Stylism vs. sound improvisation

[Pharaohrock]

It seems to me that in jazz you have a number of soloists who are clearly "stylists" with a very characteristic sound, and yet who might not have as sound an approach to improvisation as others who aren't quite as distinctive. It's obviously not always either/or, but there often does seem to be this tradeoff......

Some examples of great jazz stylists (with questionable greatness as pure improvisers):

- Miles Davis
- Grant Green
- McCoy Tyner
- Gene Harris
- Kenny Garrett
- Terence Blanchard

And of, conversely, fine improvisers who don't/didn't really have a strong, undeniably distinctive stylistic sound...

- Hank Jones
- Gigi Gryce
- Hank Mobley
- Jimmy Heath
- Jim Hall
- Joe Lovano
- Dave Liebman


What do you think of this understanding? Off-base? Do you see something in it? I don't mean to make a strict duality out of all musicians being one or the other, because in my mind the best musicians combine both stylism and improv. ability, e.g. Stan Getz, Parker, Trane, Dolphy.........the thing is, the pure stylists are the cats the people love the most though......Grant Green, Miles, Gene Harris, Kenny Garrett......all "people's choices." Stylism is the jazz equivalent of pop appeal it would seem.

[jazzypaul]

There is something to it Pharoahrock. I think Lovano most definitely is instantly recognizable, as is Mobley, and I would've definitely put Ornette in with the stylists, so we may disagree about who goes where, but you are dead on in your observation.

[Pharaohrock]

Do you find that the more slick stylists like Garrett or Blanchard often are not really the greatest improvisers though? Or can one not generalize there in your opinion? I happen to think there's a pretty strong correlation...

[jazzypaul]

I think more than anything else, Blanchard and Garrett have kind of pigeonholed themselves into one thing. One thing that they do very well, of course, and I don't think it's a situation where style comes before substance, but I do think that their style has become their subsance, if that makes any sense.

[Pharaohrock]

That's a good way of putting it- "their style has become their substance."

[Pharaohrock]

I was reminded of this thread because I listened to one two many records with Ernie Watts on them tonight.....I like his thing in small doses but man, talk about stylism fatigue....ditto Terence Blanchard, and Osby to a lesser extent.

[jazzypaul]

wow -- Pharaohrock takes a swipe at Osby. Even a little one. mark down this day in history...

When Ernie is pushed, he plays nice. But nobody pushes anymore. I think this is the case with Blanchard, maybe as well. Osby and Moran, I think, are fleshing something out, though. Which makes it a little harder to just dismiss as stylistic fatigue.

[Pharaohrock]

Oh man, the weird thing about Osby for me is that I like the creativity of his music a helluva lot but I am less fond of him as a soloist....he's a good improviser, but the nasal thing and the kind of unending ominous feeling his solos give me aren't pluses in my mind. That said, I don't see Kenny Garrett playing his kind of music anytime soon, so you make your bed and lay in it.

[andreimatorin]

I dont the think the "good approach to improvising" part is necessary. To me, style is all that I care about. I dont listen to someone because i like their approach, but their sound and style is what i listen to. IMO the approach part is only a means to achieve the style you want. If you can achieve that style without the approach, then it doesn't matter. The approach is what you do at home for hours, you practice it. But when it's time to perform it's only there to help bring out your Style...

[Pharaohrock]

Mmm, I think we're arguing semantics. When I'm talking about stylism it's in a slightly less-than-positive light. Certain players are overstylized- that is, their improvisation tends to gravitate too much towards the trademark things that they do such that they don't seem to have much depth as an improviser. They seem like they are content to say the same things over again and not explore new ideas. Now the things they do may be sensational in and of themselves, but this listener for one gets fatigued from one-trick stylists like a Terence Blanchard or an Ernie Watts. Instantly recognizable stylists, but I never hear all that much depth in their solos.....maybe because they're trying too hard to be consistent to a style?? Sonny Rollins certainly doesn't have that problem. I don't think stylism is really a consideration of his actually....

[andreimatorin]

ok... i might as well delete my previous post because i didn't have a clue:( .
Now that i do however, i have to agree with you... I can't stand listen to musicians who do not have a lot of depth in their improvisation. They always play their riffs and u can almost anticipate when they'll pull certain tricks out. A lot of Grapelli's stuff i tend to put under this category. I would hear the same riff several times during every solo. Some might call that a motif, but i have to disagree when it's on every song on a record, accross various albums. Of course, not all of his stuff was like that, but he popped to mind.

