual speakers" but the result is nearly always of superior quality.

For the rest, I don't know what to tell you.

If you have question feel free to ask.

[GA Russell]

It's been a few years now since I went window shopping at high end retailers, but since you have $1500. to drop on one component...

If it were me, I'd get a Linn turntable. The dealer would be able to recommend a cartridge best suited for the table.

[jomina]

For $1500, I think you could get a very nice second hand Linn LP12 with all (most, some???) the bits. New, I believe they are closer to $4k... They do have a reputation for being difficult to set up properly.
I found my Rega hard to setup right, and that is supposed to be as easy as TTs get, but that is more a reflection of my mechanical incompetance than anything.
There are other TTs out there, so anyone looking should not restrict themselves to looking at just one brand.
That said, the differences between TTs are very real, and more pronounced than between most CDPs IMO.
The choice and price of the software makes it all worthwhile, though.