are the taken seriously by jazz fans?

[3pointdeli]

how do you feel that jazz fans view people like bill bruford, alex scolnick, charlie watts, ginger baker and other musicians who've made names for themselves by playing rock or pop, but have since turned to playing jazz? are their concerts attended by jazz fans? or do they draw, primarily, fans of their rock output?

[3pointdeli]

oops...meant to say "are THEY taken seriously by jazz fans?"

[Muskrat Ramble]

Btw, you forget Andy Summers of the Police in that list :) Lots of rock musicians have exceptional technical skills and lots of musical imagination, so in theory, I think it's great that they apply their talents to jazz.

[3pointdeli]

yeah, that's what i meant by "...and other musicians."

[DustyFoot]

The one that's blown me away recently is Jeff Healy. For those unfamiliar with him, he's the blind guitar virtuoso who made it big in the late 80's and 90's (he appeared in the movie 'Roadhouse'). He has converted to jazz in a big way, in fact, what I have heard of his new material sounds like traditional dixieland stuff. He was a big hit at the jazz festival here in Halifax last summer. I suppose his name would draw a potential rock audience, but I am quite sure that some of these folks must have left the show scratching their heads. He may not be doing his career any favours but based on the 2 or 3 tunes I have heard played on Canadian radio, he sounds like he's playing legitimate jazz music (if I can use that term!) I was quite fascinated also in that addition to several different instruments, he plays a trombone!

Whereas someone like Bill Bruford has always, to me anyway, played 'jazzy' in a rock context, the Healy scenario is more like an about-face. I think it's safe to assume he has two fan bases now, the jazz audience and the rock audience. I can't imagine a fan of traditional jazz not taking him seriously.

[Bev Stapleton]

Look at the jazz musicians who've played with these people. They take them seriously (I'm sure Ralph Towner and Eddie Gomez didn't record with Bruford for the money!). By all accounts the UK musicians who play in Watt's big band love the experience - even Evan Parker plays in it sometimes!

I'm sure there's a certain type of jazz fan who does not take them seriously because of their backgrounds. The loss is all theirs.

[3pointdeli]

that's a good point about the guys they play with. i hadn't considered that.

also, i didn't know that jeff healey was doing jazz now. that's pretty interesting.

[omar zamora]

Bev,

I'm not that familiar with Bruford's work, but I'm curious why you're sure Gomez and Towner didn't record with him for the money. I'm not countering that - I'm just curious why you think that.

[Bev Stapleton]

Well I'm sure they were happy to receive their cheques for their days of work but I doubt if it was a prime motive ("Oh, look, a rock star. Let's record with him and make a fortune.") I'm not sure the disc in question ("If Summer Had Its Ghosts") sold all that well - I've only seen it in the shops occasionally.

Towner clearly has some connections with UK musicians. I saw him in a quartet that included John Taylor and Tim Garland about ten years ago (long before Garland started playing with Corea or Joe Locke). A few years back he toured the UK in a quartet with Taylor, Norma Winstone and Steve Swallow. And he's recently recorded with Taylor and Italian singer Maria Pia De Vito.

So I'd say his motives were more to do with an affinity with the music of such musicians.

Bruford started out as a jazz nut and seems to have found his way back there after all these years. Strangely his current quartet has a new saxophonist. None other than...Tim Garland.

Didn't Ginger Baker have a group with Charlie Haden a while back?

[jazzypaul]

Ginger was the reason I started playing drums in the first place. Ginger led a few interesting groups a few years back...the one with Charlie Haden and Bill Frisell put out one of the best jazz albums of modern times (Going Back Home) and one of the worst jazz albums I have EVER heard (Falling off the Roof). He also led another quintet from his homebase of Denver with Ron Miles on trumpet. That was a pretty interesting little group. The U.S. kicked him out of the country a couple of years ago, and now he's living in South Africa.

[king ubu]

this was discussed some time ago on the BNBB: Joni Mitchell's "Mingus" album, which blew me away! I first heard it only 2 weeks or so ago and I really do like it. Great band (which is maybe quite often the main reason why jazz-nuts like singers/musicians otherwise operating in rock/pop/funk or whatever musical surroundings?) and great songs. Love when she does Handy's Pork-Pie Hat saxophone solo!

I got some (only 20 minutes though) air-checks of Summer's Mingus-project (feat. Darryl Jones, can't remember the drummer, Lenny White, maybe?) which I like a lot. Came totally unexpected for me, as I have not indulged in much other than jazz for the last couple of years.

Some later stuff by the great (and not too often discussed here) Roland Kirk seems to me to be closer to popular music than jazz (Blacknuss, the Warner stuff on the 32jazz double-disc, also some other atlantics)

ubu

[3pointdeli]

Originally posted by omar zamora
Bev,

I'm not that familiar with Bruford's work, but I'm curious why you're sure Gomez and Towner didn't record with him for the money. I'm not countering that - I'm just curious why you think that.


i would imagine bruford doesn't have as much money as you'd think. he was only in a "hit" band (and i use that term loosely) for a few years...and that was over 30 years ago. i'm sure he lives comfortably, but he's probably not in a position to write big checks, especially considering how often he releases new material.

