Composers / Arrangers Thread???

[Phil Kelly]

Why not have a thread where anyone interested in putting notes out there for others to play ( whether by computer, pencil and scorepad, or smoke signals ) can discuss projects, ask questions, etc.

anyone for this ??


:D :D :D :D

[Finger Poppin']

I can go for this.

[Phil Kelly]

Well FP ..

that's two of us .. ( is there an echo in this room ?) :confused:


one would assume from your sig that you are a bass player ( possibly of the funk persuasion ) ?

In my career, I'd like to have a buck for every 3/6 horn funk and R&B chart I've done .. I always enjoyed the bag ..( taught me every trick i nthe book for writing 16th note licks! ) :D

[JSngry]

Phil, I have a really off the wall question, but a serious one -

A friend of mine's dad sings in a barbershop quartet, one of the REALLY good ones that compete nationally. They use natural rather than even temperment, and supposedly they can hit a chord in such a way that a fifth note, an overtone, pops out on top through the mechanics of physics. It's like a fifth voice is singing. You ever heard this kind of thing out of a vocal group, barbershop or otherwise?

Now - have you ever heard of anybody doing this with instruments - using tuning and voicing to get a sound produced that isn't actually played? Or have you done it yourself? The closest I've heard was the deal w/the "mic tone" on Duke's original "Mood Indigo", but that was supposedly a fluke. Similar, I suppose, but not quite the same thing. I'd think it would be easiest to accomplish this with strings, eh? I really like the idea of a note being heard, and clearly, that nobody actually plays. Kind of a metaphysical thing.

And yes, I'd be into this particular thread. I'm very interested (but only semi-experienced) in writing and arranging of many different genres, and would especially be interested in picking up any knowledge, wisdom, or just plain old useful bullshit ;) you could pass along in the course of a discussion.

[Noj]

I have a small but potent Producer/Arranger section. I arrange my cds chronologically by instrument, and came up with this division just for these three:

Quincy Jones
David Axelrod
James Brown

[Phil Kelly]

Originally posted by JSngry
Phil, I have a really off the wall question, but a serious one -

A friend of mine's dad sings in a barbershop quartet, one of the REALLY good ones that compete nationally. They use natural rather than even temperment, and supposedly they can hit a chord in such a way that a fifth note, an overtone, pops out on top through the mechanics of physics. It's like a fifth voice is singing. You ever heard this kind of thing out of a vocal group, barbershop or otherwise?

Now - have you ever heard of anybody doing this with instruments - using tuning and voicing to get a sound produced that isn't actually played? Or have you done it yourself? The closest I've heard was the deal w/the "mic tone" on Duke's original "Mood Indigo", but that was supposedly a fluke. Similar, I suppose, but not quite the same thing. I'd think it would be easiest to accomplish this with strings, eh? I really like the idea of a note being heard, and clearly, that nobody actually plays. Kind of a metaphysical thing.

And yes, I'd be into this particular thread. I'm very interested (but only semi-experienced) in writing and arranging of many different genres, and would especially be interested in picking up any knowledge, wisdom, or just plain old useful bullshit ;) you could pass along in the course of a discussion.


JS:

What your BBshop Qtet friend is alluding to is one of the interesting features of the overtone series called a "combination tone" ..its kinda complex to really get into here, but essentially it involves the sounding of a tone ( say bass clef C ..roughly 256 vps as a "fundamental" .. since all tones are composed of overtones in accending intervals ( Fundamental 1, 2 is a weaker tone 8va up, 3 is a 5th , 4 a maor 3rd, etc on up ..)

Now , when you combine two tones, and the tambour is right ( as in voices ) the combination of the fundamentals of the two notes will interact at their higher overtones ..and in some cases, the sum of the frequencies will generate a "combination tone" ..

this is essentially the same phenomena that occurs in Tibetian Monks chanting log low notes ..if you listen on a good system , you WILL "hear" other intervals being generated. Instrumentally, the same thing can occur. ( the prime example I can recall os the German Bone player Albert Mangelsdorff who used to play a tone, hum one, and produce a combination third tone )

hope that helps ...

[Phil Kelly]

Just Thought I'd UP this sucker to see if I can get anything happening ..

( obviously a slow Friday PM here in the Northwest ...)




:dill: :tanz:


:thewave:

[Jakeweiser]

I love to hear about other people's arranging and composing ideas. I write a lot more then I arrange and really since I finished my degree haven't done much of anything complete arrangement wise except for things for small groups (trio quartet) but really enjoyed writing for a big band although I did find it hard to do... very hard.

[Phil Kelly]

JakeW:

Anything related toJazz Composition is an appropriate subject here as well as big band stuff .. writing for strings, formal questions, discussions, anything that will further understanding of the tools of music ..

( It would be nice if we could avoid the "X rules but Y sucks , etc. " kind of B**********T though...

:dill:

[PsychedelicFuzz]

http://img73.photobucket.com/albums/v222/slystone47/song.gif

[PsychedelicFuzz]

ok here's a little tune I've been kicking around. well, actually it's 3/4 of a tune. My problem is I'm at a loss for what to do with a bridge.

critiques, ideas for a bridge....

and I'll buy an adult beverage for anyone who can tell me where the chord progression is from. there are a few subs, but nothing that would obscure it beyond recognition.

[Phil Kelly]

Interesting:

Bridge idea:

from the A7 ..A/G ..to a region in F major for a bridge ( possibly based on something with a Lydian flavor ..F ..G/F ..F ..G/F ..etc

get back to D with an Emi 11 /A7 turn ..

comment: at the suggested tempo, the top bone seems a bit high for anything but a very good player...

question ..how were you able to post that sample of notation on the BBS?

you got me on where the changes came from ...

[Mixolydian]

Interesting:
question ..how were you able to post that sample of notation on the BBS?

He probably did a screenshot. It's something like ctrl-Print Screen to do a window. get it into ms paint, join the bits. Tell me if there is an easier way.

And it would be great for people to post their compositions here, so other composers can build on them, an musicians can play them. Plus, it is an opportunity for non-composers (like me) to learn something about putting music together.

[JazzRules]

Interesting:

Bridge idea:

from the A7 ..A/G ..to a region in F major for a bridge ( possibly based on something with a Lydian flavor ..F ..G/F ..F ..G/F ..etc

get back to D with an Emi 11 /A7 turn ..

comment: at the suggested tempo, the top bone seems a bit high for anything but a very good player...

question ..how were you able to post that sample of notation on the BBS?

you got me on where the changes came from ...


A7 (think D Maj, mixolydian) modulate to F Maj for bridge then back to D Maj (E dorian) over a ii11 V7.

Sounds alot like something I'd do. And all this time I thought I was "original".
Now I feel like Homer Simpson.

[PsychedelicFuzz]

actually, Sibelius allows you to save a file as .bmp

after that it's just a matter of finding a place to host the picture so you can display it.

Great idea Phil, invaluable advice (as always)...and I guess that makes me a very good player :)

as for the changes, maybe a hint is in order.
What's the most famous...err...ubiquitous, unavoidable classical piece you can think of.

the title of the piece is a misnomer because it's really a chaconne.

[Noj]

I have a small but potent Producer/Arranger section. I arrange my cds chronologically by instrument, and came up with this division just for these three:

Quincy Jones
David Axelrod
James Brown

Hehehe. Ooooold post from me. I was hoping it would spurn some recommendations for other Composers/Arrangers...

Please proceed as you were.

Y'all are talkin' technical. Gaw-lee. :confused2

[Phil Kelly]

actually, Sibelius allows you to save a file as .bmp

snip ...

as for the changes, maybe a hint is in order.
What's the most famous...err...ubiquitous, unavoidable classical piece you can think of.




Well thats one up for Sibelius ..the only alternative file available to Finale is an etf file ( at least that I can find ..)

however, I didn't think you could attach anything here from your hard drive ..I thought only stuff off the web with a URL ..

Arrrgh ..are you referring to the ...Pachel ...b ...e..l

howitzer ????


:dill: :tanz:

[PsychedelicFuzz]

you're the man, Phil.

kind of clever if I do say so myself~pimp:

[edrowland]

<brains still hurting from trying to play bass clef trombone lines with 47 leger lines on a guitar..., or three handed piano with two right hands below the left hand :-P >

I'll leave the melody to you. The following works with the changes.