[champjams]

It seems that you proceed with your discussion without a true understanding of what Jazz really is and, more importantly, what is the meaningfulness and intent of Jazz as it was concieved by the original framers. Terrance Blanchard is a mere child, Osby is invalid, and Garret is largely manufactured by his own press.

To discuss style over substance is in and of itself a flaw. None of you even agree on what you mean by "style," and even if you could explain it, it would be irrelevant, because you have missed the point of the music itself, and that is: that it is not about musicians who see the music as a way of expressing music - but, it is about musicians who have a particular perspective on life that is reflected in the music they play. The greatest musicians of all time, as we know history, whether Jazz, classical, country, etc., etc., - all have recurring themes in their presentation of the drama of life through their music. To discount these would be to discount the artist and the music and the piont of view itself. This is absurd. Why don't you people talk to some Jazz musicians before you spout these volumous amounts of b.s.?

[andreimatorin]

I just think that there are some artists who have more depth to their improvising than others. If u put it to the extreme, IMO there's the people who memorize a whole bunch of licks and riffs, and just spit them out when they improvise. The other extreme is the person to whom music comes completely spontaneously during improvisation. I'd rather listen to the latter...

[Pharaohrock]

Thanks for setting us straight Champjams. You really put that well and I feel so enlightened. Gosh, where did I ever get off talking about stylism- every bent note that Terence Blanchard plays is a reflection of some deep inner meaning! Shame on me! I thought I could just listen from a listener's perspective on repetitiveness and lack of soloing depth. I guess I need to account for the soloists experience as well. Doh!

[andreimatorin]

I HATE SARCASM. I wish people could just come out and say what they mean. It's artificial, and it implies a sense of superiority. It's a way to make fun of someone else without doing it blatantly... O well

food for thought

[champjams]

well, I didn't recognize that as sarcasm. I completely agree, and thought it was a very sobering response. And if it is sarcasm, I guess I'm not shallow enough to notice it.

[andreimatorin]

why do u have to start insulting people? what did i say? just cause i recognize sarcasm it means i'm shallow? how does that even make sense...
maybe i was wrong maybe it wasn't sarcastic...
but i'm just here to try and have a decent conversation, which is hard to do when people use sarcasm and even worse when we start insulting each other...

you might not have recognized the sarcasm because it was directed to u. it makes it harder sometimes, only pharao can tell 4 sure tho

[jazzypaul]

Andrei, you have to understand, champjams is an Okie from Muskogee. She doesn't know any better. A little manners, a little tact and a couple of Kenny Garrett albums and she'll be better. But, until then, all we can do is pat her little head and just know that we're better than her...

[champjams]

Jay McShann was from Muskogee. Oklahoma produced some of the most legedary musicians in this music. Aside from that tidbit of knowledge that you are unaware of - your reference to Kenny Garret, whom I deem about as influential as Kenny G, shows that you truly are extremely shallow when it comes to the subject of this higher art form we call Jazz.

[jazzypaul]

Oh champjams, if you only even knew...

and to deem Kenny Garrett un-influential as an 18 year old, if you are the future of jazz, I'm taking jazz hostage so those of us with some heart and imagination can make the best of it. Damn, 18 year olds who don't get the idea that jazz should grow. Makes me sick to my stomach.

[champjams]

I'm trying to understand your post, but I think all I can really say is....people like you have too much spare time.

You and Kenny Garret are on equal footing, in asmuch as Jazz is concerned. Therefore, if you deify Kenny Garret, then you too are a God. I wash my hands of your triteness, and hope that someday you can effectively negotiate the Blues in Bb.

[jazzypaul]

I'm a drummer, I can negotiate blues in F# if need be...

[champjams]

very funny. we're all here rolling on the floor laughing. just curious, jazzypaul, when was the last time you had a personal interaction with a real Jazz musician...and what bit of information of truth came from it?

[jazzypaul]

If by real, you mean famous, I chatted with Malachi Thompson, Houston Person and Tim Green this past week. The week before was Jodie Christian and Lee Konitz. This coming week, I've got time scheduled for Ka'hil El'Zabar. I glean knowledge from them whenever I get a chance. What they look for from drummers, what makes them tick, what's going through their heads when they're playing. That's just in the last two weeks. Need me to keep going?

(by the way, I SO apologize for the name dropping!!!) (again, apologize...)

[champjams]

My only response to your name dropping is that it reminds me of something I heard a young tenor player once say...."My listening goes all the way back to John Coltrane." So perhaps you don't know exactly what I mean by real Jazz musicians.