[D.D.]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli



i would imagine bruford doesn't have as much money as you'd think. he was only in a "hit" band (and i use that term loosely) for a few years...and that was over 30 years ago. i'm sure he lives comfortably, but he's probably not in a position to write big checks, especially considering how often he releases new material.

Wait till we get to discussing King Crimson and RF...;)

This reminds me of Vinnie Colaiuta, an astonishing drummer (I remember reading an interview with Peter Erskine (not a slouch either) in which he admits that he can't think of anybody in the history of jazz drumming doing the stuff Vinnie does and he can't even figure out HOW Vinnie possibly does it), who has recorded on hundreds of records, mostly in pop context (Sting) and should be quite content with his financial situation and probably command hefty prices for his sevices.
So, Vinnie participated as a sideman on Buell Neidlinger's 'Big Drum' CD, which is quite an uncompromising free date.

No they are not in it (only) for the money!

'Big Drum' is an amazing record, by the way...

[3pointdeli]

Originally posted by D.D.


Wait till we get to discussing King Crimson and RF...;)




i'm game if you are. :)


btw, i wouldn't be too concerned with towner and gomez's ability to keep food on their tables.

[Bev Stapleton]

KC used to come up frequently in 'the old place.' Probably worth a thread of their own here when the threads have filled up a bit. Don't want to overdo the non-jazz just yet. In time...

I don't think Bruford can be doing too badly given the constant reissues of Yes and KC material. I put a little more in his bank balance by buying the recent 'Fragile' reissue in order to get the marvellous version of 'America', a track I've not heard since the mid-70s when I had it on a cheapo Atlantic compilation.

[BeRiGaN]

Originally posted by 3pointdeli
oops...meant to say "are THEY taken seriously by jazz fans?"
Because of my bad typing skills, I know this...if you edit your first post on this thread, you should be able to ad the "y"!:)

[3pointdeli]

thanks! i'll get around to that one of these days.

[3pointdeli]

last night i watched my bruford/earthworks dvd, "footloose in nyc." the audience was scanned by the camera several times. it appeared to me that the audience was full of aging prog-rock fans. that brings me back to my original question: are folks like bruford given a fair shake by the jazz audience, or are they stuck playing to fans of their past glories?

[Bev Stapleton]

How do you tell the difference between an aging prog-rock fan and an aging jazz fan? I suspect in many cases they are one and the same!

I know he packed out the theatre at a jazz festival I attended last year. I didn't notice my neighbours wearing capes, loon pants and platform shoes! Or entering the theatre on ice!

[jazzypaul]

The "problem" with Bruford may be not that jazz fans don't take him seriously, as much as they don't know he exists in a jazz context. Earthworks records aren't exactly on major labels getting full page ads in Down Beat. The prog-rockers know him, and I pity the drummers that don't know him, but how many jazzers are going to know about him when we're bombarded with re-issue this, young lion that and the other thing? I can tell you, however, that everyone that I've played "Footloose and Fancy Free" for has fallen for it immediately, hook, line and sinker.

The same could probably be said for Alex Skolnick as well. The man and his trio CAN swing. They're just playing a different repetoire. Again, marketing wise, he was an absolute moron. Can't find his disc anywhere in stores, I don't remember seeing any advertising for it, but, when you play those tunes for people, they dig on it big time. It's just a matter of (a) playing it and (b) letting them figure out the significance of those tunes on their own. A lot of people might be turned off by a latin-tinged version of a Scorpions tune, but if they just hear a nice bossa nova, they might be a little more willing to spend some more time with it.

[3pointdeli]

Originally posted by Bev Stapleton
How do you tell the difference between an aging prog-rock fan and an aging jazz fan? I suspect in many cases they are one and the same!

I know he packed out the theatre at a jazz festival I attended last year. I didn't notice my neighbours wearing capes, loon pants and platform shoes! Or entering the theatre on ice!

i knew someone was going to ask that. i didn't prepare an answer...or a punch line. all i know is that i've been to three king crimson concerts, a yes concert and many (not enough) jazz concerts and, like it or not, there IS a difference that is noticable to those who have the gift of sight. the audience on the bruford dvd looked exactly like the audience at the king crimson concerts i've attended (seriously, it's uncanny.)

btw, what are "loon pants"?

[clinthopson]

Those cats may be competent rockers, but that's like taking a short order cook at Denny's seriously as a chef.

Jazz requires grey cells, most rock just requires a few synapses.

Of course the drug and sex part of the 60's rock scene was wonderful

[3pointdeli]

Originally posted by clinthopson
Those cats may be competent rockers, but that's like taking a short order cook at Denny's seriously as a chef.

Jazz requires grey cells, most rock just requires a few synapses.

Of course the drug and sex part of the 60's rock scene was wonderful

that's weak.

[kh1958]

I went to see Andy Summers at Birdland a couple of years ago, and to my great surprise, he was excellent, playing mostly Monk and Mingus compositions, plus a few of his own. I've enjoyed The Last Dance of Mr. X and the Mingus album (the name escapes me at the moment) quite alot.

[Finger Poppin']

If anythings, what these musicans do is exposed the rock followers to jazz, and hopefully they will remain jazz fans.

[marxmarvelous]

I love Baker's work with both Haden/Frisell and with his earlier stuff with Bill Laswell.