Try a rythm changes bridge (played in 3/4), appropriately transposed. F7/F7/B7/B7/E7/E7 etc. J

I just finished splicing a rythm changes bridge into Someday My Prince Will Come 'cause I really like the tune but the A/A2 form seems to get tired after a bit. Haven't had a chance to try it out with a band yet, but I think it works.

[edrowland]

the only alternative file available to Finale is an etf file ( at least that I can find ..):dill: :tanz:

One of the most spectacularly bizzarre pieces of user interface I have ever seen in a software package.

Menu: Tools/Advanced Tools > Graphics

Menu: Graphics/Export Pages...

gives you TIFF export, which can be converted to more civilized formats with external programs. (Using Finale 2003).

[RichardMH]

I have become interested in arranging for the big band I play in, but I'm coming at it with no experience writing for a rhythm section. My present effort starts with a funk/shuffle rhythm and then switches to a more traditional swing for several choruses of solos. Here's my problem: What do I put on the drum part to tell the drummer how the character is changing without actually writing out the rhythm (which I know he finds very annoying since his drumming ability considerably exceeds my drum writing ability). Is "swing" enough or should I break it down in more detail? Also, can anyone point me to resources that might help with problems like this in the future? I have aspirations to publish my arrangements, and I want to avoid notation that is idiosyncratic and hard to understand.

Thanks in advance

Richard

[PsychedelicFuzz]

I was gifted (or cursed) over the past year with professors who constantly harp on formatting

if it's a competent drummer, I'd think "swing" would be enough...that's of course assuming the tempo stays the same. You might want to indicate a 2 or 4 feel.

And I can point you to a veritable fountain of knowledge on the subject...this thread, especially the cat who started it.

[RichardMH]

As usual it appears the less said the better. Here's a related question for the guitar. I want him to comp with a funk shuffle style during that section. Do I need to indicate an appropriate rhythm explicitly, or can I put 4 slashes per bar and a notation "funk shuffle?" It seems to me from listening to the guitar on most funk tunes there is considerable variation from bar to bar, and I don't want to suggest that a mechanical repeated pattern will work.

Thanks

[edrowland]

Usually it's sufficient just to add the note, although (laying my ignorance on the table), I'm not entirely sure that I know exactly what a funk shuffle is. If it's a very specific term, then it might be a good idea to add a few sample bars, and an "etc..." If you didn't add the example, I could make a pretty reasonable guess as to what a funk shuffle is, and you would get something funky, and shuffly (speaking from personal ignorance :-P ). Truthfully, if I saw that note, I'd ask my drummer. Notes like "Bossa", "Swing", "Funk", ("Shuffle" even), are the norm. I've just never run across a "Funk Shuffle" note before personally.

If you write it all out, that's what you'll get, beat for beat (in the one big band I've played in, anyway, less so in a jazz combo). My assumption would be that if you wrote it out, you expect me to play it exactly as written (presumably because it interacts precisely with something written in one of the horn sections).

[Phil Kelly]

AS PFuzz has said previously, you're better off using english to communicate with the drummer, saving notation to indicate either band hits you want caught( above the staff in cue size notation ), or actual figures or places you DON'T want him to play.

The one thing that confused me in your question was the distinction between "funk/shuffle" and "trad. swing" ...normally, to me this would indicate ( quarter note remaining equal in both cases ), a basic rhythmic stress on the 3 of each bar in the funk section ( what is also referred to as "big 2 shuffle feel" ) and an even 4/4 straight swing fell on the other section ..

if this is is the case, again, English serves the purpose: use "Big 2 shuffle" for the funk ..you can also use use slash notation with an accent over the 3 ..

..and "swing" for the straight ahead section..

the same suggestions would suffice for the guitar as well..

What is sometimes done on record dates ( where time is at a premium and master rhythm parts are employed ) is a suggested rhythm feel is actually carefully written out ..either in rythmic slash notation or actual notes or a combo of both for one cycle of a pattern ..say 2 to 4 bars ..and then the part says " cont.simile" and goes to simplified slash notation for the remainder of the chart ......... ( except for breaks and hits of course ...)

[RichardMH]

The "funk" rhythm I have in mind does have a consistent emphasis on beat 3, so maybe big 2 shuffle is the way to put it. Frankly, my problem coming at arranging from the standpoint of having listened to a lot of music but played only in limited circumstances I can hear ideas that I don't know how to describe apart from conventional notation, which can seem too confining to the rhythm section (it is also a fact that our drummer is excellent, and his interpretation of an idea is likely to be better than anything I could explicitly write out). I'm liking the idea of putting down a couple of bars of the basic rhythm and a note that the rest is similar using either repeats or slashes.

Thanks for all the thoughts.

Richard

[Phil Kelly]

I'm liking the idea of putting down a couple of bars of the basic rhythm and a note that the rest is similar using either repeats or slashes.

Thanks for all the thoughts.

Richard


Richard:

Note that whenever I used this technique, I never expected the players ( studio pros in this case ) to play anything I wrote note for note ..it was intended as a "sorta like" illustration ..

Aother thing: if you're dealing with excellent sight readers, you can save a whole lotta time writing funk charts in condensed meter in 16th notes ..I've even discovered that good college bands can get thru that kind of notation these days ( providing the director is familiar with the genre ..)

also: you can write hip -hop type charts in this fashion using sixteenths by just marking the frot : " hip -hop feel ..[4 16ths ] = [6 16th sextuplets..with rests on the 2nd and 5th 16th ] "

[RichardMH]

the punishment for helping is, of course, getting asked for more help. Here's another area I could use some help with. The band I play in is associated with a church and the players range from very good (our last drummer left in the spring to join Maynard Ferguson's band) to pretty mediocre (me). We've got the best guys playing lead, of course, but I'd like some ideas on writing for ensemble that make the music interesting without too much technical difficulty. Sight reading is the most important issue because everyone in the band can play technically difficult music with a little practice, but we often don't get the chance as individuals or an ensemble to do so.

Thanks in advance

[Phil Kelly]

the punishment for helping is, of course, getting asked for more help. Here's another area I could use some help with. The band I play in is associated with a church and the players range from very good (our last drummer left in the spring to join Maynard Ferguson's band) to pretty mediocre (me). We've got the best guys playing lead, of course, but I'd like some ideas on writing for ensemble that make the music interesting without too much technical difficulty. Sight reading is the most important issue because everyone in the band can play technically difficult music with a little practice, but we often don't get the chance as individuals or an ensemble to do so.

Thanks in advance


You don't say what the size of your ensemble is, but I recommend to anyone interested in jazz writing to get the Sammy Nestico Book ( if they dont already have it ) and the Berklee book on large ensemble writing. Bothe of these cover many of the basic types of ensemble voicings from smaller horn groups ( 2/2/4/3 ) up to standard (4/4/5/4/ )stage bands.

In addition, the Nestico book covers writng for strings very well.


:thewave:

[RichardMH]

Thanks, I'm writing for a standard 4/4/5/4 stage band and for a saxophone ensemble of between 6 and 8 horns. I've pretty well got the ensemble arranging under control because I play sax and understand the instrument, but it sounds like the Nestico and Berklee books would be a real help.

Richard Hunt

[Phil Kelly]

Richard:

Start with Sammys book " Complete Arranger"

It really spells out all the standard type of brass and reed voicings very clearly ..

If you have questions after getting the book ..I'm quite familiar with the content ..I use it often in coaching youn writers ..

good luck!

[RichardMH]

I only wish I were young instead of merely ignorant. . .

Richard

[PsychedelicFuzz]

just wanted to say that I started going to another forum with a whole section devoted to composing and arranging...they were exactly no help at all and I find myself fielding some very basic questions and getting no help at all with my own stuff...

so cheers everyone!

and Phil, you mentioned the Berklee and Nestico books. My professor, before he deserted me mentioned another book, but I can't remember the name of it.

He said it's got detailed analysis of charts by Thad Jones, Nestico, and I think Bob Mintzer and Neil Slater, with complete layouts of voicings they use etc...ring any bells?