[jazzypaul]

If by real jazz musicians, you mean Duke, Billie, Lester, Roy Eldridge and others, no I haven't spoken to them, they're dead. But you'd be ridiculously out of touch if you think that I didn't listen to Duke's comping and glean something from that. You'd be insane to think that I never spent any time listening to Nat Cole's timing and groove or Billie's nuance. Roy Eldridge's phrasing and Don Cherry's attitude have all influenced my drumming. Don't think for a second that I haven't listened to this music from King Oliver to Cecil Taylor. Don't think for a second that I take this music anything short of dead serious. I wouldn't put my rep as a player and as a historian of this music on the line if I wasn't. Ask before you accuse. You'll learn a lot more that way.

[champjams]

I don't have to ask, you've just admitted that you've never talked to a Jazz musician. Alot of them are alive. If you do take this music seriously, then contact some Jazz musicians.

Clark Terry
Jay McShann
Richard Davis
Oscar Peterson
Louis Bellson
Victor Lewis
Buster Williams
Ed Thigben
Curtis Fuller
Rufus Reid
John Hicks
Lou Donaldson
Barry Harris
Lonnie Smith
Hank Jones

They all have telephones.

[jazzypaul]

I think Malachi Thompson and Lee Konitz would be rather pissed to hear that they're not considered jazz musicians. And as for your list, I've spoken to most of them, a few of them at length, and I can easily triple that list. But what's the point, champjams? What is it that you're trying to prove? Because so far, you've proven nothing, and really, honestly, said nothing.

[Pharaohrock]

Champjams, you fucked up. Both Buster Williams and John Hicks have played plenty, PLENTY- of music that doesn't meet your expectation for the kind of music jazz musicians ought to be playing.

No YOU talk to them Champie.

Go and ask John Hicks if he's ashamed of all those sadass avant-garde projects he did with David Murray or Chico Freeman. Ask him if he's only cool playing with Arthur Blythe if they're gonna be playing Pent-up House and Caravan (oh wait, Caravan doesn't really swing!!)

Go and ask Buster Williams if he knows he was wrong for playing with Herbie's Mwandishi outfit and why his current trio w/Geri Allen and Lenny White plays with all those goddamn rock meters. Yeah, and be sure to ask him whether he thinks it was a sin for playing electric bass.

Sucka. Get the f*ck out talking all of this shit. You came back here just to get something off your chest and at everyone's expense. You've had this revelation about jazz necessarily having blues and swing and now you want to ram it down everyone's throats. Good for you. I'm happy you've found a cause in life. Actually, I think Lincoln Center (the last great hope of jazz, right?) might be hiring people to work in their ticket office....there would be plenty of down time so you can go in chat rooms and talk shit about Kenny Garrett being no better than Kenny G, and spew all kinds of misinformation as you're inclined to do.

Buster Williams....shit. you don't even bother to make a good argument in the process of beating your soapbox so loud.

[champjams]

Pharoah, your examples of Jazz musicians who have done some strange gigs, or recorded some bad records, has very little meaning to me - as it probably has very little meaning to them. We all get paid to play many different types of gigs. However, in my last private lesson with Buster, in the two hours with which we played and worked on Jazz, he never mentioned any of those projects. His points, as I see them, are generally very focused on the aesthetics and truths of Jazz music. I apologize for name-dropping, but I think this makes my point.

As per your mention of Lincoln Center, my personal opinion of Wynton and his minions is that they are much like a Jazz nursery school. So you seem to be a little off que there. Perhaps you're not reading me.

Duke Ellington said, "it don't mean a thing."

Mr. Jazzy, I am not trying to disrespect Malachai Thompson or Lee Konitz. If you want my opinion, Malachai is an okay avant garde trumpet player, and Lee Konitz swings like a plate of cold spaghetti. But I didn't really know we were discussing that. There are all sorts of musicians on the fringes of this music. Some of them unfortuantely bought their instruments on the way to the gig. However, they became famous because someone said their name enough times.

I have but one response to your triple-my-list statement; if you wanted to learn about the ideology of America and the meaningfulness of the office of President, would you be better served to ask George Washington or Bill Clinton? I'm not a rocket scientist, but I think this one is pretty simple.

[jazzypaul]

That post was so inane, I have no idea what to even say to it. You slam your fellow musicians who are in the trenches with you. You seem to think you have a lock on all of the players that matter. You talk about how Buster Williams gave you a two hour lesson and talked about the blues and swing. Yes, he probably did -- talk about the things that are necessary for a beginner to hear. Your head would still be in a haze if he started talking about Mwandishi. Not to mention, you probably started spouting off the way you spout off in here, and he was just trying to make the best of the lesson.

The funny part of this is -- and look throughout the history of the music and you will see it -- that whenever a musician couldn't play a certain style, that style sucked. Pops couldn't play Be-Bop and called it Chinese music (although I did see a hip version of him and Diz busting through Ool-Ya-Koo). Maynard Ferguson couldn't hang with Ornette and complained about Ornette's intonation. Ornette couldn't play straight and complained that the straight players were all tied to the past. Milford Graves can't play the funk, and says that playing straight time in 4 is bad for the heart (seriously). And now Champjams can't get through anything but a blues and everything else isn't legitimate. You want to talk about the history of the music, go ahead man. But you're tied to that history, and the only people that have made the kinds of statements that you've made have been the cats that couldn't hang. Diz never talked shit about jazz. Herbie never talked shit about jazz. Bird never talked shit about jazz. Gene Ammons never talked shit about jazz. You talk shit about jazz. Just like all of the swing cats at the jam sessions that complain when someone calls off Ornithology. Crazy, ain't it?

[Pharaohrock]

" Pharoah, your examples of Jazz musicians who have done some strange gigs, or recorded some bad records, has very little meaning to me - as it probably has very little meaning to them. "

Mwandishi was just a strange gig huh?? Oh shiiiiittt, you have absolutely no perspective whatsoever teenie. "AS IT PROBABLY HAS VERY LITTLE MEANING TO THEM"= why don't you ask them teenie?? Ask Buster if that wasn't one of the greatest bands he's ever been associated with. Ask Buster why he continues to play in that vein of music today, working with Wallace Roney's electric band. Ask him, and be sure to mention what you really think of such music TEENIE, I dare you.


"if you wanted to learn about the ideology of America and the meaningfulness of the office of President, would you be better served to ask George Washington or Bill Clinton? I'm not a rocket scientist, but I think this one is pretty simple."

This statement reveals a lot about the way you think. Black and white, everything so cut and dried, and make sure to compare apples with oranges.

I won't even get into your dis of Lincoln Center. I'm not a fan, but I respect the musicianship and commitment to excellence there and they certainly are adequate blues/swing musicians. At this point however you've gone into full teenie mode where you burn as many bridges as possible just to prove you are really Nietzche's overman after all.....ready to CONQUER jazz and burn all the heretics at the stake who believe anything other than the essentials of blues and swing.


(Now do yourself and everyone here a favor and get a little maturity and perspective before you subject people to your misinformed, ignorant-ass tirades, teenie.)

[champjams]

OK boys, on this Mwandishi thing - Buster Williams' recorded output probably has about 95% or more straight down the road Jazz. And 5% of whatever this other thing is that y'all are talking about. So, it's irrelevant to try to make any further point on this subject.

Secondly, Buster says one of the greatets bands he was ever in was Sphere. Not Mwandishi. However, he also says that every gig he gets paid for is a great gig. So why don't you boys pull your heads out and have some lively intelligent debate.

The reason we are even talking about Buster Wiliams is because of his legacy in a particular genre of playing. So don't force me to educate you on this type of minutia.

Mr. Jazzie -
BTW, all those players that you remarked on that didn't say anything about Jazz, have said plenty about Jazz. How would you know what they said? You've admitted you've never spoken to any of them. I have.

Oh...BTW for both of you - remember what I said about the name calling....you've lost again.

[Pharaohrock]

He told you ONE of the greatest bands he played with was Sphere, and I believe that.....be clear on what he did not tell you though. He did not tell you that Mwandishi wasn't ALSO one of the greatest bands he played with. Your attempts to brush logic aside don't go unnoticed.

"So, it's irrelevant to try to make any further point on this subject."

Just do us all a favor and ask Buster WHY he CHOOSES to play with Wallace Roney and with Lenny White in an electrified situation??? WHY??? Coz he needs the money?? Don't think so. Ask and ye shall learn. It's about being a wholesome, curious musician, something which you evidently have no clue about at your ripe age.

[champjams]

I have asked. I'm telling you. You should ask before you start speaking for him. My point to you and Jazzie is : ask a Jazz musician. They have phones. Ask them. You ask Buster that question, I have.

What is this Mwandishi?

[Pharaohrock]

What is this Mwandishi?

Don't they have books and periodicals in Oklahoma?? Of course they do. You've got no excuse for your criminal lack of awareness of many musicians.....K Garrett, Shorter, et al.

Get to the library fast son. You need information.

[champjams]

You still haven't told me what it is. I asked in sincerity.

BTW, all we have in Oklahoma is steers and queers. Most people just call me cowgirl.