[Phil Kelly]

Hi PFz:

just curious ..what forum was that ?:

The book you're looking for is:

INSIDE THE SCORE by Rayburn Wright ( Kendor Music ' 82 )

It has a thorough analysis of one of Sammys' charts and two each by Thad and Brookmeyer ..increasing in complexity as it goes. It is an essential book to anyone wanting to learn about large ensemble writing. I had this book for about 10 years and still find it quite interesting in its method of analysis.

The other one I think I mentioned earlier was the Don Sebesky Book
( get the revised edition )


:tanz: :thewave:

[RichardMH]

I'm working on a tune that revolves around a C blues, or more accurately, has C7 / Gm7 alternating as the tonal foundation. I've gotten to the part where the soloist is given 2 bars to lead into a 16 bar solo. The solo section consists mostly alternating C7 Gm7. I'm looking for a cool substitution for a regular II V7 for that 2 bar intro in hopes that it will suggest something interesting to the soloist. Any suggestions?

Richard Hunt

[Phil Kelly]

I'm working on a tune that revolves around a C blues, or more accurately, has C7 / Gm7 alternating as the tonal foundation. I've gotten to the part where the soloist is given 2 bars to lead into a 16 bar solo. The solo section consists mostly alternating C7 Gm7. I'm looking for a cool substitution for a regular II V7 for that 2 bar intro in hopes that it will suggest something interesting to the soloist. Any suggestions?

Richard Hunt


Hmmm ..without seeing the total harmonic structure of the head, it seems as though with the changes you've cited ,you've got a "So What" Mixolydian vibe happening .. in which case , I think that factor is gonna influence the soloist more than a clever turnaround ..but again, I dont have enough of a picture of what you're doing to make a coherent suggestion ..



:dill: :dill: :thewave:

[RichardMH]

The tune isn't the least bit "So What" like, but I wondered why the underlying chords sounded so familiar to me. And you're right, when it opens for solos the spirit of Miles is likely to hovering over every note. I'm a little disappointed that I didn't create a more original foundation, but I guess imitating really good writers is a start.

Richard

[Phil Kelly]

again ,not knowing the tempo or melody ..

and assuming its a 24 bar double blues form:

heres a possible harmonic scheme with a couple twists:

( bar per chord )

C7 Gmi7 X 4 ( Cmixo ..8 bars )

F7 Cmi7 X2 ( Fmixo ..4 bars )

C7..............top note G

Cb9/13........ " Ab

Bb 9/13........... " Bb

A7 /9#............. " C ( B# )

Ebmi7/ Ab ........." Db

D7 /9#/5b........ " Ab

Dmi7 /G............ " C

Db. 9# /5b......... " G

C7 Gmi 7X2 or X4 ( cmixo ..4 /8 bars etc )


too bad I cant post a Finale file ...




:thewave:

[RichardMH]

It's a little late for me to work through this now, but it looks really helpful. I'll let you know how it fits when I get back into town (I have this day job as a lawyer that interferes with my music).

Richard


:thewave:[/QUOTE]

[RichardMH]

Your chords, though cool, weren't what really helped me. It was your reminder that I need to recall what the melody is before launching into any cool sounding progression. Here's what I (painfully) figured out:

Melody is God Our Help In Ages Past in C, but it is C mixolydian so the B's are (mostly) flat.

I started the composition with a bass line that has octave C's in the first bar and a little motif based on Bb in the second bar. My not very methodical method of arranging begins with humming the tune over and over while I walk my dog until something interesting pops up. This bass line was what popped up.

Now the fact is that the first four melody notes (excluding a pickup) are E A G and C. They really outline a C6 chord, but I wasn't paying attention to chords, only to the individual harmony lines, which I constructed based on 4ths because I liked the open sound. This is how I managed to write 32 bars of music that I think sounds pretty cool while still only vaguely aware of the underlying harmonic structure.

After your notes mentioning the problem of not knowing the melody, I went back and did a little self analysis. What I thought was a C7/Gm7 tradeoff really isn't; it is really a C6 to Bb 6/9 or C6 to Gmin11. The first four bars of the melody fit very nicely over C6 - Bb 6/9 - C6 - Gmin7. The next four bars of melody start with C A D B (or Bb) and once I focused on those notes I got F9 to Cmin7 to F9, which of course is more or less the second four bars of any 12 bar blues. Because the melody has 4 2 bar phrases I'm going with a 16 solo section. Slowing the melody down to half notes I ended up with this progression:

C6 | Bb 6/9 | C6 | Gmin11 | C6 | Bb 6/9 | Gsus7 | Bb7 | F9 | Cmin7 | F9 | Fdim7 | D7 | G9 | C6 | C6.

Its not so much like So What, but it has the advantage, I think, that the soloist can use the various elements of the melody more easily over it. Now, of course, I have to add backs and think of an exit strategy since eventually "open for solos" is going to have to end.

In any case, your response was very helpful in reminding me that I need to focus on the melody and the real harmonic structure. I'm weak on theory, so this doesn't come naturally. I'd lke any comments you have on the tentative end result.

Richard Hunt

[Phil Kelly]

sounds like you have a plan

>>>The next four bars of melody start with C A D B (or Bb) and once I focused on those notes I got F9 to Cmin7 to F9, which of course is more or less the second four bars of any 12 bar blues. <<<<

hmmm ..sounds like the start of "Misterioso" :D



keep me posted :violin




PS: I have a personal aversion to sixth chords ( too Glenn Millerish for my ear ) and usually change such structures to an "add 2" or something ...

[RichardMH]

because I figure that means it is o.k.

But I don't know what to make of your "add 2" comment. Isn't "add 2" equivalent to "add 9?"

BTW, since you've been so helpful I'd like to email you a pdf of the condensed score and see what you think.

Richard

[Phil Kelly]

because I figure that means it is o.k.

But I don't know what to make of your "add 2" comment. Isn't "add 2" equivalent to "add 9?"

BTW, since you've been so helpful I'd like to email you a pdf of the condensed score and see what you think.

Richard



add 2 ..add9 ..same thing ..

sure! fire away with a pdf or jpg ..remember, I have a iMac!

[PsychedelicFuzz]

in that case, Phil, I'll stop all my cursing and trudging through finale and send you a pdf of my "beyond the sea" score

[edrowland]

sounds like you have a plan
PS: I have a personal aversion to sixth chords ( too Glenn Millerish for my ear ) and usually change such structures to an "add 2" or something ...

6/9 is nice too. My personal favorite sub for sixth chords.Just make 'em all 6/9s. Or add 2, or maj13ths. I feel the same way Phil does. There's something really unsettling about a naked sixth. But in practice (speaking as a player, not a composer), I'd take the liberty of reading 6 as either 6/9 or maj13 anyway.

Theres is something to be said for leaving them as 6s at the beginning in that it makes it slightly more obvious that there's a C pivot tone throught the first 7 changes. Dunno if composers think that way. I do.

[Vihar]

I love sus2's, though they're too "open" sometimes, don't fit everywhere.

[Phil Kelly]

I love sus2's, though they're too "open" sometimes, don't fit everywhere.


they wwork great in first inversion situations ( i.e. spelling up from bottom: E ,C, D, G = C2/E

a group of us used to call that the "David Foster " chord ..since he seemed so fond of it ..



:thewave:

[PsychedelicFuzz]

Here's a thought!

I met someone on another board who was looking for some jazz practice materials, so I helped him out. I ended up sharing some things with him via a yahoo briefcase for which we both had the password.

So here's the idea. Why not have someone set up a yahoo account, then pm the password to all the interested parties so we can upload scores and get feedback from everyone else?

thoughts?

[PsychedelicFuzz]

Oh, and for my latest compositional conundrum:

I'm playing around with a tune and I want to modulate up a 1/2 step for the second A section, but I don't want it to be too abrupt. Anyone have any thoughts on pivot chords, turnarounds or some kind of transitional sequence?

[Phil Kelly]

Oh, and for my latest compositional conundrum:

I'm playing around with a tune and I want to modulate up a 1/2 step for the second A section, but I don't want it to be too abrupt. Anyone have any thoughts on pivot chords, turnarounds or some kind of transitional sequence?

again, without hearing the tune, but assuming your departing key is C:

hows about: Cmaj /Bb7add 11#..13/Eb mi 11 /D9#5b ....to Db maj

or:

Cma / Ami 7 / F#mi11/ B7 add 9b ..5b / Emaj /Amaj /Ebmi11/Ab bass / D9#5b

...to Db maj ..