[Pharaohrock]

And I'll tell you in sincerity, there is an OVERABUNDANCE of information on jazz, both on the web and in your local bookstores or libraries. You could find out all about Mwandishi with a simple Google search...

[champjams]

Do you not know what it is? You're talking about it. Just tell me what it is.

[Pharaohrock]

No I don't know. YOu got me buddy. I was just posing.....teeheehee, gosh I wish I coulda gotten away with it.

MWANDISHI was a seminal jazz fusion band led by Herbie Hancock in the early to mid-70s that featured Eddie Henderson, Julian Priesteri and Bennie Maupin on horns, your hero Buster Williams on bass, and "Jabali" Billy Hart on drums...(where the tune "Jabali" comes from on Herbie's classic Rockit album.)

[champjams]

Well, it sounds like all good Jazz musicians. Was it good music, or just CONfusion?

[clifton]

Once upon a time this thread was about stylism vs. sound improvisation. I was planning to say to Pharoahrock that I disagreed with his basic thesis. Pharoah, you should know by now (I hope) that I seriously respect your opinion, but what I hear in the best jazz musicians is an individual sound and very deep improvising. If you're implying that a unique sound somehow precludes meaningful improvising, I've never heard that as an either/or proposition. And IMHO Hank Mobley was deep. Is it just me or did Junior Cook, Tina Brooks, George Coleman, and now Eric Alexander perhaps adapt some of Mobley's approach to their own playing? Light but full sound, hip harmonies, no grandstanding. Re Kenny Garrett: I think he's the best and most important alto player to come along in the past twenty years. Those that disagree, I hope you can state your view with specifics and without belligerence. Even better, listen to Garrett's "Pursuance" and "Songbook" CD's before you reply. Garrett has a powerful, unique style and he's directly dealing with the innovations of Ornette Coleman. Oh yeah, I've seen him live, too, and not only is he seriously creative, he swings like mad. Now that's both stylism and sound improvisation.

[champjams]

I totally agree with you on the topic of sound vs. style. However I do not agree with your statements about Kenny Garrett. I think Kenny is a good alto player, but he's not all that. What about Donald Harrison? There are alot of good young alto players. As this relates to Ornette Coleman: give me a break. Ornette has a weak sound and is a remedial improviser at best, having to make up his own rules. Kenny sounds like he's coming alot more from Cannonball and Coltrane, to me.

[clifton]

champjams: what instrument do you play? I played sax for over 25 years and I can assure you that Ornette Coleman actually has a very strong sound. His control of all registers is excellent and his control of semitones is extraordinary. His innovations are many, and they're important. Tell you what: I'm on the East Coast and it's pretty late right now (can't sleep, physical pain from my disability sucks at this moment.) But don't dismiss Ornette out-of-hand. I think I make a strong case for his importance. Let me know and I'll give it my best shot as soon as I'm feeling a little better. For what it's worth, my all-time favorite alto players are: Charlie Parker, Johnny Hodges, Ornette Coleman, Benny Carter, Jackie McLean, Sonny Criss, Sonny Stitt, Cannonball Adderly, Paul Desmond, Art Pepper. That's ten. Who are your favorite alto players? Hey, lists beat the hell out of arguing. Keep an open mind. You may surprise yourself. And like I said on another thread, there's nothing wrong with courtesy either.

[champjams]

Well, I play piano and trumpet. My fav alto players:
Charlie Parker
Sonny Stitt
Lou Donaldson
Frank Morgan
Johnny Hodges
Cannonball
Jimmy Ford

[jazzypaul]

Originally posted by champjams
Mr. Jazzie -
BTW, all those players that you remarked on that didn't say anything about Jazz, have said plenty about Jazz. How would you know what they said? You've admitted you've never spoken to any of them. I have.

God, I hate this part of the conversation, but you're forcing me into it, so, okay...

You talked to Pops? I wanna crack at your ouija board.

You talked to Herbie? Wow, because when I talked about him, he said wonderful things, and we talked about everything from music to the travails of the Chicago Public School system. And we sang the Hyde Park High theme song. So this wasn't a dry conversation about what isn't jazz, instead, it was a conversation that truly encompassed what jazz is all about -- joy, diversity, swinging, emotional engagement. I hope your conversation was that deep.

If you talked to Diz, you were 6 years old at the absolute latest. Hope you gleaned a lot from that one. Unless John Edwards helped facilitate it

If you talked with Maynard, have at it. He never impressed me, and I fully understand which circles this makes me a heathen in. Sorry.

If you talked to Ornette, I want a transcript of the conversation. That cat is whacked. I got a chance to tell him just how much his playing has meant to me. That was a truly special moment in my life.

Milford Graves would have no time for you. This I know.

I believe everyone else I mentioned would be dead. But since you're so hung up on all of the jazz musicians I've talked to...

Ben Dixon (early 60's Blue Note drummer -- along with Blakey, one of my first influences) and I talked at a jam session, and it was a fruitful conversation which I will never forget.

Idris Muhammed. One of the truly great drummers of our music. Got a chance to sit down with him, and again, a great human being, and someone beautiful enough to realize the greatness of handing down knowledge.

Von Freeman. I've been lucky to get to spend a fair amount of time with Von, and he never passes up an opportunity to pass along a little knowledge.

Jackie McLean. There's no way you'd actually have anything nice to say about Jackie, he's simply too good. But anyway, Jackie and I talked for a good hour before his gig, and I had a great time chewing the fat with him.

Do you really need me to keep going? Don't talk about the jazz musicians I haven't talked to or don't know. It's offensive to think that I've been listening to this music since you were 3 years old, and you dare try to tell me what I have or haven't seen, and what I know or don't know. If you don't want to be personally attacked, don't do the attacking.


Wouldn't it be really funny if Coypu and Champjams turned out to be one in the same?

[champjams]

That is a really impressive post. I am sure all of those people really enjoyed being with you and talking to you. You are such a stereotype, that it is pitiful. There are white boys, a dime a dozen, like you all over the country. You're like a cliche. If you ever had gotten to talk to Dizzy, all he would have said to you was, "why don't you know how to play your bass drum?"

I will not compete in this pissing contest with you. I refuse to exploit those Jazz musicians who are kind enough to share their music and lives with me.

[jazzypaul]

It's clarification time here on the All About Jazz Forums, and today, our guest is Champjams...world reknowned blues specialist and jazz historian. Known the forum over for having spoken to every jazz musician who ever lived and for having the final say so on who is and isn't jazz. So, Champjams, lets find out what you really meant...

I will not compete in this pissing contest with you. I refuse to exploit those Jazz musicians who are kind enough to share their music and lives with me.

What he/she really meant...although I have said time and time again that I know everyone who ever played the music, and try to belittle everyone in the thread, either I haven't talked to any of them unless I've paid them to talk to me, or they all took one look at me and told me to take my jive ass home and listen to some Eddie Harris and Miles Davis.

Thank you Champjams...let's take a look at something else that you said...

You are such a stereotype, that it is pitiful. There are white boys, a dime a dozen, like you all over the country. You're like a cliche. If you ever had gotten to talk to Dizzy, all he would have said to you was, "why don't you know how to play your bass drum?"

What he/she really meant...I am 18, and I play in the style of 65 year olds. This is made more poignant by the fact that I lack their humility, their sense of class or the dignity that they worked so hard to achieve. When I see these other cats all talking about their Dave Douglas or their Kenny Garrett or their Brad Mehldau, it just makes me mad, because I don't have their chops, their flow, or their effortlessness. I try so hard to just play the blues!! What happened to the days when a guy could just play blues and be respected for it? (cue weeping...now)

As we hand champjams a tissue, and we all pat him/her on the back, we here at AAJ wish to console you in this time of pain for you. We realize how hard it must be to be an 18 year old relic, clinging to the old jam session mentality. Seeing all of those players with their fresh ideas, and not being able to do it yourself can be a rough thing. Don't worry champjams, we understand. And despite the fact that you are about as lame as anyone could ever possibly be, we still find you adorable much in the same way we found Charlie Babbit adorable in Rain Man.

[andreimatorin]

i think that's enough... right? can't some moderator just lock this thread or something?

[jazzypaul]

Locking the thread doesn't stop people from commenting in different threads though.

[clifton]

champjams: you were so anxious to flame jazzypaul that you stated Dizzy would bust jp's playing. I am old enough to have talked with Diz. Come to think of it, I have talked to Diz. Dizzy Gillespie made it an essential focus of his life to encourage, support, and teach young musicians. If someone sounded good, he'd say so. If someone needed to learn, Dizzy wouldn't attack. He'd teach. Dizzy Gillespie had genuine warmth, grace, and humility. You may not be aware of this, but to imply Birks would bust on any musician is disrespectful to Dizzy. champjams, you may indeed be a fine musician, but flaming people on a website isn't going to get you to New York. I hope you're good enough to hold your own in a jam session, but please listen: I've been there. It ain't easy. As good as you may be, like all teenagers, you have a lot to learn, and life will teach you, whether you like it or not. I hope you'll get used to the idea. champ, this is not intended as a flame. I hope you can see that.