:tanz: :dill:

[Stinkybob]

hey guys, first time ive seen this thread and its a really cool idea, ive just finished my first year on a jazz degree course in the UK, obviously composing is part of the course and in fact i really do enjoy writing then playing the stuff myself.

its all mainly quartet stuff that is kinda...well i dont know how to describe it, nothing to out there anyway, being a sax player and not having to much experience on keys (although im learning) a problem i do find is making really nice flowing voicings for the keys, any tips?

[Phil Kelly]

hey guys, first time ive seen this thread and its a really cool idea, ive just finished my first year on a jazz degree course in the UK, obviously composing is part of the course and in fact i really do enjoy writing then playing the stuff myself.

its all mainly quartet stuff that is kinda...well i dont know how to describe it, nothing to out there anyway, being a sax player and not having to much experience on keys (although im learning) a problem i do find is making really nice flowing voicings for the keys, any tips?

Hi SBob:

Actually, since I'm basically a composer /arranger / retired drummer, I have little in the way of keyboard chops ..you might check out the Mark Levine book: Jazz Theory ..it contains all kinds of easy to play examples of many jazz voicings ..

actually, the basic rules you went thru in legit harmony one still hold true ( excep now you can you can employ any notes that sound good to you as long as they conform in general to that "old stuff" ) like:

use smooth vioce leading ..particularly on inner parts ..
employ common tones where ever available ..etc ..

but NOW ..you can utilize all sorts of parallel voicings ..and bi tonal and cluster voicings etc.

welcome aboard !! :thewave:

[Stinkybob]

cheers phil,

i must admit i do have the mark levine book, although have not studied it properly for a while and must of missed the good bits, however cracking book! has helped out in some tight spots.

im on my home pc at the moment, but when i move back to my own place i would like to perhaps send some stuff and get some opinions about my charts, eventually i hope to majoring in compoisition so naturally i really want to get into the swing of things!

[PsychedelicFuzz]

Mark Levine's Jazz Piano Book is worth checking out,
as is "Voicings for Jazz Keyboard" by the incomparable Frank Mantooth (RIP)

[Phil Kelly]

cheers phil,


im on my home pc at the moment, but when i move back to my own place i would like to perhaps send some stuff and get some opinions about my charts, eventually i hope to majoring in compoisition so naturally i really want to get into the swing of things!

SBob:

Keep in mind I'm on a Mac OS 8.6 ( currently ) and can read Finale 2003 files ..other than that, I usually have some grief trying to open stuff sent from PCs ..( other than Finale, I'm pretty much a computer dummy .)

Also , regarding "keyboard" harmony ..is your goal to be able to acquire the facility to comp for others ..or are you really after the theoretical applications for composition purposes?

[Stinkybob]

thanks phil for the advice i might attach my score to a word file and see how that goes.

as for the piano aspect, it is for the theory purpose really, im really no good to play in gigs, i find it hard enough to play decent jazz on the sax! haha!

[Phil Kelly]

I can tell you now ..a word doc wont work! thats a pc deal and unopenable on a mac ..

if you can do a .jpg or .pdf file , it might work!

[Stinkybob]

bugger.... well not to worry i will see what i can do, big thanks by the way!

[Scottone]

hey, gang---

finally back online in my pad, after what seems like an eternity (9 weeks). these kinda cyberhangs just don't work in net cafes on a money clock...

great thread, Philip; thanks for giving us musical gearheads (and us wannabe gearheads) and chance to work out together.

as for our friend with his up-a-half dilemma, I usually go for the simple (coming from a singer perspective, what else?):
Cma9/Ab9/Am7/D7b9... to Db

by the way, Phil, I'm trying to work with Finale, after 30 years of sharpening pencils (and erasers) with a razor blade. would you be willing to share some help with a neophyte? off the board, if need be.
I'm on both Yahoo and MSN messengers.

let's keep it coming, folks! and please keep sharing info about how to post our tunes to share; I know a lotta writers would be down for it.


pre obba no mett, du rebb rebb rebba no day mu day...

Scotty

[Stinkybob]

it seems like all you guys are on macs, and i hate to say it, but i seem to be a...... sibelius bitch!!!! what can i do! hahaha

[Phil Kelly]

SBob:

Nothing wrong with Sibelius ..it's just most of the folks I deal with started with Finale ..so ..tada ..they got me going on it ..

Hi ScottT

hey ..I sure aint a Finale maven ..( more of a fumbler .. I still cant print anything for shit ) , but after 38 years of pencils and scorepads, I'm sold ..but I'll be glad to pass on anything I might be able to help with ..PM me with your e-mail ..

I'm about to bite the bullet and start in with 2004 ..as soon as I either decide whether to bite the bullet and buy a new Mac w/ 10.3 Panther ..or just spent about $750 turning my old iMac into a "pimp ride " adding a whole pile of memory and an accellerator ..

still ..that plasma display on the new iMac is beckoning to me :D

>>Cma9/Ab9/Am7/D7b9... to Db

hmm ..interesting twist, putting the Ab9 early on ..then implying a II/V9b that resloves to the tritone sub of G !

:thewave:

[PsychedelicFuzz]

I feel your pain, Sbob. I too am a prisoner of sibelius, and an old version of it at that!

but we have Scorch and can save as .bmp's
:tongue2:

[Phil Kelly]

Finale 2004 has a feature that allows you to tune the file into an audio file and burn CDs withing the program ..

the improvment in the internal sound fonts in 2004 is what brought me to burp up the upgrade money ..the brass and string sounds are improved 100% for ruff demos for clients ...


:yeahthat:

[PsychedelicFuzz]

hmmmm, that may just be a good enough reason to switch.

[JazzyMoses]

Hey,

Alright, I'm thinking I'm probably one of the youngest here (16), but I've been playing jazz for a couple of years and I really want to start getting into writing my own stuff. The only problem is, for the last few years I've been bluffing my way through chord theory. I mean, I know enough to comp behind a soloist or to solo myself (to an extent) (I play piano and trumpet), but once we get into any of this tritone sub, mixolydian mode kind of stuff... I'm kind of lost. I was wondering if there are any books or websites or anything that I could really start to get some of this stuff down. Maybe something that starts pretty basic and progressively gets more complicated. Thanks.

Kyle

[Phil Kelly]

I was wondering if there are any books or websites or anything that I could really start to get some of this stuff down. Maybe something that starts pretty basic and progressively gets more complicated. Thanks.

Kyle

JM:

try: JAZZ THEORY by Mark Levine ..easy to read, and easy to play examples ..and it coveres most everything you mentioned and more!





:yeahthat:

[JazzyMoses]

JM:

try: JAZZ THEORY by Mark Levine ..easy to read, and easy to play examples ..and it coveres most everything you mentioned and more!


Thanks. I appreciate the suggestion. I'll try to find a copy in one of the libraries around here.

Kyle

[Jakeweiser]

(pats his copy of Jazz Theory)

Great book. To bad I got a messed up copy where an entire chapter repeats itself inplace of the chapter about Sequence. Unfortunately I didn't realize it until I made like so many notes and pen marks, coffee stains all over it and couldn't replace it.

Oh, and as soon as I figure out how to get a jpg or bmp file of someof my charts, I'll post for suggestions. i started something new tonight that is working around some things I have been very curious about (compound meter, interesting subs etc.)

[edrowland]

Thanks. I appreciate the suggestion. I'll try to find a copy in one of the libraries around here.


(Pats his well worn copy of Jazz Theory).

You really need to get this book. It's probably not the kind of book one would find in a library. And it will take you a long time to get through it. Buy it if you can. It's worth every penny. If you're at all serious about learning jazz you really need this book. There are others like it, but Levine is by far the best and the easiest to learn from.

Convince your mum and dad to buy it for you if you have to.

I'm ashamed to admit how many music books I have, so I won't. The single most valuable of all of them is Levine's Jazz theory. It's jam packed full of things you absolutely need to know to play jazz well.

Did I mention that you really need to get this book?

[RichardMH]

I'm using (with a good deal of unhappiness) a program called Overture and want to upgrade to either Sibelius or Finale. I live in a PC world, and my main concerns are:

1) accuracy of parts extraction and ability to generate nice looking music. I'm writing for a big band and various instrumental ensembles and hate editing the individual parts.

2) ability to interpret articulations and dynamics in playback

3) stability

Friends recommend Sibelius, but I wonder if either program has any clear advantages or disadvantages.

Thanks for any advice

Richard Hunt

[Phil Kelly]

Richard:

I think what you have here is sort of a beta/VHS situation : Both are Excellent platforms and have many common features as well as some differences. Both will print excellent quality parts .

However, as a Finale person ( of just over 18 months ), I can only comment upon that platform, and am still primariliy dealing with the score inputting functions ( allowing my Finale guru/ copyist to do most of the part extractions ..because it does involve some complexities ) I have learned you have to be very careful and proofread both the score and parts, because mechanical errors can occur due to some unforseen glitch between the score and the extractions.

as far as interpretation of dynamics: keep in mind, neither program is a sequencer ..however Finale 2004 has included a feature called "human playback" which is supposed to help in these areas. I'll let you know in 6 months about that feature :D

Also, as I mentioned earlier, there was a pretty good article in Keyboard several months ago comparing the platforms features ..you might want to check out the Keyboard archives and print it out.

Both programs are quite stable ..Finale automatically genrates a backup file at an interval you select ..also save your work manually frequently ..to be doubly safe ..

hope dat helps!


:tanz: :dill: :tanz:

[PsychedelicFuzz]

A few words on sibelius...

it does interpret dynamics and articulations, but with both you have to bear in mind that they are notation programs, and there are several worthwhile programs out there with audio and midi capabilities for sequencing things meant to be heard...the caveat is that the notation for the midi tracks will be limited.

Glad to know we have the same difficulties Phil.

The extraction process is realtively painless, but each part has to be proofread, as symbols and markings may move around a little.

I find sibelius to be really intuitive as far as most things are concerned. My only major gripe is that it won't support a DC, DS or coda. Notating one is no problem but if you want it to play back correctly, it takes all kinds of hiding things and midi command wizardry.

I use sibelius mostly, only because I learned it first and know it better. I have finale as well, and I have to say both are worthy contenders.

[PsychedelicFuzz]

oh, and sibelius also backs up your work for you.

Every time you save, a copy of the file is placed in a backup scores folder.

[RichardMH]

The coda, DC, etc. thing bothers me.

I need a notation tool, but I find it very helpful to play back my scores. My keyboard skills aren't up to playing what I write, (especially when there are six or seven voices) and sometimes the voice leading sounds different up to tempo. It's also much easier for me to find mistakes by ear.

My problems with Overture are the extensive editing needed for extracted parts and the often wacky interaction of dynamic markings, articulations and midi playback. That and the frequent crashes. Oh, and the inability to specify a default directory.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

Richard

[PsychedelicFuzz]

the coda thing is in sibelius 1.x and 2.x. Can't speak for sibelius 3.

the bulk of my entry is drag and drop, as opposed to a midi keyboard. Sibelius is fast and intuitive, and the coda thing is my only real complaint. Like I said, notating it properly is no problem, but to actually hear it right requires that you copy and paste the stuff to the end and do it the long way or else go through and hide repeats and write in commands etc.

[RichardMH]

I suspect I'm going to have to try them out to see what is best.

Richard

[Phil Kelly]

The coda, DC, etc. thing bothers me.

I need a notation tool, but I find it very helpful to play back my scores. My keyboard skills aren't up to playing what I write, (especially when there are six or seven voices) and sometimes the voice leading sounds different up to tempo. It's also much easier for me to find mistakes by ear.

My problems with Overture are the extensive editing needed for extracted parts and the often wacky interaction of dynamic markings, articulations and midi playback. That and the frequent crashes. Oh, and the inability to specify a default directory.

Anyway, thanks for the input.

Richard


The D.S. and Coda thing crops up in Finale as well ..if you want to hear it make the jumps. ( I find it much easier to paste in the repeated material and do away with codas ..and the players prefer it as well ..no flipping back! )

as for playback, I always make the default "ignore repeats on playback " to avoid unwanted MIDI loops ..

as for voice leading, I find it faster to do that after exploding the sketch into score form ..then I can change/cross parts quite easily wherever necessary by simple drag and drop edits ..

[RichardMH]

I'd like to hear more about moving from a sketch to the score. What's the best way to organize a sketch? I mean for example, use one stave for treble and one for bass winds, combine piano guitar & bass, or different staves for different ensembles of instruments? It seems like whatever I start with I find that at a later point in the piece when the ensemble changes or I introduce some counterpoint the sketch becomes unwieldy. Tips from a pro would be much appreciated.

Richard Hunt

[Phil Kelly]

I'd like to hear more about moving from a sketch to the score. What's the best way to organize a sketch? I mean for example, use one stave for treble and one for bass winds, combine piano guitar & bass, or different staves for different ensembles of instruments? It seems like whatever I start with I find that at a later point in the piece when the ensemble changes or I introduce some counterpoint the sketch becomes unwieldy. Tips from a pro would be much appreciated.

Richard Hunt

Richard:

For a big band, I use a 6 line sketch ( trble and bass for saxes, Treble and bass for tpts and bones ,and T&B for changes and bassline. For most stuff, I can then use the "explode" function of Finale to blow all the sections up into full score ( with a bit of drag/drop editing ..

for contrapuntal stuff ( like splitting sections into lines ,i.e. tpts /flugels playing different parts ) I use the layering feature ..

for more complex scores , I've devised a set of larger sketch layouts that accomodate strings, f hns, and wws. ..

[RichardMH]

Another reason for me to switch software. Overture allows the creation of different voices in a stave, but nothing to explode them. It is also extremely awkward to write counterpoint in a single stave because it soon become cluttered with rests, stems, and other items related to the different voices. I assume that the "layer" function helps take care of this.

Thanks

Richard Hunt

[Phil Kelly]

Another reason for me to switch software. Overture allows the creation of different voices in a stave, but nothing to explode them. It is also extremely awkward to write counterpoint in a single stave because it soon become cluttered with rests, stems, and other items related to the different voices. I assume that the "layer" function helps take care of this.

Thanks

Richard Hunt

the 'explode " function is the biggest time saver to come down the pike for writing shout choruses..

The layer function allows you to create up to four differing rhythmic and pitch lines per staff ..( it has its own little peculiarities to deal with ..like keeping track of what layer is responding )

I seldom exceed two layers for any length of time

[RichardMH]

I would appreciate guidance/feedback about what you expect, or players expect, when they see different dynamic markings. In my band the default dynamic (i.e., what is played if there isn't an explicit marking) seems to be forte, and anything softer has be very explicit. However, I think most of the players believe their default is mf, and so they respond to f by playing a little louder. It's also my impression that about half the individual players (i.e., the amateurs like me) don't have a consistent idea what f or mf or p means for them, although they are good at playing in balance with their section and others. That means to me that the dynamic markings are mostly to guide the director, who in turn has to get the players to the right place. Finally, I'm not seeing much practical ability to distinguish anything softer than pp or louder than ff, and additional p's and f's seem more like a message emphasizing that the dynamics matter than a genuinely different volume.

Thoughts anyone?

[Phil Kelly]

I agree with most everything you've noted ..

Most bands that are playing for fun and made up of part time/hobbyist players tend to be exhuberant ..hence the default volume level is much higher than that of a pro recording band that is used to the fact that lighter playing will record cleaner, have an overall better tone ..and save their chops by only opening up when really required. ( Actually the dynamic span of a good recording band is less that that of the same guys playing a live gig ..)

One thing I always mention when running something down with a kicks band ( after the initial reading issues have been overcome and they've gained some confidence ), is to tell them to play no louder than they can and still hear ALL the parts in their section ..AS WELL AS the lead parts in the other sections ..

I do agree with limiting the dynamics to pp/ff ..and let house tops and SFZs do the work of extra loud hits ..

[PsychedelicFuzz]

I think you guys are right on the money...and what I'm about to say is probably going to be so vague and open-ended that it is absolutely no help to anyone.

so here goes nothing.

I think that once you really get down to it, no one has a firm concept of f or pp or mezzo-whatever, because in the end it's all relative.