[champjams]

Hey Clif, I talked to Dizzy too. And I know that Dizzy was all about helping young Jazz musicians, that is exactly why he would have told Jazzie to learn to play his bass drum.

As for you Jazzie -
Thank you very much for that glowing introduction. I appreciated each word of it. Do you truly think Dizzy would have liked Dave Douglas? In addition, do you think anything that is different or off-center is somehow something good? "You can put your trousers on backwards, but that doesn't make it progressive." Different is not always better, it is sometimes not even valid.

BTW, I didn't happen to see you at Clark Terry's jam session he had on Saturday....I thought that was odd, knowing how close y'all are.

[jazzypaul]

Champjams, if you talked to Diz, then your story doesn't add up. He died in 91, you were born in 85. that would have made you 5 or 6. What would you have possibly gotten from that conversation?

As for Diz digging Dave Douglas, he dug Sam Rivers, who is far more outside than Dave has been. He dug Stevie Wonder, played on one of Stevie's records, and had Stevie play on one of the last records he recorded before he died. And don't give me this crap about record company pressure. It's Diz, and no one's gonna mess with him. If Stevie was in the studio, it's because Diz wanted him there. And if Diz is diggin on Sam Rivers and Stevie Wonder, than he's a lot more open minded than you give him credit for.

As for playing my bass drum, baby, I'm on it, always have been. As I've said before, the best way to move forward is to use the tradition as a starting point.

And do I like anything off center? No. Not at all. I like music that is challenging. I like music that says new things, that takes chances, that is willing to move forward, that is willing to basically be what jazz was in its heyday: a mixture of popular music, the blues and the swing rhythm. Diz did it, Miles did it, Lee Morgan did it, Freddie Hubbard did it, Wynton Kelly did it, Jimmy Smith did. Let's do it, champjams, let's play modern jazz.

But don't think for a second that I don't listen to it all from Pops and Jeep to Dave Douglas and Ethan Iverson. I know this music, and I love this music.

I might not have been at Clark's jam session, but you weren't anywhere near the Green Mill either.

[Pharaohrock]

I think Champjams is lying about a lot of this stuff. "Talked to Dizzy" indeed....

[champjams]

..."The Green Mill?"

Non-Absolute Jazzie, You're quite the mathematician. On the subject of Sam Rivers, if you ever heard Sam Rivers with Dizzy you would know that there was no avante garde in the room. What's with this Stevie Wonder stuff? He's irrelevant. Sonny Rollins played with the Rolling Stones. Does that make them Jazz too? This has no relationship to whether or not Dizzy would have dug Dave Douglas - who's the latest flava of the month.

If you're interested in how close I was to Clark's session on Saturday - why don't you just call Clark up and ask him.

[jazzypaul]

Champ...it is truly cool that you make it out to jam sessions with the greats. I applaud you for your efforts, and they truly are noble ones. However, you are so incredibly dense, that if a piece of coal were to be shoved in your nether regions, you'd get a diamond back within hours. I know that Sam played by the rules playing with Diz, and I know that Diz playing with Stevie doesn't make Stevie a jazz musician (although a favorite anecdote that I've heard states that Stevie can and does play some mean jazz piano -- which I wouldn't doubt for a second. Only a moron would.). It DOES go to prove though, that yes, Diz's ears were far more open than you give him credit for, and that he probably WOULD dig Dave. Dave's conception encompasses the entirety of the jazz tradition. Which you don't hear only because you don't want to.

[Pharaohrock]

Champ, let me say once and for all that you're acting like a truly dumb motherfucker. You have no clue about half the shit of which you speak and yet you consistently find a way to let your arrogance run ahead of your ignorance.

Please do yourself and us at the forum a favor and stop your ranting. It's great you're having this mind-blowing epiphany that jazz is only about blues and swing and everything else is "irrelevant", but you're using this epiphany to try and tear shit down rather than let it speak for itself, and that ain't cool. You're throwing your weight around, acting the part of the lunchroom bully, and you're disgracing the very points you'd like to advocate in the process.

Learn to make an argument without alienating everybody in the process. You can make an AFFIRMATIVE argument in favor of something without trying to attack the things that SUPPOSEDLY stand in the way of that which you advocate. Or is that the problem after all?- are you convinced, in Clifton's idea, that blues and swing are somehow endangered by cats like Dave Douglas or Steve Coleman who are taking the music beyond the fundementals?? They're not undermining shit. It's only your insecurity talking that causes you to believe they would be.

[champjams]

Pharaoh -
The name calling shows that you have lost the debate. Therefore, I will not acknowledge the rest of your post. Also, $5 fine. If all you can do is call names, why don't you go to a rock board?