A lone flute playing pianissimo is softer than a string section playing pp, which is going to be softer than a brass choir playing pp.

fortissimo is different in a dry hall vs a really live one, or a small one and a big one.

Phil mentioned the difference in recording vs live

FF means different things in Mozart and Mahler...so in the end it's all relative.

I don't think anyone really has a firm concept when you get down to it, because consciously or subconsciously we change our ideas in different situations...and I concur with you guys that extra p's and f's and -issimos are superfluous.

[Jakeweiser]

Amen.

I think that in the end your bands dynamics are only as good as your lead players. Especially the Drummer and L. Trumpet since they basically control the band as it is. I think that in rehersal the Director has to make clear what he thinks F or FF means.

For myself whenever I stood infront of the band as opposed to in it FF meant play as loud as you could without sacrificing your tone. But also, like Fuzz said, every room plays in it's own way, a good observation.

Trying to have a preconcieved notion of what a dynamic symbol means might be a good practical concept in rehersal but just like anything in the music world can be changed in the drop of a beat. Just try to think of them in relation to each other.

mf is medium depending on the situation, and they alter volume/dynamics as needed. :guitar:

[Phil Kelly]

One last whack at the dynamics thing:

The span of the available dynamics can be affected by:

the level of the aggregate ensemble ( what we've basically been dealing with )

the dynamics involved in the NUMBER of people playing ..and/or the number and thickness of the voicings being used.

the obvious widest range is from a full tutti FF ..to a single solo instrument playing PP

there are other ways to effect a change in dynamics other than wind pressure level ..number of lines being used, span ( and tonal thickness) of the voicings being employed, etc.

one of the first things I note in many student arrangers early efforts is an over reliance on two or three textures: the unison, the full ensemble tutti and the section 4/5 part soli ..

once they become familiar with some of the possibilities in contral puntal methods (and the ensuing possibilities of doublings available: ( i.e. 2 tpt+ 2 alto/2 tens +2 flugels ,etc ) and such things as semi dissonant thinner 3 part voicings as opposed to tutti consonant voicings, etc. the develop a pallette of techniques that give them more tools to control the overall dynamics with ..


:tanz:

[PiousBionicus]

I'm fairly new to arranging, I've done very little of it but I'm wanting to do more. I've started arranging a very simple piece (the melody is played over a standard 12-bar-blues in C) and I want to add another section to break away from the 12-bar-blues to make it more interesting and also as a marker for finishing solos. I don't really know where to go or what to do with the chords. I don't really know any arranging techniques, so any tips and advice would be great.

[Phil Kelly]

I'm fairly new to arranging, I've done very little of it but I'm wanting to do more. I've started arranging a very simple piece (the melody is played over a standard 12-bar-blues in C) and I want to add another section to break away from the 12-bar-blues to make it more interesting and also as a marker for finishing solos. I don't really know where to go or what to do with the chords. I don't really know any arranging techniques, so any tips and advice would be great.

One solution might be to create a distinctive 4 bar/8bar vamp type figure ( with some sort of repeptitive rhythmic hook ) you could inset between the 12 bar structures ..( the same vamp could serve as an intro ?? )

[PiousBionicus]

Could you suggest some chords to me as I've never arranged more that the melody line before, the pianist sorts out the chords! I have to learn some time!

Thanks, Phil.

[Phil Kelly]

ooops ..gotta fix that straightaway!

trying to arrange with little or minimal knowledge of harmony is sorta like flying an F-18 without the stick ..

do not pass go ..do not collect $200 ..( or the appropriate exchange rate in Euros ) :D

IMMEDIATELY go get a copy of JAZZ HARMONY by Mark Levine and absorb it thoroughly!!

:tanz: :dill: :tanz:

[PiousBionicus]

Damn, I was hoping you weren't going to say that I had to learn things! I wanted to just pick things up as I went along with the least effort possible... apathy has often been my downfall :(

[Phil Kelly]

Sorry , mate ..there IS no free lunch :eek2:


:thewave:

[PsychedelicFuzz]

I posted this topic in the composing/arranging section of another board.....
-----------------------------------------------------
"I was recently having a conversation with a very respected arranger, and one of the pitfalls he pointed out was over-reliance on "basic" textures...solo, brass, saxes, tutti.

So what are some favorite alternative intstrument combinations, how do you use them within the context of the piece, and how do you typically voice them"
-----------------------------------------------------

and much to my amusement, the second response I got in the thread was someone telling me to come here, read this thread, and seek out Phil Kelly.

So how 'bout it, Phil (and everyone else, of course)

[Phil Kelly]

I posted this topic in the composing/arranging section of another board.....
-----------------------------------------------------
"I was recently having a conversation with a very respected arranger, and one of the pitfalls he pointed out was over-reliance on "basic" textures...solo, brass, saxes, tutti.

So what are some favorite alternative intstrument combinations, how do you use them within the context of the piece, and how do you typically voice them"
-----------------------------------------------------

and much to my amusement, the second response I got in the thread was someone telling me to come here, read this thread, and seek out Phil Kelly.

So how 'bout it, Phil (and everyone else, of course)



Well, I dunno who the other arranger was ( or what BBS it came from ..which one was it ?), but I tend to agree with his assessment ..the problem stems from learning to construct the appropriate voicins for the sections and eventually the whole ensemble usually takes precedence over the LINEAR aspects of writing. This leads to an overuse ( IMO ) of thick ripe voicings that while great when used in the appropriate places, tend to pall on ones ears when over done ..

If you beging to construct your charts LINEARALLY, you can begin to color the various lines with tonal mixtures across the lines ..and begin to rely on thinner harmonic support voicings:

One of my favorite combinations ( ripped totally from Bill Holman ,in fact) :

line #1.. ten saxes+ 2 tbns

line#2 alto saxes+ 2 tpts/ flugels

harmonic support : bottom 2 tbns + bari.


there are many variations of the above scheme to help avoid the "sectionitis" problem ..

#1 ..altos+tpts 12

#2 ..tens +floogels 34

harmonic supp : bones

later on , you can get into the more exotic brass w/ mutes + various w/wind combinations ..but keep in mind, many of these effects work ONLY in recording situations, dont translate well to live performances.

( BTW: the Don Sebesky book has a great list of a bunch of these devices.. )

enough for now :tanz: :thewave: :tanz:

[PsychedelicFuzz]

sorry Phil, misqouted you slightly. You mentioned it in passing during our dynamics discussion using the words solo, 4/5 part soli, tutti.

Anyway, when I started the thread in the composing/arranging section of the Online Trombone Journal forum, I got one actual response, and then a post referring me back over here.

[PsychedelicFuzz]

Ok, here's another one for you Phil.

What are the benefits of joining ASCAP?

specifically, would it be in the best interest of a young unestablished composer/arranger to join?

[Phil Kelly]

Ok, here's another one for you Phil.

What are the benefits of joining ASCAP?

specifically, would it be in the best interest of a young unestablished composer/arranger to join?


Hmmm ..I'm not sure how to answer this ..when you get to the point where you're getting a lot of you material published, and/or being broadcast, it may be to your advantage to join ONE of the PROs ( perfoming rights organization ) but I cant specifically recommend ASCAP ( even tho I've been a member for 35 years ) :barf::barf:

I'd suggest you check out BMI and SESAC as well ..

also, go to this link,sign in and ask this question ..then stand back! ( this is a list of professional and fledgeling film composers )

owner-fmpro-digest@vlists.net /

[JazzyMoses]

I have a question regarding what the best way to notate piano and guitar comping in a big band format. Idealy, the two musicians playing these instruments should be able to listen to each other, while playing off chord sheets and create comping that compliments the rest of the band as opposed to fighting against each other and having just a mass of sound. My question is more directed to those who would be arranging music for a band of amatuer musicians where the rhythm section has not yet perfected this skill (ie junior bands, high school bands etc). What is the best way to arrange the comping for these two instruments in this setting? Should you physically write out the rhythms (and possibly chord inversions), having both play the same thing? Or perhaps have the two instruments comp in seperate sections of the song? What are your thoughts?

[Phil Kelly]

I have a question regarding what the best way to notate piano and guitar comping in a big band format. Idealy, the two musicians playing these instruments should be able to listen to each other, while playing off chord sheets and create comping that compliments the rest of the band as opposed to fighting against each other and having just a mass of sound. My question is more directed to those who would be arranging music for a band of amatuer musicians where the rhythm section has not yet perfected this skill (ie junior bands, high school bands etc). What is the best way to arrange the comping for these two instruments in this setting? Should you physically write out the rhythms (and possibly chord inversions), having both play the same thing? Or perhaps have the two instruments comp in seperate sections of the song? What are your thoughts?


What I usually do for publication is :

1. usually notate the changes with slash marks and chord symbols ( including the occasional rhythmic slashes if I want something caught, ..or rests where necessary) The bass player usually gets a written line and changes ..iif I have a specific voicing I want the chordal instruments to agree on, I write out the voicings in actual notes. I do not "wrte out " comping patterns ..the leader educator has to ride herd on them about the appropriate things to play ..stressing in all cases;"

Less is more"

:clap:

The esception is on R&B and jazz funk things where I WILL writeout in detail a four or eight bar section ( including a drum part ) to get them in the ballpark of a feel ..then I go on as detailed above ..

hope that helps!! :thewave:

[marktaylor]

add 2 ..add9 ..same thing ..


hey phil! i love this thread. great to see people talking about getting their ideas out into the world so others can mess them up in rehearsal! :D

i just had to relate a little story about your comment above re extensions. i used to do some copying for Max Roach from time to time (it was his way of helping me out as a NYC newbie) and in one chart we did (a musican with Amiri Baraka about Bumpy Johnson) he had a chord like Bb6 (or something with a 6th, i don't remember exactly) and when i voiced it for the horns i used a Bb13 chord.

i was told, in no uncertain terms, that if a Bb13 was what was wanted, then he would've written the 7th, 9th and 11th in himself (just quite a bit more colorfully than that as you can imagine) and that it had to do with other extensions you wanted to hear, not register. Yikes! i couldn't walk right for a week! :embarass:

moral is: be careful especially if it's someone else's music you're arranging. some people are very specific when it comes to chord symbols, others aren't.

just my two cents

mt

http://www.mark-taylor.biz
http://www.cdbaby.com/marktaylor

[marktaylor]

SBob:

Nothing wrong with Sibelius ..it's just most of the folks I deal with started with Finale ..so ..tada ..they got me going on it ..

Hi ScottT

hey ..I sure aint a Finale maven ..( more of a fumbler .. I still cant print anything for shit ) , but after 38 years of pencils and scorepads, I'm sold ..but I'll be glad to pass on anything I might be able to help with ..PM me with your e-mail ..

I'm about to bite the bullet and start in with 2004 ..as soon as I either decide whether to bite the bullet and buy a new Mac w/ 10.3 Panther ..or just spent about $750 turning my old iMac into a "pimp ride " adding a whole pile of memory and an accellerator ..

still ..that plasma display on the new iMac is beckoning to me :D


i used to use Finale and got to where i could get around it pretty well for the stuff i needed to do at the time. then i got Sibelius and discovered that for banging out leadsheets and simple (meaning anything that's fairly straight-ahead to set up) things, Sibelius was WAAAAY faster for me to get things done on. Finale lets you decide EVERYTHING about how the page looks down to how far the dots are away from the noteheads! Sibelius makes quite a few of those decisions for you (at least as far as i can tell) and when you need to do something new it can be pretty frustrating to figure out what command(s) or menu or whatever to get it done. on the other hand, i don't know how much finale has changed but when i was using it there were thing that would take two or three clicks and a menu or two to do that can be done with one click or a key command in sibelius.

i hear Finale 2004 is much easier in that regard. i've got it around here somewhere - maybe it's time to check it out...again

:shrug:

by the way, if possible i'd go for a new 'puter. i have a old blue&white g3 that i "souped up" with a 1gHz g4 cpu and about a gigabyte of ram. it's great - sort of. it runs way faster and i can use applications that i couldn't before (like softsynths, etc.) but my system is way less stable and i spend a fair amount of time trying to figure out why i just had ANOTHER kernal panic and had to shut the computer off for a couple of hours...

:mad:

before you go the upgrade route (which can be a lot of fun if you're a marginal gearhead like me) check out http://www.xlr8yourmac.com and look up your model and the upgrades you're considering first. there's a TON of info there. another good one is lowendmac.com (i think that's the url) for info on older macs.


mt
http://www.mark-taylor.biz

[Phil Kelly]

hey phil! i love this thread. great to see people talking about getting their ideas out into the world so others can mess them up in rehearsal! :D

i just had to relate a little story about your comment above re extensions. i used to do some copying for Max Roach from time to time (it was his way of helping me out as a NYC newbie) and in one chart we did (a musican with Amiri Baraka about Bumpy Johnson) he had a chord like Bb6 (or something with a 6th, i don't remember exactly) and when i voiced it for the horns i used a Bb13 chord.

i was told, in no uncertain terms, that if a Bb13 was what was wanted, then he would've written the 7th, 9th and 11th in himself (just quite a bit more colorfully than that as you can imagine) and that it had to do with other extensions you wanted to hear, not register. Yikes! i couldn't walk right for a week! :embarass:

moral is: be careful especially if it's someone else's music you're arranging. some people are very specific when it comes to chord symbols, others aren't.

just my two cents

mt

http://www.mark-taylor.biz
http://www.cdbaby.com/marktaylor



Mark:

Second all that ..it's been my experience that musicians are more likely to be chordally specific than are vocalists ( they just want it to sound pretty and not bump into them like a crosstown bus :D )

I just did some string charts for Terry Gibbs' new CD and even though we AGREED to the changes to be used prior to my scoring the stuff, TG STILL made several changes in the studio on a couple turarounds etc that gave Tom Rainier a big time headache trying to accomodate the necessary changes that TG wanted without turning my voiceleadings into spaghetti :tearhair:

( obviously I wasnt at the date ..I'd have just circled the m***********r! )


:tanz::tanz::tanz:

[marktaylor]

Mark:

Second all that ..it's been my experience that musicians are more likely to be chordally specific than are vocalists ( they just want it to sound pretty and not bump into them like a crosstown bus :D )


Amen to that, my brother! :D

[Phil Kelly]

I just reviewd this ..and if I have to say so myself, we got a lotta interesting stuff going here ..

so: UP!!

[codewarrior]

haha, back from the dead. And it's not even Halloween :D

[Phil Kelly]

How droll CW:

Hows about offering some actual content here?

or at least less lame putdowns ? :banana:

[codewarrior]

Twas a joke about the thread's apparent ressurection. Not a putdown! Besides, it functions as another helpful bump. As for content, I'm 'content' with the 7 pages that are already here :D But if we must add to the legacy, perhaps you would care to expound on what you feel are the best methods for learning to arrange stuff for larger ensembles and orchestras :D

[Jakeweiser]

lucky me. I just started a big band arrangement of Anthropology today as sort of a theory check as well as orchestration work out before I start my Masters in August.

if i knew how to post finale files as images I wouldn't have any problem with posting some of my ideas. Maybe I'll see if that's possible tomorrow

[lungfluke]

Jakeweiser,

You can export pages as TIFF images using the graphics tool in Finale...

Tool/Advanced Tools/Graphics

Then go into the graphics drop-down menu and select "export pages", then select your export type (TIFF is good) and resolution. This is how you do it in my old (2001) version of Finale, but I've used 2004 and I think it's pretty much the same...

If you already knew that, and were instead wondering how to actually post images in your message, I have no clue...

[Jakeweiser]

sweet! I use 2002 because i've not been a student since 2003 and did not like 2003's version (personally) so i'm waiting to be a student again (in 2 months) to get a new version with the student price.

I'll try that out when I'm ready to show something

[Phil Kelly]

But if we must add to the legacy, perhaps you would care to expound on what you feel are the best methods for learning to arrange stuff for larger ensembles and orchestras :D

Glad to CW:

1. assuming you know basic jazz harmony, start out by learning to wite good four part harmonizations of tunes ( forget which instruments for the time being ) utilizing close position, drop 2, drop three ,and spread voicings. Get critical of your voice leading. Watch out for the "repeated notes" trap and cross parts when necessary to achieve mobility.