Non-Absolute Jazzie -
If you had ever known Dizzy, you would have known that what was wide open was his pocketbook - looking to be filled with money. If you want to be open to the music of Stevie Wonder, Dave Douglas, and Death Metal - then why don't you just go and play that music.

Not only does Dave Douglas not endanger the truth, he is irrelevant to Jazz. Some of the reasons being: He is not about Jazz; he is using the idea of Jazz to market whatever his flavor of the month is.

When Wynton surfaced in the Blakey Band in the early 80's, the Jazz world took notice of this young man and just knew he was going to be something great. And they're still waiting for it to happen..... He and Dave Douglas could both trade 4's on any tune, but they would most likely wear out the chromatic scale.

[jazzypaul]

If you had ever known Dizzy, you would have known that what was wide open was his pocketbook - looking to be filled with money. If you want to be open to the music of Stevie Wonder, Dave Douglas, and Death Metal - then why don't you just go and play that music.

I'm still trying to figure out how tight a 6 year old would have gotten with Diz. Answer that one question for me, please champ.

As for your little quip about being open...Freddie Hubbard wanted to encapsulate it all, and said as much in print. Eddie Harris showed open adoration for the world outside of jazz, and brought those influences back home, and Miles booked studio time with Hendrix, played on stage with Santana, and recorded with Prince, as well as calling Prince the next Ellington, in his autobiography nonetheless (I don't agree with that last one, but Miles, one of the masters, felt the need to make that known. You said it yourself, we're supposed to learn from the masters, right? Should I not follow in their footsteps? Or should I only follow in their footsteps as long as you agree with those steps?

Not only does Dave Douglas not endanger the truth, he is irrelevant to Jazz. Some of the reasons being: He is not about Jazz; he is using the idea of Jazz to market whatever his flavor of the month is.

So to be searching is anathema to jazz? Since you like to quote so much champ, I will try to remember this tidbit I heard from one of Britain's greatest jazz drummers, Bill Bruford...

"If things are a mess, play jazz. If you're trying to figure out what it's all about, play jazz. If you're scared, or you can't bring yourself to change, hell, play with a rock band, God knows they're conservative, but if you're looking, look to jazz..."

Dave is searching. I wish I could search and have a fully formed tone, an improvisational concept that keeps everyone interested and on their toes and be able to say that I've played swinging music that ranges from the avant-garde to Klezmer music, from Mary Lou Williams to electronica, and back again. According to Bill Bruford, that makes him jazz. I know Bruford swings, and I know Bruford is consistantly amazing. Are you?

When Wynton surfaced in the Blakey Band in the early 80's, the Jazz world took notice of this young man and just knew he was going to be something great. And they're still waiting for it to happen..... He and Dave Douglas could both trade 4's on any tune, but they would most likely wear out the chromatic scale.

Actually, the sad part is, it happened already, and then he decided to play nothing but old school revival boy. His debut and Black Codes from the Underground are considered masterworks for a reason. Only guy I've ever heard start off brilliant and turn shitty.

[clifton]

Back to Birks: Sorry JP, Diz died in 1993, not '91. The champ still would have been but a mere child of 7 when she met the Great Man. As to the accusation Dizzy was some sort of sell-out, that's libelous. Diz himself admitted he enjoyed pop music. He also said, "my integrity is unimpeachable". Insulting Diz is really hard to forgive, but I'll try. As to Sam Rivers, I saw Diz in concert with Sam The Man. Dizzy let Rivers go outside. I was there. As to Dave Douglas, what purpose is served by insulting him? Since I saw him live last year, I can attest that he plays the blues, swings like mad, and provides comic repartee with the audience, so he entertains as well. I believe Dave to be one of the greatest trumpeters in jazz history. chamj, you're entitled to your opinion, but will you please listen to "Soul On Soul" and "The Infinite"? If, after that, you still don't like Dave, please give specifics, musician to musician.

[PiousBionicus]

Originally posted by champjams
Hey Clif, I talked to Dizzy too. And I know that Dizzy was all about helping young Jazz musicians, that is exactly why he would have told Jazzie to learn to play his bass drum.
Now it's funny you should say that, I am actually related to Dizzy and I was with him a few days before he passed away, and one of the things he said to me was "Never let anyone tell you that your style is wrong, and also some styles of jazz don't require the use of your bass drum as much as others but that certainly doesn't mean that you don't know how to."

If I were you, I'd stop trying to argue as your arguement seems to have fallen flat - I can't see that you even have an arguement. You are getting hammered, I think you should admit that you're wrong and come out of this with some dignity.