2. Once you've got that going, now, get a good basic book on writing for jazz band ( the Nestico book , the Berklee Book or the Sebesky book. ) Now you learn the ranges ,transpositions ,and idiomatic quirks of each family of instruments. You'll also begin to be exposed to the various available textures of orchestration: unisons, two part writing, contrapuntal writing, sectional and tutti writing.

3. As you progress, you'll want to explore the concept of linear writing which frees up the harmonic palette greatly ( ala Gil Evans or Maria Schneider )

there ..that outta get you started! :tanz:

[codewarrior]

Alright, so lets assume you are familiar with the 4-part writing and the various forms of drop X and omit X, octaves/unisons, harmony in 3rds/6ths, 4ths/5ths, etc. As well as intrument ranges, the dynamic capability and tonal qualities of the various sections of the instruments' ranges, trombone slide position issues, etc. So basically, you have the basic set of tools for arranging.

How do you suggest attempting to bridge the gap between this knowledge and actually being able to implement real pieces for large ensemble, and combine the aforementioned techniques into a cohesive whole for a bigger number of instruments?

Also, are you capable of hearing/discerning most of the individual instruments when you listen to an orchestra arrangement?

[Phil Kelly]

question 1: years of writing, listening, studying, and experience and the will to keep going.

question 2 : yes ..fairly easily usually.

[Jakeweiser]

I have a question about Supersax voicings. It's been a long time since i've tried to write anything and it seems familiar to my memory that they're a great way to write out lines for the sax section.

Just to refresh my mind is it that the Melody line is in Alto 1 and then doubled by the Bari an octave below or 2 octaves? Or am i just wrong about that

[Phil Kelly]

Jake:

Most of the Supersax stuff is basic 4 part close position voicing with as you noted, Bari doubling lead alto.( Occasionally, a drop 2 voicing is employed momentarily to accomodate a leap in the melodic lead ..in these cases, the Bari still doubles the lead, but may momentarily cross the 4th tenor part. )

Lots of the passing notes are harmonized with either chromatic parallel neighboring chords or linking diminished chords.

The most important thing to watch out for is any repeated notes in a part. When it occurs, cross parts for a beat to keep the lines moving horizontally.

:the wave:

[Jakeweiser]

Ok that's what I thought. I was confused about that when I took Big band arraranging at school because my Prof was big on lowest available tension in the voicings and Supersax didn't seem to match that idea if I was using it without backgrounds (say in a soli)

[Phil Kelly]

Ok that's what I thought. I was confused about that when I took Big band arraranging at school because my Prof was big on lowest available tension in the voicings and Supersax didn't seem to match that idea if I was using it without backgrounds (say in a soli)


Hmmm?

"lowest available tensions" ?

What on earth did he mean by that? "Lowest available tensions" in more than intervallic dyads would leave you with only open fourths and fifths ,and at a stretch, triads. Even a dominant seventh has some tension in it.

Was this in a JAZZ arranging course?

[Jakeweiser]

yes it was.

He wanted to make sure for us that we had the root of 5th of the chord as the lowest tone in the voicing and called it Lowest available Tension or LAT as he liked to write all over my drafts heh

[codewarrior]

That sounds pretty un-hip. I like voicing some important notes with 5-note voicings with some extra tension on the bottom or chord tone that isn't in the top 4 voices, whatever it may be (unless it creates some unbearable interval, or one that's too low). I guess he was trying to maintain an academic standard, but that seems pretty stifling in practice.

[Phil Kelly]

yes it was.

He wanted to make sure for us that we had the root of 5th of the chord as the lowest tone in the voicing and called it Lowest available Tension or LOA as he liked to write all over my drafts heh


okay ..lemme get this straight:

He called the "the root of 5th of the chord as the lowest tone in the voicing and called it Lowest available Tension or LOA"

couple questions:

1. what made him think the ROOT of the domanant chord ..was a "tension" ?

2. what planet did he get a degree from?

that is some of the most *OUT* crap I think I've ever heard !

CW has a good point: tension has to occur in the higher voices IN RELATION TO the root and guide tones ( 3 and 7 )

example:

with G, F ,and B spread on the bottom, all kinds of tensions will be effective ..like the major triads Bb Db and E for starters.

[PsychedelicFuzz]

That does sound pretty restrictive.

Seems like that might lead to some odd voice leading, unless we're talking about the lowest note in your voicing being a bass-range instrument. The rule of thumb I learned is that you should (generally) avoid placing anything but the root (or altered bass note) below bass clef middle line D, because your ear will want to hear something that low as a root, so it will just sound strange to stick a #11 or something down there.

That's somewhere in the UNT-Rutherford book but I'm too lazy to dig mine out right now.

[Jakeweiser]

considering that the guy I studied with studied at UNT it would make sense. So that applies to any note below D middle of the staff, gotcha

[huwgprice]

i was taught by a good singing teacher at a conservatoire in france who got the different sections of the choir to sing notes which in turn generated a [unsung] harmonic... it was indeed a wierd experience and definitely real. can't remember what notes we were singing though...

[marktaylor]

Glad to CW:

1. assuming you know basic jazz harmony, start out by learning to wite good four part harmonizations of tunes ( forget which instruments for the time being ) utilizing close position, drop 2, drop three ,and spread voicings. Get critical of your voice leading. Watch out for the "repeated notes" trap and cross parts when necessary to achieve mobility.

2. Once you've got that going, now, get a good basic book on writing for jazz band ( the Nestico book , the Berklee Book or the Sebesky book. ) Now you learn the ranges ,transpositions ,and idiomatic quirks of each family of instruments. You'll also begin to be exposed to the various available textures of orchestration: unisons, two part writing, contrapuntal writing, sectional and tutti writing.

3. As you progress, you'll want to explore the concept of linear writing which frees up the harmonic palette greatly ( ala Gil Evans or Maria Schneider )

there ..that outta get you started! :tanz:

this is great stuff! Timely, too as I'm about to start work on a "suite" for french horn and big band pretty soon here. it's been a while since I did much large ensemble writing and, like anything else, the chops get rusty if not used.

coming here lets me get back into that head again!

MT
http://www.mark-taylor.biz

[PsychedelicFuzz]

i was taught by a good singing teacher at a conservatoire in france who got the different sections of the choir to sing notes which in turn generated a [unsung] harmonic... it was indeed a wierd experience and definitely real. can't remember what notes we were singing though...

I can do a little of this on the trombone. It's an acoustical phenomenon called a combination tone where the overtones of the pitches being played combine to form another note, sometimes more than one. Barbershop quartets do this all the time and it's the basis of the technique for producing multiphonics on a wind instrument.

For instance, if I play Eb in the bass staff and hum middle C, (assuming the two pitches are in tune with each other and properly balanced, an Ab will appear.

Check out trombonists Ray Anderson, Albert Mangelsdorff and Ron Wilkins.

[Phil Kelly]

That does sound pretty restrictive.

Seems like that might lead to some odd voice leading, unless we're talking about the lowest note in your voicing being a bass-range instrument. The rule of thumb I learned is that you should (generally) avoid placing anything but the root (or altered bass note) below bass clef middle line D, because your ear will want to hear something that low as a root, so it will just sound strange to stick a #11 or something down there.

That's somewhere in the UNT-Rutherford book but I'm too lazy to dig mine out right now.

Well, not to disagree with my friend Paris, but:

1. A first inversion chord ( say F add 2 /A ) moving to a root position Bb chord would be perfectly acceptable to my ear.

2. A second inversion chord ( or a dominant pedal ) would be okay over almost any harmony ..as long as it eventually resolved. Same thing with a third inversion chord moving down from the seventh on the bottom ..

What the low note is*percieved* as is in direct relation to the construction of the bass voice and a given pitchs' placement in the line in relation to the harmonies above it.

[PsychedelicFuzz]

Ok guys, here's the situation...

I've got a chart I finished a while ago and would like to get some feedback from everyone but have no place to host it on the web. Anyone who would care to take a look, please reply here or pm me and I'll send it via email.

A little about it to maybe generate some interest:
It's an arrangement of "all blues" for trombone quartet without rhythm section. I played with the time signatures a little, and it has a contrapuntal shout section and a few quotes from Miles and Bill Evans's solos in the original.